760608 - Conversation B - Los Angeles

Conversations by Date, 1976

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

Listen to a 'Nectar Drop' created from this Conversation

760608GC-LOS ANGELES - June 08, 1976 - 66:58 Minutes

Prabhupāda: . . . next life, on account of his sinful activities he, if he becomes a dog in the same land, then what is the benefit? Everyone will treat him as dog, even though somebody knows, "This dog was formerly our prime minister." (laughter) Then what is the benefit? To remain in the prime minister's post, and next life he's going to be a dog, then what is the benefit?

Devotee: Hardly any.

Prabhupāda: Hmm? Discuss amongst yourselves. This is the point. We have got a short duration of life, and we declare independence of the laws of nature, laws of God, and do whatever we like, and as a result of our activities, we are obliged to accept a body which is not desirable. Then where is my independence? Why do they think very independent and act independent? Is it not foolishness? Discuss amongst yourselves.

Nalinīkaṇṭha: That's described in the third chapter: ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā.

Prabhupāda: Ah, thank you. This is the disease. Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate (BG 3.27). The rascal, he is bewildered, vimūḍhātmā, on account of false egotism. Just like we are inviting everyone, "Please come and learn Bhagavad-gītā." "Huh! Bhagavad-gītā. Let us go to the sea and swim." Surfer, surfer. They are taking so much trouble. I have not see here; in Hawaii. For hours together, struggling with waves. I've seen it South Africa also, very fond of this surf sporting. So they are wasting so much time and laboring so hard just to become fish. Yes, they are going to be fish, because at the time of death they'll think of "How I am jumping in the water, surfing." That is natural. Sadā tad-bhāva-bhāvitaḥ (BG 8.6). Because he has constantly thought over the sporting, naturally he'll think of sporting in the water. So this gross body, when finished, his mental, intellectual and false ego will carry him to become a fish, and he'll have full freedom how fish is jumping within the water, going against the waves. A small fish can go against the waves. There is a Hindi poetry that a small fish can go against the big waves, whereas a big elephant is washed away. This is practical. Bahiya jāya(?) gajarāja. Gajarāja means . . . gaja means elephant. In big waves, if you put an elephant, he'll be washed away. But a small fish, he'll go against the waves. He's expert. This example is given that the fish, although he's very small, he's of the water. He's under the water. Therefore he's so powerful. He can go against the waves. That means āśraya. If one takes shelter of the supreme powerful, he also becomes powerful. The example is given, the small fish, it has no power, but because he has taken shelter of the water, it can go against big waves, whereas a big elephant, he'll be washed away, because he has not taken shelter. He has not taken shelter of the water. He is . . . on the land he is very powerful, but in the water he has no power.

So according to different circumstance, we become powerful. A person, he was given the opportunity of human being to understand God, his position in relationship with God. So they won't care to take instruction about these features of life. They'll waste their time as a big swimmer in the water, with the result that he's going to be fish. If nature's law . . . you are giving up this body. That's a fact. You are leaving this body. Now what is your position? That will depend on the nature's law. Your body is finished. Now you are completely under nature's law. So whatever nature's law allow you, you have to accept. Your so-called education, so-called prestigious position, everything, will be finished. You cannot do anything. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ (BG 3.27).

Gopavṛndapāla: Even in this life they begin to take on the qualities of their next life. Like the surfers, they put on a black suit that is very smooth so that they can go through the waves very swiftly like the fish do. So they even look like a fish. And they shape their surfboard same shape as the fish are.

Prabhupāda: They have to imitate. Otherwise, they cannot struggle. Just like they have made the 747 airship. But the shape is like a bird. You cannot make other shape. That you cannot do. If you make the shape of the 747 airplane like a man, it will be finished. So you have to take knowledge from God's creation. You cannot create independently. That is not possible. Just like ships and boats, they are shaped like fish, the same shape; otherwise, you cannot run on water. That is not possible. The original design is made by God, and you have to follow.

Gopavṛndapāla: We told you yesterday, Śrīla Prabhupāda, about the hang gliders? They hang on wings, and then they glide down from the cliffs like birds. To make the gliders they had to study the birds' movements for many, many years just to get the right shape for the wings.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Oh, Jadurāṇī, how are you?

Jadurāṇī: Jaya, Prabhupāda.

Dr. Wolfe: Prabhupāda, may I say something, add something to this idea that the so-called rigid flight is insecure? Therefore the rigid planes are insecure because they do not imitate nature, and that is why there are so many accidents with the planes. But these gliders are much safer because they are more like birds.

