750623 - Morning Walk - Los Angeles

Morning Walks by Date, 1975

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

Listen to a 'Nectar Drop' created from this Morning Walk

750623MW-LOS ANGELES - June 23, 1975 - 74:33 Minutes

(in car)

Brahmānanda: He wants to go to India.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Brahmānanda: They were not participating so much in devotional life. So now he wants to resume his . . .

Prabhupāda: He can go to Māyāpur.

Brahmānanda: Yes. (break)

Prabhupāda: They produce fruit so big, these palm . . . they are palm trees, they are not coconut.

Jayatīrtha: No, they're not coconut palms. Just regular palm trees. They have some kernel or something, palm kernel. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . killed the Gardhabhāsura in the palm forest. The fruit is so tasteful, but the cowherds boy could not enter the forest on account of this demon.

Brahmānanda: Which demon was that?

Jayatīrtha: Dhenukāsura.

Prabhupāda: Dhenuka . . . not Dhenukāsura. Gardhabhāsura. Dhenukāsura also, they come?

Brahmānanda: That was that ass.

Prabhupāda: Ass, ass, yes. (break)

Jayatīrtha: Here there are many date palms, very high producer of dates.

Prabhupāda: Just see. In the desert there are so nice fruit.

Jayatīrtha: (laughs) Topsy-turvy.

Prabhupāda: Dates are so nice, sweet. (break) . . . is so kind.

Brahmānanda: He provides.

(break) (on walk)

Prabhupāda: Where is Bahulāśva? I have read that your program. What is that? College of Vedic Science?

Bahulāśva: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So what is the actual program?

Bahulāśva: That was not completed, Prabhupāda. That's just a description of the courses. Yet we have to add a biography about Your Divine Grace, description of the disciplic succession, the activities of ISKCON and how the college relates to ISKCON. That was simply an explanation of what courses would be given and how they would be structured.

Prabhupāda: That's nice. (break) How it will be conducted? The idea is very nice. Who has analyzed?

Bahulāśva: Who has . . .? Dharmādhyakṣa has done the analytical breakdown.

Prabhupāda: Oh, analysis is done nice, of the study.

Dharmādhyakṣa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, we want your direction on how to actually do it.

Prabhupāda: Actually our . . . that you have already mentioned that, "Example is better than precept." Our whole process is following the example of predecessors, nothing independent. So that principle should be followed. We do not accept any precept who is free from the predecessors. Do you follow?

Bahulāśva: Uh-huh.

Prabhupāda: Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186). This is the secret of devotional service: nothing to do independent. Then it will be all right. (break) . . . the particular, specific qualification of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. How they are doing? They have got so many other institutions. So what is the result? The Graduate Theological Union . . . so I saw so many names. What they are doing?

Dharmādhyakṣa: Well, that's why they want us to join.

Prabhupāda: (chuckles) Yes. But we cannot join like that way.

Dharmādhyakṣa: Oh, no. On our own standards.

Bahulāśva: We will be independent of that group. They will not dictate anything to us.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Let him come. I shall talk with him.

Bahulāśva: Dr. Judah now is in a theological convention in Boston, and he'll be getting back on Tuesday. So he said he'll come down then immediately.

Prabhupāda: Regulative principle is the groundwork, foundation, of everything. Academic career has nothing to do with it. (break) . . . Bhaktasya kuto mahad guṇā. Anyone who is not factual devotee, his good qualification, academic qualification, has no value. (break)

Dharmādhyakṣa: . . . but many of the students at the Graduate Theological Union, they might want to come to our college to take just one or two courses. Would it be all right for them to do that?

Prabhupāda: No, everyone is welcome. But they must see what is our ideal. Then one day they will also come. So our ideal should be always there, not that we make some compromise. Then it will not be effective.

Dharmādhyakṣa: In the catalogue we say that to get a degree one must be following the regulative principles, that that is as much an important requirement as the study, academic study.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is very important thing. Otherwise, just like in India, there are caste brāhmaṇas, but they have no ideal, and therefore it is not working.

Bahulāśva: Two āratiks a day, sixteen rounds—these would be also course requirements.

Dharmādhyakṣa: In the study of theology, Śrīla Prabhupāda, there is a section called phenomenology, and phenomenology means the study of the actual practices. So actually, they already have this, but they don't actually practice themselves in their schools. But in our schools we would demand practice. (break)

Bahulāśva: . . . could also learn what is Deity worship, how it should be performed. They'd have to learn about chanting . . .

Prabhupāda: A brāhmaṇa's business is paṭhan pāṭhan, yajan yājan, danaḥ pratigrahaḥ. Brāhmaṇa means he is learned himself. He is a very erudite scholar. That is brāhmaṇa's first qualification. And he makes others also scholars, not that he remains himself a scholar. This is called paṭhan pāṭhan. Then yajan yājan. Yajan means he worships the Deity, and he teaches others how to worship. Danaḥ pratigrahaḥ: he accepts charity from others, contribution, and he gives it to others. That we have mentioned, I think. What he gets in the day, he gives in the night. So these are six principles to become a brāhmaṇa. Otherwise, if he gets the degree and he smokes, he does not follow, he does not act. . . because cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Kṛṣṇa said, "The four divisions are according to quality and work." Whether he is qualified, that will be proved by his work, not that he has taken the degree, and now he is smoking. That is going on. Academic means this. They get the degrees, and after that they do all nonsense. That is academic. But this Vedic culture is not like that. He must act. Then it will be all right.

