701205 - Conversation A Hindi - Indore

Conversations by Date, 1970

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

Hansadutta: Prabhupāda has been speaking at the Gita Bhavan in Indore and this is the 2nd morning that he has spoken.

Prabhupāda: Renunciation and knowledge automatically follow bhakti.

Guest: Devotees do not need to try for knowledge and renuniation, these things are acquired automatically for them.

Prabhupāda: That is what (indistinct) Kṛṣṇa is the vairāgya-vān Just like renunciant (vairāgya-vān), and scholar (jñānī), śūdra:

kibā vipra, kibā nyāsī, śūdra kene naya

yei kṛṣṇa-tattva-vettā, sei ’guru’ haya

(CC Madhya 8.128)

(Whether one is a brāhmaṇa, a sannyāsī or a śūdra—regardless of what he is—he can become a spiritual master if he knows the science of Kṛṣṇa.)

It does not make any difference that somebody is a householder, somebody is sannyāsī. Someone is a brāhmaṇa, someone is a śūdra—these things are not there in bhakti-mārga. Whoever knows Kṛṣṇa, understands this science, he is a guru: yei kṛṣṇa-tattva-vettā, tattva-vettā, kṛṣṇa-tattva-vettā, he is a guru. In our Vaiṣṇava-sampradāya, the idea that one will be great by becoming a brāhmaṇa and sannyāsī is not there. Though it is a social idea. But bhagavat-bhakti...

Guest: What will you take now?

Prabhupāda: What?

(aside:) There is not, no coffee.

(indistinct), I simply want, we will all go together with chanting Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa.

Guest: In Ahmedabad, 5 to 6 strangers were dancing. Whenever 15 ser butter was being brought, whoever got it on their heads, they ate every bite of it. Jeldi kaldo malayo usane (?). Everyday there had a discourse on the life of Mahāprabhu.

Prabhupāda: Good (indistinct)

Guest: (indistinct) still they do not understand.

Prabhupāda: They will understand, by constant hearing they will understand.

Guest: They will understand by constant hearing. Still in their minds (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: That will also happen by constant hearing.

Guest: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Paraṁ vijayate śrī-kṛṣṇa-saṅkīrtanam (CC. Antya 20.12). The dirt on the mirror of the mind will all be washed away by constant hearing saṅkīrtana.

(Let there be all victory for the chanting of the holy name of Lord Kṛṣṇa, which can cleanse the mirror of the heart and stop the miseries of the blazing fire of material existence. That chanting is the waxing moon that spreads the white lotus of good fortune for all living entities. It is the life and soul of all education. The chanting of the holy name of Kṛṣṇa expands the blissful ocean of transcendental life. It gives a cooling effect to everyone and enables one to taste full nectar at every step.)

śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ

puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ

hṛdy antaḥ stho hy abhadrāṇi

vidhunoti suhṛt satām

(SB 1.2.17)

(Śrī Kṛṣṇa, the Personality of Godhead, who is the Paramātmā (Supersoul) in everyone's heart and the benefactor of the truthful devotee, cleanses desire for material enjoyment from the heart of the devotee who has developed the urge to hear His messages, which are in themselves virtuous when properly heard and chanted.)

So this is the process. Somehow or other he should be in saṅkīrtana. Then everything will be all right. First class.

Guest: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) ..one who is inquisitive goes to guru, sādhu guru. Kṛṣṇa. One does not need to go to sādhu guru for asking, "What is the market price of this commodity? What is this thing? Or this fellow is sick so what is its medicine?" No. For this, he has to go to a physician.

Guest: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Topmost. Topmost subject. The topmost subject is, the topmost subject uttama-viṣayā means udgata tama. The worldly subject matters are the tama subject, tamasi mā, tamasi mā. Tamasic (ignorance). What would happen with these worldly materialistic questions surrounding the political state of affairs, what will happen to us? These are not questions. These are moral questions. The topmost question is, the topmost question is, not the political or materialistic, only bhagavat subject. Topmost.

Guest: Not mine.

Prabhupāda: What?

Guest: Not mine.

