760610 - Conversation C - Los Angeles

Conversations by Date, 1976

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

Listen to a 'Nectar Drop' created from this Conversation

760610GC-LOS ANGELES - June 10, 1976 - 72:47 Minutes

Nalinīkaṇṭha: Every month, ten to fifteen new devotees are doing saṅkīrtana.

Prabhupāda: Very good.

Nalinīkaṇṭha: Ten new book distributors in the last month.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa will give all facilities if we are sincerely serving Kṛṣṇa. The government gives all facilities to the government servant. The government gives all facilities to the soldiers. When there is fight, there is scarcity of commodities in the civil life, but there is no scarcity among the soldiers. The first consideration, soldiers. Similarly, those devotees who are fighting against māyā, their facility is first concern. They're fighting, trying to save the people from the onslaught of material energy. That will be explained. What is next verse?

Nalinīkaṇṭha: Tat prayāso na kartavyo yata āyur-vyayaḥ param, na tathā.

Prabhupāda: What is previous verse before that?

Nalinīkaṇṭha: Sukham aindriyakaṁ daityāḥ (SB 7.6.3).

Prabhupāda: We have discussed this.

Nalinīkaṇṭha: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Therefore, next verse?

Nalinīkaṇṭha:

tat-prayāso na kartavyo

yata āyur-vyayaḥ param

na tathā vindate kṣemaṁ

mukunda-caraṇāmbujam

(SB 7.6.4)

"Endeavors merely for sense gratification or material happiness through economic development are not to be performed, for they result only in a loss of time and energy, with no actual profit. If one's endeavors are directed toward Kṛṣṇa consciousness, one can surely attain the spiritual platform of self-realization. There is no such benefit from engaging oneself in economic development."

Prabhupāda: Yes, now just see how people are being misguided. Throughout the whole world, the education is for economic development. And here it is condemned that one should not waste his time for so-called economic development. Now our preaching is here, and who will accept it? They'll call us all crazy fellows. We are thinking they are crazy, they're wasting time for economic development, and they are thinking of us that, "These people are crazy. They are doing nothing, escaping." Escaping, do they not say like that?

Nalinīkaṇṭha: Yes.

Prabhupāda: This is the position. We are following the footprints of Prahlāda Mahārāja. We are following the instruction. There is no need of economic development. Live nature's life. Just like other animals, they have no question of economic development. They do not think of economic development. But still they are having the material facilities—eating, sleeping, sex and defense, there is. But there is no endeavor for economic development. So man, being advanced, why he should be less than the animals? His real business is how to develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness, not economic development. That is condemned here. Dr. Wolfe will not agree with us. (laughs) All right, read the purport.

Nalinīkaṇṭha: "We see materialistic persons busily engaged in economic development all day and all night, trying to increase their material opulence, but even if we suppose that they get some benefit from such endeavors, that does not solve the real problem of their lives. Nor do they know what the real problem of life is. This is due to a lack of spiritual education. Especially in the present age, every man is in darkness, in the bodily conception of life, not knowing anything of the spirit soul and its needs. Misguided by the blind leaders of society, people consider the body to be everything, and they are engaged in trying to keep the body materially comfortable. Such a civilization is condemned because it does not lead humanity toward knowing the real goal of life. People are simply wasting time and the valuable gift of the human form, because a human being who does not cultivate spiritual life but dies like the cats and dogs is degraded in his next life. From human life, such a person is put into the cycle of continuous birth and death. Thus one loses the true benefit of human life, which is to become Kṛṣṇa conscious and solve life's problems."

Prabhupāda: Now discuss on this point amongst yourselves whether it is rightly said or not. If anyone has any objection. Yes?

Dr. Wolfe: Prabhupāda, I remember in Atlanta last year when an Indian Ph.D. came to see you and was sitting at your lotus feet, and he spoke about the problems in India, overpopulation and hunger, and then he said to you, "Swāmījī, you must always realize the realities." And you said to him, "You don't know the reality." And he did not answer one word. He is now always coming to the temple, although he is working with the monkeys on behavior studies. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: So anyone has any objection to this statement?

Nalinīkaṇṭha: I was thinking that Kṛṣṇa also says that aghāyur indriyārāmo moghaṁ pārtha sa jīvati. This is useless, spending your time for sense gratification.

Prabhupāda: Find out this verse, aghāyur indriyārāmo.

Nalinīkaṇṭha:

evaṁ pravartitaṁ cakraṁ

nānuvartayatīha yaḥ

aghāyur indriyārāmo

moghaṁ pārtha sa jīvati

(BG 3.16)

"My dear Arjuna, a man who does not follow this prescribed Vedic system of sacrifice certainly leads a life of sin, for a person delighting only in the senses lives in vain."

Prabhupāda: Purport.