(break) . . . the Western culture, the idea is, "Never mind whatever his private character. We don't mind. He has passed Ph.D., so let him become teacher." This is Western culture. "By privately, he may be rascal. It doesn't matter." That is not brahminical culture. There is no "private" or "public." Antar bahiḥ. Antar means internally, and bahiḥ means external. We . . . that chant that, ācamana mantra?

apavitraḥ pavitro vā

sarvāvasthaṁ gato 'pi vā

yaḥ smaret puṇḍarīkākṣaṁ

sa bahyābhyāntara-śuciḥ

(Garuḍa Purāṇa)

Bahya means external, and abhyāntara means internal, not duplicity. That bahya, externally something and internally something, that will not be successful. Bahyābhyāntaraṁ śuciḥ. Śuci means purified, brāhmaṇa. And who is not purified, he is muci. (break) We have to present an ideal institution, not that we make compromise with everybody. That is not our business. We don't want stars; we want moon. What is the use of millions of stars? Get one moon. That is sufficient. (break) . . . not expect everyone to become brāhmaṇa. That is not possible. Because the three qualities are working, you cannot make all the population on the modes of goodness. That is not possible. There must be people in passion and ignorance. Otherwise, why Kṛṣṇa says, cātur-varṇyaṁ, four division? He could have done one kind of men. But all of them can be utilized in Kṛṣṇa consciousness if they are guided properly. Sva-karmaṇā tam abhyarcya saṁsiddhiṁ labhate naraḥ (BG 18.46). One can get perfection, even becoming a śūdra, provided he is properly guided, not that only the brāhmaṇas can become Kṛṣṇa conscious. No. The śūdras also can become, provided he is guided by the brāhmaṇa. (break) At the present moment the whole human society is full of śūdras. There is no brāhmaṇas. So you have to train real brāhmaṇas. (break) . . . how respectfully received that Sudāmā Vipra, not that because he was a caste brāhmaṇa.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Devotee.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. He was so respectful to the brahminical culture. Many places it is described. Therefore His another name is Namo brahmaṇya-devāya go-brāhmaṇa-hitāya ca, jagad-hitāya kṛṣṇāya govindāya. In the Kali-yuga the so-called brāhmaṇa means having a two-cents thread. Not that brāhmaṇa. Vipratve sūtram eva ca (SB 12.2.3). "To become a brāhmaṇa, just have a thread, sacred thread, and then do all nonsense." That kind of is not required. That is Kali-yuga brāhmaṇa, "I have got the sacred thread. I have become brāhmaṇa. Now I can do all nonsense. Never mind." That will not help. (break) . . . giving sacred thread on the Pāñcarātriki-vidhi, the same principle. There is a little spot, fire. Fan it. The process of fanning. But the fanning is stopped, then small spot of fire also extinguished. It will have no effect, because the small fire cannot do anything. It must be blazing fire. So our this process . . . we are accepting from the most fallen condition. Because he has little spark of fire—he wants to get Kṛṣṇa consciousness—so our process is, "Fan it." And then it must be blazing fire. But if you say that, "Now that small fire is sufficient," that will not act. It must be blazing fire. A small fire is the potency. But potency should be brought to . . . just like wood. There is fire. Everyone knows. But that will not serve your purpose. Fuel, wood, unless there is fire . . . so there is fire, but it has to be increased. The wood . . . first of all set fire. Then there will be smoke. The smoke is also not fire. Smoke is another condition, symptom of fire, but smoke is not fire. The smoke must come into blazing fire. Then it can act.

Brahmānanda: The fanning, that is the devotional practices.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Brahmānanda: If that stops . . .

Prabhupāda: Then it is finished.

Bahulāśva: That verse is from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam?

Prabhupāda: Hah? Which verse?

Bahulāśva: That verse about how wood is better than raw earth and fire is better than wood?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Fire is better than smoke. Smoke is better than wood. Wood means tamo-guṇa. And smoke means rajo-guṇa, "Now it is coming." And fire means sattva-guṇa. So you have to go still above. That is called śuddha-sattva-guṇa. Here, simply blazing fire, it may also extinguish, but the platform where it is never extinguished, that is spiritual platform. That is spiritual. That is not material. Not only fire, but ever-blazing fire. That is spiritual platform. You cannot stop even, "Oh, here is now fire." It must be ever-blazing fire. Then it will act. But that is said when there is no chance of extinction. Nitya-yukta upāsate (BG 9.14). That is stated in the Śrīmad Bhagavad-gītā, nitya-yukta, ever-existing, eternal. That is wanted. Sometimes our devotees fall down because he has not come to that platform, ever-existing. Therefore the fire extinguished. That is possible, but everyone should be very, very careful that the fire may not be extinguished. Then again māyā. There are two things: Kṛṣṇa and māyā. If Kṛṣṇa fire is extinguished, then māyā, ignorance, darkness. Two things.