Prabhupāda: Not mine. Yes. Not mineness but transcendental. Guru is needed for that inquiry. If he is eager to understand that higher thing then he needs guru. Otherwise one does not need guru. Guru is not something that you have a guru by fashion. No. Scriptures say, “No, then you do not need guru”. You are not prepared for inquirying topmost subject. Therefore you do not need guru now.

Guest: We think that by having a guru, we reach to Vaikuṇṭha. By having this guru...

Prabhupāda: For going Vaikuṇṭha only, one has to have a guru. But guru should also understand Vaikuṇṭha. And the disciple should also be really eager to go to Vaikuṇṭha, and nothing else. Then it is all right.

Guest: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes. Back to home. Back to Godhead. That is why we kept the title of our magazine—Back to Godhead.

Guest: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: This path of devotion is..., without knowledge one can not perform bhakti. Just see, the meaning of bhakti is bhagavat-bhajana. If he does not know God, then how can he do bhagavat-bhajana? Where is the question of.., If you do not know who the God is then where is bhagavat-bhajana? And to understand who the God is requires much knowledge. But there is not a single university. How much knowledge is required just to understand a materialistic thing? Much knowledge is needed to become a lawyer, and to understand God, God says:

manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu

kaścid yatati siddhaye

yatatām api siddhānāṁ

kaścin vetti māṁ

(BG 7.3)

(Out of many thousands among men, one may endeavor for perfection, and of those who have achieved perfection, hardly one knows Me in truth.)

Despite being pure, very few people understand God. So how much knowledge is needed to understand God? Without being a jñānī, how will he understand God? And without understanding God, what is bhakti? It is not bhakti, it is sentiment. Bhakti is practical. Just like Arjuna is addressed by God as—bhakto ‘si. Arjuna was not a sentimental person. He was practically a warrior, a kṣatriya. So bhakti is not a sentiment, a feeling; no. It is practical.

Guest: But by bhakti can we not...

Prabhupāda: Eh? But bhakti is practical.

Guest: ...knowledge. Through process of bhakti can we not understand?

Prabhupāda: No. One who is not jñānī can not reach to the stage of bhakti. Therefore, there are 9 Canto's in Bhāgavatam to reach to the stage of bhakti; just to understand who the God is. The professional bhagavat reciters readily jump to rasa-lila in 10th Canto by leaving aside the 9 Canto's. They have not understood God, what will they understand about God’s rasa-lila? The process is... there are 9 Cantos, beginning with: janmādy asya yataḥ, just to understand who the God is. It means beginning from Vedānta. The knowledge of God begins from Vedānta. This is the thing.

Guest: Then what about Vedānta bhakti-mārga?

Prabhupāda: What?

Guest: All Vedas are towards bhakti-mārga.

Prabhupāda: Yes: vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyo (BG 15.15). What is the meaning of Veda? To understand God.

(I am seated in everyone's heart, and from Me come remembrance, knowledge and forgetfulness. By all the Vedas am I to be known; indeed I am the compiler of Vedānta, and I am the knower of the Vedas.)

So by reading Veda, scriptures, following Vedānta, one who has correctly understood God, bhakti is for him. But he has not understood God, what is God? “Everybody is God, I am God, he is God.” Such person has not understood God. How does he know bhakti? It is meaningless.

Guest: So Veda means knowledge.

Prabhupāda: Knowledge. (It means) full knowledge. What is Kṛṣṇa?

Guest: But then people who are ignorant...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest: ...and who have no capacity to understand.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest: Then they are not up...

Prabhupāda: Yes. They are not up. If, if actually they are serious then Kṛṣṇa from within will give him knowledge. God is saying:

teṣāṁ satata-yuktānāṁ

bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam

(BG 10.10)

(To those who are constantly devoted and worship Me with love, I give the understanding by which they can come to Me.)

Unto those who are doing bhagavat-bhajana according to scriptural injunctions by the order of Guru, with love: prīti-pūrvakam, buddhi-yogaṁ dadāmi taṁ. God Himself gives them intelligence. And elsewhere:

teṣām evānukampārtham

aham ajñāna-jaṁ tamaḥ

nāśayāmy ātma-bhāvastho

jñāna-dīpena bhāsvatā

(BG 10.11)

(Out of compassion for them, I, dwelling in their hearts, destroy with the shining lamp of knowledge the darkness born of ignorance.)

