740604 - Conversation A - Geneva

Conversations by Date, 1974

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

740604R1-GENEVA - June 04, 1974 - 53:38 Minutes

(Conversation with Prof. Regamay, Professor of Sanskrit at the University of Lausanne)

Prabhupāda: . . . our books.

Prof. Regamay: Yes. Yes, I have seen. I have read them, but the Bhagavad-gītā I have not yet received.

Prabhupāda: Not yet seen Bhagavad-gītā?

Guru-gaurāṅga: He has seen, but he will get today.

Prof. Regamay: And perhaps some questions I could put to you?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Prof. Regamay: But first I would like to express my thanks that you gave me this honor to receive me. So I have different questions, because I'm in such a difficult situation that I have many Indian doctrines, and there was some difficulty because I know them only through the books, without the guru. And, for instance, one of the first questions I have to put: Viṣṇu Purāṇa, it's very similar and very coincidental to the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, Viṣṇu Purāṇa.

Prof. Regamay: Is that . . . practically, can it be considered that it's the same kind of . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, Viṣṇu Purāṇa is Vaiṣṇava literature. There are eighteen Purāṇas. Out of eighteen, six are sāttvika, and six are rājasika, and six are tāmasika. The sāttvika Purāṇas, they are Vaiṣṇava literature: Viṣṇu Purāṇa, Brahmāṇḍa Purāṇa, Bhāgavata Purāṇa, Padma Purāṇa.

Prof. Regamay: The same . . . because I understood through . . . it is that the problem, that Kṛṣṇa is the original person of divine, but in . . . by Rāmānuja or Viṣṇu Purāṇa it reverse Viṣṇu is the highest.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is Viṣṇu.

Prof. Regamay: And Kṛṣṇa is the avatāra of Viṣṇu.

Prabhupāda: No. Kṛṣṇa is avatārī. You have read Bhagavad-gītā?

Prof. Regamay: Yes, of course.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ. (aside) Find out this verse.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Tenth Chapter.

Prabhupāda:

ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo

mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate

iti matvā bhajante māṁ

budhā bhāva-samanvitāḥ

(BG 10.8)

So sarvasya. There are originally three deities: Brahmā, Viṣṇu, Maheśvara. So Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ: I am the origin of all the deities." Read it.

Guru-gaurāṅga:

ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo

mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate

iti matvā bhajante māṁ

budhā bhāva-samanvitāḥ

(BG 10.8)

"I am the source of all spiritual and material worlds. Everything emanates from Me. The wise who know this perfectly engage in My devotional service and worship Me with all their hearts."

Prof. Regamay: Yes, that I know what it is in the Bhagavad-gītā but, for instance, in the words of Rāmānuja, it is not Kṛṣṇa, but it is Viṣṇu which is the highest form. So this one questions what I had to put that . . . and also . . . may I sit down on . . .? I would be much more . . .

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Give him another pad.

Prof. Regamay: Among the avatāras which are described in the second and third book of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, there are two questions that I have to put. There is Kṛṣṇa Himself, who appears as His own avatāra, and the Kṛṣṇa, the Yādava Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa, when He appears within this material world . . . that is also in the Bhāgavatam, that He appears as Viṣṇu incarnation. But actually, Kṛṣṇa is the . . . and in the Brahma-saṁhitā it is stated, yasyaika-niśvasita-kālam athāvalambya jīvanti loma-vilajā jagad-aṇḍa-nāthāḥ, viṣṇur mahān sa iha yasya kalā-viśeṣaḥ (Bs. 5.48). You understand?

Prof. Regamay: Yes, I understand.

Prabhupāda: Viṣṇur mahān, Mahā-Viṣṇu, yasya iha kalā-viśeṣo govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi. So the Mahā-Viṣṇu, the origin of the material creation . . . there is Mahā-Viṣṇu in the Causal Ocean. From Him the Garbhodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu enters into each and every universe. Yasyaika-niśvasita-kālam athāvalambya jīvanti loma-vilajā jagad-aṇḍa-nāthāḥ (Bs. 5.48). So jagad-aṇḍa-nātha is Brahmā. So he is produced on the Garbhodakaśāyī Viṣṇu. And this Garbhodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu is expansion of Mahā-Viṣṇu. And Mahā-Viṣṇu is kalā viśeṣaḥ, partial expansion of Kṛṣṇa. Yasya hi. Yasya hi . . . yasya . . . what is that? You have Brahma-saṁhitā?

