721228 - Lecture NOD - Bombay

Lectures by Date, 1972

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

721228ND-BOMBAY - December 28, 1972 - 55:23 Minutes

Pradyumna: (reading) "Bhakti-rasa, however, the mellow relished in the transcendental loving service of the Lord, does not finish with the end of life. It continues perpetually and is therefore called amṛta, that which does not die, but exists eternally."

Prabhupāda: This is the importance of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam it is said:

tyaktvā sva-dharmaṁ caraṇāmbujaṁ harer

bhajann apakvo 'tha patet tato yadi

yatra kva vābhadram abhūd amuṣya kiṁ

ko vārtha āpto 'bhajatāṁ sva-dharmataḥ

(SB 1.5.17)

Just like sometimes they say that the, in this movement, just like the cinema, the hippies are joining. Accepting that hippies are . . . hippies mane (means) they're useless. They are joining. Bhāgavata says that those who are very dutiful, they are called sva-dharma niṣṭhā. Sva-dharma niṣṭhā. According to Vedic culture, there are different divisions of the society. brāhmin, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha. So these are called sva-dharma, means engaged in one's occupational duty. That is called sva-dharma. Or, in the modern sense, somebody's engaged in business, somebody's engaged in other occupation, profession. There are . . . every man has got some engagement. That's a fact.

So Bhāgavata says that tyaktvā sva-dharmaṁ caraṇāmbujaṁ harer. Anyone, even by sentiment, or by any reason, he gives up his own occupational duty and takes shelter of Kṛṣṇa, or joins this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, tyaktvā sva-dharmaṁ caraṇāmbujaṁ harer . . . all right. If one has joined this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, doing very nicely, he's improving, that's all right. But if he falls down . . . because sometimes they come out of sentiment, join this movement and again falls down. Sometimes. Not very occasionally. But there is chance, because māyā is very strong. One may fall down.

Bhāgavata says, bhajann apakvo 'tha patet tato yadi (SB 1.5.17). He's not mature. In immature stage, by some reason or other if he falls down, then yatra kva vābhadram abhūd amuṣya kim. Then what is the loss there? There is no loss. Suppose he joined out of sentiment and executed devotional service for some time under the direction of the spiritual master, according to the regulation of the śāstras, but incidentally, he falls down. He becomes a victim to the māyā. Bhāgavata says still there is no loss. There is no loss.

On the other hand, a person who is engaged in his occupational duty very sincerely, he has not become a devotee, Bhāgavata says, "What does he gain?" One who is engaged in his occupational duty very sincerely, doesn't care for Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then Bhāgavata says: "What does he gain?" He doesn't gain anything. But the . . . that man who joined this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement out of sentiment, but immaturely he falls down, he has no loss. This is the . . . try to understand this.

Because this Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the consciousness of the spirit soul. That is reality. Therefore as the soul is eternally, his advancement in that consciousness, that also becomes an eternal asset. That will never be lost. Even if (he) falls down in this life—he could not execute cent percent the duties in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, even he falls down—so whatever he has done in this life, that becomes a permanent asset.

So that from next life he'll be given chance. In . . . in ordinary karmi's life, there is no guarantee that he'll get next life a human body. According to his karma he'll get a body—maybe animal body or maybe demigod's body. But there is no certainty that he'll get a human body. But this man, who out of sentiment joined in Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement and immaturely falls down, he's guaranteed to get a very nice human body.

That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, that śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe yogo bhraṣṭo sañjāyate (BG 6.41). He'll get birth in a family, śucīnām. Śucīnām means pious brahmin family or devotee's family, he'll get birth. Or in rich family. The second class will get in rich family. But both these families will give them chance to begin where he ended his Kṛṣṇa consciousness in the last life. He'll begin from there. That is his opportunity. Therefore there is no loss. His next life as human being is guaranteed, even if he's fallen down.