Nalinīkaṇṭha: "The mammonist philosophy, 'Work very hard and enjoy sense gratification,' is condemned herein by the Lord. Therefore for those who want to enjoy this material world, the above-mentioned cycle of performing yajñas is absolutely necessary. One who does not follow such regulations is living a very risky life, being condemned more and more. By nature's law, this human form of life is specifically meant for self-realization, in either of the three ways, namely karma-yoga, jñāna-yoga or bhakti-yoga. There is no necessity of rigidly following the performances of prescribed yajñas for the transcendentalists, who are above vice and virtue; but those who are engaged in sense gratification require purification by the above-mentioned cycle of yajña performances. There are different kinds of activities. Those who are not Kṛṣṇa conscious are certainly engaged in sensory consciousness; therefore they need to execute pious work. The yajña system is planned in such a way that sensory conscious persons may satisfy their desires without becoming entangled in the reaction of sense-gratificatory work. The prosperity of the world depends not on our own efforts but on the background arrangement of the Supreme Lord, directly carried out by the demigods. Therefore, the yajñas are directly aimed at the particular demigod mentioned in the Vedas. Indirectly, it is the practice of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, because when one masters the performance of yajñas, one is sure to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. But if by performing yajñas one does not become Kṛṣṇa conscious, such principles are counted as only moral codes. One should not, therefore, limit his progress only to the point of moral codes, but should transcend them to attain Kṛṣṇa consciousness."

Prabhupāda: Next.

Nalinīkaṇṭha: Go on reading?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Nalinīkaṇṭha:

tato yateta kuśalaḥ

kṣemāya bhavam āśritaḥ

śarīraṁ pauruṣaṁ yāvan

na vipadyeta puṣkalam

(SB 7.6.5)

"Therefore, while in material existence (bhavam āśritaḥ), a person fully competent to distinguish wrong from right must endeavor to achieve the highest goal of life as long as the body is stout and strong and is not embarrassed by dwindling."

(Purport) "As stated by Prahlāda Mahārāja at the beginning of this chapter, kaumāra ācaret prājñaḥ (SB 7.6.1). The word prājña refers to one who is experienced and who can distinguish right from wrong. Such a person should not waste his energy and valuable human lifetime simply working like a cat or a dog to develop his economic condition."

Prabhupāda: Modern education, they cannot understand that this repetition of birth, death, old age and disease is a botheration. They do not understand that. Why they accept it? Accept it . . . they think there is no other way. But if there is a way to stop this, why do they not take it? Hmm? What is the value of this education? They cannot distinguish between right and wrong. Nobody likes death, but the death is there. Nobody likes to become old, but the old age is there. Why they set aside these big problems, and he's proud of scientific advancement of knowledge? What kind of education this is? If they cannot distinguish between right and wrong, then what is the result of this education? Education means one must be able to distinguish between the right and wrong. But they cannot, or even they do know that death is not good, but why they are not trying how to stop death? Where is the advancement? They are very much proud of advancement of science. Where is the advancement? You cannot stop death. You cannot stop old age. You can manufacture advanced medicine, but why don't you stop disease, that "Take this pill, there will be no more disease"? Where is that science? Hmm?

Nalinīkaṇṭha: They say they're working on it.

Prabhupāda: That is another foolishness. Bluffing.

Gopavṛndapāla: Just like we say that Kṛṣṇa consciousness is a gradual process, they say their scientific advancement is also a gradual process.

Prabhupāda: Gradual process, but do they think they will be able to stop death? We are confident that we are going back to home, back to Godhead, Kṛṣṇa. But where is their confidence that they will be able to stop death, old age, disease?

Dr. Wolfe: The newest fad is now that they say that they're trying . . . they've established the fact that there is life after death.

Prabhupāda: There is.

Dr. Wolfe: They try to do this scientifically again.

Prabhupāda: Let them do. Scientifically, there is life after death. That we repeatedly say, that my child's body is dead, it's gone, vanished. I have got a different body. So after death there is life. This is practical. So this Kṛṣṇa says: tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). So similarly, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). This is authoritative statement of God, and practically we see that we get one body after another, but I continue. So where is the objection? So there is life after death. So-called death means annihilation of the body. So if we can stick to that life, that there is no more death, then that is to be sought after. That is intelligence. That is mentioned in the Bhagavad-gītā, that if you simply understand Kṛṣṇa and you become fit to go back to Him, then no more death.

Dr. Wolfe: These people who are investigating into this, into the problem of life after death, are basing their observations on dying people. And there are three or four authors now, especially one woman who is a specialist in the field of dying. She is convinced, firmly convinced, that there is life after death. Her name is Kubler-Ross, and she has written several books on the subject.

Prabhupāda: Where she is? English? English woman?

Dr. Wolfe: She is American, German-American.

Prabhupāda: Oh, she is here in America.