Devotee: You have a copy downstairs.

Yogeśvara: Yasya prabhā prabhavataḥ (Bs. 5.40)?

Prabhupāda: No, that is another. Yasya niśvasita-kālam avalambya. Mahā-Viṣṇu is breathing. So taking advantage of that breathing, innumerable universes are generating. And each universe, there is a superintending deity who is called Brahmā. Yasya hi niśvasita-kālam. Kālam atha avalambya jīvanti loma-vilajā jagad-aṇḍa-nāthāḥ. Many hundreds and millions of Brahmās there are. They live, only taking advantage of the breathing period of Mahā-Viṣṇu. (break) Mahā-Viṣṇu is sub-plenary portion. First Kṛṣṇa, then Balarāma, then Saṅkarṣaṇa, Pradyumna, Aniruddha, Vāsudeva. Vāsudeva, Saṅkarṣaṇa. Then, from Saṅkarṣaṇa, Nārāyaṇa. Then, from Nārāyaṇa, again catur-vyūha, second Saṅkarṣaṇa, Vāsudeva, Aniruddha. And from the second Saṅkarṣaṇa is Mahā-Viṣṇu. And from Mahā-Viṣṇu, Kāraṇodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu. And from Kāraṇodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu, Kṣīrodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu. The Kṣīrodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu is in each universe. He is the Supersoul. And when any incarnation comes within this world, He comes through Kṣīrodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu. In that way, Kṛṣṇa comes through Kṣīrodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu. But this Kṣīrodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu is the expansion of the expansion of Kṛṣṇa.

Prof. Regamay: Yes, I see, but . . .

Prabhupāda: It is like that.

Prof. Regamay: Yādava Kṛṣṇa spoke with Arjuna . . .

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Prof. Regamay: It was the personal God Himself or it was an incarnation, this Kṛṣṇa which is in Bhagavad-gītā?

Prabhupāda: Advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam (Bs. 5.33). Kṛṣṇa is one. Advaitam acyutam. Infallible. Anādi: He has no cause. Ananta-rūpam. Ananta-rūpam. Advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam ādyaṁ purāṇa-puruṣam (Bs. 5.33). He is the origin. Advaitam-acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam ādyaṁ purāṇa-puruṣaṁ nava-yauvanaṁ ca (Bs. 5.33). Still, He's just a fresh, young boy. Govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi. So Govinda is the ādi-puruṣam. Aham ādir hi devānām. (aside) Find out this verse, aham ādir hi devānām. Rāmānujācārya has also admitted Kṛṣṇa the Supreme. Śaṅkarācārya has admitted in his note on Bhagavad-gītā, sa bhagavān svayaṁ kṛṣṇaḥ. What is that?

Nitāi:

na me viduḥ sura-gaṇāḥ

prabhavaṁ na maharṣayaḥ

aham ādir hi devānāṁ

maharṣīṇāṁ ca sarvaśaḥ

(BG 10.2)

"Neither the hosts of demigods nor the great sages know My origin, for in every respect I am the source of the demigods and the sages."

Prof. Regamay: Yes. Thank you. Now, I'm still concerned with two of the incarnation which have . . . because for me this is the doctrine of personalism and personal highest form of God. Now, among two of the incarnations, there is Kapila and Buddha. And Kapila is practically, finally, the classical Sāṅkhya-ist atheist. How could it be?

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is imitation Kapila, and there is . . . original Kapila is Devahūti . . . son of Devahūti, Kapila.

Prof. Regamay: It's what we can't find in Bhagavad-gītā with . . .

Prabhupāda: Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. So Kapila, this Kapila is atheist Kapila. He's a different Kapila. Original Kapila is the son of Devahūti, son of Kardama Muni and Devahūti. That is described in the Third Canto of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. He is incarnation of Kṛṣṇa, God. Kapila. And actually, he enunciated Sāṅkhya philosophy. And this Sāṅkhya philosophy which is known in Europe amongst the European scholars, that is the atheist Kapila. It is not original Kapila.

Prof. Regamay: Not a true Kapila.

Prabhupāda: No.

Prof. Regamay: And Buddha?