But the others, who does not take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, doing his own duty, but he will get a body according to his karma. Not . . . that . . . that is the difference between the karmīs and the devotee. Devotee, even if he is not successful to execute the devotional schedule perfectly, but whatever he has done—ten percent, twenty percent, fifty percent—that is his asset. It will never be lost. That is being stated.

Go on.

Pradyumna: "This is confirmed in all Vedic literatures. The Bhagavad-gītā says that a little advancement in bhakti-rasa can save the devotee from the greatest danger, that of missing the opportunity for human life."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato bhayāt (BG 2.40). Just like Ajāmila. Ajāmila in his boyhood, he was very sincere brahmin. He was conducting devotional service under the direction of his father. But in youthhood he fell down. He became a victim of a prostitute. He forgot everything. He became a rogue, drunkard, meat-eater, woman-hunter—all fallen down. But at the end of life, when he was afraid of the Yamadūtas, out of fearfulness he called for his youngest son, whose name was Nārāyaṇa.

Because when you are in danger, naturally . . . just like a child cries for the mother, because mother is the only . . . similarly, affection is there. Similarly this Ajāmila asked for the youngest child: "Nārāyaṇa." But immediately he remembered that Nārāyaṇa whom he served in his boyhood.

So immediately the Nārāyaṇa messengers came and saved him. Svalpam apy. He, he executed very little service in his boyhood as a devotee. That saved him from the greatest danger. He was being dragged out by the men of Yamarāja, but the Viṣṇudūta came and protected him and took him to Vaikuṇṭha. Svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato bhayāt. By . . . by chance, he remembered Nārāyaṇa because he executed Nārāyaṇa's service. Then he was saved.

Go on.

Pradyumna: "The rasas derived from our feeling in social life, in family life or in greater family life of altruism, philanthropism, nationalism, socialism, communism, etc., do not guarantee that one's next life will be as a human being."

Prabhupāda: Yes. There is no guarantee. That . . . yes. Now today I am very great leader, minister. That's all right. But after death there is no guarantee that you'll become again minister or big man, big business man. There is no such guarantee. That we'll have to accept another body according to your karma. Suppose as businessman, I've done very nicely. I have given in charity. That's nice. You get better life. But for business' sake, I have earned money by hook and crook, by mentality's just like crocodile or dog; then I have to become a crocodile. That's all.

Because after death you are in the hands of nature. You cannot dictate that "Give me this and that body." No. That you have to prepare in this life. If you prepare yourself in this life to go back to home, back to Godhead, you go back to home, back to Godhead. If you prepare your this life as a crocodile, then you become crocodile. So God is very kind. Ye yathā māṁ prapadyante (BG 4.11).

So it is your business to what kind of body you are going to get next. Just like the example I was giving last night. That we are staying in this room, and suppose after a month we have to give it up. So we must find out another apartment. It may be better or it may be lower.

There is no guarantee. But if we can arrange, we can get better apartment than this. And if we cannot, we may go to hellish apartment. This is the way. But for the devotee, at least it is guaranteed that he gets next life as a human being. Not only human being, but in the family of a devotee or in the family of rich man. These alternatives are there.

Then?

Pradyumna: "We prepare our next life by our actual activities in the present life. A living entity is offered a particular type of body as a result of his action in the present body. These activities are taken into account by a superior authority . . ."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Pradyumna: ". . . known as daiva."

Prabhupāda: People do not believe this. They think that everything is going on automatically. No. There is everything account, witness. The Lord . . .

Devotee: Too windy?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Anumantā upadraṣṭā sākṣīni. Sākṣīni. The Lord . . . Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe (BG 18.61). Everything is being witnessed, and that is being recorded. So just like in a office in government service there is service record, and at the end of the year, everything is considered.

So the man is promoted, given some bonus on the proprietor or the directors; they're not meeting that man. But the service record is there. Similarly, whatever we are doing, good or bad, that is being recorded, and it is examined. Karmaṇā daiva netreṇa (SB 3.31.1). We are acting, and there is superior authority. They are examining what kind of body he has to get next.