God is residing in your hearts. When you are serious, when you are serious to understand Him, You can not cheat Him. And as soon as you receive within the ear, actually for Him, then He will give you knowledge.

Guest: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: That’s also. We want to be serious: prīti-pūrvakam, bhajatāṁ. God is prīti (love). Keep God and no interest in anything else.

Guest: Only devotion to Him...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest: ...with Lord.

Prabhupāda: God understands that whether you got prīti for him or through His media you have got prīti (for) something else. That is not difficult for Him to understand. He is cleverer than anyone.

Guest: (laughing) who gives the knowledge for (indistinct)

Guest (2): That is only the vyabhicāreṇa-bhakti.

Prabhupāda: Avyabhicāreṇa-bhakti.

anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ

jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam

ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu-

śīlanaṁ bhaktir uttamā

(CC Madhya 19.167)

(When first-class devotional service develops, one must be devoid of all material desires, knowledge obtained by monistic philosophy, and fruitive action. The devotee must constantly serve Kṛṣṇa favorably, as Kṛṣṇa desires.)

If one has worldly aspirations through medium of God, then it is karma. “I want to become one with a nirvisesa Brahman through medium of God” then it has become jñāna. So jñāna-karma-anāvṛtam. So it should be free from jñāna and karma. It should not be contaminated with jñāna and karma. Pure bhakti. What is pure bhakti? Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu-śīlanaṁ, doing bhagavat-bhajana favourably. How will God be satisfied? Just like gopīs, they did not care jñāna and karma. They simply wanted how Lord Kṛṣṇa will be happy. That’s all. This is vṛndāvana-bhāva. Yaśodāmayī.

Guest: Viraha-bhāva.

Prabhupāda: What?

Guest: Viraha-bhāva.

Prabhupāda: Viraha or whatever it is, their only feeling is how our Kṛṣṇa will be happy. That’s all.

Guest: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Jñānam. Be it vatsalya-bhāva or sakhya-bhāva (indistinct), there is vatsalya-bhāva. Everyone’s wish is to see how Kṛṣṇa will be happy. That’s all. It is not like how I will be happy through Kṛṣṇa. That is kāma. Through Kṛṣṇa we will fulfill our purpose. That is lust. It is called lust. And we have no purpose but how Kṛṣṇa will be happy. That is love. This is the difference between lust and love. So there needs love, not lust. Lust also (indistinct) if somebody wants to fulfill his desires, then God will fulfill. For Him there is no difficulty. But that is not pure bhakti. That is not pure bhakti.

Guest: They have sin...

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is all right, that has been accepted.

catur-vidhā bhajante māṁ

janāḥ sukṛtino 'rjuna

(BG 7.16)

(O best among the Bhāratas (Arjuna), four kinds of pious men render devotional service unto Me—the distressed, the desirer of wealth, the inquisitive, and he who is searching for knowledge of the Absolute.)

They are not called pure devotees, they are called su-kṛtino. Those who have desires for kama-siddhi, jñāna-siddhi or jijñāsā-siddhi through the medium of God, they are not called pure devotees. They are called pious. Su-kṛtino means pious. Because one who is mahā-pāpī (very sinful), he will not come to God. But these people have come to God for asking something That means they are pious, because they have come to God. While going to God they must get some status. So these four—ārto arthārthī jijñāsur, and jñānī—those who are in distress, those who want money, those who are inquisitive, and jñānī—have come to God and so they are pious.

Guest: Want purī or kulcha?

Prabhupāda: No. I want kulcha only.

Mātājī: Want kulcha, then it is all right.

Prabhupāda: You want to take purī? All right, give him purī.

Mātājī: Kulcha is being prepared slowly (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes give purī.

Guest: Capātī is there, take it.

Prabhupāda No, purī, purī.

Guest: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda Yes. Jñānī-devotees, just like Śukadeva Gosvāmī—a jñānī-bhakta.

Guest: Jñānī-bhakta.

Prabhupāda: One who becomes a devotee after being a jñānī will be a pakka bhakta.

Guest: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: What? Oh yes certainly. The purpose of knowledge is to understand God. One who has understood God and has engaged himself in service of God is better than a jñānī. Jñānī is simply trying to understand God. But this one has already engaged in service. One is applying for Government service, and the other has already engaged in Government service. So who is better?