kṛṣṇa-bhuliyā-jīva bhoga-vāñchā kare

pāśate māyāra tare jāpaṭiyā dhare

(Prema-vivarta)

As soon as you forget Kṛṣṇa, then māyā is there, "Yes, please come here." Finished. There is no two, er, three. Māyā—Kṛṣṇa. If you are not in Kṛṣṇa, then you are in māyā. And if you are in Kṛṣṇa, there is no māyā. Yāhān kṛṣṇa, sūrya-tāhān, nāhi māyāra adhikāra. That is our Back to Godhead motto, "Where there is Kṛṣṇa, there is no nescience."

kṛṣṇa sūrya-sama, māyā andhakāra,

yāhān kṛṣṇa tāhān nāhi māyāra adhikāra

(CC Madhya 22.31)

You understand Bengali?

Harikeśa: I know that verse.

Prabhupāda: (chuckles) That's . . . you know it eternally?

Harikeśa: I hope so.

Prabhupāda: (laughing) That's all right. So we have to set such institution that, māyāra nāhi adhikāra, no more jurisdiction of māyā. That is perfect.

Bahulāśva: We must keep very high standards.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Harer nāma (CC Adi 17.21). There is also vegetable.

Revatīnandana: Seaweed.

Sudāmā: Clams.

Jayatīrtha: It's full of barnacles.

Revatīnandana: And mussels also. The black ones are called mussels. And also crabs.

Prabhupāda: Ap idhar hi hai kya? (Are you coming with us?)

Indian guest: Ha, ja rahe hai to socha ki apse darshan kar le. (Yes, I was just passing by so I thought about meeting you.)

Prabhupāda: Accha, accha. (Good, good.) So you were hearing me talking just now?

Indian guest: Oh, yes, Swāmījī. Listening, part of the conversation I heard. (break) . . . these college courses and units, and I realize that to teach a religious course which is a Vedic culture first needs devotion, second needs knowledge. And I need both of them. I lack both of them. And this is . . . but still, I can support this kind of . . .

Prabhupāda: That I was explaining. Because you have a little desire to know, so that we have to take, a small fire, and we have to fan it. Then it will come blazing fire. Kali-yuga means actually there is no brāhmaṇa, but whenever there is a little tendency of becoming brāhmaṇa, we take it, accept. Otherwise there is no question of pushing on this movement. Wherever there is little chance, we take advantage. That is our process. (break) Initiation means just to see, "Here is a little chance. He is coming forward. Take it, accept him, and fan it." This is initiation, not that "Now I am initiated, I become perfect." (break) Theological Union, when it was started?

Dharmādhyakṣa: Nineteen . . .

Prabhupāda: '62.

Dharmādhyakṣa: There are schools in the Theological Union that go back to 1850. In other words, there are . . . around ten schools make up the union.

Brahmānanda: When was the union started?

Bahulāśva: 1952, I think.

Prabhupāda: '62.

Bahulāśva: No, '52 I think.

Prabhupāda: '52.

Bahulāśva: The date is in that book.

Prabhupāda: I think it is '62. So what is the result?

Bahulāśva: They haven't produced any pure devotees. (laughter) Actually, Dr. Judah says that we will add a lot of life to that union, because all these other groups are dried up.

Prabhupāda: Well, dried up, but they must agree to follow. Otherwise, it is dead. (break) . . . kārād bhaved dvijaḥ. Saṁskāra, reformation, that makes a twice-born. (break) . . . na jāyate śūdraḥ saṁskārād bhaved dvijaḥ, vedo-pathad bhaved vipro brahmā jānātīti brāhmaṇaḥ. Everyone is born śūdra, and by undergoing the reformation process, he becomes twice-born. The father is the spiritual master, and the mother is Vedic knowledge. First birth is ordinary father and mother. That even cats and dogs gets. Everyone gets father and mother. Without father and mother, there is no question of birth. That janma is śūdra janma. Then, when he gets second birth by the spiritual father, then he becomes a dvija, twice-born. Again birth. Then he is allowed to study the Vedic literatures. Vedo-pathad bhaved vipraḥ. And when, by studying, he understand the Brahman, then he becomes brāhmaṇa. This is the process. Brahmā jānātīti brāhmaṇaḥ. And then, after becoming a brāhmaṇa, when he understands Kṛṣṇa, then he becomes Vaiṣṇava. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye (BG 7.3). Siddha means to understand Brahman, and yatatām api siddhānām, and after becoming siddha, one who drives further ahead, out of many of them, one can understand Kṛṣṇa. So we are aiming to that destination—to understand Kṛṣṇa. And then it will be perfect. And as soon as you understand Kṛṣṇa, you are fit for going back to home, back to Godhead. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti (BG 4.9). (break) . . . headquarter kidhar hua? (. . . where did you make your headquarters?)