So that, that, that science is not being taught, that what is our next body. They are thinking that there is no next body, there is no life this life is finished. But that is not the fact. As this life I have changed: I was a child; I got next body; I was a boy, I got next body; I was a you . . . young man, I got next body; now I have got this body. So now I will have not this body, I will get next body. Where is the difficulty to understand? I've already experienced the next body, next body, next body. Why not after death next body? That the intelligence is to know what is that next body. That is my . . . in my hand.

Just like if you become educated highly, your next post is very nice. But if you are not educated, then your next post is not very nice. Similarly, if you act in this body very nicely, yānti deva-vratā devān pitṟn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ (BG 9.25). So you can prepare your next life. So our this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is next life to go back to Kṛṣṇa directly. That is our program. How? Simply by knowing Kṛṣṇa. That's all.

Kṛṣṇa guarantees this: janma karma me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ (BG 4.9). If we want to go back to home, back to Godhead, simply try to understand what is Kṛṣṇa. And He's explaining in the Bhagavad-gītā. But if you foolishly misinterpret Kṛṣṇa, then you go to hell. But if you understand Kṛṣṇa as Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, then you go back to Kṛṣṇa. Where is the difficulty?

The rascals, they will not understand Kṛṣṇa as Kṛṣṇa says. The rascal will mislead others and mislead himself. He'll go himself to hell and they'll drag all others to the hell. This is going on. This is going on. Everything is there, very plain and clear. One has to act according to that. He gets the benefit. But they, they will not allow. These rascal leaders, they'll not allow. They will be represent Kṛṣṇa as something else. The . . . the only business is to kill Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Not to accept that Kṛṣṇa is fact. All the big commentaries on Bhagavad-gītā, you'll see. They're simply trying to make Kṛṣṇa is not a fact: it is some fictitious; it is some story, mental speculation. This is their business. Demonic.

So the condition is very, I mean to say, dangerous. People are being misled. We are only—it is not our pride; it is a fact—we are the only institution we are trying to give the greatest benefit to the human society, the Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya (BG 4.9). Anyone who understands, if he understands . . . it is not possible to understand fully Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is unlimited. But as, as He represents Himself, Kṛṣṇa, as He says Himself, if you understand . . .

Kṛṣṇa says: "I am the origin of everything." You take it. Kṛṣṇa is the origin of everything. He has proved. Kṛṣṇa is origin of everything. All the ācāryas, big, big ācārya, accepted Him, Kṛṣṇa is the origin of everything. Arjuna, who heard Bhagavad-gītā, he accepted Him, Kṛṣṇa is origin. Paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramam (BG 10.12). Why we should try to understand Kṛṣṇa otherwise? What is this foolishness?

But that is their scholarship. That is their knowledge. If somebody can most rascal explain Bhagavad-gītā, oh, he's a great scholar. Just see the fun. He's the rascal number one and misleading people, he's great scholar. And we are simply presenting Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Kṛṣṇa says . . . Kṛṣṇa says: "Surrender unto Me"; we say "Surrender to Kṛṣṇa." "These are primitive. These are primitive." We are not scholars. This is, this rascaldom is going on.

So you want to save people from these rascals. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. The rascals have created a situation by defying Kṛṣṇa's authority, atheistic situation, the whole world is in chaos. That must be. When there are leaders only demons, how there can be any peace? The people are also becoming demons.

So our this movement is very scientific, authorized. If you preach, there is no difficulty. As we . . . as it is described in the Bhagavad-gītā, simply Bhagavad-gītā as it is, then you are successful, and those who hear you, they also successful. Simple method.

Go on.

Pradyumna: "These activities are taken into account by a superior authority known as daiva, or the authority of God. This daiva is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā as the prime cause of everything."

Prabhupāda: Yes. There are five causes. Karta; the . . . the doer; the place; the instrument; and providence. In this way, there are five causes for acting anything. Just like you are doing business. So if you are a nice businessman, that's very good asset. If you place your business in a marketplace, there is good opportunity. If you have got sufficient capital, good instrument, and if God is favorable, then your business is successful.

