760618 - Interview B - Toronto

Conversations by Date, 1976

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

Listen to a 'Nectar Drop' created from this Lecture

760618I2-TORONTO - June 18, 1976 - 100:57 Minutes

(Interview with Professors O'Connell, Motilal and Shivaram)

Prabhupāda: Yes?

Viśvakarmā: Professor O'Connell came over to the temple when this . . . some man came, Ted Patrick, he came to Toronto last year—I think we told you about it—and he took one of our devotees and deprogrammed her. There was big publicity in the paper for an entire week. So Professor O'Connell came forward and spoke on behalf of our movement, saying that he felt that it was a bona fide system of Vaiṣṇavism. And he came to the temple and assisted us.

Prabhupāda: O'Connell knows me from a such long time.

Viśvakarmā: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. We first met in Harvard University. Next he saw me in London, Bhaktivedanta Manor. I think Boston also.

Viśvakarmā: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He's interested in Vaiṣṇava philosophy.

Viśvakarmā: Yes, he wrote his thesis on Caitanya Vaiṣṇavism.

Prabhupāda: So he has got his doctorate?

Viśvakarmā: Yes. He's bringing one other professor with him. I can't remember his name. He's rather important. He just got a post at Oxford University, has been granted, er, uh, from Oxford they've asked him to come from Toronto to there. So he'll also be with Professor O'Connell.

Satsvarūpa: This is Professor Shivaram from McMaster University.

Prabhupāda: I think I saw you first, before this. Thank you. But I . . . (aside) Light on.

Indian man: This is Jyotsama, Mrs. Jyotsama; this is Mrs. Mukherjee. This is my wife.

Prabhupāda: Mrs. Mukherjee, you're also teacher here?

Mrs. Mukherjee: No, I am a student.

Prabhupāda: Student.

Mrs. Mukherjee: Graduate student.

Indian man: They're all from Bengal.

Prabhupāda: Oh. Kothar theke elen? (Where are you from?)

Indian woman (1): Ami to Banaras . . . (I am from Banaras . . .)

Prabhupāda: Banaras! Apni? (Banaras and you?)

Indian woman (2): Delhi theke. (From Delhi.)

Prabhupāda: Delhi theke? (From Delhi?)

Indian woman (2): Hmm.

Prabhupāda: Delhir kothay? (Where in Delhi?)

Indian woman (2): Delhi te amder dadara thaken, oi South Delhi te. Age Karal Bage chilam amra . . . (My elder brothers are now living in the South side of Delhi. Before this, we were in Karal Bag . . .)

Prabhupāda: Accha.

Indian woman (2): Karal Bage ekta math ache janen to? (Do you know there is a matha in Karal Bagh?)

Prabhupāda: Hya ache. (Yes there is.)

Indian woman (2): Amar maa okhane yan arki . . . (Actually my mother visits there . . .)

Prabhupāda: Gaudiya math ekta ache. (There is a Gaudiya matha.)

Indian woman (2): Hya Gaudiya math. (Yes, Gaudiya matha.)

Prabhupāda: Ami din katak chilam oikhane. (I stayed there for a few days.)

Indian woman (2): Accha! Ami oi pray kay bachor holo baire achi, ekbar madhye giyechilam. (Okay. I am staying outside since some years, but I visited once during this time.)

Prabhupāda: Hm. Amar ek gurubhai . . . (One of our godbrothers . . .) (aside) So you can take this pot this side. (to devotees) So what I was talking just now about this motorcar race?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. This breakneck civilization. Just like dog, they're very, very busy. If you watch a dog, sometimes you'll see he's running here, running there, running here, running there. But no credit. Similarly, the modern scientists, they're running, running, running, very busy, but simply patchwork. They have no conclusion.

Prabhupāda: I was talking of these cars. The dog is running on legs, and they are running on cars. So, (laughs) actually what is the difference? This is advancement of civilization, that the dog is running for nothing, here and there, on legs, and human being is running on nice car. Does it mean there is advance in civilization? If we keep the human being like cats and dogs, without any advancement of knowledge . . . the cats and dogs, they cannot accept any advanced knowledge. That is not possible. Similarly, if human society is kept in darkness without any advanced knowledge, without any knowledge of the aim of life and without any knowledge what is the meaning of human life, they'll remain as cats and dogs. So as cats and dogs, if they are practiced to run here and there, either on legs or on cars, is that advancement of civilization?

Indian man: Swāmī, there was a news item in the paper last year, some research scholars at Jesuit University performed some experiments, and then they said that Kṛṣṇa consciousness people lose initiative for doing things. They don't fight the battle of life. It takes away the initiative from them. It was published in papers.

Prabhupāda: No, that's not the fact. It is misunderstanding. We are actually struggling for achievement of the highest goal of life. Otherwise, why we are writing so many books? It is for the human beings. And they are being accepted. It is not for the cats and dogs. This Bhāgavatam is not meant for the cats and dogs. So, vidyā bhāgavatāvadhi. In the beginning it is said, dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra paramo nirmatsarāṇāṁ satāṁ vāstavam vedyaṁ atra (SB 1.1.2). Atra śrīmad-bhāgavataṁ vāstava-vastu-vedyam, what is actual life. So we are struggling to give people what is actual life. Kṛṣṇa comes down to teach us what is actual life. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata (BG 4.7). When people become cats and dogs, dharmasya glāniḥ . . . dharmasya glāniḥ means cats and dogs, because in the cats and dog society there is no question of dharma. They simply jump over and enjoy life: eat, drink, be merry, enjoy eating, sleeping, sex and defense. That's all. So if human life is also trained up in a polished way, the same principles, then where is the difference between cats and dogs? Dog is thinking, "I am this body—hound, greyhound," and barking, "gow, gow." Similarly, if we remain like that, in the bodily concept of life that, "I am this body," "I am Indian," "I am American," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," then where is the difference between dog and ourself? The human life is meant for understanding that I am neither Hindu nor Muslim nor American nor Indian. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi. That is beginning of life. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. "And what is Brahman?" Then life begins. The cats and dogs, they cannot think that, "I am not this body; I am spirit soul." That is the beginning of Bhagavad-gītā. When Arjuna was thinking in the bodily concept of life, "My family, my brother," and so on, so on, so he declined to fight. So . . .

Viśvakarmā: Śrīla Prabhupāda, Professor O'Connell and his wife are here to see you.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, come on. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Take this. I saw you last in London, I think.

Prof. O'Connell: We did, at your suburban place.

Prabhupāda: Bhaktivedanta Manor, yes.