Dr. Wolfe: Yes, she lives here. She has worked in a clinic for many years, and exclusively with dying people.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that . . . one has to come to this conclusion, undoubtedly. And that is education. Her education is now complete, that he (she) has understood, he (she) is trying to explain scientifically that there is life after death. That is complete education. So everyone should try by his education to establish what is already said in the śāstras. That is a fact. When Kṛṣṇa says, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13), one gets another body, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre . . . (BG 2.20). Kṛṣṇa says there cannot be any mistake. So if scientist, philosopher, establishes the statement of Kṛṣṇa by their scientific knowledge, that is real perfect scientific knowledge. And if he wants to defy the statement of Kṛṣṇa, that is māyā. That is not possible. But he's vainlessly trying to do that. But if one by scientific knowledge establishes what Kṛṣṇa says, that is perfection.

idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā

sviṣṭasya sūktasya ca buddhi-dattayoḥ

avicyuto 'rthaḥ kavibhir nirūpito

yad-uttamaśloka-guṇānuvarṇanam

(SB 1.5.22)

That is required. We are publishing one book, Dialectic Spiritualism: Vedic Views of Western Philosophy. We are just going to publish one book, Dialectic Spiritualism. Marx theory is dialectic materialism. (laughs) We are going to establish dialectic spiritualism. Go on.

Nalinīkaṇṭha:

puṁso varṣa-śataṁ hy āyus

tad-ardhaṁ cājitātmanaḥ

niṣphalaṁ yad asau rātryāṁ

śete 'ndhaṁ prāpitas tamaḥ

(SB 7.6.6)

"Every human being has a maximum duration of life of one hundred years, but for one who cannot control his senses, half of those years are completely lost because at night he sleeps twelve hours, being covered by ignorance. Therefore such a person has a lifetime of only fifty years."

Prabhupāda: So sleeping is waste of time. Therefore spiritual advancement means minimizing sleeping. Nidrāhāra-vihārakādi-vijitau. About the Gosvāmīs' life it is said they conquered over nidrā-āhāra. If you eat extraordinarily, then you will sleep also extraordinarily. If you eat frugally, as much minimum required, then you can conquer over sleep. Eating, sleeping. Sleeping depends on eating. Atyāhāra. Atyāhāraḥ prayāsaś ca prajalpo niyamāgrahaḥ (NOI 2). The people in the material world . . . atyāhāra means collecting more than necessity. One, somebody has got millions of dollars; still, he is working hard day and night to increase the bank balance. Why? You have got sufficient money; now you engage your life for spiritual advancement and take little food. God has given you enough. Why you are wasting your time in collecting money and eating more? That is misuse. Therefore Rūpa Gosvāmī says, atyāhāraḥ prayāsaś ca prajalpo niyamāgrahaḥ. Āhāra means eating, and āhāram means collecting. So these are against bhakti principles: collecting more than necessity or eating more than necessity. Atyāhāraḥ prayāsaś ca prajalpo niyamāgrahaḥ. Prayāsa, things which are not done very easily, I have to endeavor very, very hard, that kind of work should be avoided. Atyāhāraḥ prayāsaś ca prajalpaḥ, and talking nonsense. No use. You are talking together for hours, what is the use? Prajalpa, it is called prajalpa. And niyamāgrahaḥ, and, without any result, following the regulative principles—or not following the regulative principles. Niyama-agrahaḥ. Agrahaḥ means not to accept. That is also bad. That is bad, actually. And simply to see the regulative principles without any result, that is also bad. Atyāhāraḥ prayāsaś ca prajalpo niyamāgrahaḥ (NOI 2). Laulyam—greediness; jana-saṅgaś ca—and associating with unwanted men, jana-saṅgaḥ. We should not try to associate with nondevotees; you waste your time talking something. Ṣaḍbhir bhaktir vinaśyati. By these six principles one is loser in the matter of devotional service. Āhāra required. Just like we are reading this Bhāgavatam; it is proper utilization of time. Similarly, if we take one newspaper, some statement of the politics, and talk and argue and waste time, there is no need of such thing. I think in our institution there is no newspaper. That is one advantage. (chuckles) In the Western countries, newspaper is very popular thing, a huge bundle of newspaper. Although he'll not read, the newspaperman supplies huge bundle of newspaper. And wasting of paper, printing, unnecessarily cutting the trees for running on the paper mill. This is sinful activity. They are not reading so many nonsense books and newspapers, but paper is required, there is demand. So paper mill requires cutting of the trees unnecessarily.

Devotee: They say this will be a big problem in the future of this century, a great shortage of trees.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They are creating simply problems. Materialistic way of life means anartha. Therefore Prahlāda Mahārāja says that don't try for all these nonsense things. It is simply killing oneself, or lessening the . . . or making useless the duration of life. What is this? Bhaya. What does it say? You just read. Simply . . .

Nalinīkaṇṭha: Puṁso varṣa-śataṁ hy āyus tad-ardhaṁ cājitātmanaḥ niṣphalaṁ yad asau rātryām (SB 7.6.6).

Prabhupāda: No, before that.

Nalinīkaṇṭha: Tat-prayāso na kartavyo yata āyur-vyayaḥ param, na tathā vindate kṣemaṁ mukunda . . . (SB 7.6.4)

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Āyur-vyayaḥ. Simply spending the duration of life. Just like you have got some bank balance, and if you spend it for useless purposes. Similarly, we have got some bank balance or duration of life balance. Our death begins . . . from the next moment of our birth, death begins. Suppose I'll live hundred years. So I am born; one day passed means one day is reduced from hundred years. The friends come, "How old is your child?" The parents says: "He is three years old." That means three years he has died. Ninety-seven years balance. So if we waste our this balance of life for nothing, that is forbidden. Kevalāyur-vyayaḥ. You utilize the balance for some good purpose. No, we are wasting it. The so-called economic development means we are wasting the balance of our life. This is the philosophy. Read it, na tat, huh?