Indian guest: San Jose, San Francisco me banaya hai, southern peninsula. Prabhupāda, soch rahe the akash ke taaron ke bare me. Hum soch rahe akash ke taaron ke bare me. Chandrama aur Suraj aur . . . (indistinct) . . . sab adventure jo kar rahe hai. (We have made San Jose, San Francisco our headquarters . . . the southern peninsula. Prabhupāda, I was thinking about the planets in the sky. I was thinking about the planets. Sun and Moon and . . . (indistinct) . . . all the adventures.)

Prabhupāda: Ye sab bandar ka lamphan, jhumphan. Ye bahut din pehle mai bol diya tha. (It is like the jumping of monkeys. I said this long ago.) It is jumping of the monkeys. In my book, it was published in 1958. Us samay hum bol diya tha. Ye sab childish hai. (I had said this, then and there. It is completely childish.)

Indian guest: Ye log, ye scientist group hai, bahut bada group hai . . . sab padhata hai, sab likhata hai, sab President ko . . . (This group of scientists are very influential . . . they teach many things, present many writings, and they approach the President . . .)

Prabhupāda: Ab to chup ho gaya. (Now they are completely silent.)

Indian guest: Ha. (Yes.)

Prabhupāda: Ab kuch bolta nahi. Kyuki bahut din tak dhokha diya, ab dhokha nahi chalega. (Now they don't say anything. It is because they have been cheating people for a long time and people are not going to accept it any more.)

Indian guest: Lekin hum log un logo se alag apne ko rakh sakte hai kya? Ki dono ke mamle padhne se . . . (But can we keep ourselves aloof from them? Or should we study both the things . . .)

Prabhupāda: Wo to hum log rakhte hai. Kam se kam hum to rakhte hai. (We keep ourselves up to date about their theories. At least, we keep ourselves updated.) I don't believe all these rascals. Otherwise, how could I write? Later on, in San Francisco some press reporter asked me, "What is your opinion?" And, "This is all foolish waste of time and money." It was published. (break) We are conditioned. We call ourself "conditioned soul." So whatever condition is made by nature or by God, you cannot overcome them. That is futile attempt. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). You cannot surpass the condition of material nature. Foolishly, you may declare very great independent. But completely under the grip of material nature. Everything, there is a process. Just like you have come to USA. You have come through a process, immigration. Can anyone come here without going through the process?

Indian guest: No.

Prabhupāda: And how you can go to the moon planet, independently, without going through the process? (break) . . . 1958 I said: "This is all childish." So I am not a scientist. How did I say? On what standing?

Indian guest: Hum ko lagta hai ki . . . (I feel that . . .) there is a difference in nomenclature. Just to resolve the conflict in my mind and . . . lagta hai ki hum log un logo ke mamle se kya zarurat hai, jo bhi kare kare sab wo sab. Hum log apna apna Vedic culture ke bare me jaisa hai apna prachar karte rahenge . . . (I feel that we should not bother about their activities. Let them do whatever they want. We shall go on preaching about our Vedic culture . . .)

Prabhupāda: Ha, humara wo opinion hai. (Yes, I too have the same opinion.)

Indian guest: Main hum log ka theme to wahi hai. Main mane . . . (That is our main theme. By main, I mean . . .)

Brahmānanda: You said it was a waste of time, and now they have stopped. They are doing it.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So how I predicted? I am not a scientist. How did I say it?

Bahulāśva: On the strength of Bhagavad-gītā.

Prabhupāda: That's it. Vedic science.

Dharmādhyakṣa: First the scientists told the political leaders that, "You let us go to the moon, and we will give you all sorts of benefits." Now they have not produced any benefits, so the political leaders won't give them any more money.

Prabhupāda: That is good. They have come to their senses. All the so-called scientists, they should be dismissed, (laughter) kicked out.

Devotees: (laughter) Jaya!

Nalinī-kanta: Then they can work in the field.

Prabhupāda: All impractical.

Indian guest: We will bring them in this movement. We will persuade them, and just convince them that they need this.

Prabhupāda: That kicking out will convince them. Otherwise, they will not be convinced. So long they are in the post, they will never be convinced. But when they are kicked out, when they are street dog, then they will be . . . (break) Otherwise, you can pass resolution, the senators. When the senators come for vote, you tell them, "First of all dismiss all these things. Then we shall give you vote. Otherwise no more vote." Then they will be also. And vote has become cheap. Saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ. That example I was giving, that small animals and big animal. The lion is a big animal, and he is afraid of by the small animals, jackals, cats and dogs. So out of fear, they are giving vote. But giving vote to whom? To an animal. So how they can be happy? A small animal is giving vote to the big animal. But suppose a big animal, a lion, he is very powerful. Does it mean he is human being? He is animal. So the small animals may be afraid of that big animal, but the human being knows that he is animal. That's all. He doesn't care for this animal. The animal may be very strong, but that does not mean he will be given any credit of human being. No. That is not possible.