Prof. O'Connell: We were out for a morning walk. But you got out ahead of us, so Pradyumna and I did not quite catch you, but we followed your trail.

Prabhupāda: Pradyumna was there?

Prof. O'Connell: My wife was with me—you probably remember Kathleen O'Connell—and Professor and Mrs. Fendrick. Mr. Fendrick teaches at Ryerson University in Toronto. Mary Jane Fendrick.

Prabhupāda: So, if we keep the human society in darkness about the aim of life, that is not civilization. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum (SB 7.5.31). I think you understand Sanskrit. Svārtha-gatim, the real self-interest, is to go back to home, back to Godhead. For that purpose, the human life is given by nature as an opportunity in the cycle of birth and death. So if we don't take advantage of this human form of life, when we can realize God and go back to home, back to Godhead, then it is misused. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ (SB 7.5.31). They're enamored by the external energy of God, this material energy, and they are thinking that utilizing the material energy, the dog is running on his legs, and if he can run on motorcar, that is advancement. But the business is the running—without any purpose.

Indian man: Is it not better to run than to stand still and sleep?

Prabhupāda: No, running is not stopped, but running must be with some purpose, aim of life. That they do not know. They are missing the aim of life.

Indian man: I thought, Swāmījī, rajas is a better manifestation than tamas.

Prabhupāda: No, you have to go above rajas-tamaḥ. Rajas-tamaḥ means greediness and lust.

tadā rajas-tamo-bhāvāḥ

kāma-lobhādayaś ca ye

ceta etair anāviddhaṁ

sthitaṁ sattve prasīdati

(SB 1.2.19)

If you want peace and happiness, then you have to transcend the platform of rajas-tamaḥ and come to the platform of goodness. Then you have to transcend the goodness platform and come to the vāsudeva platform, Kṛṣṇa consciousness platform. This is progress. Tadā rajas-tamo-bhāvāḥ kāma-lobha. Rajas tama means kāma and lobha, endless greediness and endless lusty desires. That will keep us within the category of material existence. Mūḍhā janmani janmani aprāpya mām (BG 16.20). Then we remain mūḍha, life after life. That is not the aim of human life. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19). We take once type of body and struggle and again die, and again accept another, (people moving around) another type of body. There are 8,400,000 different types of body. This is going on. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. (aside) Find out this verse.

dehino 'smin yathā dehe

kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā

tathā dehāntara-prāptir

dhīras tatra na muhyati

(BG 2.13)

This is the beginning of spiritual education. One has to learn it that, "I'm not this body, I'm within this body, and I'm transmigrating from one body to another." That means repetition of birth, death, old age and disease. This is the main problem of life. So human life means to make a solution of these problems, not to be entangled with these problems again and again.

Indian man: The question is, one must be able to see if there's a problem. People don't see it as a problem.

Prabhupāda: Therefore Kṛṣṇa says: "Here is your problem: janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9)." (aside) Find out this verse.

Jayādvaita: Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi?

Prabhupāda: Yes, find out. This is knowledge. Advancement of knowledge means one must be able to see that what are the actual problems. Just like the scientists, the philosophers, they're trying to solve so many problems. But first of all, fix up what is the problem. Temporary problem, to make a solution, that is going on. But actual problem is this: na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). The soul is not destroyed, na jāyate na mriyate vā kadācit, at any time. One should be very prudent to see that "If I have no birth and no death, then what is this nonsense, birth and death?" That is knowledge. Why I am dying? Why there is birth problem? Why there is death problem? And as soon as there is birth problem, there is disease problem, there is old age problem. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says . . . what is the janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi?

Jayādvaita: It's in the list of items of knowledge, "The perception of the evil of birth, death, old age and disease."

Prabhupāda: Yes. And the cure, medicine, is also given, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). If you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then . . . everyone has to give up this body, but a person who is in thorough knowledge of Kṛṣṇa, then he, after giving up this body, he does not accept any more material body. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma. (aside) Find out this verse.

Jayādvaita: "One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world, but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna."

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is the solution. Therefore our only business should be to understand Kṛṣṇa. That is perfection of life. That makes the solution—tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma (BG 4.9). Our propaganda is how to understand Kṛṣṇa. And this yoga, Kṛṣṇa consciousness yoga, simply thinking of Kṛṣṇa, and try to understand Kṛṣṇa. That is explained:

mayy āsakta-manāḥ pārtha

yogaṁ yuñjan mad-āśrayaḥ

asaṁśayaṁ samagraṁ māṁ

yathā jñāsyasi tac chṛṇu

(BG 7.1)

"Without any doubt." And if you, asaṁśayaṁ samagraṁ mām, if you understand Kṛṣṇa, then tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti (BG 4.9). We are therefore requesting everyone, study Bhagavad-gītā as it is. Don't interpret. Don't screw out your concocted meaning. Then your life is successful. Every politician, every scholar, everyone is trying to screw out some meaning. That is the disease. But we say, we are begging people that, "You read Bhagavad-gītā as it is and try to understand it." Very simple thing. We haven't got to become very learned scholar. Our business is to go to you and request you, "Please read Bhagavad-gītā as it is. Don't try to interpret it." That is our preaching. That's all. Very simple. Because Bhagavad-gītā, the instruction is there, and we haven't got to manufacture anything. So as a peon, we carry only, "You please read it as it is." Or you try to explain as it is. And where is the explanation? Everything is clear. The beginning is:

dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre

samavetā yuyutsavaḥ

māmakāḥ pāṇḍavāś caiva

kim akurvata sañjaya

(BG 1.1)

Sañjaya is asking . . . Dhṛtarāṣṭra is asking Sañjaya that, "My sons and my brother's sons, both of them assembled together for fighting, then what they did do?" And they assembled in the dharma-kṣetre, Kurukṣetra. That place is still there, Kurukṣetra. You have been in India. And the Kurukṣetra station is there, and people are still going by thousands to Kurukṣetra as a dharma-kṣetra. So where is the difficulty to understand the meaning of these two words, dharma-kṣetre, kuru-kṣetre (BG 1.1)? Why you should interpret, "Kuru-kṣetre means this; dharma-kṣetre means this"? Why? Mislead others and mislead himself.

Indian man: It must be understood literally, you say.

Prabhupāda: Yes, why not? Suppose you have got some philosophy. So you can explain your philosophy differently. Why should you take Bhagavad-gītā and explain your philosophy? Is it honesty?

Indian man: All the ācāryas have been doing it.