Guest: One who has engaged.

Guest: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Bhakti is stronger than knowledge.

Guest: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: What? But knowledge will be there by having bhakti. For a pure devotee.., For example you want to do a business to acquire 1 crore rupees, and if somehow you have acquired 1 crore ruprees, then it includes 10 lakhs. Similarly if you have become a devotee, then it includes knowledge.

Guest: That was the point I was asking in the beginning.

Prabhupāda Yes, therefore the Bhāgavatam says vāsudeve bhagavati bhakti-yogaḥ prayojitaḥ (SB 1.2.7)

(By rendering devotional service unto the Personality of Godhead, Śrī Kṛṣṇa, one immediately acquires causeless knowledge and detachment from the world.)

If one is engaged in devotion to Lord Vāsudeva, then:

janayaty āśu vairāgyaṁ

jñānaṁ ca yad ahaitukam

(SB 1.2.7)

He gradually acquires jñāna and vairagya. Ahaituki. No purpose. To acquire simple knowledge one has to read and hear a lot. One has to read Veda, Vedānta etc. But if one has become a bhakta, (indistinct)

yasya deve parā bhaktir

yathā-deve tathā gurau

tasyaite kathitā hy arthāḥ

prakāsante

(Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 6.23)

(Unto those great souls who have implicit faith in both the Lord and the spiritual master, all the imports of Vedic knowledge are automatically revealed.)

The Guru of our Guru Mahārāja did not know how to write even his name. And our Guru Mahārāja..., at that time nobody was a scholar like him, and he accepted him as his guru. Why? He was speaking Veda, Vedānta. So he was: svayam eva sphuraty adaḥ (CC Madhya 17.136), yasya deve parā bhaktir.

(Therefore material senses cannot appreciate Kṛṣṇa’s holy name, form, qualities and pastimes. When a conditioned soul is awakened to Kṛṣṇa consciousness and renders service by using his tongue to chant the Lord’s holy name and taste the remnants of the Lord’s food, the tongue is purified, and one gradually comes to understand who Kṛṣṇa really is.)

One would be familiar with all such knowledge by having bhagavat-bhakti. He is not bereft of knowledge. God Himself says: teṣām evānukampārtham. Who is a better jñānī than one to whom God gives knowledge by His mercy? Our knowledge is through hearing you or him, but he is hearing from God Himself. See, who will be a better jñānī than him?

Guest: Practical knowledge.

Guest 2: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: For a devotee, a pure devotee, he is not bereft of knowledge. Have you understood?

Guest: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: God Himself is making him jñānī.

Guest: “By remembering Me”, it is said in Gītā, “By remembering Me”.

Prabhupāda: Yes, it is there in buddhi-yoga. God gives him intelligence. And to whom God gives knowledge, who will be a better jñānī—(intelligent) than him? Bhakti is all inclusive. And the knowledge on God includes knowledge on Brahman and knowledge on Paramātmā.

brahmeti paramātmeti

bhagavān iti śabdyate

(SB 1.2.11)

(Learned transcendentalists who know the Absolute Truth call this nondual substance Brahman, Paramātmā or Bhagavān.)

Tattva, tattva, the Absolute Truth. Absolute Truth is nondual. And that Absolute Truth isBrahman, Paramātmā and Bhagavān, these things are non-dual substance (advaita-jñāna tattva).

vadanti tat tattva-vidas

tattvaṁ yaj jñānam advayam

(SB 1.2.11)

Brahman, Paramātmā

brahmeti paramātmeti

bhagavān iti śabdyate

Knowledge. Knowledge. Brahma-jñāna, after that paramātmā-jñāna, after that bhagavat-jñāna. One who has bhagavat-jñāna has brahma-jñāna and paramātmā-jñāna. One who has only brahma-jñāna does not have bhagavat-jñāna. One who has paramātmā-jñāna also does not have bhagavat-jñāna.

Guest: Brahma-jñāna. What is the meaning of brahma-jñāna?

Prabhupāda: Brahma-jñāna means like sunlight. You understand sunlight. That does not mean that you know sun (big). But both of them are light.

Guest: (indistinct) (laughs)

Prabhupāda: He thinks that this ordinary light is bigger, and considers the source of this light to be smaller.