Prabhupāda: After all, imitation is imitation. Sometime it is perfect imitation . . . perfect cannot be; but as far as possible. But imitation is there. And the material life is imitation. Because material life means we want to imitate God. That is material life. God is all-powerful; we want to become all-powerful. That is material life. And the struggle for existence. Because we cannot become God, it is impossible, but artificially, they are trying to become God. That is struggle for existence. So material life means imitation. Everyone is struggling to become God. Even when one is so-called liberated, self-realized, just like the Māyāvādī philosopher, they are also writing, "Self, my own self," but "I am independent." And that is the material disease. Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā. He's always thinking that, "I am independent," which he's not. He's completely under the laws of nature, prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni (BG 3.27), but he's thinking "I'm independent." That is foolishness. They'll not accept knowledge given by God, they'll manufacture knowledge. That is material disease. And that knowledge is also uncertain. One stalwart man of knowledge is speaking, "I think, I believe," and another stalwart is saying: "No, no, I think, I believe." What is the meaning of this "I think, I believe"? We say: "You are all rascals. Whatever you believe, whatever you think, they are all rascaldom." That's all. This is our decision. There are many persons, they are simply saying: "I think, I believe," and we say: "You all people who are thinking independently, believing independently, you are all rascals." That's all. So far our position is concerned, we never say "I think." Whatever we say, we support it immediately by some quotation of the Vedic literature. That is our process.

So this morning I was talking with Hari-śauri that our test is this, that because it is written in the Bhagavad-gītā that na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15), so anyone who is not surrendering to God, he's thinking independently, so he is either miscreant, a rascal, lowest of the mankind; māyayāpahṛta-jñānāḥ, all knowledge taken by māyā—in these groups. Our test is very simple. As soon as we see somebody is not thinking as God thinks, as Kṛṣṇa thinks, we take him in either of these groups. That is our test. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ—we see, practically, they do not speak or they not think as Kṛṣṇa says, but he's thinking independently. Therefore he is mūḍha. His thinking is imperfect, so therefore, he's mūḍha. And because his thinking is imperfect, another mūḍha comes, he says "I think like this." This is their controversy. So many independently thinking philosophers have spoiled the broth. Too many cook spoil the broth. Real knowledge is lacking. Hmm? Anyone, any question? Yes? Just attend to the question.

Dr. Wolfe: With regard to opinions, there are the people, especially the scientists, I would say the medium quality of scientists, who don't want to think anymore. They just come to a . . .

Prabhupāda: They are finished. Rather, they have stopped. They are finished. Whatever they could do, they have already done, and there is no scope of their doing anything. Therefore next business is bluff. That's all.

Dr. Wolfe: Prabhupāda, may I still add something? In Atlanta, one professor in a seminar said when confronted with the Vedantic . . . Vedic philosophy, he said: "These things cannot be proven empirically, so we dismiss the problem." He is satisfied to be made out of molecules that came together through chemical combinations, and that is what he believes in and what he works for, and there is no more. He dismisses the problem.

Prabhupāda: Dismisses the problem? What is that.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But he cannot prove that life is made from molecules.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So they no more deal with that subject matter?

Rāmeśvara: Yes, that's their point. That because they cannot prove that life comes from life or that there is transmigration of soul, therefore they will not consider your challenge, because it cannot be proven by empiric means.

Prabhupāda: Why not proven?

Rāmeśvara: They say it cannot be proven . . .

Prabhupāda: It is proven.

Rāmeśvara: . . . by observation.

Prabhupāda: It is observation. That is, a child is growing to another body. So the soul of the child is transferred to another body. What more proof he wants?

Rāmeśvara: There's no visible evidence of the soul.

Prabhupāda: This is visible. Your child, a baby, is on the lap, and after one year, he has got a different body. The old, the old body on the lap is finished. Now he is walking. It is another body. Why it is not visible?

Rāmeśvara: They say all matter goes through the stage of development and destruction.

Prabhupāda: No, no. First of all, this is to be answered, that this child, when he was born, he was very small, lying on the lap of the mother. Now he's jumping. Now that body which was lying on the lap of the mother is no more existing. He has got another body which is jumping. But the mother knows that "It is my same child." Therefore the same soul is there; the body has changed.

Rāmeśvara: But they argue that there is no soul; it is simply the changing of matter.

Prabhupāda: The changing . . . when the child is born dead, why he does not grow? (laughter) Therefore they are rascals.

Mahātmā: There was one boy in Berkeley, and he worked for a company that would record facts and figures, and he said every year the Navy would pay this company something like sixty thousand dollars and would give them their theories that they knew were wrong, and this company would supply false facts and figures to coincide with the theories—make up facts that would support their false theories.