Prabhupāda: No ācāryas are doing it. All lower-class men. No ācāryas do it. Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Nimbārka, these are ācāryas. Śaṅkarācārya, Caitanya, they never did it. Outsiders, who did not care for the authority of the ācārya, they did it. Otherwise, they are the ācārya sampradāya. They'll never do that. Ācāryavān puruṣo veda. Ācāryopāsanam. That is bona fide process. Ācāryopāsanam. Amānitvam adambhitvam (BG 13.8). Ācāryopāsanam. This is the process of knowledge. Evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). This is ācārya. Ācārya will never interpret things like that. You see Rāmānujācārya's comments on Bhagavad-gītā. Nothing changed. But in every śloka he has given evidence from the Vedas, from the Upaniṣads. Ācārya will never change.

Jayādvaita: In the list of items of knowledge, "approaching a bona fide spiritual master." Ācāryopāsanam.

Prabhupāda: This is ācārya.

Indian man (2): Swāmījī, you think bhakti is the solution to the problem of the world today?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, yes. That is your natural position. You are protected, and God is protector. That's a fact. You cannot live even for a moment without protection of God. So that is your position. That is explained by Caitanya Mahāprabhu: jīvera svarūpa haya nitya-kṛṣṇa-dāsa (CC Madhya 20.108). Perhaps you have read it in Caitanya-caritāmṛta. You have read Caitanya-caritāmṛta?

Indian man (2): Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, He immediately gives the definition and position of the living entity: jīvera svarūpa haya nitya-kṛṣṇa-dāsa. Sanātana Gosvāmī asked Him, "People glorify me that I am very learned scholar." Grāmya-vyavahāre kahe paṇḍita satya kari' māni (CC Madhya 20.100). You understand Bengali? Grāmya-vyavahāre kahe paṇḍita satya kori māni: "My these neighbors, they call me paṇḍita. And I accept, 'Yes, I am paṇḍita.' But I am such a paṇḍita," āpanāra hitāhita kichui nā jāni, "I do not know what is my aim of life and what is good for me. I'm such a paṇḍita." Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu answered, 'ke āmi,' 'kene āmāya jāre tāpa-traya' apāni ihā nāhi jāni kemane hita haya (CC Madhya 20.102). So mistake is, Caitanya Mahāprabhu immediately pointed out, that "You are learned, of course; there is no doubt. But you are submitting yourself as others . . ." Now He said that "You have questioned that ke āmi, 'Who I am?' " So He said that, "You are servant of God. That is your real identification." Then He begins to teach him.

So our position is servant of God. Eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). One singular number and plural number, ceta, eternal. The singular number cetana is the maintainer, and the plural number cetana is the maintained. So our position is maintained. Just like father maintains the children. That is natural. And children's duty is to remain obedient to the father. That's all. That is bhakti. Then the family is all right. Family means father, mother and children. They're missing . . . the children they are seeing, the mother they are seeing, and they are saying there is no father. This is modern civilization. How is that? The children are there, the mother is there. How is that there is no father? What is this conclusion? A sane man's conclusion is if the children are there, the mother is there, there must be father. Without father, how mother can beget children? Is there any experience that without father, mother has given birth to children? The modern civilization is, mother is material nature and we are all sons, born in the womb of the material nature. So who is the father? That inquiry is lacking. But there is father, undoubtedly. And the answer is given in the Bhagavad-gītā: sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya (BG 14.4). (aside:) Find out this verse. Sambhavanti mūrtayaḥ tāsāṁ mahad yonir brahma, ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā. Bījo 'haṁ sarva-bhūtānām (BG 7.10).

Jayādvaita: "It should be understood that all species of life, O son of Kuntī, are made possible by birth in this material nature, and that I am the seed-giving father."

Prabhupāda: That's it. And that is the root cause of all problems, that they are missing the father. He is the maintainer. Godless. Is it possible that the mother gives birth to a child without father? Is there any experience in the history of the world, the mother has given birth to a child without connection with the father? They say: "We have not seen father." That does not mean there is no father. A child may not have seen his father. There are many children, but that does not mean that he has no father. There must be father. And . . . so if there is father, no father, how you know it? Suppose you have not seen. You ask the mother, "Mother, am I born without father?" Mother says: "No, you have got your father." Or she can show, "Here is your father." So you cannot understand the father by your research work. You have to take the knowledge from the mother, authority. There is no other way. You cannot make any experiment or research knowledge who is father. That is not possible. You'll never understand who is father. You have to take the authority of the Vedas to understand what is God, or what is the supreme father. And here in the Bhagavad-gītā the supreme father personally is coming and teaching you, "I am the father." So what is the objection to accepting Him? All the ācāryas have accepted, as you spoke of the ācāryas. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has accepted. So what is my objection? That means I am defying all the ācāryas. All the Vedas says kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam. Ete cāṁśa-kalāḥ puṁsaḥ kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ (BS 5.1). And this is supported by the ācāryas.

(pause)

Prof. O'Connell: Swāmījī, could you speak a bit about the proper attitude of the child towards the father? Is it one of fear, respect, love?

Prabhupāda: Love. Basic relation, love. Father loves the child, natural. The child also naturally loves the father. This is natural relationship. Father works whole day and night for maintaining the children, family, and if the child out of love takes his lozenges and offers to the father, "Father, it is very nice, you take," father will be very glad, "Oh, yes, yes, I'll take." Father does not require the lozenges, but out of love the small child offering a little lozenges, father is very glad: "Oh, this child loves me." So Kṛṣṇa says, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati tad aham aśnāmi (BG 9.26). This is relationship. Even the poorest man, he can offer to Kṛṣṇa a little flower, little fruit, and Kṛṣṇa says: "Yes, if it is offered with love, I accept it." That is the relation. What Kṛṣṇa has got to do with little flower and little fruits? But He accepts, tad aham aśnāmi. He said. Bhakty-upahṛtam (BG 9.26): "Because he has brought it with love and devotion, I accept it." If the supreme father accepts from you something, then your life is successful.

Prof. O'Connell: The human children often play with their fathers. Is playfulness the proper attitude for . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no. That is not play, that is real love. Just like father sometimes becomes a horse, and the child rides over and father enjoys. There is a story about Prime Minister Gladstone. He was prime minister, so many people come to him. So one man came and the doorman said: "He is now busy. Wait." So he was waiting for one hour. Then he became impatient; he wanted to see what this gentleman is doing. So he saw that he has become a horse, and his grandchild is driving him. So why the prime minister has become a horse to take back his grandchild on the back and enjoy? Is it a horse? This is out of love, enjoying. He was not wasting time. The other visitors were waiting. This is love. So to revive that natural life is the opportunity in human life. We have distributed our love in so many material things. Therefore Kṛṣṇa comes and directly speaks that, "You withdraw all these nonsense activities." Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam (BG 18.66). "Try to love Me. Then your life is successful." This is āśliṣya. Personally requested that "Why you are rotting in this material world of birth and death and manufacturing so many ways of life? You give up all this nonsense. Just surrender unto Me, you'll be happy." This is natural.

sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo

yato bhaktir adhokṣaje

ahaituky apratihatā

yenātmā samprasīdati

(SB 1.2.6)

This is first-class system of religion which teaches the followers how to love God. Yato bhaktir adhokṣaje. What kind of love? Ahaituky apratihatā: without any motive and without any impediment. Then he'll be pleased. Yenātmā samprasīdati. Then he'll be happy.