So in this animal civilization there are many strong, big animals. So they are voted by the small animals, but we are not going to vote that he is very important figure. No. We immediately reject. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇā (SB 5.18.12). "One who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he is useless." That's all. We are not going to echo the small animals. That is not possible. We reject, "Oh, he is animal." That's all. So our test is whether one is Kṛṣṇa conscious. You can say that, "If you are not a big animal, that does not mean that you are a big man." That is . . . we admit. But we have got our Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says, "Here is a rascal." And so we say, "Here is a rascal." That's all. On the strength of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says,

na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ

prapadyante narādhamāḥ

māyayāpahṛta-jñānā

āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ

(BG 7.15)

Anyone who does not submit to Kṛṣṇa, he is useless, duṣkṛtinaḥ, mūḍhaḥ, narādhamāḥ. So why we shall give respect to the narādhamas, duṣkṛtinas, mūḍhās, māyayāpahṛta-jñānā? We shall not give any. We shall respect only Kṛṣṇa conscious person. Vaiṣṇava ṭhākura, tomāra kukura bhūliya janaha more: "Vaiṣṇava ṭhākura, you just accept me as your dog," Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura sings. That is success wanted. "If you accept me as your dog, that is my success." Vaiṣṇava ṭhākura, tomāra kukura bhūliya janaha more. Our endeavor is just to become a dog of a Vaiṣṇava, not to become an animal like lion. We remain a dog, but of a Vaiṣṇava. And we refuse to become a big animal like lion. This is our philosophy.

Another song is, Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura's, janmaobi jadi icchā to hara, kīṭa-janma hau jaha das bhakta tuṅhara: "I do not know what is my next life. That depends on Your consideration. But if You think that I must take another birth or another many births, it doesn't matter. Only I request You that You make me an insignificant ant in the house of a devotee." Kīṭa-janma hau jaha das tuṅhara. This is Vaiṣṇava aspiration, that "If I become an ant under the protection of a Vaiṣṇava, that is also successful. And I don't want to become a Brahmā who is not a devotee." So this Vaiṣṇava philosophy is very accurate. Therefore this life of a Vaiṣṇava begins with surrender, not the challenge. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). That is'Vaiṣṇava. Christ also said that "Kingdom of God is for the humble and meek." Is it not? He never said it is for the lion and elephant. The material disease means we have challenged Kṛṣṇa, God, "Oh, what is God? We can live independently." And that is material scientist. They are trying to prove, "There is no God. We can create everything in the laboratory." And that is their foolishness.

Indian guest: Yeah, there are many, many atheist. I know that.

Prabhupāda: Their whole propaganda is atheism. Therefore we are not very favorably disposed, the so-called scientists. Their whole propaganda is how to prove there is no God. That is their only aim. I mean, people say that, "Oh, now nobody is going to talk of God. Talk of science." They say like that. Is it not?

Satsvarūpa: Dr. Radhakrishnan said, "Religion won't be accepted unless it can be accepted in terms of science."

Prabhupāda: So, religion is not science? We are following blindly?

Satsvarūpa: No, we have our own science.

Prabhupāda: No own science. This is science. They are following blindly, nonsense, the Radhakrishnan and company. We are following . . . therefore our Dr. Svarūpa Dāmodara has said: "Kṛṣṇa, the greatest scientist." We are following the greatest scientist. They are rascals. They are following the false scientist.

Bahulāśva: They have never seen the atom, but they believe in it.

Prabhupāda: Atom . . . atom, not question of seeing. You can count all the atoms throughout the universe; still, you cannot understand what is Kṛṣṇa. You may be so great scientist that you can count each and every atom within the universe, but still, you shall remain unable to understand Kṛṣṇa. That is stated in the śāstra. Now here is sand. You can say: "There are so many sands." And this is only a small beach, but you can say how many sands and atoms are there within the universe. You can become so qualified. But still, you are unqualified to understand Kṛṣṇa. Radhakrishnan, Dr. Radhakrishnan was a good man, brāhmaṇa, but he was victimized by the Western culture. He got some money from Oxford University; therefore he took the Westerner his father-mother, that's all. That is his qualification. Whatever the Westerners say, they will say, he will say: "Yes, this is science." Not only Dr. Radhakrishnan, all the big men of India, they thought like that.

Brahmānanda: Tagore?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Tagore also got his position because he got the Nobel Prize from Western world. Therefore he was so much obliged. All the big, big men, governors, etcetera, he would invite at his home. He was rich man, zamindar. Not very rich, but a descendant of rich.

Brahmānanda: (to another devotee) Tagore. I went to his house. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . became so enamored by the Western people that there is a song, yo kūṭeko baralad galikiya uska tengri laya uṣka mutton chop bānāiya: "A dog, because he is killed by the governor, so we have made mutton chop out of it. Take it." (laughter) The dog became so exalted because he was killed by the viceroy. This is their philosophy.

Indian guest: Rabindranath Tagore and all these big people, they were not pure devotee, but . . .

Prabhupāda: They're big lions, that's all. And they are praised by the small cats and dogs. (laughter) (break) . . . Rabindranath Tagore's Gītāñjali, he indirectly praises, "I love you," but he does not mention whom he loves. He does not know who is the lovable object. You have read his Gītāñjali?