Similarly, in anything there are five causes. And the ultimate cause is daiva. You may make everything very nicely. You may become . . . may be very business . . . a good business man, you have got sufficient capital, you are conducting your business in a very nice center, downtown, everything, but if God is not favorable, then everything will be spoiled. Everything will be spoiled. So therefore this cause, favorable. Of course, God is kind to everyone. But . . . but we see sometimes that everything is perfectly done, but still it is spoiled.

Just like a man, a man is suffering from some disease, and you have employed first-class physician, first-class medicine, first-class everything, but still the man dies. What is the cause? The cause is daiva. That in spite of all your endeavors, because God does not like that he should live, you cannot save him.

You cannot save him. The same example, again I want to give: that Titanic. They made the ship very strong, and they were so assured that all the big men, they, they were on board that Titanic ship. There was first journey, and immediately Atlantic Ocean they smashed. That's a great incidence.

Therefore this is a fact, that you may arrange everything very nicely, according to your best knowledge, but if God is unfavorable, then you cannot do it. Daiva. Na ca daiva paraṁ balam. Therefore it is said there is no other superior strength than daiva. One has to accept this.

Go on.

Pradyumna: "In the . . . and in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam it is stated that a man takes his next body by daiva-netreṇa, which means by the supervision of the authority of the Supreme. In an ordinary sense, daiva . . ."

Prabhupāda: Daiva-netreṇa. So we have to get our body next according to the superior, daiva. Superior means God's, God's arrangement. God is witnessing what kind of body I will have.

Then?

Pradyumna: "In an ordinary sense, daiva is explained as destiny. Daiva supervision gives us a body selected from 8,400,000 forms."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Pradyumna: "The choice does not depend on our selection . . ."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Pradyumna: ". . . but is awarded to us according to our destiny."

Prabhupāda: You cannot say that, "I am Indian. I have got my love for India, and I'll get again birth as Indian leader." You . . . you may get birth in India because you have got strong attachment, but it may not be as leader. It may be as cats and dogs. Or cows or goat. Then you'll be sent to the slaughterhouse, you, even though you are Indian. Or any country, American . . .

So these are simply sentiments. This is, this is, there is no use . . . but people do not know this science. They think that, "I am doing right as philanthropist, as nationalist, as . . ." But you . . . he, he forgets that he's under the full control of material nature. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). You cannot plan. The ultimate plan is sanctioned by God, or by His agent, the prakṛti. You cannot make your plan. You get the result of your present activity. Karma phala.

Go on.

Pradyumna: "If our body at present is engaged in the activities of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then it is guaranteed that we will have at least a human body in our next life. A human being engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, even if unable to complete the course of bhakti yoga, is allowed take birth in the higher division of human society so that he can automatically further his advancement in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Therefore all bona fide activities in Kṛṣṇa consciousness are amṛta, or permanent."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Amṛta. Bhakti-rasāmṛta.

(aside) Aiye doctor saheb. Aiye, baithiye. (Please come doctor. Please come, sit down.) What you . . .? Sit down.

Pradyumna: "This is the subject matter of The Nectar of Devotion."

Prabhupāda: Go on.

Pradyumna: "This eternal engagement in bhakti-rasa can be understood by a serious student upon studying The Nectar of Devotion. Adoption of bhakti-rasa, or Kṛṣṇa consciousness, will immediately bring one to an auspicious life, free from anxieties, and will bless one with transcendental existence, thus minimizing the value of liberation. Bhakti-rasa itself is sufficient to produce a feeling of liberation because it attracts the attention of the Supreme Lord, Kṛṣṇa. Generally . . ."

Prabhupāda: Bhakti-rasa is better than liberation, mukti. Because generally, the Māyāvādī philosophers, jñāni-sampradāya, they consider mukti means to merge into the spiritual existence, Brahman. Brahmā-sayujya-mukti, to . . . to merge into the impersonal Brahman effulgence of the Absolute.