So we are after happiness, peacefulness. This is the only way.

bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ

sarva-loka-maheśvaram

suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānāṁ

jñātvā māṁ śāntim ṛcchati

(BG 5.29)

So the teachings are there, the process is there, and Caitanya Mahāprabhu is practical demonstration of the teachings. That is detected by Rūpa Gosvāmī. Namo mahā-vadānyāya kṛṣṇa-prema-pradāya te (CC Madhya 19.53). So we require kṛṣṇa-prema, love of God. So "You are so munificent that You are giving kṛṣṇa-prema. Kṛṣṇāya, You are Kṛṣṇa, we understand that You are Kṛṣṇa. You are personally giving kṛṣṇa-prema."

namo mahā-vadānyāya

kṛṣṇa-prema-pradāya te

kṛṣṇāya kṛṣṇa-caitanya-

nāmne gaura-tviṣe namaḥ

(CC Madhya 19.53)

Sarvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya also said like that.

vairāgya-vidyā-nija-bhakti-yogam-

śikṣārtham ekaḥ puruṣaḥ purāṇaḥ

śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya-śarīra-dhārī

kṛpāmbudhir yas tam ahaṁ prapadye

(CC Madhya 6.254)

So Kṛṣṇa comes Himself to teach what is God and what is the relationship with God. And people still mistakes. Therefore He comes as devotee, how to teach people how to approach Kṛṣṇa. These things are there. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, to understand Kṛṣṇa through Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Otherwise, it is very difficult. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye' (BG 7.3). And Caitanya Mahāprabhu especially appeared to give Kṛṣṇa. Therefore if we go through Caitanya Mahāprabhu, we understand Kṛṣṇa very quickly. And as soon as we understand Kṛṣṇa, we become liberated. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma (BG 4.9), the whole solution of all problems.

(pause)

Prof. O'Connell: Swāmījī, do you know Professor Bimal Motilal came in during your discourse?

Prabhupāda: Oh, (laughs) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Motilal. (converses in Hindi about family name) That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission, bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra (CC Adi 9.41). These things are unknown in the Western countries. So anyone who has taken birth in India, Bhārata-varṣa, they should make his . . . one should make his life perfect by assimilating all these śāstras and preach the resultant action to the outsiders. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission—pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi grāma (CB Antya-khaṇḍa 4.126). So you Indians, you are here, you assimilate the teachings of Gītā, Bhāgavatam, Bhagavad-gītā and Caitanya-caritāmṛta, and help these people. That is India's business.

Mrs. O'Connell: Swāmījī, would you say something about the place of women in your movement?

Prabhupāda: There is no distinction between man and woman. That is clearly said in the Bhagavad-gītā. Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpā-yonayaḥ striyo śūdrās tathā vaiśyāḥ (BG 9.32). The first is mentioned, striya. Striyaḥ śūdrās tathā vaiśyāḥ. These classes are understood to be less intelligent—woman, śūdra and the vaiśyas. But Kṛṣṇa says, "No, even for them it is open." Because in the spiritual platform there is no such distinction, man, woman, or black, white, or big or small. No. Everyone is spirit soul. Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). Vidyā-vinaya-sampanne brāhmaṇe gavi hastini śuni caiva śva-pāke ca paṇḍitāḥ (BG 5.18). One who is actually learned, he is sama-darśinaḥ. He does not make any distinction. But so far our material body is concerned, there must be some distinction for keeping the society in order.

Mrs. O'Connell: The women could become paṇḍitas, then.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim. Not only come, she can also attain perfection. There is no such restriction. Kṛṣṇa said.

Mrs. O'Connell: Do you have any paṇḍitas in the Western movement, women?

Prabhupāda: There are so many Western woman, girls, in our society. They are chanting, dancing, taking to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Many. Of course, because superficially, bodily, there is some distinction, so we keep women separately from men, that's all. Otherwise, the rights are the same.

Prof. O'Connell: Is it possible, Swāmījī, for a woman to be a guru in the line of disciplic succession?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Jāhnavā devī was—Nityānanda's wife. She became. If she is able to go to the highest perfection of life, why it is not possible to become guru? But, not so many. Actually one who has attained the perfection, she can become guru. But man or woman, unless one has attained the perfection . . . yei kṛṣṇa-tattva-vettā sei guru haya (CC Madhya 8.128). The qualification of guru is that he must be fully cognizant of the science of Kṛṣṇa. Then he or she can become guru. Yei kṛṣṇa-tattva-vettā, sei guru haya. (break) In our material world, is it any prohibition that woman cannot become professor? If she is qualified, she can become professor. What is the wrong there? She must be qualified. That is the position. So similarly, if the woman understands Kṛṣṇa consciousness perfectly, she can become guru.

Indian man: Well, to understand Kṛṣṇa consciousness, do you not require adhikārī?

Prabhupāda: Adhikārī means he must agree to understand. That is adhikārī. But we do not agree. That is our fault.

Indian man: Is this agreement due to learning, or out of . . .?

Prabhupāda: No. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām (BG 18.66): you surrender, you become qualified. You agree, "Yes, I surrender, Kṛṣṇa says," then immediately you become qualified. But that you do not do. Kṛṣṇa is personally canvassing, but we are not agreeing. What can be done? If I say, with a bag of million dollars, "Take this bag," if you don't agree, then you remain poor man. But you agree, "Yes, without any labor I'm getting the million dollars. Well, all right." Kṛṣṇa says, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). To come to that Kṛṣṇa consciousness rightly and surrender to Kṛṣṇa, it takes many millions of births. But if one is intelligent, if this is the ultimate goal, that one has to come to this point, to surrender to Vāsudeva, why not do it immediately? That is intelligence. That is intelligence. Kṛṣṇa is canvassing. One has to take millions of births to come to this point, and Kṛṣṇa is personally promising, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi (BG 18.66). Why not take advantage? That means you do not agree. If you agree, the result is immediate. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam (BG 9.11). They are thinking, "Hah, Kṛṣṇa is also human being like me. Why shall I surrender to Him?" They are mūḍha. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ. Then remain a rascal. What can be done? We have got little independence, because we are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is fully independent. But because we are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, we have got little independence, so we can refuse. Although Kṛṣṇa canvassing, sarva-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66), we can refuse: "Why shall I surrender to You?" That is our misfortune. But if you agree, you get immediate result.