Indian guest: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Is it not like . . .?

Indian guest: That's right.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Tumi, "You are." Who is that tumi? That he does not know.

Indian guest: Well, I respect him as a person or whatever, but he is not a devotee, and it is a rare occasion to hear a pure devotee.

Prabhupāda: But our principle is who is not a devotee, he is not respectable.

Brahmānanda: He says in that Gītāñjali that the most beautiful creation of God . . .

Prabhupāda: Is woman.

Brahmānanda: Yes. (laughter)

Jayādvaita: That's tumi.

Prabhupāda: So what is this? Everyone is seeing the beautiful, the most perfect creation of God, is a woman.

Indian guest: That's lust, or maybe passion . . .

Prabhupāda: That's all. So what is the difference between man and dog? The dog is also seeing another she-dog—the most beautiful creation of God. The ass is also seeing the she-ass—most beautiful creation. So what is the difference between ass and dog and this? And a devotee says,

yad-avadhi mama cetaḥ kṛṣṇa-padāravindayor

nava-nava-dhaman rantum āsīt

tad-avadhi bata nārī-saṅgame

bhavati mukha-vikāraḥ suṣṭhu niṣṭhīvanam

(Yāmunācārya)

"So long I have become devotee, since then, as soon as I think of sex, I spit on it." This is devotee. (break) . . . whole world is going on simply by this perverted vision: the woman is very beautiful for the man and the man is very beautiful to the woman. This is the knot, hṛdaya-granthi. Otherwise how they will work? Reciprocally, they are seeing beautiful. Sometimes the women like big, big beard. Yes, they like. And they keep. The Muhammadans, they say: "We keep beard. Women like it." They don't want this shaven-headed. Huh? What is your experience? (laughter)

Indian guest: Well, there is a lot more emphasis over here about sex and girls than it is. . .

Prabhupāda: That is everywhere. Why do you say here?

Indian guest: In India . . . I come from a village, and they don't talk . . . well, fathers, parents, elder brother and priest . . . and it is very different.

Prabhupāda: But that does not mean the thought of woman is absent. They may be more civilized. They don't talk loosely. But that does not mean he is free from the woman's beauty.

Indian guest: Yeah, they have it, but it is not that rampant. It is kind of suppressed a little bit, so.

Prabhupāda: At least they know. They are taught by the culture, "This is not good." But here they do not know that, that the thinking of woman is not good.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They think if you don't think of a woman, then that is not good.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You're abnormal.

Indian guest: That's right. They think you are abnormal. That's right. Over there something like divorce and the crisis, one woman marrying ten husband or going around . . . those kind of . . . I don't know anybody in India who has been divorced. I don't know personally. So it's different level.

Prabhupāda: No, amongst the mass of people in India, still there is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It is not vanished. Because by culture, by taking birth in India, that is inherent. India is so great.

Indian guest: The one problem over there: it's very hard to find a pure devotee or real guru . . .

Prabhupāda: Because their leaders have gone dead. The leaders are Jawaharlal Nehru and company.

Indian guest: They have destroyed. The Nehru family has destroyed India. He was atheist.

Prabhupāda: Even Gandhi, even Gandhi.

Indian guest: Gandhi believed in God, but Nehru didn't believe in God.

Prabhupāda: No, no, he does not know that Kṛṣṇa is God. Everyone believes in God. That is another thing. But one must know who is God. That is advancement. Here also, the people say: "God, God is great." But as soon God comes, "Here I have come," they don't believe it.

Indian guest: These people are good chors, and actually they can steal something. . .

Prabhupāda: Even Dr. Radhakrishnan, he did not believe Kṛṣṇa. So this is the disease. God comes personally and says: "Here I am," they won't believe. That is the difficulty.

Indian guest: Really, it is some kind of sanctifying to a person to come in contact with a real sādhu. In India I run into hundreds of sādhus, and I donate some money, but completely . . . well, this poverty probably has brought this corruption, in that whole temple. I go to Benares and I go to Mathurā and I go to any temple, Badnatham, and those people, only they are after money.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian guest: This has been over the . . . I don't know how it can be corrected, those holy places.

Prabhupāda: (looking at crabs) So you see, they are living within the sand . . . (laughter)

Brahmānanda: Has a house.

Jayatīrtha: That's a very fortunate crab.

Prabhupāda: And these people say there is no life, there is only sand. (break) What is their attempt about going to Venus?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Going to where?

Brahmānanda: Going to Venus? I think the Russians have sent some . . .

Indian guest: They are working on a joint venture, Russia and United States. They are going to rendezvous sometimes pretty soon.

Brahmānanda: To Venus there is some attempt now, to go to Venus?

Indian guest: The Russians have attempted to land not a manned craft, but unmanned craft.

Prabhupāda: Huh? Man craft?

Indian guest: Unmanned craft.

Prabhupāda: What is that man craft?

Harikeśa: Just one ship without any people inside.

Indian guest: With instruments in there.