Prabhupāda: What is that false theory?

Hṛdayānanda: They want to take money, so they say that, "We need so many things, you have to give us money from the government to buy new weapons," this and that, so they make up false things for money.

Prabhupāda: Befool.

Rāmeśvara: Child is born dead means defective body.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Rāmeśvara: It just means it is defective.

Prabhupāda: That is, rascal—that his soul is not there, therefore defective. The body is already defective, your body, my body, but it is effective only so long the soul is there.

Devotees: Jaya!

Prabhupāda: The body is always defective. Either child's body or your body or my body, it is always defective without the soul, and it is effective with the soul. This is the conclusion. Therefore Arjuna was chastised by Kṛṣṇa that "You are giving stress on the body. This kind of conception is for the fools." Aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ prajñā-vādāṁś ca bhāṣase (BG 2.11): "You are talking like a very learned man, but a learned man knows always that this body is defective, either living or dead." The same body. Dead means the soul is not there, and living means the soul is there. The two condition, effective and defective, is depending on the soul. And soul is important. You have to understand what is that soul. That is knowledge. Tattva-jñānārtha-darśanam (BG 13.12). To understand the truth, what is the truth there, that without something this body is dead, no more value, and with that something the body is so valuable. So one who is intelligent, he'll try to find out what is that truth.

Dr. Wolfe: Prabhupāda, I told a friend—he's been a friend over the years—I tried to bring it home to him that we are not our body, and he said: "Oh, yes, and I cannot get away from the physical idea that I am this," and I said, "Your father is very sick now, and he may die at any time," He is very fond of his father, "and when the father is dead and lying there on the floor and after few days he begins to smell," I asked him, "is that still your father?" He had no answer for that.

Prabhupāda: Nobody can answer. They simply falsely argue. They are therefore less intelligent. Mūḍha. If he was intelligent, then he would immediately accept the Kṛṣṇa's teaching, beginning with dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā (BG 2.13). On account of the soul, the body is changing, kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā. The body is sometimes child, sometimes boy, sometimes young man, sometimes old man, sometimes diseased, sometimes healthy. All these terms are there on account of presence of the soul. If the soul is not there, then it is simply a lump of matter, and it is going to be compost/composed into matter again, and then it will smell. Either you'll have to throw it for being eaten by the vultures or you can bury it under some ceremony or you can burn it. Three . . . what is called? Pariṇāma, transformations. Either as stool or as ash or as earth. Those who are burying, the bodies gradually becomes earth; those who are throwing, the vultures eat, the jackals, dogs eat and it turns into stool; and those who are burning, it turns into ashes. Three transformations, this beautiful body.

Nalinīkaṇṭha: Some people would say: "If everything is a creation of God, then why do you have such a . . . why do you present this body as such a horrible thing?"

Prabhupāda: You wanted this body. Therefore you have got this body. You wanted. Just like a child asks the father, "Give me this dress." Father gives him, "All right, take this dress." You wanted a certain type of body. Just like the surfers, they want a body like fish. Therefore they are so much anxious to swim. So father will give him next body a fish.

Rāmeśvara: He was saying that some people criticize us that we are saying this is God's creation, yet we are always speaking of it in a very bad way.

Prabhupāda: Very bad way?

Trivikrama: The bad way is also the mercy of the Lord to help us realize that . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no. Bad way, good way; man proposes, God disposes. You want something, bad or good . . . actually, everything is bad. This body or the fish's body or the dog's body, that is all material body. So everything is bad. But I prefer to get the body of a human being or a dog or a fish or a bird. That is my choice. So God gives you that body. Everywhere God's mercy is there, because whatever you want, ye yathā māṁ prapadyante tāṁs tathaiva bhajāmy aham (BG 4.11). In the material world, you have come to enjoy. You cannot enjoy. You are thinking . . . just like child: he's playing with something for sometime, again taking another thing, again taking another thing, childish. So similarly, we want to enjoy this material world. Sometimes I am thinking it will be convenient if I get a man's body, it will be convenient if I get a tiger's body, it will be convenient if I get a fish's body. So God is supplying you, "All right, you take this body." So what is God's fault? He is very kind. You wanted to do something: do it. Not only that, if he forgets that, "I wanted the fish body, now how I have got it?" No, he forgets that he wanted it. So God reminds him that, "You wanted this body; you have got this body." Mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca (BG 15.15).