And therefore this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, to agree—ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). Because we have got so many nasty, dirty things within our heart, we cannot agree. But if you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, then we become cleansed in heart, and then agree. Those who are not agreeing, for them it is recommended, kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ (CC Adi 17.31). Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma eva kevalaṁ kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva nāsty eva gatir . . . (CC Adi 17.21). You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Because Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's name is not different, by association of Kṛṣṇa you become purified. Then you understand, vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ (BG 7.19). You become the greatest mahātmā: "Oh, Kṛṣṇa is everything." Then you surrender. You have to surrender—today or tomorrow or many millions of births after. You have to do that. Otherwise, you'll be troubled by the laws of material nature.

daivī hy eṣā guṇa-mayī

mama māyā duratyayā

mām eva ye prapadyante

māyām etāṁ taranti te

(BG 7.14)

So we have to come to that point, how to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. That is nature's way, pulling by the ear, "Come here, do this." Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ (BG 3.27). This will go on as long as you are not agreeing to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. And as soon as you surrender to Kṛṣṇa, there is no more infringement by māyā. (break) (Bengali to Prof. Motilal) You understand Bengali? So the process is going on by the laws of nature to give us different types of trouble. The main trouble is janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi (BG 13.9). It will go on, unless we surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Better surrender in this life and be perfect; then things are all right. And what is the benefit of our so-called independence? If we declare that we are independent of the laws of nature, is it possible? Is it possible? Then where is your independence? Why you are declaring falsely independence? If you declare yourself independent of God, then you become dependent on māyā. Just like the criminals: they don't care for the laws of the government, they become under the laws of the prison house, that's all. There is no question of independence. Either you remain free or in the prison house, you are under the laws of government. So why falsely declaring independent and don't care for the government? Outlaws. That is called māyā, false prestige, which is not possible.

Guest (1): Swāmījī, you came to New York, I believe, in 1965. Can you remember some of your first impressions of North American society when you came here? Did you feel it was ripe for Kṛṣṇa consciousness at that time?

Prabhupāda: No. I was not very much hopeful. That I wrote one poetry, that "Kṛṣṇa, why You have brought me in this country? What can I do? How I shall convince them how they will understand the philosophy? So, but because You have brought me here, must be there is some purpose. So all right. You make me dance as You like." That poetry, I . . . in Boston, Commonwealth Pier, on the sea. I came by ship. So I wrote that poetry, that I do not know what for I have come here, why Kṛṣṇa has brought me here. As soon as I shall say that there is no illicit sex, no meat-eating, no drinking and no gambling, they'll say: "You go home. Don't talk." I knew this. Still I attempted. But these boys kindly accepted. I never made any compromise. I said: "These are the first condition to become Kṛṣṇa conscious: no illicit sex, no meat-eating, no intoxication, no gambling. Are you agreed?" They say yes, then come. If I would have made compromise, "Yes, whatever you like you can do," no, I never did. Ask them. I never did. Some of them left, that "It is too difficult. The primary necessities of life are denied here." (chuckles) But these boys, they accepted, and therefore it is improving. They are young men, they have got all the desires for material enjoyment, but they have sacrificed everything. That is tapasya. Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena śuddhyed sattvam (SB 5.5.1). If you want to purify your existence, then you must practice tapasya. Tapasā brahmacaryeṇa yamena niyamena (SB 6.1.13). That is tapasya. First beginning is brahmacarya. Therefore according to Vedic system, brahmacārī first—to teach how to become brahmacārī. Brahmacārī guru-gṛhe vasan dānto guror hitam (SB 7.12.1). The children should be trained up in such a way that they will be able to control the senses and act only for the benefit of guru. That is brahmacārī. They have no personal interest.

So they are collecting daily not less than one lakh of rupees, up to five lakh, these boys. But their expenditure at my direction. Not a single paisa they can spend in their own discretion. They are laboring hard to get this collection, but the money is mine. This is the arrangement. Now in Hyderabad they immediately require two lakhs. The money is there, they can take it, but they are asking by telegram my permission. I'll give them, but this is the arrangement. Guror hitam, brahmacārī. Vasan dānto guror hitam. So the prescription is there, the formula is there, the literature is there. If we take this culture, then the whole human society will be happy. That is our mission.

Prof. O'Connell: Do you find, Swāmījī, that the mood of the young people in North America is the same now as it was in '65, or has it changed?

Prabhupāda: That you can see.

Prof. O'Connell: Are they still willing to join in the same way?

Prabhupāda: Yes, many young boys are joining daily.

Viśvakarmā: Since we got the new building here, we have twelve new brahmacārīs that are being initiated this evening.

Prabhupāda: But to accept this creed requires some big qualification. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says in the Caitanya . . . ei rūpe brahmāṇḍa bhramite kona bhāgyavān jīva guru-kṛṣṇa-prasāde pāya bhakti-latā-bīja (CC Madhya 19.151). Some selected, fortunate persons can accept, kona bhāgyavān. Not everybody.

manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu

kaścid yatati siddhaye

yatatām api siddhānāṁ

kaścin māṁ vetti tattvataḥ

(BG 7.3)

It is not very easy thing to accept Kṛṣṇa as everything and surrender there. It is not so easy. But it is possible if one is fortunate. Kona bhāgyavān. But anyone can accept it. What is the difficulty? But they'll not do it. Therefore unfortunate. What is the difficulty, Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Does Kṛṣṇa say anything extraordinary that we cannot perform? Nothing. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). Four things, "You just think of Me always, man-manā. You just become My devotee, worship Me and offer your obeisances unto Me." Four things. Where is the difficulty? Anyone can think of Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare, Hare Rāma. Where is the loss? Is there any loss? Is there any tax if you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa? Just make an experiment and see the result. There is no loss, there is no tax, there is no botheration. Why don't you do it? Not at all difficult. If you compare with other system, this is the easiest. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. The Gosvāmīs did. Kṛṣṇotkīrtana-gāna-nartana-parau. They taught us how to do it. Kṛṣṇotkīrtana-gāna-nartana-parau. They did this, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa and dancing. And the love was coming. Premāmṛtāmbho-nidhī dhīrādhīra-jana-priyau priya-karau nirmatsarau pūjitau śrī-caitanya-kṛpā-bharau bhuvi bhuvo bhārāvahantārakau vande rūpa-sanātanau raghu-yugau śrī-jīva-gopālakau. In the morning we have . . . always we have got kīrtana, in morning especially. You can see how these boys dancing and chanting only Hare Kṛṣṇa, how they are ecstatic. What is the difficulty? There is no difficulty. Chant, dance and take prasādam. Bās. Su-sukhaṁ kartum avyayam. In the Ninth Chapter: rāja-vidyā rāja-guhyam. Su-sukhaṁ kartum avyayam (BG 9.2). To execute this Kṛṣṇa consciousness business is very, very palatable and happy. And whatever you do, avyayam, that is your permanent asset. (aside) Read it.