They consider it that is the highest. And the Buddha philosophers, they think to make all these activities zero, śūnyavādī. Dismantle. Because on account of this combination of matter—earth, water, fire, air, ether—this body's made, and the body is subjected to pains and pleasure on account of this mixture.

So Buddha philosophy is that you dismantle this mixture. Let earth go to the earth portion and water go to the water portion. Then there is no existence of the body, and there is no pains and pleasure. Make it zero. This is called śūnyavādī. And the Māyāvādī, their philosophy is that stop this variegatedness. We are suffering pains and pleasure within this material world on account of these varieties. So these varieties, they are on . . . built up on the foundation of the Supreme Spirit. So merge into the Supreme Spirit and get out of these varieties. This is their philosophy. So the Buddha philosophy or the Māyāvāda philosophy, they're almost one, because their ultimate goal is to make things zero.

But our philosophy is different. Our philosophy is that as there are varieties in this material world, there are varieties in the spiritual world. That varieties. Just like the sky. In the sky there are varieties. There are different kinds of planets, floating in the sky. Ordinarily seeing, in daytime we see the sky is vacant. How it is vacant? It is not vacant. It is the defect of my eyes that I cannot see the varieties. The vari . . . at night we can see the varieties. There are so many planets, so many stars. And each of them full of varieties. Just like this planet.

It is, we learn from the śāstra, yasya prabhā prabhavato jagad-aṇḍa-koṭi-koṭiṣv aśeṣa-vasudādhi bhinnam (Bs. 5.40). There are innumerable universes. This universe is one only. And each and every universe there are millions of planets. And each of them has got special significance. Just like this Moon planet, the Sun planet, this Earth planet, each one has got significance. Here, the bodies are earthly. In the Sun planet, the bodies are fire, fiery. Similarly in the Moon planet, the bodies are different. Each and every planet.

They do not know. They want to go with this body to the Moon planet. That is not possible. Just like if you want to live in the water with this body, that is not possible. You have to get a body suitable for living in the water. So that you have to prepare. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, yānti deva-vratā devān (BG 9.25).

These people are going to the Moon planet. Trying to go. They have not gone. But they do not know that with this body they cannot live there. That is not possible. They are . . . they might be going to the Moon planet in the deserted portion. And they're coming back. But Moon planet is not desert. We get information. It is one of the heavenly planet. So these . . . they are not going to the right place. That we have suggested in many places.

So anyway, there are varieties. As there are varieties within this material world, similarly there are varieties in the spiritual world. This material world is only reflection of the spiritual world. So unless we merge into, unless we get shelter in one of the planets of the spiritual world, if we simply merge into the Brahman effulgence, we cannot stay there for long.

Just like in the sky. If you simply fly your aeroplane only in the sky, you don't get any shelter in any planet, you'll have to come back again. You'll have to come back again. You cannot stay in the sky. Similarly, those who are merging into the Brahman effulgence, they cannot stay there, because we, as living entity, we want a varieties.

Just like when I was, when I was traveling in the . . . everyone has got experience, either sky or on the water. Though . . . and for weeks together, simply water, water. And the, on board the ship it become very much sickness. Is called sea-sickness. As soon as there is some land visible, "Oh, there is land again." Because we want varieties.

So those who are trying to merge into the variety-less Brahman effulgence, they cannot stay there. That information we get from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, āruhya kṛccheṇa paraṁ padaṁ tataḥ patanti adhaḥ: after great perseverance, austerity, penances, they merge into the Brahman effulgence, but they again fall down. They again fall down.

So that is not our ultimate goal. The ultimate goal is to take shelter under the lotus feet of the Lord. Āruhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padaṁ tataḥ. Ye 'nye 'ravindākṣa vimukta-māninas (SB 10.2.32). Simply to concoct that, "I become . . . I have become liberated," and, that . . . Ye 'nye 'ravindākṣa vimukta-māninaḥ tvayy asta-bhāvād aviśuddha-buddhayaḥ.

They, those who are thinking that they have become liberated simply by merging into the Brahman effulgence, they are aviśuddha-buddhayaḥ; they are still, their intelligence is not very clear, not purified. Why?