Prabhupāda: Buddha is śaktyāveśa-avatāra. We accept Lord Jesus Christ also, śaktyāveśa-avatāra; Muhammad, śaktyāveśa-avatāra. Śaktyāveśa-avatāra means a living entity especially empowered, and he preaches the philosophy on behalf. That is called śaktyāveśa-avatāra. There are different types of avatāras—guṇāvatāra, manvantarāvatāra, yugāvatāra, līlāvatāra, śaktyāveśāvatāra, like that. They are described in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta, about avatāras. (aside:) You find out Teachings of Lord Caitanya, avatāras, innumerable avatāras. Come here. Find out this chapter. Avatāra saṅkhyeyaḥ. It is compared, just like in the river, the waves are flowing, you cannot count. Or in the . . . what is that? Avatāra. Read, read that chapter.

Nitāi: "Lord Caitanya continued: The expansions of Lord Kṛṣṇa who come to the material creation are called avatāras, or incarnations. Avatāra means one who descends from the higher spiritual sky. In the spiritual sky there are innumerable Vaikuṇṭha planets, and from such a planet, the expansion of the Supreme Personality of Godhead comes to this universe, and therefore He is called avatāra. Avatāra means to descend."

"The first descent of the Supreme Personality of Godhead from the expansion Saṅkarṣaṇa is the puruṣa incarnation. This is confirmed in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, both in the First Canto, Third Chapter, as well as in the Sixth Chapter. It is said there that the Supreme Personality of Godhead descends as the first puruṣa incarnation for the material creation, and He immediately manifests sixteen elementary energies. He is known as Mahā-Viṣṇu lying in the Causal Ocean, and He is the original incarnation in the material world. He is the Lord of time, nature, cause and effect, mind, ego and the five elements, the three modes of nature, the senses and the universal form. He is independent and the master of all objects, moveable and immovable, in the material world."

"The influence of material nature cannot reach beyond the Virajā, or the Causal Ocean, and this is confirmed in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Second Canto, Ninth Chapter. On the Vaikuṇṭha planets there is no influence of the modes of material nature. There is no mixture of modes of goodness, passion and ignorance, neither is there any influence of material time. On those planets, the liberated associates of Kṛṣṇa live eternally, and they are worshiped both by the demigods and the demons."

"The material nature acts in two capacities, as māyā and pradhāna. Māyā is the direct cause, and pradhāna means the elements of the material manifestation. The first puruṣa-avatāra, Mahā-Viṣṇu, glances over the material nature, and thereby the material nature becomes agitated, and the puruṣa-avatāra thus impregnates matter with the living entities. By His glancing, consciousness is created, and consciousness is known as mahat-tattva. The predominating deity of mahat-tattva is Vāsudeva. Consciousness is then divided into three departmental activities under the three guṇas, or modes of nature. Consciousness in the mode of goodness is described in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Eleventh Canto, and the predominating Deity is Aniruddha. Consciousness in the mode of material passion produces intelligence, and the predominating Deity is called Pradyumna. He is the master of the senses. Consciousness in the mode of ignorance is the cause of the production of the ether, the sky, and the cause of production of the hearing instrument, the ear. The cosmic manifestation is a combination of all these, and thereby the innumerable universes are created. Nobody can count how many universes there are."

"These innumerable universes are being produced from the pores on the body of Mahā-Viṣṇu. It is also said that as innumerable atoms are coming and going through the holes in a window, so from the pores of the body of Mahā-Viṣṇu, innumerable universes emanate. From His breathing also, innumerable universes are being produced and annihilated. All His energies are spiritual. They have nothing to do with the material energy. In the Brahma-saṁhitā this fact is also stated. In the Fifth Chapter, fifty-fourth verse, it is said that the predominating deity of each universe, Brahmā, lives only during one breath of Mahā-Viṣṇu. Mahā-Viṣṇu again is the original Supersoul of all the universes. He is also the master of the universes. That is the description of the first incarnation known as Mahā-Viṣṇu."

"The second Viṣṇu incarnation enters into each and every universe, and in each and every universe He spreads water from His body, and on that water He lies down. From His navel the stem of a lotus flower grows, and on that lotus flower the first creature, Brahmā, is born. Within the stem of that lotus flower, there are fourteen divisions of planetary systems which are created by Brahmā. In each universe, the Lord as Viṣṇu maintains the universe, tending to its needs, and although He is within the universe, the influence of the material energy cannot touch Him. The same Viṣṇu, when it is required, takes the form of Lord Śiva and annihilates the cosmic . . . (break) . . . Viṣṇu is the master of the universe, and in each universe there is a manifestation of the Garbhodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu. Although He is within the material nature, still, He is not touched by it."