Prabhupāda: That they did in respect of moon also.

Indian guest: In the beginning, yeah.

Prabhupāda: Then why it is failure?

Indian guest: There is nothing there. That's what they say. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: So . . . then what is their scientific knowledge? If there was nothing there, why they attempted? Is that scientific knowledge?

Jayādvaita: They can pay us, and we'll tell them what's there. (break)

Prabhupāda: Why they are attempting to go there?

Indian guest: They are saying they are trying to learn the universe creation, see the relationship between earth's soil and geology and the geology of the moon, if there is some relationship. If the evolution process came through in some kind of joint relationship, they can establish some kind of hereditary of evolution process. They are trying to . . . on the top of that, they came out with a lot of electronic and gadgets to go over there. And to do any kind of adventure like this they have to design all kinds of gadgetry. And those gadgetry, they claim, is useful to human being on the earth over here, because that came out . . .

Prabhupāda: The useful is that they have squandered so much money of the human being.

Brahmānanda: It's a big business.

Prabhupāda: And bluffed. That is usefulness.

Indian guest: They have spent hundreds and hundreds of billions of dollars in that process, certainly a lot more money than one can imagine.

Bahulāśva: Even by studying the soil on the earth, Prabhupāda, they cannot make food grow without rain.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Bahulāśva: Even by studying the soil on the earth, they can't make the food grow.

Prabhupāda: They cannot do anything. Simply they can bluff. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ (BG 3.27). Everything is being done by the nature. What they can do, these foolish rascals?

Indian guest: Certainly, nature got a whole lot of power.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Indian guest: Nature got a lot of power.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.

Indian guest: They're looking for energy. Energy running short, and we are running short of energy for driving a car and driving the entire ocean over here. See all these big waves coming round. So . . .

Jayatīrtha: Yes, Kṛṣṇa has no shortage of energy.

Indian guest: No. All big hurricanes and they came, and full of energy and . . . I'm not saying that's good, but . . . we can put a small little fan in a room to blow a little wind this much. And see a big wind comes in from the nature. (break)

Prabhupāda: Everything is floating in wind, in air. Such a big cloud, floating in the air. It contains millions of tons of water, but it is kept in air.

Indian guest: We try to heat the home in the winter season, and it is a hard time heating a home. We don't have energy, run short of energy. But summer comes, and nature heats it up that we are just too hot. So the nature's energy supply is just unlimited. Science cannot even imagine a small fragment.

Prabhupāda: Our science is stated in the Vedas, yasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavanti (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.3). Just try to understand Kṛṣṇa, and everything will be understood. So try to understand one, Kṛṣṇa, and then you understand everything. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavanti. (break) . . . philosophy is, it is said that, bhaktim . . . śreya-sṛtiṁ bhaktim . . . śreya-sṛtiṁ bhaktim upasya, ye kliśyanti kevala-bodha-labdhaye (SB 10.14.4). Kevala-bodha means just trying to understand this, that, this, that, this, that, this, that. In this way they are wasting time and giving up devotional service to the Lord. So what is the result? Bhaktim udapasya te vibho kliśyanti ye kevala-bodha-labdhaye. Kevala-bodha. The duration of life is very short, and he is gathering knowledge by going to the moon. In this way he is wasting his time. So the result is that waste of time. That is their gain, and nothing more. Just see that these people, instead of teaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they wanted to study, go to the moon planet to understand. The result is, their only result is, that they have labored so much, and that is their gain, nothing else. What other thing they have made? Teṣāṁ kleśala evāvaśiṣyate nānyad yathā sthula-tuṣāvaghāṭīnām. Just like you beat the skin of rice paddy. You will not get rice. Simply your labor, "Gad, gad, gad, gad," that will be your gain. So their only gain is that they have learned that in the moon there is dust like here, that's all. This is their . . . (laughs) As if we are very much eager to know that there is also dust in the moon. (laughs) And they bluff people, selling ticket for going to moon planet. Pan American?

Devotees: Yes.

Prabhupāda: This is going on. This is science. Bambhārambhe laghu-kriyā. So our Rāmeśvara Prabhu, where is? You have got now machine arrangement, such nice—you can produce daily one book. (laughter) And if you cannot do so, then it is like that moon planet, bambhārambhe laghu-kriyā. It is very nice to see that so many machines are . . . but what is the result? If you produce one book daily, then these machines are properly utilized.

Rāmeśvara: We will produce whatever you translate the same day, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Now you can produce the fifteen books which is . . .

Devotee: In fifteen days. (break)

Prabhupāda: Find out how to do it. Simply don't be satisfied that you have got so many nice machines. (break)

(in car) . . . the Baptist Church vehicle is there, that bus.

Brahmānanda: There's a bus there of First Baptist Church. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . picture.

Brahmānanda: That red poster there on the board, "Talk, rock and jazz."

Jayatīrtha: It looks like some sort of a concert they're advertising. (break)

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Jayatīrtha: You wanted George Harrison to come and visit you?

Prabhupāda: No, I can go there.

Brahmānanda: Well, we'll call him today.