Now, although they have gone there, and thinking that they are liberated, āruhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padaṁ patanti (SB 10.2.32), they'll fall down. They cannot remain there, because there is no varieties. And our life, because we are living entity, we want varieties. Without varieties it is hackneyed. We cannot stay there. Therefore they fall down. Those who merge into the Brahman effulgence, they fall down.

Prabhupāda: Go on.

Pradyumna: Therefore a bhakta does not accept the Brahman, brahmānanda. Brahmānanda, they know. Brahmānanda is, there is brahmānanda. That is liberation from the material ānanda. But unless one is engaged in sevānanda, service of the Lord, this brahmānanda will not be sufficient to keep him in the spiritual world.

Prabhupāda: Go on.

Pradyumna: "Generally neophyte devotees are anxious to see Kṛṣṇa, or God, but God cannot be seen or known by our present materially blunt senses. The process of devotional service, as it is recommended in The Nectar of Devotion, will gradually elevate one from the material condition of life to the spiritual status, wherein the devotee becomes purified of all designations. The senses can then become uncontaminated, being constantly in touch with bhakti-rasa."

"When the purified senses are employed in the service of the Lord, one becomes situated in bhakti-rasa life, and any action performed for the satisfaction of Kṛṣṇa in this transcendental bhakti-rasa stage of life can be relished perpetually."

"When one is thus engaged in devotional service, all varieties of rasas or mellows turn into eternity. In the beginning one is trained according to the principles of regulation under the guidance of the ācārya, or spiritual master. And gradually, when one is elevated, devotional service becomes automatic and spontaneous eagerness to serve Kṛṣṇa."

"There are twelve kinds of rasas, as will be ex . . ."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like we have seen, we have experience. Sometimes the car becomes blocked. But some fellow pushes it. We have got this experience. What is called that? Chocked up? Then you get, get down and push the car and (makes sound) brut-brut-brut-brut-brut, goes. Similarly the bhakti-rasa is there in everyone's heart. Nitya-siddha kṛṣṇa-bhakti. Because we, we are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa.

Just like father and son. A father and son may be separate for many, many, many, many years. But as soon as they meet together, again the same affection comes. Again the same affection comes. Wife and husband. Therefore sannyāsī is strictly prohibited to see his wife, because there is staunch affection. By meeting, again that affection may come. He may fall down. Therefore strictly prohibited, at least. Other members can be seen, but not the wife.

So the fact is that we have got devotion for Kṛṣṇa. That is fact. But some way or other, we are separated and we have forgotten. So as soon as, by this regulative principle, by the order of the spiritual master, by the injunction of the śāstras, we begin devotional service . . .

That, that, just like our students do here. They are offering ārātrika. They're offering dress, offering garland. These are the items of arcana—hearing about Him, chanting about Him. This devotional service is the pushing process. Pushing process. And as soon as the energy comes, then automatically: (makes noise) brut-brut-brut. No more pushing. Automatically. This pushing process is required.

So just to invoke or revive the dormant Kṛṣṇa consciousness, therefore this bhakti process has to be . . . and Kṛṣṇa also says, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ (BG 18.55). If we . . . because the simple process is: if you understand Kṛṣṇa tattvataḥ, tattvataḥ, in truth, then your life is successful. As soon as you understand Kṛṣṇa tattvataḥ, then tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). You don't . . . won't have again in this material world. Don't get any material body. You go back to home, back to Godhead.

And this tattvataḥ, to understand Kṛṣṇa tattvataḥ, you have to take to the devotional service. This jñāna process or the karma process or the yoga process, it can push you little further. But . . . just like if you push the car little farther, but unless the energy of the car comes into action, this car will not go. Simply pushing is not sufficient. The car must come to his energy automatically. Then it will go. So that process is bhakti. Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi (BG 18.55).

All right. We shall discuss tomorrow. (break)

Lady devotee: . . . in the Moon planet, are their bodies like of a more subtle nature so that if they did go there, they wouldn't be able to see them?