So God is very kind in all circumstances. Now we proposing to enjoy this material world under different situation, and God is helping us. Bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni yantrārūḍhāni māyayā (BG 18.61). You want to wander within this material world. That is your proposal. So, in order to enjoy this material world, you require different types of body. Just like they are trying to go to the moon planet. It requires a different body. So yānti deva-vratā devān (BG 9.25): this life, you aspire of going to the moon planet; next life, automatically you will go there. Why you are trying unnecessarily to go to the moon planet by sputnik? You'll go there. You just always think of the moon and you'll go to the moon. It is simple process. And by this way, you cannot go. Now, exactly in the same way that you get the body of a fish and you very easily, whole day and night, for so many years, you jump over in the sea. So moon planet is one of the heavenly planets. There is process how to go to moon planet. In the Bhāgavata it is stated. Those who are karma-kāṇḍīya, very discharging the Vedic ritualistic ceremony, karma-kāṇḍa, they can go to the moon planet or sun planet. There are millions and trillions of planets they can go. Yānti deva-vratā devān pitṟn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ (BG 9.25). The same thing. Suppose if you want to go to India, you prepare yourself, take the visa, the permit, the passport and necessary money and permission, so many things. You go there. Yes.

Dr. Wolfe: I think so much of going to India, I would certainly be reborn in India.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) No, this is an example, that anywhere you want to go . . . therefore one qualification of living entity is sarva-ga. Sarva-ga. Ga means "Can go," this ga, ga and "go." Sarva-ga. Sthānur acalo 'yam . . . where is Bhagavad-gītā?

Hṛdayānanda: Nityaḥ sarva-gataḥ sthāṇuḥ.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Hṛdayānanda: Nityaḥ sarva-gataḥ sthāṇuḥ.

Prabhupāda: Nityaḥ sarva-gataḥ sthānuḥ, then? Yes. So sarva-gataḥ, sarva-ga. Sarva-ga is this word?

Hṛdayānanda: Gataḥ.

Prabhupāda: Sarva-gataḥ is another. Sarva-ga, the word is used. Sarva-ga means he can go anywhere he likes. He can go anywhere. Such freedom is there. That is confirmed in another verse. Yānti deva-vratā devān: you can go to the deva-loka. The moon planet is the beginning of the heavenly planets. You can go there. You simply prepare yourself.

yānti deva-vratā devān

pitṟn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ

bhūtejyā yānti . . .

mad-yājino 'pi yānti mām

(BG 9.25)

"And if one tries to go back to Me, back to home, back to, he can also go there." The intelligence is there that if, by preparing myself, I can go to God, why shall I endeavor to go to this moon, to the sun, to the hell, to the this or that? For everything I'll have to prepare, so why not prepare myself to go back to home, back to Godhead? That is intelligence. Wherever you want to go, you have to prepare yourself, you have to make some endeavor. So why not make little endeavor for going back to home, back to Godhead? Yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramaṁ mama (BG 15.6). And if once you go to God, then you haven't got to come back again to accept this material body. So why not endeavor for this? This is intelligence. What is the benefit if I go to the moon planet? Ābrahma-bhuvanāl lokāḥ punar āvartino 'rjuna (BG 8.16). Even if you go to the highest planet, Brahmaloka, you'll have to come back again.

So why you should waste your time in this temporary things? Go back to home, back to Godhead, where you'll get . . . awaken your eternal life, blissful life of knowledge. You go there. That is intelligence. If I have to endeavor, make preparation, for going to the moon planet, so what is that moon planet? You can get duration of life, ten thousands of years. Just like we have got life here for one hundred years maximum, the moon planet, you can live there for ten thousands of years. But after that ten thousand years, you have to die. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi (BG 13.9). There is no excuse. So intelligent man, why he should endeavor for things which is temporary, maybe ten years or hundred years or ten thousand years? That is intelligence, so why should I try for temporary things? If there is possibility of my permanent life, blissful life, so why not try? This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramaṁ mama. Is that not? Find out yad gatvā na nivartante.

Indian guest: Prabhupāda? (very faint) . . . petroleum demand, he takes out the blood of the earth, and so the planet is going to sink . . . (indistinct) . . . said.

Prabhupāda: I mentioned somewhere. (laughs) Yes.

Indian guest: So can we do something about it?

Prabhupāda: What you can do? If I take your blood, what you can do? You'll die, that's all. Hmm.

Hṛdayānanda:

na tad bhāsayate sūryo

na śaśāṅko na pāvakaḥ

yad gatvā na nivartante

tad dhāma paramaṁ mama

(BG 15.6)

"That abode of Mine is not illumined by the sun or moon, nor by electricity. One who reaches it never returns to this material world."