Nalinīkaṇṭha: Tat-prayāso?

Prabhupāda: Ah, na tat-prayāsaḥ kartavyam. This prayāsa, endeavor for economic development, na kartavyam, don't do it. Here is a revolution against this modern civilization. They are simply after economic development, and here it is condemned. It is condemned that this kind of endeavor is simply wasting the balance of our life. If one is intelligent, he sees that "I have got, say, ten thousand dollars in the bank balance, now I must utilize it properly so that it may not be spent." That is intelligence. Similarly, we have begun our death from the date of birth. Daily, every moment we are . . . our balance is being decreased. So therefore we should be intelligent, that so long the balance is there, let me utilize it properly by which I can be really benefited. So the ideal of my benefit is that I'm suffering in this material condition of life, to stop this conditional life, to get freedom life. That is the aim of life. And that freedom can be achieved only by going back to home, back to Godhead. Not any other way. You cannot get the freedom of life here in this material . . . that is not possible, although you are trying for it. Everyone is trying to . . . (aside) Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja can come in. Yes. So without endeavor for this purpose, if we are simply trying to develop our economic condition, that is . . . what is that? Āyur-vyayaḥ? What is this word?

Nalinīkaṇṭha: Yata āyur-vyayaḥ param.

Prabhupāda: They are simply killing the duration of life. Then go on.

Nalinīkaṇṭha: Na tathā vindate kṣemaṁ mukunda-caraṇāmbujam.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. This is very difficult to understand for the demonic. Prahlāda Mahārāja was instructing among the demons. So for them it was difficult. Still, Prahlāda Mahārāja was trying. The purport is read, this verse?

Nalinīkaṇṭha: Yes. You say that the problem is that there's a lack of spiritual education in their lives.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the defect always, especially in this age. There is no spiritual education. Hmm? Do you think, Dr. Wolfe, there is spiritual education? Is there any in the school, colleges, universities?

Hṛdayānanda: He's saying if there is any real spiritual education in the colleges and schools.

Dr. Wolfe: To produce new sense-gratifiers.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Nalinīkaṇṭha: Ne te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum. They don't know.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ

durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ

andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās

te 'pīśa-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ

(SB 7.5.31)

They do not know what is the aim of life. Therefore there is no spiritual education. They do not know. Read further. You shall always hold classes. Read these books, discuss, try to understand. Then time will be properly utilized. Don't talk useless things. Some engagement. So long you are engaged in service of the Deity, that is very good. Otherwise, you should hold class, read these books, discuss among them. Then the proper utilization of time. Avyartha-kālatvam (CC Madhya 23.18). Advancement of devotional service means always be alert whether a moment is misused. Because you cannot get back even a moment of your life if you pay millions of dollars. Not possible. Nineteen sixty-seven, 10th June, 5 o'clock, you had to do something, and if you have missed, then that 5 o'clock, 10th June, 1960, ah, '76, will never come back, even you pay millions of dollars. So if that moment is improperly passed, then what is more loss than that? So avyartha-kālatvam. We should not let even a moment of our life misused. Avyartha-kālatvam. Nāma-gāne sadā ruciḥ. This is advanced life of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Prītis tad vasati sthāle (CC Madhya 23.18). Attachment for living at places where Kṛṣṇa had His pastimes, like Vṛndāvana, Mathurā, Dvārakā. Prītis tad vasati sthāle. And avyartha-kālatvam (CC Madhya 23.18). These are advanced spiritual consciousness. Go on.

Hṛdayānanda:

mugdhasya bālye kaiśore

krīḍato yāti viṁśatiḥ

jarayā grasta-dehasya

yāty akalpasya viṁśatiḥ

(SB 7.6.7)

"In the tender age of childhood, when everyone is bewildered, one passes ten years. Similarly, in boyhood, engaged in sporting and playing, one passes another ten years. In this way twenty years are wasted. Similarly, in old age, when one is an invalid, unable to perform even material activities, one passes another twenty years wastefully." Purport . . .

Prabhupāda: Just like old man like me, eighty years, suppose another twenty years I may live, but I am invalid, I cannot do any solid work. So twenty years in the beginning as child, as young man, in sporting, jumping, twenty years passed. And last twenty years, simply old man's home, invalid home. So forty years gone out of hundred years. Then?

Hṛdayānanda: "Without Kṛṣṇa consciousness, one wastes twenty years in childhood and boyhood and another twenty years in old age, when one cannot perform any material activities and is full of anxiety about what is to be done by his sons and grandsons and how one's estate should be protected. Half of these years are spent in sleep. Furthermore, one wastes another thirty years sleeping at night during the rest of his life. Thus seventy out of one hundred years are wasted by a person who does not know the aim of life and how to utilize this human form."

durāpūreṇa kāmena

mohena ca balīyasā

śeṣaṁ gṛheṣu saktasya

pramattasyāpayāti hi

(SB 7.6.8)

"One whose mind and senses are uncontrolled becomes increasingly attached to family life because of insatiable lusty desires and very strong illusion. In such a madman's life, the remaining years are also wasted because even during those years he cannot engage himself in devotional service."