Prabhupāda: Eh? No. You can see them. They have got material body.

Lady devotee: We could see them with our eyes?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Why not? The body . . . just like in the water, the bodies of the aquatics are different, but you can see them. Why not? If, if, if it is not visible, how you are seeing the Moon planet? You are seeing the Moon planet. So it is visible, not invisible.

Our point is that these people . . . first of all, whether they are going to the Moon planet, that is doubtful. At least, I am doubtful. Because we get information from the śāstra that there is a planet which is called Rāhu. That is very near to Moon. And that Rāhu sometimes comes in front of the Moon planet, and that is called candragrahāṇa, moon, lunar eclipse. So that . . . that Rāhu planet is dark. So they might be going to this Rāhu planet, not to the Moon planet. Maybe. Because that is very near.

Moon planet is heavenly planet. Heavenly planet. There, there demigods, they live. So we get this information. Or just like if somebody comes to the . . . this earthly planet and drops in the Arabian desert, he may conclude that this is desert. But there is Europe, America and nice cities and nice bungalows, but he has no chance to see them. So these people are going. They had no chance. Maybe they are also diverting them to the deserted portion of the Moon. They are also intelligent, that "These people are coming from earthly planet unauthorized. So let them diverted to the deserted portion." There are so many things.

So therefore . . . because if Moon planet is heavenly planet, they're more intelligent than you. If you have got some machine to reach there, they have got some machine to divert you. Why not think like that, that "These rascals are coming here without any immigration license. (laughter) Let them be diverted to the deserted portion, and disappointed, they'll go back"? So many things are there. Therefore they are not successful. Neither they'll be ever successful. Take it. I may die, but you take it rightly: they'll never be successful. I have already written these things in my Easy Journey to Other Planets. This is childish. It is not possible.

Devotee: This . . . is there earth in their bodies, or is their body made out of air?

Prabhupāda: No. These bodies are five elements: earth, air, water, air, fire, ether. The subtle body, mind, intelligence and ego. So in some planet the earthly portion may be major, the fire portion may be major. In some planet the ether portion may be major. But they're all material bodies. They're material bodies. They're not spiritual bodies. Spiritual body is within.

Within the universe, anywhere you go, you get the material body, and according to the body, the duration of life is different. Just like a germ's body, that is also material body. And a human body, that is also material body. But a germ takes birth and dies within second or minute; we live for a hundred years. Both of them material bodies. Similarly, Brahmā has got also material body. Those who are living in the Moon planet, they are also material body. In the Sun planet, they have got material . . .

But different varieties. They live ten thousand years of their . . . daiva. Ten thousand. Daiva means our one six months equal to one day there. Such ten thousand years they live. That is calculated in the Bhagavad-gītā: sahasra-yuga-paryantam ahar yad brahmaṇo viduḥ (BG 8.17). So that is twelve hours. Sahasra-yuga. These four yugas, Satya, Tretā, Dvāpara yugas, they're forty-three lakhs of years. And multiply it by one thousand, that becomes Brahmā's twelve hours.

So according to the different planet, according to the orbit, the time duration, the . . . everything is different. A ant's hundred years and my hundred years not the same. It is relative. Atomic. According to the body, according to the size . . . the, the world, the scientific world also accepts relative world . . . (break)

Your assets of pious activities is finished, then you come back again. Instead of going back to home, you come back again to this Earth. Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30). Going back. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, ei rūpe brahmāṇḍo bhramite kono bhāgyavān jīva.

In this way, we are wandering from one life to another, one planet to another. If one is fortunate, he gets the clue of devotional service and makes his life perfect and goes back to home, back to . . . yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramaṁ mama (BG 15.6). "One who goes to My abode, he never comes back." This is the perfection.

(aside) Doctor, sir, you are a scientist. So how do you think our explanation? Does it tally with your scientific . . .?

Guest (Indian man): Our science has not come to this stage, to explain all these things.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Science has no explanation actually.