Purport? "The spiritual world, the abode of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, which is known as Kṛṣṇaloka, Goloka Vṛndāvana, is described here. In the spiritual sky there is no need of sunshine, moonshine, fire or electricity, because all the planets are self-luminous. We have only one planet in this universe, the sun, which is self-luminous, but all the planets in the spiritual sky are self-luminous. The shining effulgence of all those planets, called Vaikuṇṭhas, constitutes the shining sky known as the brahma-jyotir. Actually, the effulgence is emanating from the planet of Kṛṣṇa, Goloka Vṛndāvana. Part of that shining effulgence is covered by the mahat-tattva, the material world. Other than this, the major portion of that shining sky is full of spiritual planets, which are called Vaikuṇṭhas, the chief of which is Goloka Vṛndāvana."

"As long as a living entity is in this dark material world, he is in conditional life, but as soon as he reaches the spiritual sky, by cutting through the false, perverted tree of this material world he becomes liberated. Then there is no chance of his coming back here. In his conditional life, the living entity considers himself to be the lord of this material world, but in his liberated state he enters into the spiritual kingdom and becomes the associate of the Supreme Lord. There he enjoys eternal bliss, eternal life and full knowledge. One should be captivated by this information. He should desire to transfer himself to that eternal world and extricate himself from this false reflection of reality. For one who is too much attached to this material world, it is very difficult to cut that attachment, but if he takes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, there is a chance of gradually becoming detached. One has to associate himself with devotees, those who are in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. One should search out a Society dedicated to Kṛṣṇa consciousness and learn how to discharge devotional service. In this way he can cut off his attachment to the material world. One cannot become detached from the attraction of the material world simply by dressing himself in saffron cloth. He must become attached to the devotional service of the Lord."

"Therefore one should take it very seriously that devotional service as described in the Twelfth Chapter is the only way to get out of this false representation of the real tree. In Chapter Fourteen the contamination of all kinds of processes by material nature is described. Only devotional service is described as purely transcendental. The words paramaṁ mama are very important here. Actually, every nook and corner is the property of the Supreme Lord, but the spiritual world is paramam, full of six opulences. In the Upaniṣads it is also confirmed that in the spiritual world there is no need of sunshine or moonshine, for the whole spiritual sky is illuminated by the internal potency of the Supreme Lord. That supreme abode can be achieved only by surrender and by no other means."

Prabhupāda: Next verse.

Hṛdayānanda:

mamaivāṁśo jīva-loke

jīva-bhūtaḥ sanātanaḥ

manaḥ ṣaṣṭhānīndriyāṇi

prakṛti-sthāni karṣati

(BG 15.7)

"The living entities in this conditioned world are My eternal, fragmental parts. Due to conditioned life, they are struggling very hard with the six senses, which include the mind."

Purport: "In this verse the identity of the living being is clearly given. The living entity is a fragmental part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, eternally. It is not that he assumes individuality in his conditional life and in his liberated state becomes one with the Supreme Lord. He is eternally fragmented. It is clearly said, sanātana. According to the Vedic version, the Supreme Lord manifests and expands Himself in innumerable expansions, of which the primary expansions are called viṣṇu-tattva, and the secondary expansions are called the living entities. In other words, the viṣṇu-tattva is the personal expansion, and the living entities are separated expansions."

"By His personal expansion, He is manifested in various forms like Lord Rāma, Nṛsiṁha-deva, Viṣṇumūrti and all the predominating Deities in the Vaikuṇṭha planets. The separated expansions, the living entities, are eternally servitors. The personal expansions of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the individual identities of the Godhead, are always present. Similarly, the separated expansions of living entities have their identities. As fragmental parts and parcels of the Supreme Lord, the living entities have also fragmental qualities, of which independence is one. Every living entity has an individual soul, his personal individuality and a minute form of independence. By misuse of that independence, one becomes a conditioned soul, and by proper use of independence he is always liberated. In either case, he is qualitatively eternal, as the Supreme Lord is. In his liberated state he is freed from this material condition, and he is under the engagement of transcendental service unto the Lord; in his conditioned life he is dominated by the material modes of nature, and he forgets the transcendental loving service of the Lord. As a result, he has to struggle very hard to maintain his existence in the material world."

"The living entities, not only the human beings and the cats and dogs, but even the greater controllers of the material world—Brahmā, Lord Śiva and even Viṣṇu—are all parts and parcels of the Supreme Lord. They are all eternal, not temporary manifestations. The word karṣati ("struggling" or "grappling hard") is very significant. The conditioned soul is bound up, as though shackled by iron chains. He is bound up by the false ego, and the mind is the chief agent which is driving him in this material existence. When the mind is in the mode of goodness, his activities are good."