Jayādvaita: "This knowledge is the king of education . . ."

Prabhupāda: No, Sanskrit.

Jayādvaita: Oh. Rāja-vidyā rāja-guhyam.

Prabhupāda: Pavitram idam uttamam.

Jayādvaita: Pavitram idam uttamaṁ pratyakṣāvagamaṁ dharmyaṁ su-sukhaṁ kartum avyayam.

Prabhupāda: Uttamam. Pratyakṣāvagamaṁ dharmyam. You can directly understand whether you are going forward. These boys, they are educated, they are coming from rich family—at least, in rich nation. They are not fools and rascals. Unless they feel pratyakṣa avagamam, how they can stick? Just like you are hungry, you are eating. Unless you feel that you are eating, "Yes, I am getting strength, I'm satisfying my appetite," then you can go on eating. It is like that. Pratyakṣāvagamaṁ dharmyam. You don't require to get certificate from others that, "I am eating. Whether I am satisfied?" You will feel. You don't require to take certificate from others. If you are actually eating, the result you will feel. That is pratyakṣa avagamaṁ dharmyam. Other process, you do not know whether you are actually making progress or not. You are simply going to the ritualistic ceremonies, but whether you are actually going forward, that you cannot understand. But you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, you will understand directly, "Yes, I'm making progress. What I was and what I am now?" Everyone will tell their life history. Pratyakṣam means "directly." Pratyakṣa avagamaṁ dharmyam. Asaṁśayaṁ samagraṁ māṁ yathā jñāsyasi tac chṛṇu (BG 7.1). These things are there. Asaṁśayam. There will be no doubt. Other process, you have doubt: "This man says that he's God. Whether he's God?" But when real God says, then there will be no doubt. Asaṁśayam.

(aside) So, give them prasāda. Take little prasādam. Thank you very much. So we are trying our best. So if you kindly cooperate with us, we'll get more encouragement. People will be more benefited.

Prof. O'Connell: Don't you have a gurukula in Texas?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Prof. O'Connell: Is there any chance of having a gurukula in Canada?

Prabhupāda: Why not? We can . . .

Prof. O'Connell: Nice city.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Gurukula means to teach them a way of life, that's all. Brahmacārī guru-gṛhe vasan dānta, how to control senses, the first business. Dānta. Śānta dānta, peaceful and controlling senses.

Prof. O'Connell: Swāmījī, if somebody is in the movement for several years and feels that he's not making progress and leaves, is he looked upon as a sinner or enemy? How do the devotees feel about persons like that?

Prabhupāda: Not like . . . just like in college, school, some student making rapid progress, some of them are a little slow. That does not mean that he should he rejected. He should be given chance. But if he follows the regulative principles, there is no chance of falling back. The regulative principle is that you refrain from these activities: illicit sex, meat-eating, intoxication and gambling, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. That will make him perfect. Very easy. We don't say no sex; we say illicit sex. So if you want sex, you become a gentleman, marry, and live like a gentleman. Why illicit sex? There are many gṛhastha devotee. Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu's direct associate, Nityānanda, He was a gṛhastha. Caitanya Mahāprabhu Himself was a gṛhastha. He married twice. First wife died, He married second wife. So gṛhastha is not rejected. Simply it is not that simply sannyāsīs will go back to home. No. Everyone can go. Striyaḥ śūdrās tathā vaiśyāḥ. They can go also. But one must be Kṛṣṇa conscious. Caitanya Mahāprabhu's recommendation is that you remain your place—don't try to change it artificially—but be Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is required. And that is also very easy, how to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Read Bhagavad-gītā As It Is, you become Kṛṣṇa conscious. At home or out of home, it doesn't matter. Sthāne sthitāḥ śruti-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ-manobhiḥ (SB 10.14.3). You remain in your situation, place, and śruti-gatāṁ tanu-vāk, and hear, just lend your aural reception of the words of Kṛṣṇa. So that day will come, Kṛṣṇa, who is ajita, you can conquer Him. Ajito 'pi jito 'py asi. Nobody can conquer Kṛṣṇa, but by this method, one can conquer Kṛṣṇa.

Guest (1): Swāmījī, would you know whether people who joined the movement in their older years are more likely to stay on than those who join when they are younger?

Prabhupāda: Not necessarily. Younger, older, there is no restriction.

Guest (1): It doesn't appeal more to the younger ones than to the older people?

Prabhupāda: No, any education, if you take young, youth-time, that is easily. For old man it is difficult, but he has to take so many years to forget what he has learned. (laughter)

Prof. O'Connell: But he's making progress.

Prabhupāda: That is the difficulty. Young man, they are easily receptive. Old man thinks, "Why shall I give up my present understanding?" That is the difficulty. But if he gives up and takes to, sarva-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66), if he takes to it, then immediately, in a moment.

(pause)

Prabhupāda: So this is, this plate is for me?

Guest (1): Yes.

Prabhupāda: No, no, keep it and I shall . . . at least I shall see it. It is for you, take it.

Guest (1): No, it's for you.

Prabhupāda: No, no. He'll save this for me.

Devotee (1): It's for you, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Nice. I have no teeth, no appetite.

(pause)

Prabhupāda: Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhaḥ. If the professors chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, naturally the students will do that. (laughter) Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas tad tad eva itaro janaḥ (BG 3.21). Less important person also follow. If the professor's chanting, the students will immediately follow. You can do better service. If I go, I request them, they'll not do it. But as soon as they, "My professor is doing. All right. Immediately."

Prof. O'Connell: (to other professor) Do you have such devotion among your students in McMaster? You don't see much . . . (indistinct)

Indian man: . . . (indistinct)

Prof. O'Connell: We had a graduation ceremony today down at the University. I've just come up from it. Are you going to send any of your students to the University to get their doctoral studies so that they can teach at other universities? We'd be delighted if some would come this way.

Viśvakarmā: One boy, Garuḍa dāsa, is going to study in the University of Chicago for his Ph.D. in Sanskrit.