"The third incarnation of Viṣṇu is also an incarnation of the mode of goodness. As the Kṣīrodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu, He is also the Supersoul of all living entities, and He resides in the Ocean of Milk within the universe. Thus Lord Caitanya described the puruṣāvatāras."

"Then He described the līlāvatāras. He said that there is no count, no limit or count, for the līlā, or pastime, avatāras, but some of them may be described by the Lord, for example, Matsya, Kūrma, Raghunātha, Nṛsiṁha, Vāmana and Varāha. A description of the qualitative incarnations of Viṣṇu, or guṇāvatāras, is as follows: Brahmā is one of the living entities, but he is very powerful on account of his devotional service. Such a primal living entity, by the influence of the mode of material passion, is situated as Brahmā. He is made powerful by the Garbhodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu directly, and therefore Brahmā has the power to create innumerable living entities. A description of Brahmā is given in the Brahma-saṁhitā, Fifth Chapter, fiftieth verse. Brahmā is likened to the valuable stones influenced by the rays of the sun, and the sun is likened to the Supreme . . . (break) . . . lamp. Although both lamps are of equal candlepower, still, one is accepted as the original and the other is said to be kindled by the original lamp."

Prabhupāda: This is very good example. There are many candles. Just like you ignite one candle, then from this candle another candle, another candle. There are many thousands of candles. So each candle is of the same power, lighting power. But still, the first one is called original. So far the candlepower is concerned, they are of equal flame, but still, the first candle, the second candle, the third candle, like that.

Prof. Regamay: Yes, I understand.

Prabhupāda: Dīpārcir eva hi daśāntaram abhyupetya dīpāyate vivṛta-hetuḥ (Bs. 5.46). They are not derived from any other power. They are all viṣṇu-tattva. Dīpārcir eva hi daśāntaram abhyupetya dīpāyate, yas tādṛg eva ca viṣṇu-tayā vibhāti (Bs. 5.46). This is the expansion of Viṣṇu, viṣṇu-tayā. Govindam ādi-puruṣam. He is always referring, Govinda, Kṛṣṇa. Govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi.

Prof. Regamay: Yet I still think of this problem why Lord Kṛṣṇa had to have an incarnation like Buddha, who was teaching practically atheist doctrine and no . . .

Prabhupāda: That is described. I have described in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. (aside) Find out, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, First Canto, First Part.

Prof. Regamay: I read it in your commentary to Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam that he was . . . he didn't need to preach the worship of God because he was himself God.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Prof. Regamay: But he doesn't say it in the text.

Prabhupāda: That is described in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, sammohāya sura-dviṣām (SB 1.3.24). Sammohāya, just to bewilder the atheist class of men. The atheist class of men were advocating, "There is no God." So he appeared before them . . . and they were killing animals like anything. So Buddhadeva inaugurated the nonviolence. So therefore he is God himself, and he is teaching, "There is no God." This is rather cheating.

Prof. Regamay: Yes. Not teaching, but cheating.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughing) So sometimes . . . just like a child does not want to go to school. So the teacher says: "No, no, you don't require to go to.There is no need. But what do you see in your front?" "That's a cow." "Now, what is this?" "A leg." "Then what is next?" "Second leg." "What is this?" "Third leg." So he is teaching mathematics, but practically he says: "You don't require to go to school. You just count the legs of the cow, that's all." It is like that. (laughs)

Prof. Regamay: Now there are some schools of Buddhists who are worshiping Buddha like a God.

Prabhupāda: Yes, he is God. He is God. They don't accept Buddha as incarnation of God. But from Vedas we understand that he is incarnation of God.

Prof. Regamay: But he brought to the world the ahiṁsā, but I think ahiṁsā appears already in the Bhagavad-gītā. But there was ahiṁsā also by the Jains.