Prabhupāda: Manaḥ ṣaṣṭhānīndriyāṇi prakṛti-sthāni karṣati (BG 15.7). The struggle for existence—this word is used also among the philosophers. This is struggle. He is creating something by the mind, manaḥ, and the senses are engaged according to the dictation of the mind. Manaḥ ṣaṣṭhānīndriyāṇi. In this way, prakṛti-sthāni, within this material world, he's living a life of struggle for existence. Prakṛti-sthāni karṣati. Karṣati means with hardship he's pulling on. Just like an animal yoked with cart, bull, with hardship he's pulling on, but he cannot get out of it. And if he slacks, immediately there is whip—he has to go. Therefore this word is used, karṣati. He doesn't like this, but he has to do it. Struggle for existence, survival of the fittest. (guest enters) Hare Kṛṣṇa. That man may come.

Rāmeśvara: He's a good friend of ours, Śrīla Prabhupāda. He helped us in many legal affairs.

Prabhupāda: So if he wants, he can come forward. (break) Go on reading. Can you?

Hṛdayānanda: "When the mind is in the mode of goodness, his activities are good, when the mind is in the mode of passion, his activities are troublesome; and when the mind is in the mode of ignorance, he travels in the lower species of life. It is clear, however, in this verse, that the conditioned soul is covered by . . ."

Prabhupāda: Ignorance means completely lost of all independence. That is ignorance. Complete loss of, even little independence, all lost. In the modes of passion, there is little independence, and in the modes of goodness, he has got full independence whether to remain in the struggle for existence world or go back to home, back to Godhead. Brahma jānāti iti brāhmaṇaḥ. That is real knowledge platform.

Hṛdayānanda: (reading) "This material covering perishes, but his spiritual body manifests in its individual capacity. The following information is there in the Mādhyandināyana-śruti, sa vā eṣa brahma-niṣṭhā idaṁ śarīraṁ martyam atisṛjya brahmābhisampadya brahmaṇā paśyati brahmaṇā śṛṇoti brahmaṇaivedaṁ sarvam anubhavati. It is stated here that when a living entity gives up this material embodiment and enters into the spiritual world, he revives his spiritual body, and in his spiritual body he can see the Supreme Personality of Godhead face to face. He can hear and speak to Him face to face, and he can understand the Supreme Personality as He is. In smṛti also it is understood that in the spiritual planets everyone lives in bodies featured like the Supreme Personality of Godhead's body. As far as bodily construction is concerned, there is no difference between the part-and-parcel living entities and the expansions of Viṣṇumūrti. In other words, at liberation the living entity gets a spiritual body by the grace of the Supreme Personality of Godhead."

"The word mamaivāṁśaḥ, 'fragmental parts and parcels of the Supreme Lord,' is also very significant. The fragmental portion of the Supreme Lord is not like some material broken part. We have already understood in the Second Chapter that the spirit cannot be cut into pieces. This fragment is not materially conceived. It is not like matter, which can be cut into pieces and joined together again. That conception is not applicable here because the Sanskrit word sanātana, 'eternal,' is used. The fragmental portion is eternal. It is also stated in the beginning of the Second Chapter that dehino 'smin yathā—in each and every individual body, the fragmental portion of the Supreme Lord is present. That fragmental portion, when liberated from the bodily entanglement, revives its original spiritual body in the spiritual sky in a spiritual planet and enjoys association with the Supreme Lord. It is, however, understood here that the living entity, being the fragmental part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, is qualitatively one, just as the parts and parcels of gold are also gold."

Prabhupāda: Sometimes the atheists, they say there is no soul. "Intuition." So we do not accept this proposal. The soul, when he is in particular situation, he remembers immediately what he has to do. Just like the small puppies, they have not even opened the eyes, but still, immediately after birth they're searching after food and goes immediately to the nipples of the mother. So how he goes there? They say it is intuition, but it is not intuition. The soul, being put into that body, immediately remembers all the activities of the body. Just like in Los Angeles. When I am in tour in other places I forget about Los Angeles, but as soon as I come here, I know where is my bedroom, where is my sitting room, where is my garden—immediately. I haven't got to taught that "Here is your sitting room, here is your sleeping room." Immediately I remember. Similarly, this living entity is transmigrating from immemorial in different types of body. So as soon as he comes to a particular type of body he remembers the activities immediately. They are interpreting as intuition. That is not intuition; it is old remembrance. This is the explanation.