Purport: "This is the account of one hundred years of life. Although in this age a lifetime of one hundred years is generally not possible, even if one has one hundred years, the calculation is that fifty years are wasted in sleeping, twenty years in childhood and boyhood and twenty years in invalidity (jarā-vyādhi). This leaves only a few more years. But because of too much attachment to household life, those years are also spent with no purpose, without God consciousness. Therefore, one should be trained to be a perfect brahmacārī in the beginning of life, and then to be perfect in sense control, following the regulative principles, if one becomes a householder. From household life one is ordered to accept vānaprastha life and go to the forest and then accept sannyāsa. That is the perfection of life. From the very beginning of life, those who are ajitendriya, who cannot control their senses, are educated only for sense gratification, as we have seen enough in the Western countries. Thus the entire duration of a life of even one hundred years is wasted and misused, and at the time of death one transmigrates to another body, which may not be human. At the end of one hundred years, one who has not acted as a human being in a life of tapasya (austerity and penance) must certainly be embodied again in a body like those of cats, dogs and hogs. Therefore this life of lusty desires and sense gratification is extremely risky."

Prabhupāda: Now discuss on this point, if anyone has objection.

Hṛdayānanda: Objections?

Prabhupāda: Yes, Dr. Wolfe?

Dr. Wolfe: Do not some physical means come into the keeping the body strong, healthy, so that devotion is possible at all? Because to produce sick people, of course, is not in the Lord's spirit either, I think.

Prabhupāda: No. Our aim is not to create sick people. That is not our aim.

Dr. Wolfe: Swimming, walking is still important, I think.

Prabhupāda: No, we do not say. Neither.

Dr. Wolfe: I miss it in the Movement. I think it should not be made a sport, but it should be made, perhaps, a physical must, under control.

Prabhupāda: No, if you eat more, then you require more exercise to digest unnecessary loading. But if you eat simply, just to keep your body and soul together, you don't require exercise.

Dr. Wolfe: Well . . .

Prabhupāda: Little movement is going on; we are walking. But not this severe type of exercise as surfers and fighting with the sea waves for four hours, five hours, ten hours. (devotees laugh)

Dr. Wolfe: Yea. But Śrīla Prabhupāda, a kṣatriya has to be strong.

Prabhupāda: That is a . . . kṣatriya is . . . generally . . .

Dr. Wolfe: And kṣatriyas have to be there.

Prabhupāda: This is specially meant for the brāhmaṇas, intelligent. Go on.

Hṛdayānanda:

ko gṛheṣu pumān saktam

ātmānam ajitendriyaḥ

sneha-pāśair dṛḍhair baddham

utsaheta vimocitum

(SB 7.6.9)

"What person, too attached to household life due to being unable to control his senses, can liberate himself? An attached householder is bound very strongly by ropes of affection for his family—wife, children and other relatives."

Purport: "Prahlāda Mahārāja's first proposal was kaumāra ācaret prājño dharmān bhāgavatān iha (SB 7.6.1): 'One who is sufficiently intelligent should use the human form of body from the very beginning of life—in other words, from the tender age of childhood—to practice the activities of devotional service, giving up all other engagements.' Dharmān bhāgavatān means the religious principle of reviving our relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead. For this purpose Kṛṣṇa personally advises, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66): 'Give up all other duties and surrender unto Me.' "

"While in the material world we manufacture so many duties in the name of so many isms, but our actual duty is to free ourselves from the cycle of birth, death, old age and disease. For this purpose, one must first be liberated from material bondage, and especially from household life. Household life is actually a kind of license for a materially attached person by which to enjoy sense gratification under regulative principles. Otherwise, there is no need of entering household life. Before entering household life, one should be trained as a brahmacārī, living under the care of the guru, whose place is known as the gurukula. Brahmacārī guru-kule vasan dānto guror hitam (SB 7.12.1). From the very beginning, a brahmacārī is trained to sacrifice everything for the benefit of the guru. A brahmacārī is advised to go begging alms door to door, addressing all women as mother, and whatever he collects goes to the benefit of the guru. In this way he learns how to control his senses and sacrifice everything for the guru. When he is fully trained, if he likes, he is allowed to marry. Thus he is not an ordinary gṛhastha who has learned only how to satisfy his senses. A trained gṛhastha can gradually give up household life and go to the forest to become increasingly enlightened in spiritual life and at last take sannyāsa."

"Prahlāda Mahārāja explained to his father that to be freed from all material anxieties one should go to the forest. Hitvātma-pātaṁ gṛham andha-kūpam. One should give up his household, which is a place for going further and further down into the darkest regions of material existence. The first advice, therefore, is that one must give up household life (gṛham andha-kūpam). However, if one prefers to remain in the dark well of household life because of uncontrolled senses, he becomes increasingly entangled by ropes of affection for his wife, children, servants, house, money and so on. Such a person cannot attain liberation from material bondage. Therefore children should be taught from the very beginning of life to be first-class brahmacārīs. Then it will be possible for them to give up household life in the future."