Guest: For material men like us it is not possible to accept the Vedas, because we do not know; I do not see. It may not be there. But all we can say that we are still in the dark or ignorant about the . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: But we have to take knowledge from superior authority. I am always not in knowledge. That is my position. But we take knowledge from superior authority. So we are taking knowledge from Kṛṣṇa, the most superior authority.

(break) . . . our Vedic system. It is advised, tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). That is the system. Just like you are a medical man. To acquire your knowledge, you had to accept the medical college, the professors.

So this is natural. If we want to know something which is not, or which is unknown to me, then we have to accept a guru, a superior man. Guru means superior man. Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet. Guru means "heavy," or "superior." That is the law.

So our process of Vedic knowledge is that we get knowledge from the superior just like Brahmā, Lord Brahmā. He's the first, original creature within this universe. And he got knowledge from God, Kṛṣṇa, the Absolute. The Vedas means the knowledge which he heard . . .

Tene brahma hṛdā ādi-kavaye. So there is sampradāya. Brahmā imparted this knowledge to Nārada. Nārada imparted this knowledge to Vyāsadeva. Evaṁ paramparā. That . . . this is our process of knowledge. We get knowledge from the superior. Everyone gets knowledge from the superior. Nobody gets knowledge automatically. That is not possible.

So things which are beyond the perception of our senses, how we can get that knowledge? By our mental speculation, it is not . . . never perfect. We give sometimes this example: Just like we, if we want to know who is my father, that is not possible to know simply by mental speculation. If we approach the authority, mother, we get the knowledge immediately.

So knowledge from the authority is perfect. Knowledge by mental speculation is always imperfect. This is our conclusion. If you get knowledge, any knowledge, from the perfect, that knowledge is perfect. And if you get knowledge from imperfect, that knowledge is always imperfect. This is our process. Therefore the Vedas says, tad vijñānārthaṁ gurum eva abhigacchet. One must approach the superior who is in knowledge. Then he gets the knowledge.

(break) . . . sometimes disagree. But the . . . our point is very strong, that you cannot get perfect knowledge from imperfect person. That is not possible. That's a fact. You can get knowledge only from the perfect. That is real knowledge. The modern scientific knowledge, taking perfection. The next year, again changes. "This theory is changed." So they, they say that, "This is advancement. We are making progress." This means that whatever knowledge you are making your basis, that is imperfect. Progress means then you have to go to the perfect. That means the knowledge which you possessed, that was imperfect.

Again you say: "So from imperfect platform we are going to the perfect." But if we get from the perfect this knowledge, then we get perfect knowledge, from the perfect person. Perfect person means he does not commit mistake, he is not illusioned, his senses are not imperfect, and he does not cheat. This is the four points of perfection.

Cheating propensity's there. To the imperfect person, there is cheating propensity. He knows that this point, "I'm not very clear," but still he gives some idea, that is cheating. There are so many . . . Darwin's theory, others. "Perhaps," "It may be." Like this. These words are there, used. So what is the use of this "perhaps"? That means imperfect knowledge. "It may be. There is something missing." So how we can believe all this imperfect knowledge?

Now we don't take this knowledge, "perhaps," "maybe." Just like in the śāstra it is said, jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi. There are 900,000's forms of aquatic life, 900,000's. In the Vedas it is said. It doesn't say one more or two less. Nine hundred thousand. Jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi sthāvarā lakṣa-viṁśati kṛmayo rudra-saṅkhyakā (Padma Purāṇa), the living entities. So Veda, that is Vedic knowledge. Veda means knowledge, perfect knowledge.

So this is the process. Our Vedic civilization, all the great ācāryas, teachers, they accept knowledge from the Vedas. Because we accept it Veda is perfect. Sometimes they say that Vedas are also written by human beings. No. It is not written by human being. It is heard. Therefore it is called śruti. So tene brahma hṛdā ādi-kavaye (SB 1.1.1). The knowledge, Vedic knowledge, was first impregnated by the Supreme Lord in the heart of Brahmā. (break) (end)