Rāmeśvara: Then there is an argument, if we were originally in the spiritual world, why don't we remember that and try to go back to the spiritual world?

Prabhupāda: That I have already said, that when I am in tour in Europe and India, I completely forget about Los Angeles. I act according to the circumstances there. And again when I come to Los Angeles, I immediately remember. This is natural. "Out of sight, out of mind."

Baradrāj: Śrīla Prabhupāda, we don't have to learn the activities of our spiritual body?

Prabhupāda: Yes, when you are revived. Therefore the Vedic injunction is that now you have got this human form of body, you get up to your original position. Uttiṣṭhata jāgrata prāpta varan nibodhata. This is the Vedic injunction. Jīva jāgo jīva jāgo, Caitanya Mahāprabhu says. Jīva jāgo jīva jāgo gauracanda bole kota nidrā jāo māyā-piśācīra kole. How long you'll sleep? Here is the opportunity. Try to understand yourself. That is self-realization. And go back to home, back to Godhead. Why you are struggling here? Kṛṣṇa is coming. He is also saying the same, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). Why you are rotting in this material world? So for spiritual awakening there are so many attempts—by God Himself, by His devotees, by books—so many ways. But we are not inclined. That is our fault.

Gopavṛndapāla: To take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the real survival of the fittest.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is Kṛṣṇa saying, coming, yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata (BG 4.7). Real dharma means to remain subordinate to Kṛṣṇa as servant. Jīvera svarūpa haya nitya-kṛṣṇa-dāsa (CC Madhya 20.108). So we have forgotten it. This is dharmasya glāniḥ. dharma means characteristic. It is not a faith, it is a fact. So our characteristic is that we are eternal servant of God. When we forget this characteristic, that this is my original characteristic, that is adharma. That is dharmasya glāniḥ. So yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata. When there is discrepancy in the matter of discharging dharma, my occupational duty, then there is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. So one has to take it, then he's fortunate. Ei rūpe brahmāṇḍa bhramite kono bhāgyavān jīva. He's rotating within this universe, up and down. So if he's fortunate enough, he takes to this movement. It is an opportunity.

ei rūpe brahmāṇḍa bhramite kono bhāgyavān jīva

guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja

(CC Madhya 19.151)

The seed of devotional service he gets by the mercy of guru and Kṛṣṇa. So if you lose this opportunity, then you have to suffer. (to a guest) How do you think?

Guest: How do I think?

Prabhupāda: Huh? Yes.

Guest: Is it possible for one to know how many lifetimes it takes to reach spiritual perfection?

Prabhupāda: Immediately, he can take—provided that he accepts. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). Find out this verse. Ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucaḥ.

Hṛdayānanda: "Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reaction. Do not fear."

Prabhupāda: So when you are freed from sinful life and the reaction of sinful life, then you are immediately on the spiritual platform. So here Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, He assures that, "You simply surrender unto Me, and I immediately excuse you for all your sinful life." So it can be done in one second. It doesn't take much time. One second. He says "immediately." But we don't want that, that is the difficulty. Read the purport.

Hṛdayānanda: "The Lord has described various kinds of knowledge, processes of religion, knowledge of the Supreme Brahman, knowledge of the Supersoul, knowledge of the different types of orders and statuses of social life, knowledge of the renounced order of life, knowledge of nonattachment, sense and mind control, meditation, etc. He has described in so many ways different types of religion. Now in summarizing Bhagavad-gītā, the Lord says that Arjuna should give up all the processes that have been explained to him, he should simply surrender to Kṛṣṇa. That surrender will save him from all kinds of sinful reactions, for the Lord personally promises to protect him.

"In the Eighth Chapter it was said that only one who has become free from all sinful reactions can take to the worship of Lord Kṛṣṇa. Thus one may think that unless he is free from all sinful reactions he cannot take to the surrendering process. To such doubts it is here said that even if one is not free from all sinful reactions, simply by the process of surrendering to Śrī Kṛṣṇa he is automatically freed. There is no need of strenuous effort to free oneself from sinful reactions. One should unhesitatingly accept Kṛṣṇa as the supreme savior of all living entities. With faith and love, one should surrender unto Him."