Prabhupāda: Ahiṁsā, because at that time people were killing animals in the name of yajña. Just like in the Christian world the order is not to kill, but still, they are killing. So this misuse of scriptural injunction is always going on. A class of men there are, who abuse the scriptural injunctions and go on with their own motive. So there was a period when people, under the protection of Vedas . . . because Vedas, animal sacrifice is recommended for certain purpose, to test the proper chanting of Vedic mantras. The animal was not killed. The animal was put into the fire. Then again it would come out with new life. That is the proper chanting of the Vedic mantras. So for that purpose, animal sacrifice . . . just like in biological laboratories, they experiment on the body of animals—frogs, guinea pigs. Similarly, a similar experiment was made, how the Vedic mantra is being properly chanted. The test was that animal should be put into the fire, and if the Vedic mantras were properly being chanted, then that animal would come with a new body. So an old cow or bull was put, and he would come with fresh body. That was the purpose. Now later on, they began to eat meat by so-called animal sacrifice. In that period Lord Buddha appeared. About him it is, description is there, sadaya-hṛdaya darśita-paśu-ghātam. The Lord became compassionate on the animals, as they were being killed unnecessarily.

So Buddha, Lord Buddha, his only mission was to stop the sinful activities of animal . . . ahiṁsā paramo dharmaḥ. He was teaching that. But these rascals, they would show the evidence . . . just like Christians says that, "Lord Jesus Christ ate fish," or something like that. Because Lord Jesus Christ ate fish, therefore they should maintain slaughterhouse. This is their reasoning. The other day somebody questioned me that . . . I said that killing of animals is sinful activity. So somebody questioned that, "Lord Jesus Christ ate fish," somewhere? So I said that he is powerful, he can eat the whole world. But you cannot imitate. You have to follow his instructions, what he says. He said: 'Thou shall not kill.' So you should follow his instruction, not the action." He is powerful. He can act some way or other, according to circumstances. That is his business. Actually, that is the Vedic statement, that just like the sun, the sun can absorb the urine. People pass urine on the street, and the sunshine absorbs the urine, evaporates, but sun is still pure. Rather, the place where the urine was passed, it becomes disinfected. Similarly, those who are powerful, īśvara, godly, you cannot imitate their actions. They are apparently doing something wrong; still, they are pure. The same example: The sun is absorbing or evaporating the urine, but sun is still pure. But if I imitate and lick up the urine, that is not very good business. Similarly, we cannot imitate the powerful; we have to simply follow the instruction of the powerful. That is . . . but people, on slight imitation . . . is that very good reason? Suppose Christ sometimes ate fish, but that is sufficient reason to maintain big, big slaughterhouse? Because Christ said . . . and he preached in the desert. Suppose there was no food and he had to eat some fish. So that is his business. He could do it. He is powerful. But does it mean on that strength throughout the whole world the Christian will maintain big, big, up-to-date machinery for slaughterhouse?

So it is sinful. So Buddha wanted to stop this nonsense, who were eating and killing animals on the strength of Vedas. They did not know what is the meaning, but they would say: "In the Vedas it is stated, paśavo vadhyaḥ sṛṣṭaḥ: 'The animals are created for being killed.' " And what purpose it is killed? They, without knowing . . . actually, they wanted to satisfy their tongue by eating the flesh, but they would give Vedic evidence. So to stop this nonsense business Buddha said that, "I don't care for your Vedas." Nindasi yajña-vidher ahaha śruti-jātam. Śruti-jātam means Vedic injunction.

Prof. Regamay: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So he condemned, "No, no. I don't care for your Vedas." So he defied Vedic injunction. Because otherwise, he could not establish his theory of nonviolence. The violence, in a certain way, is recommended in the Vedas. So if he says: "No violence," then it is against Vedas. Therefore he had to declare, "No, no, I don't follow the Vedic injunction." And because he did not—he publicly declared that "I don't follow Vedic injunction"—therefore he is taken as atheist. Atheist means who does not take the authority of the Vedas. Nindasi yajña-vidher ahaha śruti-jātam. But he did it. He is all-powerful. He can do it. Why? Sadaya-hṛdaya darśita-paśu-ghātam keśava dhṛta-buddha-śarīra jaya jagadīśa hare. We worship him like that. Keśava dhṛta-buddha-śarīra jaya jagadīśa. We . . . from philosophical point of view, he is taken as atheist. But we Vaiṣṇava, we know that he is God. He is God, incarnation of God.

Prof. Regamay: I have been struck in Ceylon on seeing in Buddhist temples, Viṣṇu.

Prabhupāda: Viṣṇu, yes. There are in Penang. Penang also I have seen. They admit that Buddha is the incarnation of Viṣṇu. That is admitted in the śāstra. That means these Ceylonese or Penangese, originally they knew that Buddha is incarnation of Viṣṇu. In Ceylon you have seen?