"To return home, back to Godhead, one must be completely free from material attachment. Therefore, bhakti-yoga means vairāgya-vidyā, the art that can help one develop a distaste for material enjoyment."

vāsudeve bhagavati

bhakti-yogaḥ prayojitaḥ

janayaty āśu vairāgyaṁ

jñānaṁ ca yad ahaitukam

(SB 1.2.7)

"'By rendering devotional service unto the Personality of Godhead, Śrī Kṛṣṇa, one immediately acquires causeless knowledge and detachment from the world.' If one engages in devotional service from the beginning of life, he easily attains vairāgya-vidyā, or asakti, detachment, and becomes jitendriya, the controller of his senses. One who perfectly engages in devotional service is therefore called gosvāmī or svāmī, master of the senses. Unless one is master of the . . . " (break)

Prabhupāda: Now discuss on this point.

Hṛdayānanda: One point you're mentioning, Prabhupāda, is a strong inclination for sense enjoyment is the cause of the material body. So it seems that people are trying to enjoy their senses in order to become happy, but actually they are causing their own suffering.

Prabhupāda: Entanglement. Sat-saṅga chāḍi kainu asate vilāsa te-kāraṇe lāgila ye mora karma-bandha-phāṅsa. This entanglement . . . to repeat birth and death is entanglement. That they do not know. Na te viduḥ (SB 7.5.31). They're obliged to accept this entanglement life. So? Time is up? No. So read another verse.

Hṛdayānanda: Another verse?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Nalinīkaṇṭha: I have a question, if it's all right. This is . . . Prahlāda is instructing his schoolmates, but his schoolmates, I think they would argue, "That's all right, but we are young now; let us enjoy. Then later on in life we shall take up Kṛṣṇa consciousness."

Prabhupāda: And unless you learn . . . just like education is given when one is young, and when one is old enough, he cannot take any education. The education . . . receptive faculty is there when one is young. Otherwise, he cannot take any education. What do you think?

Dr. Wolfe: Prabhupāda, I always thought . . . I always thought: "Later, later, I will. Later, later." But now I'm sixty-eight.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) No, education, everywhere, all over the world, education is given when one is young. That is the time. I think here in America there is adult education?

Hṛdayānanda: Adult? But not so much. Some. That's usually for making more money. Someone has a job, and he wants further training to get a higher-paying job, but not so much for knowledge.

Prabhupāda: So, what is the next verse?

Hṛdayānanda:

ko nv artha-tṛṣṇāṁ visṛjet

prāṇebhyo 'pi ya īpsitaḥ

yaṁ krīṇāty asubhiḥ preṣṭhais

taskaraḥ sevako vaṇik

(SB 7.6.9)

"Money is so dear that one conceives of money as being sweeter than honey. Therefore, who can give up the desire to accumulate money, especially in household life? Thieves, professional servants, soldiers and merchants try to acquire money even . . ."

Prabhupāda: Here is a very nice example, soldiers. They know, "We are going to give up our life." And what for? "Money." (laughs) They are prepared to give up life for money. Money is so sweeter than honey. (laughs) And thieves, they go at night for burglary. He knows that "If I trespass anyone's house, he can kill me immediately." But still he takes the risk for money. That is all explained here. What is the verse?

Hṛdayānanda: "Thieves, professional servants, soldiers and merchants try to acquire money even by risking their very dear lives."

Prabhupāda: Merchants also. Formerly, merchants used to go from one country . . . and now they also go, now. Facility of transport is easier. Formerly, they had to cross the big ocean, Atlantic Ocean, Pacific Ocean, waves, and many of them died. Still, for money, they used to go.

Hṛdayānanda: Still today, Prabhupāda, many . . . for example, many big American merchants are being killed in the foreign countries by the Communists and so on. It's very risky still. Many American merchants are being killed in foreign countries.

Gopavṛndapāla: Many people also, they are collecting money all throughout this life, but they don't use it for their own sense gratification, yet they leave it for their children, and they think in this way, "My children will enjoy, and then all my work was . . . had some value."

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Yes. Where he is going he does not know. He's thinking of his grandchildren. This is called māyā.

Dr. Wolfe: That is also attachment to the material world, because he wants to be thought of.

Prabhupāda: Yes. These are different symptoms of material attachment. He does not know who is the rascal coming as my grandchild, but he is making bank balance for them.

Dr. Wolfe: Yeah. He wants to be remembered.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Sometimes he has no wife; still, he thinks of grandchild.

Gopavṛndapāla: They say that is the goal of life, if I can be remembered by others after I leave.

Prabhupāda: It doesn't matter where he is going. That is māyā.

Dr. Wolfe: I think, Prabhupāda, here the idea comes into "my children, my grandchildren," as if they were his.