"According to the devotional process, one should simply accept such religious principles that will lead ultimately to the devotional service of the Lord. One may perform a particular occupational duty according to his position in the social order, but if by executing his duty one does not come to the point of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, all his activities are in vain. Anything that does not lead to the perfectional stage of Kṛṣṇa consciousness should be avoided. One should be confident that in all circumstances Kṛṣṇa will protect him from all difficulties. There is no need of thinking how one should keep the body and soul together. Kṛṣṇa will see to that. One should always think himself helpless and should consider Kṛṣṇa the only basis for his progress in life. As soon as one seriously engages himself in devotional service to the Lord in full Kṛṣṇa consciousness, at once he becomes freed from all contamination of material nature. There are different processes of religion and purificatory processes by cultivation of knowledge, meditation in the mystic yoga system, etc., but one who surrenders unto Kṛṣṇa does not have to execute so many methods. That simple surrender unto Kṛṣṇa will save him from unnecessarily wasting time. One can thus make all progress at once and be freed from all sinful reaction."

"One should be attracted by the beautiful vision of Kṛṣṇa. His name is Kṛṣṇa because He is all-attractive. One who becomes attracted by the beautiful, all-powerful, omnipotent vision of Kṛṣṇa is fortunate. There are different kinds of transcendentalists—some of them are attached to the impersonal Brahman vision, some of them are attracted by the Supersoul feature, etc., but one who is attracted to the personal feature of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and, above all, one who is attracted by the Supreme Personality of Godhead as Kṛṣṇa Himself, is the most perfect transcendentalist. In other words, devotional service to Kṛṣṇa in full Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the most confidential part of knowledge, and this is the essence of the whole Bhagavad-gītā. karma-yogīs, empiric philosophers, mystics and devotees are all called transcendentalists, but one who is a pure devotee is the best of all. The particular words used here, mā śucaḥ, 'Don't fear, don't hesitate, don't worry,' are very significant. One may be perplexed as to how one can give up all kinds of religious forms and simply surrender unto Kṛṣṇa, but such worry is useless."

Prabhupāda: So it takes one second.

Guest: Yes.

Trivikrama: Because Kṛṣṇa's representative is nondifferent, he's a transparent medium, therefore if you surrender to him, then that's the same as surrendering to Kṛṣṇa. He so kindly sends His pure devotee for an opportunity. You can't say: "Well, where is God? I don't know how to surrender." He's sending His representative.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa's representative means the representative says the same thing as Kṛṣṇa says. Kṛṣṇa says: "Surrender unto Me," and the representative says: "Surrender to Kṛṣṇa." And because he delivers the real knowledge, he's as good as Kṛṣṇa. Therefore sākṣād-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair uktas tathā bhāvyata eva sadbhiḥ. The spiritual master may appear to be just like a common man, but he is to be respected as God, because he delivers the real message of God. That is the qualification of spiritual master. He does not manufacture anything. That is very easy. If I carry your message and educate people in that way, then there is no difficulty for me. Everything is there. Why shall I go to manufacture something imperfect? The perfect thing is already there. Simply I have to carry. A post peon—the money order is there; he has to simply carry and deliver to the person. And if he gets at time of need, he thanks the peon, "Oh, you have saved my life." It is like that. The message is already there. You have to simply deliver to the suffering humanity. Then he'll be relieved. And because he delivers the real reality, therefore he's worshiped as God. Sākṣād-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair uktas tathā bhāvyata eva sadbhiḥ. Ācāryaṁ māṁ hi vijānīyāt. Kṛṣṇa also says ācārya is . . . "I am ācārya." Because when there is, na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu kaścin me priya-kṛttamaḥ (BG 18.69).

Hṛdayānanda: Read it?

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Hṛdayānanda:

na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu

kaścin me priya-kṛttamaḥ

bhavitā na ca me tasmād

anyaḥ priyataro bhuvi

(BG 18.69)

"There is no servant in this world more dear to Me than he, nor will there ever be one more dear."

Prabhupāda: Who? Who delivers this message of Kṛṣṇa. So if from the government some very confidential secretary comes, you have to receive him just like the president, to please him. So this is the qualification of spiritual master, that he delivers things at it is. He does not make any adulteration. Then he is real representative, and he is to be accepted as God Himself. That is the process. Because here it is said, na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu (BG 18.69). You have got a son, and if I love the son . . . there is an English word: "If you love me, love my dog." So the spiritual master is dog-God. He's dog of God, therefore he's dog-God. He's to be worshiped. He's the pet dog of God. Therefore if you love the dog, you love God. Spiritual master will not claim that "I am God," but it is our duty, because the dog is pet . . . here it is said: na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu (BG 18.69). You have to love that dog. Then you'll get the perfection. This is the secret.

yasya deve parā bhaktir

yathā deve tathā gurau

tasyaite kathitā hy arthāḥ

prakāśante mahātmanaḥ

(ŚU 6.23)

So . . .?

Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda! (end)