Prof. Regamay: I have seen.

Prabhupāda: Similarly, I have seen in Penang also, Viṣṇu, viṣṇu-mūrti.

Prof. Regamay: And . . . but he said also, the doctrine of Buddha, that man has not person, doesn't exist as person. He's only some moving elements, physical and psychical and nothing else.

Prabhupāda: Person? He is person. He is person. Lord Buddha is person.

Prof. Regamay: Yes, person. But Brahman is not person. Brahman.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Yogeśvara: He says that Buddha's philosophy did not admit a spiritual personal identity to the living being, that Buddhist philosophy was that we are simply this combination of chemicals.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is all right.

Prof. Regamay: Chemical, psychical, but no continuous, no ātman.

Prabhupāda: That is śūnyavādī. We say also.

Prof. Regamay: So they are . . . I think it's . . . I must say that when comparing different religions, I see that, for instance, what I find here . . .

Prabhupāda: There is no different religion. As soon as one tries to understand different religion, it is to be concluded that he does not know what is religion. That religion cannot be different. Religion is one. God is one. And the order given by God, that is religion. But "different" means according to time and circumstances . . . just like Lord Buddha, he is giving the same religion. He is God, incarnation of God. He is asking, "Just obey me." The same philosophy is being taught by Kṛṣṇa, "Surrender unto Me." That is religion. Buddha also says "Surrender unto me. Obey me." But that is religion. Yes. So the religion is . . . one who knows God and surrenders to Him, that is religion, and anything . . . that is all cheating. Anything else, that is all cheating. That is not religion. This is religion. God is one, and surrender to God, that is religion. That (break). You take any religion, it doesn't matter. If one has learned what is God and how to surrender to Him, that is religion.

Prof. Regamay: But I noted that, for instance, our Christian approach to God . . .

Prabhupāda: In Christianity they also recommend surrender to God.

Prof. Regamay: It's nearer to your approach than, for instance, I don't know, as the kevalādvaita I mean, where nirguṇa-brahman is the higher form of, than . . .

Prabhupāda: Nirguṇa-brahman . . . just like . . . here we have got this example. This is, what is called, New Zealand lake, and a few step after . . .

Guru-gaurāṅga: Geneva lake.

Prabhupāda: Geneva lake, and few step after, French lake.

Yogeśvara: Because French is a border of Geneva lake also. Therefore sometimes it's considered French.

Prabhupāda: So the sky is one. Sky is one. So in the sky, in the atmosphere, where God is forgotten, that is called material sky. And the sky where God is not forgotten, that is spiritual sky. Just like the sky is one and the sun is one. But when your eyes are covered by cloud, you say: "The cloudy sky." The sky is not cloudy. The sky is one. It is always clear. But some portion of the sky there is cloud, and you say: "This is cloudy sky." Similarly, materialism means when you forget Kṛṣṇa, that is material. And when you know Kṛṣṇa and act for Kṛṣṇa, that is spiritual.

Prof. Regamay: Now, one question still. Why in Ṛg Veda there is not even the name of Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, Viṣṇu, there is. Viṣṇu and Kṛṣṇa, I have already . . . there is no difference.

Prof. Regamay: Viṣṇu, yes, but not the name of Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: No, in Atharva Veda there is name of Kṛṣṇa.

Prof. Regamay: Viṣṇu, yes, I know that the . . .

Prabhupāda: So it doesn't require that in every Veda there should be, because the Upaniṣads, they are impersonal study, negation of the material existence. That is negation. There is no positivity. So when you come to the positivity, then you can understand Kṛṣṇa.

goloka-nāmni nija-dhāmni tale ca tasya

devī-maheśa-hari-dhāmasu teṣu teṣu

te te prabhāva-nicayā vihitāś ca yena

govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi

(Bs. 5.43)

So you cannot understand the goloka-nāmni nija-dhāmni tale ca tasya, the goloka-nāmni planet, where it is. We do not know where is or how many planets are in this material world.

(break) . . . seeing very, very distant, ninety-three million miles away. But we have got little heat and light, we are satisfied. You see? But if you have got the capacity to run on . . . just like they are trying to go to the moon planet, go to the sun planet . . . actually it is a fact, this planet is in your front. Where can you go? Why? Why is it impossible to go? It is material. So you cannot go even the material planets, what to speak of the spiritual planets. So for them, this, this much knowledge, "Sunshine is light." That's all. Nothing more. They cannot understand with their poor brain.