Prof. O'Connell: Good.

Prabhupāda: The real education is life. The gurukula means it is a way of life training. It is said that brahmacārī gurukule vasan dānta. This is the way of life: how to learn controlling the senses. Nowadays we have got school, colleges, universities, but this method is not there, how to become dānta. Method is different, that "You can do whatever you like—you simply attend class." That is not the way of life. This is tapasya:

tapasā brahmacaryeṇa

śamena ca damena ca

tyāgena satya-śaucābhyāṁ

yamena niyamena vā

(SB 6.1.13)

This is tapasya. This can be done.

kecit kevalayā bhaktyā

vāsudeva-parāyaṇāḥ

aghaṁ dhunvanti kārtsnyena

nīhāram iva bhāskaraḥ

(SB 6.1.15)

All these things, tapasya, can be executed simply by learning devotional service. Then everything is there. Kecit kevalayā bhaktyā. So we are describing these things in our books. If these books are made textbook . . . I think in some of the colleges they are making textbooks, our books, in Germany, in Hamburg University. There is university of the name Hamburg?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: East Berlin.

Prabhupāda: They have taken some of our books for textbook.

Prof. O'Connell: There is a German gentleman, Walter Eidlitz, who wrote in German a life of Śrī Caitanya some years ago. Did he ever meet you, by any chance, Walter Eidlitz?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Prof. O'Connell: He spent some time in Vṛndāvana during the Second War, became a Vaiṣṇava, devotee, I believe, and then wrote this lengthy German life of Caitanya. I don't think it's translated yet.

Prabhupāda: There is one, my Godbrother also, you perhaps know, Sadānanda. He came to India in 1935, Gauḍīya Maṭha. And my Guru Mahārāja first initiated him with hari-nāma. Two gentlemen came: one Ernst Schulze, another Von something. But later on they left. This Schulze was my intimate friend.

Prof. O'Connell: One of your Godbrothers was in Toronto about this time last year, Swami Bhakti-hṛdaya Bon Mahārāja was passing through Toronto. Your devotees came over to the house and were very courteous to him and invited him back to the temple, and he was very pleased.

Prabhupāda: Yes, I wrote to him care of your address.

Prof. O'Connell: That's right.

Prabhupāda: I invited him to Hawaii, but by that time he left.

Prof. O'Connell: His plans were following . . . (indistinct)

Guest (1): Swāmī, do you attach any significance to the fact that this temple is in a form of a Christian church?

Prabhupāda: There are many Christian church we have converted temple. They sell for want of customer. And we purchase, we increase customer, but customer of the same place. That is the beauty. These customers, they are not brought from India. But formerly they were not coming here; now they are coming in crowd. In Los Angeles we purchased . . . you have been in Los Angeles? Oh. Now we have got a regular colony, about one dozen big, big houses. So that was a church. Nobody was coming, they sold it to us. Now it is always crowded. This church, they were not going to sell us. But (laughs) under circumstances it came to us. We wanted to purchase it, but the proprietor would not sell to us. They were charging very big price. So we are prepared; still he'll not agree. Now we have purchased less price. (to devotee) What is the history?

Jagadīśa: Well, the previous owner didn't want to sell it to the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. They said they'd prefer to burn it down. (Prabhupāda laughs) One Indian gentleman who is a prominent businessman in Toronto purchased it in trust, saying that he was representing some social . . . Indian social group. So he purchased it in trust. Then the chairman of the committee of trustees who were in charge of selling the church noticed some tilaka on Viśvakarmā's face. He had a hat on so his śikhā wouldn't show. When he saw it was Hare Kṛṣṇa, he became very disturbed.

Viśvakarmā: He said: "Oh, no, the Hare Kṛṣṇas."

Prabhupāda: So they are not very favorable to the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. (laughs)

Indian man: How long did it take for Swāmījī to write the seventeen volumes, translation of Caitanya-caritāmṛta?

Prabhupāda: It can be finished, but I have to look after this management, that is the difficulty.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He's asking about the Caitanya-caritāmṛtas.

Prabhupāda: Ācchā. It is finished.

Hari-śauri: How long did it take?

Prabhupāda: Oh. It took one year and six month.

Guest (1): When do you usually write?

Prabhupāda: I write in the night.

Guest (1): Night?

Prabhupāda: Yes. I get up at half past twelve. I go to bed at half past ten, and I get up at half past twelve. Then I finish my chanting, if there is any balance, and then I begin dictating. And the morning, they take it and type it. So this Dictaphone is always with me, wherever I go, so my writing book is not stopped. Maybe few pages, but something is there daily. Little drops of water wears the stone. So in that way we have translated so many books. About fifty-four books are already published, besides the small booklets. (aside) And how many we have published, Bhāgavatam? About twenty-two?

Hari-śauri: Twenty volumes, and two more in print now.

Prabhupāda: Therefore twenty-two. So I am expecting sixty volumes. Sixty volumes of four hundred pages. The biggest canto is the Tenth Canto. I've already published the Tenth Canto, summarized: Kṛṣṇa. But in detail, it will take at least twenty volumes.

Indian man: It's almost as big as the rest of the book.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Indian man: Tenth is almost as big as the rest of the book.

Prabhupāda: Yes. There are ninetieth chapters . . . ninety chapters. All other cantos, at most thirty chapters. But Tenth Canto is ninety chapters. That is Kṛṣṇa's face, Kṛṣṇa's beautiful face. Everyone is attracted by the smiling face of Kṛṣṇa.

Indian man: Is there any other bhāṣya other than Baladeva-bhāṣya?

Prabhupāda: No, many others.

Indian man: Gauḍīya, Śaṅkara . . .

Prabhupāda: No, other ācāryas. Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, then Vallabhācārya. Then our Gauḍīya-bhāṣya, this Jīva Gosvāmī, Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura. And Rādhāramaṇa Gosvāmī, Gopāla Bhaṭṭa Gosvāmī's descendant.

Indian man: Is there any plan to translate into English these things? Is there any plan to translate Jīva Gosvāmī's, Jīva-bhāṣya?

Prabhupāda: No, no. I am taking help from all these Gosvāmīs and giving a summary. Where is that book? That green book? (referring to Prabhupāda's green Bhāgavatam with eight commentaries) (break) First comment I find, Viśvanātha Cakravartī and Vīra-rāghavācārya, the Rāmānujācārya-sampradāya. Vīra-rāghavācārya.

Indian man: Ādhunika-bhāṣya.