Prabhupāda: Ahaṁ mameti (SB 5.5.8). This is in Sanskrit, or, you know, ahaṁ mameti. Aham means "I," and mama means "my." This is the illusion. Ato gṛha-kṣetra-sutāpta-vittair janasya moho 'yam ahaṁ mameti. Gradually . . . first of all, there is attraction, male and female, puṁsaḥ striyā mithunī-bhāvam etam. The whole material world existing on sex attachment. Puṁsaḥ means male, and striyā means female. Their attachment. Even before marriage or unity, the attachment is there. Puṁsaḥ striyā mithunī-bhāvam etaṁ tayor mithaḥ. And when they actually unite, hṛdaya-granthim āhuḥ, the hard knot in the heart, hard knot. Then after unity . . . if, suppose one is married or united, then they want apartment, gṛha, then field. Formerly they used to earn money by producing food from the field. There was no factory. So ato gṛha-kṣetra, then children, then friends, then accumulation of money, ato gṛha-kṣetra-sutāpta-vittaiḥ (SB 5.5.8). With all these things, the conception of "I" and "my" increases, and he becomes entangled.

Dr. Wolfe: Prabhupāda, is it not so that so-called marital love and parental love is possessive?

Prabhupāda: You call it any love, the real idea is how to unite man and woman, that's all. That is the idea. Real, basic principle is how to unite a man and woman. It goes on as friend or husband and wife or this or that. The real purpose is they want to unite. And that unity is for sex. And then both of them become entangled. Gṛha-kṣetra-sutāpta-vittair janasya moho 'yam (SB 5.5.8). This is moha, illusion. What is that explanation?

Hṛdayānanda: Purport: "How money can be dearer than life is indicated in this verse. Thieves may enter the house of a rich man to steal money at the risk of their lives. Because of trespassing they may be killed by guns or attacked by watchdogs, but still they try to commit burglary. Why do they risk their lives? Only to get some money. Similarly, a professional soldier is recruited into the army, and he accepts such service, with the risk of dying on the battlefield, only for the sake of money. In the same way, merchants go from one country to another on boats at the risk of their lives, or they dive into the water . . ."

Prabhupāda: In 1942 I have seen when war was going on, so these Britishers wanted soldiers, so they created artificial famine. The people became in need of money, so they enrolled them as soldiers. I have seen it. There was no other way to get money, to get commodities at higher price. Artificial famine. There was no food grains available, but black market is available. Black market means more price, so they had no money. So to get this money, they enrolled as soldiers. This was Mr. Churchill's policy.

Rādhā-vallabha: That's going on now in America. Previously they had to force men to join the Army because they had such a shortage. Now, because there are so few jobs, it is harder to get into the Army. Even volunteers, there are so many volunteers just to get a job that they have too many practically.

Prabhupāda: Even in Army there is no service? They don't want?

Rādhā-vallabha: Now they want because they can't get a job.

Hṛdayānanda: More selective.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Hṛdayānanda: But the Army is now more selective who they will accept.

Rādhā-vallabha: Previously they had to force thousands; now they are practically having to turn men away because they are joining the Army just to get some money.

Hari-śauri: I used to have a friend that was in the Merchant Navy. He was working on oil tankers. So he would only go on the runs to Vietnam. The oil tankers were always in danger of being blown up, so they had to pay them twice as much as any other job just to simply go to Vietnam, and then he would get a huge bonus as well. So he would only work on those jobs.

Prabhupāda: So the modern civilization, there is no program for peaceful, happy life. Things are becoming more and more problematic. Everywhere. Here our Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja is asking everyone to go to his New Vrindavan. There is no problem. You have seen yesterday pictures of our New Vrindavan. There is no problem. Practically. If you see the picture, you'll see that they have no problem. Is there any problem?

Rādhā-vallabha: Sometimes there is too much milk. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: Huh? That he can send to us. Milk is so nice that it cannot be wasted, even a drop. First of all you get milk, that is the Indian system. So there is a big milk pan, and as soon as the milk is drawn it is put into the pan. The pan is in the fire. So as much as you like, drink milk, children, elderly persons. Then at night, when there is no demand for milk, it is converted into yogurt, not wasted. Whatever balance milk is there is converted into yogurt. Then in daytime also you take yogurt, as much as you like. If it is not all consumed, then it is stored in a pot. Then when that pot is enough stored, then you churn it. Churn it, and you get butter and the, what is called, buttermilk. So again you take buttermilk with cāpāṭi and everything. Not a single drop is lost. Then the butter, you melt it, convert into ghee and store it, it will stay for years. So not a drop of milk can be wasted. And this butter, because in the village they are eating so much milk products, they do not require butter or ghee. Maybe little, so that is stored. They go to the city. The city men they require, especially. Ghee is very important thing in the city. So they purchase. So in exchange of that money, whatever they want, they purchase in the city and come back. But the simply maintaining the cows, their economic problem is solved. Simply maintaining. And to maintain cow there is no difficulty. The boys . . . just like Kṛṣṇa, as boy, was taking the cows, the calves, in the fields. They are grazing here and there, and coming back they're giving milk. Only one attendant required to take them in the pasturing ground and bring them back home. You don't require to give them food even. Simply take care, they give milk, and with milk you make so many preparations. Yes?