Prof. Regamay: But I am struck that, for instance, for us in the West the idea of personal God is strongly rooted in our consciousness.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Lord Jesus Christ, he was Vaiṣṇava. He directly gave you the idea of personal God. Because personal God is the origin. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11). The . . . just like, the same example: the sun-god, the sun planet and the sunshine, they are one. They are not different. But still, this is impersonal, that is localized, and within the sun globe, there is the sun-god. So sun-god is the origin of this light. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, He is the origin of everything. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvam (BG 10.8). That's the fact. But people with poor fund of knowledge, they cannot understand it. Therefore stop. (break) . . . light, that's all. So much. Just like Lord Buddha. He did not explain anything about God. He said: "Just obey me and stop this animal killing." Therefore this much sufficient for him, that's all. The lower-class students, "One plus two equal to three. Two plus two . . ." that much mathematics, not higher mathematics. Higher mathematics is not possible to understand.

Prof. Regamay: Yes, of course.

Prabhupāda: That's it. But there is higher mathematics. Not one plus two or two plus three. No. There is still higher mathematics. So that is not meant for them. That will be explained, explained in the Bhagavad . . . ye yathā māṁ prapadyante tāṁs tathaiva bhajāmy aham (BG 4.11). Those who are expert, or sufficient, insufficient knowledge, they cannot understand the Supreme Absolute. That is also confirmed, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19): "After many, many births, when one is actually in full knowledge, he can understand Kṛṣṇa and surrenders unto Him." Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ (BG 7.19). So Vedas and scriptures are there, differently, according to different condition. Now, what Jesus Christ was teaching the people, you can understand. The first injunction is, "Thou shall not kill." So what class of men they were, just you can understand. Otherwise, why he is first of all telling, "Thou shall not kill"? The Muhammad also said: "From this day, there is no sex with your mother." So just see what class of men. So according to class of men, there should be teaching. Similarly, Buddha also. Lord Buddha said: "No, no, there is no God. Just try to understand me. You obey me." "Yes, sir." It has to be done like that.

Prof. Regamay: Still, there are two questions I have which remain. One is quite a small question. I have read in your commentary to the chastisement of Droṇa, killing of Droṇa, and where it was that violence for a right cause is better than the so-called nonviolence. Now I wanted to ask, for instance, to find that nonviolence, or like Gandhi, it was wrong . . .

Prabhupāda: Gandhi was not a man of spiritual . . . (indistinct) . . . he was a politician, that's all.

Prof. Regamay: Yes, but in his personal . . .

Prabhupāda: Gandhi, actually he did not know anything.

Prof. Regamay: Yes, he read Bhagavad-gītā in English. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: That is also nonsense. "There was no Kṛṣṇa. There was no Mahābhārata or Kurukṣetra." He has written like that.

Prof. Regamay: But he was dead with the words "Rāma." Pronouncing "Rāma Rāma," were his final words.

Prabhupāda: Well, I . . . that is the process of India, to chant the name of Kṛṣṇa. Every Indian has got initial propensity. But actually, Gandhi did not know anything about spiritual science. He was politician, that's all. That one Bengal governor, he was from Australia, Mr. Casey. So he, I remember, "Gandhi is a politician amongst the saintly person or a saintly person amongst the politician." This study was made. His moral principle, character, is very good. That is to be taken by the politicians. But so far his spiritual knowledge is concerned, that is nil.

Prof. Regamay: But nonviolence is not well in every case?

Prabhupāda: No, nonviolence . . . actually, that is the subject matter of Bhagavad-gītā. What do you mean by nonviolence? Because you are not this body. Suppose if I tear away your coat, does it mean that you are killed? So those who are in the bodily concept of life, "I am this body," for them, this kind of fighting or killing is violence. It is violence; but the thing is, there is sometimes necessity. Just like every state maintains the military force, the police force. What is this? The violence department. Required. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, paritrāṇāya sādhūnām (BG 4.8). Suppose you are attacked by some rogue, and if somebody comes and kills him, there is a necessity. It is natural. If you say that time nonviolence, it is foolishness. It is foolishness. Vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām. Those who are rogues and, I mean to say, culprit, criminal, they should be killed. They should be stopped by violence. So violence is required sometimes. Violence is not bad, but it is not to be used ordinarily.