Jayatīrtha: Yes, we will try to contact him. When I was in London, Mukunda was saying that now it will be very good if George will sign over this manor to us because the Indian community is coming forward.

Prabhupāda: Yes, I know that. So I will talk with him.

Jayatīrtha: That would be very good. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . purchased a house here?

Jayatīrtha: Yes. Somewhere, I think, in Beverly Hills. He has moved here now from London.

Prabhupāda: Oh, from London?

Jayatīrtha: Yes.

Brahmānanda: Who is his new wife? Do you know? He has a new wife.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Jayatīrtha: Apparently, she is more religiously minded than the last one.

Prabhupāda: The last one was religiously. Petri? Petri?

Jayatīrtha: Patty.

Prabhupāda: Patty. (break) . . . school building.

Brahmānanda: Yes, Venice High School. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . ten-thousand-dollar prize . . .

Jayatīrtha: The racetrack.

Brahmānanda: They are betting, gambling.

Jayatīrtha: Gambling is becoming much more widespread now in America.

Prabhupāda: Yes, they have no good business.

Jayatīrtha: The government is using it as a good way of getting more taxes and profits. The government is handling all the lotteries and horse races themselves now, more and more.

Prabhupāda: They also get good excise tax from liquor.

Jayatīrtha: Yes. A very big source of revenue.

Brahmānanda: In Germany the government supports prostitution.

Prabhupāda: Germany?

Brahmānanda: Yes.

Jayatīrtha: Yes. They opened up their own prostitution houses, the government.

Brahmānanda: They now have a skyscraper in Germany. The skyscraper is a brothel, and you drive your car in, and they have television screens. And you see on the television screen what girl you like.

Prabhupāda: Ācchā.

Brahmānanda: Yes, and then you pick up the phone, and you . . . they tell you the room number, and then you go in the elevator.

Prabhupāda: Scientific. (laughter)

Brahmānanda: Yes, it's very advanced. They call them "erotic centers." (break)

Jayatīrtha: They went on strike.

Brahmānanda: France is not as developed. In France the prostitutes . . .

Prabhupāda: Well, in France you can get prostitute on the street. They are standing.

Brahmānanda: Well, that's a bad system for the prostitutes because . . .

Jayatīrtha: They've gone on strike, saying that the government is not treating them properly.

Brahmānanda: They're not being protected by the government like they are in Germany. So they have gone on strike by going into the churches and occupying the churches. So it has created a big . . .

Prabhupāda: Occupying the churches?

Jayatīrtha: The Catholic churches.

Brahmānanda: They go on strike. They go there and they won't go out.

Prabhupāda: That is called Gandhi's policy.

Brahmānanda: Yes, geraho, or something like that.

Prabhupāda: It is called satyagraha.

Jayatīrtha: They are trying to get the Catholic Church to support their demands.

Prabhupāda: That means Catholic Church is supposed to support these prostitutes?

Jayatīrtha: Yes.

Brahmānanda: Well, actually, in France there is another now, a leading church official, a bishop. He was found. He died in the . . .

Prabhupāda: Prostitute's house.

Brahmānanda: Prostitute's, yes. And in Germany the newspapers gave this very big publicity, that "Just see how France is . . ." They took the opportunity of criticizing that, "Here is the French Church." Another big official, he was found naked.

Prabhupāda: And we say: "No prostitution." (break) . . . the problems will come, one after another. This is a bad civilization. It is already a dangerous place, material world, and this bad civilization is creating more dangerous problems.

Jayatīrtha: Now everyone is terrified. In New York they published . . . the police and the fire department published a pamphlet saying that New York is now called "Fear City." And they pass them out to the passengers that come in on the airplanes and the buses, saying that, "You should be very careful. You should not walk the streets at night and . . ."

Brahmānanda: Because the New York City is financially bankrupt, they are firing so many policemen, firemen . . .

Prabhupāda: Ācchā.

Brahmānanda: Yes. So the policemen, in retaliation, they are making propaganda—and actually it's a fact—that, "Now New York is very unsafe, and no one should go out on the street after six o'clock."

Prabhupāda: Just see.

Brahmānanda: "No one should ride the subway."

Prabhupāda: Then that there will be another problem.

Brahmānanda: Now there will be increase of crime.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Not only crime, if there is no passenger in the subway . . .

Brahmānanda: Yes. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . troubled water. Troubled water.

Brahmānanda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So you fish, catch fish. The houses will be cheaper. Now, in this crisis, the house is, cost of the big, big house, is cheaper. So you want a big house, you can . . . catch fish in the troubled water.

Brahmānanda: Oh, yes.

Devotee: (indistinct) . . . looks near. (break)

Brahmānanda: . . . Bhavānanda Mahārāja, he did not give a very good report about New York, that the devotees there are not very enthusiastic. He says he was there one day, they collected . . . the entire temple collected only $125, which is ridiculous.

Prabhupāda: So Bhavānanda has given report to the GBC. Now you do the needful.

Brahmānanda: Well, he's heading back towards New York now. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . everything will be all right.

Brahmānanda: Yes. (end)