Prabhupāda: It is not ādhunika. It was written at least two hundred, three hundred years ago. Ādhunika, who is caring? Who cares for Bhāgavatam? Technology, hammer . . . cuta-cut-cuta. Nobody is now interested in philosophy or English literature. The professors say. I have got . . . so read the names of the commentator, any chapter. Who are . . . Śrīdhara Svāmī.

Pradyumna: (reading Sanskrit names) Śrīdhara Svāmī, and Vaṁśidhara-kṛta-bhāvārtha-dīpikā-prakāśa-bhāṣya, Śrī-Gaṅgā-sahaya-praṇītānvika-prakāśaś ca. And Śrīmad-vīra-rāghavācārya, Bhāgavata-candrikā. Śrīmad-vijaya-dhvaja-tīrtha-racita-pada-ratnāvalī, Śrīmaj-jīva-gosvāmī, Krama-Sandarbha. Viśvanātha-cakravartī, Kṛta-sārārtha-darśini. Śrīmad-śukadeva-kṛta-siddhānta pathī. Gosvāmī-śrī-giri-hari-lāla-gupta, Gośāla-prabodhinī.

Prabhupāda: That is Vallabhācārya.

Pradyumna: Uh . . . Śrī-bhagavat-prasādācārya-praṇīta, Bhakti-mano-rañjanī.

Prabhupāda: All the ācāryas, their disciplic succession, they have written their comments. Only Śaṅkarācārya has not written. (laughs) He's impersonalist. He could not. Although the present generation of Śaṅkarācārya, they are living by reciting Bhāgavata and making kadarthanā. This is going on.

Indian man: They advocate the advaita-tattva in Bhāgavata also.

Prabhupāda: There is one Akandananda Swami in Vṛndāvana.

Indian man: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: There is . . . "Kṛṣṇa, kṛ means this; ṣṇa means this," like that.

Indian man: Even Rāmānujācārya-sampradāya, Bhāgavata is not cited, quoted. Madhva quotes but . . . (indistinct) . . . but Rāmānuja does not quote from Bhāgavata in Śrī-bhāṣya.

Prabhupāda: Rāmānuja . . . Here is Rāmān . . . vīra-rāghavācārya is Rāmānuja.

Indian man: That is later. I am talking about the great Rāmānujācārya, Śrī-bhāṣya.

Prabhupāda: No, Bhāgavata is accepted. Yad vaiṣṇavānāṁ priya. Any Vaiṣṇava, Bhāgavata is, they write comment or not comment. Formerly . . . just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu did not write any. That does not mean He was not accepting Bhāgavata. That does not mean. But His disciples wrote, disciplic succession. (break) . . . comment or not comment. That does not matter. It is the dearmost. Just like in our Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava there was no comment on the Vedānta-sūtra. Because Caitanya Mahāprabhu recommended . . . and in the Bhāgavata also, in every chapter, Brahma-sūtra-bhāṣya. (to Prayumna) Is that, any chapter? At the end of chapter.

Pradyumna: Here it doesn't have.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Pradyumna: Here it doesn't have. The Gauḍīya edition . . . end of chapter: śrī-śrīmad-bhāgavata-mahāpurāṇe paramahaṁsa-saṁhitāyām.

Prabhupāda: Paramahaṁsa-saṁhitāyām. Brahma-sūtra-bhāṣya is not there?

Pradyumna: No, only Gauḍīya.

Prabhupāda: So, it is actually bhāṣyāyāṁ brahma-sūtrāṇām. It is stated. This is the real commentary on Brahma-sūtra by Vyāsadeva himself, author. Vyāsadeva is the author of Brahma-sūtra, and he has written personally, under the instruction of his guru, Nārada Muni, this Brahma-sūtra-bhāṣya. And it begins with the Brahma-sūtra aphorism: janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). The Brahma-sūtra begins with these words: janmādya . . . athāto brahma jijñāsā. Janmādy asya yataḥ. So these things are explained elaborately. Therefore Brahma-sūtra-bhāṣya, it is bhāṣyāyāṁ brahma-sūtra. Vedārtha paribṛṁhita. So therefore in our Gauḍīya . . . Caitanya Mahāprabhu did not write any bhāṣya of the Brahma-sūtra, neither the Gosvāmīs, because they took it that Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is the real bhāṣya of Brahma-sūtra. But when . . . sometimes the Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavas are challenged that "You cannot be accepted as bona fide community, spiritual community, because you have no bhāṣya on Brahma-sūtra." Then Baladeva Vidyābhūṣaṇa wrote Govinda-bhāṣya. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu did not like or ask His disciples to write, because He thought, "This is the Gauḍīya Brahma-sūtra-bhāṣya." Not Gauḍīya—for every Vaiṣṇava. Bhāṣyāyāṁ brahma-sūtrāṇām. So we have got now Gauḍīya Vedānta-bhāṣya. Rāmānuja Vedānta-bhāṣya is there. Madhvācārya Vedānta-bhāṣya is there, all. And Gauḍīya had not. But since this challenge was made in Jaipur, then Baladeva Vidyābhūṣaṇa, he took, "Yes," and he finished, Gauḍīya bhāṣya, and it is called Govinda-bhāṣya. Actually, in India, unless one follows the ācārya and has given commentary on the Brahma-sūtra, he's not a bona fide. Nyāya-prasthāna. Brahma-sūtra is called nyāya-prasthāna. Śruti-prasthāna, smṛti-prasthāna, nyāya-prasthāna. So any bona fide ācārya must give his understanding about these three prasthānas.

Prof. O'Connell: Swāmījī, it may be time for us to take your leave. It was a great pleasure and honor to . . .

Prabhupāda: Thank you very much for your coming. Now my request is that you take up this movement. It is actually a great contribution to the human society. Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭha (BG 3.21). Those who are leaders of the society, if they take it, it is easily understood and easily distributed. So there is no question of sectarian thought. It is the necessity of the human society to understand God. The other day in Detroit, two father priests came to see me. I also requested that we require a set of first-class men that is not there at the present moment. There is no head. They are thinking simply arms wanted, defense, and fight amongst themselves. That's all. Everyone is thinking simply arms wanted. And what they will do with the arms? Fight between themselves, that's all. So one asura was given one thousand hands by Lord Śiva. But he could not find any enemy. So he was fighting with hills and mountains and making him smashed. So he came to Lord Śiva: "Sir, you have given me one thousand hands, but there is no enemy for me. I cannot fight." (laughs) So Śiva said, "Yes, you just wait for the day when your enemy will come who will smash you into pieces." (laughs) So we are simply equipping with arms and finding out to whom we'll fight. That is going on. So everyone is manufacturing the atomic weapon. So there must be some fight, so that all the nations will be ruined up. (break) (end)