Prof. Regamay: But this young boy who was asking what to do with the Fascists the day before yesterday, he wanted precisely violence to fight against the Fascists. You remember, it was . . .

Prabhupāda: First of all, the thing is that our principle is vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām: those who are sinful, rogues, to kill them. Now, we have to judge whether the Fascist is sinful or the person who is attacking the Fascist, he is sinful. If both of them are of the same category, then where to use violence or to use nonviolence? Now . . . formerly, there was fight between nation to nation, and now, we have seen in Italy—I was in Rome—now they are fighting amongst themselves.

Prof. Regamay: Awfully.

Prabhupāda: Amongst themselves. Now they will fight in the family. So people are becoming so degraded. They require all to be killed.

Prof. Regamay: Yes. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: The Fascist and the non-Fascist and this and everyone . . . and that is being prepared, the atomic bomb. You see? They will be all killed, nature's way. You see? They have become so sinful. I am speaking this freely because you are a gentleman, but the civilization, modern civilization, everyone is addicted to intoxication, everyone is flesh-eating, everyone is illicit sex, everyone is addicted to gambling. So where is pure person? They require all to be killed, Fascist and non-Fascist. Because according to Bhagavad . . . paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām (BG 4.8). All these people, under different names.

Prof. Regamay: Yes, it's violence for the violence's sake practically.

Prabhupāda: So people are so degraded, and there is no education, and there are so-called leaders, they are themselves degraded, they are themselves blind. So what is the position of the present society? It is very precarious condition. Therefore, at the end of Kali-yuga, people will be more and more, more and more degraded. There will be no more preaching. Kṛṣṇa will come as Kalki avatāra, simply killing, simply killing. That's all. Finished.

Prof. Regamay: But they have still 4,000 years of Kali-yuga.

Prabhupāda: Not 4,000; 400,000. So yes the time is coming. And now the partial killing is going on. You drop this . . . the atom bomb is ready. You have got; I have got. I drop on you, and you drop on me. Both of us, we finished. This is going to be happening. People are so degraded. So unless one takes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, there is no possibility of being saved. There is example, that grinding mill . . . you know, grinding mill?

Prof. Regamay: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes, and the grains are put within it, and they are all smashed. But one grain who takes shelter of the center, the pivot, it is not smashed. Similarly, the modern civilization is such that everyone will be smashed. And one takes the central point shelter, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he will not be. Kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati (BG 9.31). So best thing is to take shelter of Kṛṣṇa and save yourself. "Save" means . . . this is saving, if you simply understand Kṛṣṇa. Janma karma . . . Kṛṣṇa appears, disappears. Kṛṣṇa works here also, in the battlefield or in other field. Kṛṣṇa has a whole activity. You study Kṛṣṇa book, beginning from the birth up to the point of His leaving this world. Full of activities. Not that because He is God, He is sitting one place. No. Full of activities, in all different spheres of life. Art, philosophy, politics, sociology, military arts—everything complete. That is Kṛṣṇa.

Prof. Regamay: Yes, of course.

Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa. If He would have appeared as Viṣṇu with four-handed, then He had to take only worship. That's all. No other activity. Therefore He appeared with two hands like human being. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam (BG 9.11). So simply if we understand what are the activities of Kṛṣṇa, then we become eligible to go back to home, back to Godhead. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar. We are teaching that thing. "You try to understand Kṛṣṇa, and all problems of life solved. You go back to home, back to Godhead."

Prof. Regamay: Everything is done by Kṛṣṇa, and we are only the tools for Him.

Prabhupāda: Everything is done by Kṛṣṇa, that's all right. But ye yathā māṁ prapadyante (BG 4.11). As you want Kṛṣṇa to do, He says: "Only just surrender unto Me." He wants that. But you want so many things. Therefore He gives facility, "All right, do it, at your risk." He doesn't want. He says: "Give up all this nonsense." Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam (BG 18.66). "Just surrender unto Me." That He wants. But because we will not do that, we want to do something else, but I cannot do without His sanction, therefore He sanctions. That means Kṛṣṇa does everything. But I want to do, and simply I want His sanction. Therefore, out of His causeless mercy, He agrees, "All right, do it." But you'll have to get the result of it.

Prof. Regamay: I thank you very much.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Prof. Regamay: It was very, extremely useful. Just ends some problems.

Yogeśvara: How many students do you have? (break) (end)