Dr. Wolfe: Last year, I drove with Svarūpa Dāmodara through Texas on the way to Atlanta, and I thought so much . . . we watched those thousands and thousands of cattle, only beef cattle, only for slaughtering, not one milk cow anymore. And I was so acutely aware of what I had learned from you.

Prabhupāda: They do not know the civilized way of life.

Dr. Wolfe: Perversion.

Prabhupāda: They are still berbars. Called . . .?

Devotees: Barbarians.

Prabhupāda: Barbarians, ah, barbarians. In the jungle, the barbarians, they do not know how to produce food, how to utilize milk. They can kill animals. That is also not like this, by machine you kill thousands of cows. They did not know this. For their simple eating they might have killed some animal, not particularly cow. Perhaps they were not killing cows because they were getting milk. Other, nonimportant animals. But what is this civilization? I learned that in South Africa, before killing the cows, they take the last drop of milk, and then it is sent to the slaughterhouse. They are so expert that if there is still little milk, take it before her death. Is that civilization, that you are taking milk . . .? So Vedic civilization is as you are drinking milk from the cow, she's your mother. Actually she's mother. But what is this civilization, killing mother? Hmm? Is that civilization? Take from mother whatever she can deliver up to the last drop of milk, and then kill her. Advanced civilization, scientific. Killing scientifically. This is not civilization.

Hari-śauri: And just to emphasize it, they deliberately moved the Indian community next to the slaughterhouse.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari-śauri: Because they know they don't like cow killing.

Devotee: Where?

Hari-śauri: In South Africa.

Prabhupāda: The Indian quarters near their slaughterhouse, and the animals screaming like anything whole night, and they have to hear it. The real purpose is that the Indians may go out.

Dr. Wolfe: Prabhupāda, who does that?

Prabhupāda: In South Africa.

Dr. Wolfe: The government?

Devotee: Yes.

Dr. Wolfe: It's barbarian.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. I was in South Africa in . . . what is that city?

Hṛdayānanda: Johannesburg.

Prabhupāda: Johannesburg. From the downtown, the Indian quarters about ten miles or fifteen miles away. Indian. African, black quarters, they are not allowed even to enter the city. They require a pass. If any black man enters the city without that passport, he will immediately be taken to police. The bus for the black man is different from the white man. I think Indians also, they have got separate bus. But the bus in which the white men travel, the Indians and the black men are not allowed. Gandhi tried to adjust this injustice, but he failed. Then with determination he went to India that, "I must drive away the Englishmen." These South African white men, mostly they are Englishmen and Dutchmen. Originally they are Englishmen and Dutchmen.

Dr. Wolfe: Prabhupāda, the strange thing is that the fiercest racists in South Africa are the Boers, the Afrikaners . . .

Prabhupāda: That is Englishmen . . . Dutchmen, Dutchmen.

Dr. Wolfe: . . . who were put down by the British before, and now they are the worst oppressors themselves.

Prabhupāda: These Dutchmen, Englishmen and Frenchmen were the pioneers of colonization. Spaniards also, Spanish. In America mostly the Englishmen came?

Hṛdayānanda: Yes. English and French.

Prabhupāda: French.

Hṛdayānanda: Mostly English.

Prabhupāda: The Germans were not for colonization.

Dr. Wolfe: They were before World War I. They lost their colonies at the end of World War I. They lost Cameroon and Togo and East Africa. That so many . . . that is where Nairobi is now; Nairobi was German before.

Hṛdayānanda: Not so many colonies, like the others.

Dr. Wolfe: Hmm, they had quite a few, had quite a few.

Prabhupāda: The Englishmen, they have lost their colonies, all.

Hṛdayānanda: Yes. Even now England they can no longer control.

Prabhupāda: Hmm? (laughs)

Hṛdayānanda: They can no longer control England. They are having fights between the labor and management. They cannot control it.

Prabhupāda: Why? What is the difficulty?

Hari-śauri: Communists.

Hṛdayānanda: No, between the laborers and the management. They are having great . . . always strikes, and the British industry is becoming crippled.

Prabhupāda: And there is another problem, Irish problem. The Irish men, they are dropping bombs in London, in daytime. Creating always disturbance.

Gopavṛndapāla: I was in London just recently, and in the airport, where we distribute books, you cannot put your bag of books down because the police will come, hold you, and say: "You have a bomb in your bag." You must always keep it on your shoulder. And there are signs about every fifty feet, saying: "Do not leave luggage unattended," because they are thinking anything which is unattended is a possible bomb.

Prabhupāda: London airport is very congested.

Gopavṛndapāla: Yes, very.

Prabhupāda: Very, very congested. Always thousands and thousands of men. If there is any such bomb explosion . . . life is becoming more and more insecure. The advancement of civilization is no relief for these other problems.

Hṛdayānanda: Prahlāda Mahārāja has said that their solution is bringing more problem.

Prabhupāda: Yes. In order to solve one problem, more problems.

Dr. Wolfe: Prabhupāda, am I right when I say the only solution is a change of consciousness?

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is real solution.

(pause)

Prabhupāda: So we shall now go?

Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Jaya.

Hari-śauri: Someone can distribute that. I'll bring it. (end)