Guest: (indistinct) correct. (indistinct)

Prabhupāda:

yasya prabhā prabhavato jagad-aṇḍa-koṭi-

koṭiṣv aśeṣa-vasudhādivibhūti-bhinnam

tad brahma niṣkalam anantam aśeṣa-bhūtaṁ

(Bs 5.40)

(I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, whose effulgence is the source of the nondifferentiated Brahman mentioned in the Upaniṣads, being differentiated from the infinity of glories of the mundane universe appears as the indivisible, infinite, limitless, truth.)

Brahma niṣkalam ananta. They consider the infinite impersonal Brahman to be the biggest, and consider the source from which it comes to be smaller.

Guest: Just like Bhagavad-gītā (indistinct).

Prabhupāda: What?

Guest: (indistinct).

Prabhupāda Knowledge This knowledge—brahma-jñāna.

Guest: (indistinct) bhagavat-jñāna.

Prabhupāda Brahma-jñāna, paramātmā-jñāna. Paramātmā-jñāna is for yogī, and brahma-jñāna is for jñānī. and for devotees it is bhagavat-jñāna. So Bhagavān, Brahman, Paramātmā.

Guest: Are they different stages?

Prabhupāda: What?

Guest: Are they different stages?

Prabhupāda: Different features. Different features. Just like sun-planet, sun-god and sun-light. Sun-light is brahma-jñāna, and sun-planet is paramātmā-jñāna, and sun-god is bhagavat-jñāna.

Guest: Very good. I see.

Prabhupāda: All three are one. One only, but has different stages. So first stage is brahma-jñāna.

Brahma-bhūta: brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54).

(And of all yogīs, he who always abides in Me with great faith, worshiping Me in transcendental loving service, is most intimately united with Me in yoga and is the highest of all.)

He is very distressed due to inebrities of this world, and after acquiring brahma-jñāna he is happy: brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā. The soul has become happy. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi. He is liberated.

Guest: Then comes second.

Prabhupāda Then second. Paramātmā. Then bhagavat-jñāna.

Guest: (indistinct) It is the same thing as removing 1, and…

Prabhupāda: Zero remains. This is what is happening.

Guest: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Only zero. Just eat zeros. This is all. And here it is working, so zero is discarded and only Kṛṣṇa is taken up. 1 is taken up, all zeros are discarded. Dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra (SB 1.1.2). All that in the name of religion without God is called kaitava-dharma. Cheating.

(Completely rejecting all religious activities which are materially motivated, this Bhāgavata Purāṇa propounds the highest truth, which is understandable by those devotees who are fully pure in heart. The highest truth is reality distinguished from illusion for the welfare of all. Such truth uproots the threefold miseries. This beautiful Bhāgavatam, compiled by the great sage Vyāsadeva (in his maturity), is sufficient in itself for God realization. What is the need of any other scripture? As soon as one attentively and submissively hears the message of Bhāgavatam, by this culture of knowledge the Supreme Lord is established within his heart.)

Guest: Cheating.

Prabhupāda: Cheating. In his notes, commentary, Śrīdhara Svāmī: atra mokṣa-vāñchan paryantaṁ nirastam. Dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo; kaitava-dharma says, this liberated who says I will be liberated, will become one with God, he has also become nirasta. And this is bhakti, which is jñāna-karma-anāvṛtam, there is no tinge of contamination of jñāna and karma. It is pure.

Guest: (some noise) who is that? slowly slowly.

Prabhupāda: Jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu. Only with favourable devotion: kṛṣṇānu-śīlanaṁ. That is pure bhakti. And in Nārada-bhakti-sūtra: anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ jñāna-karma... Eh? No, sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ. Free from all designations. All these designations that I am sannyāsī, I am brāhmaṇa, these are also upâdhis. “I am Parsi, I am Hindu, I am Christian”, these are all designations. So: sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ, when one is free from all these designations, tat-paratvena nirmalam, only with bhagavat-bhāva, pure. At that time the situation you are in... then:

hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣījñānīkeśa-

sevanaṁ bhaktir ucyate

(CC Madhya 19.170)

(Bhakti, or devotional service, means engaging all our senses in the service of the Lord, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the master of all the senses. When the spirit soul renders service unto the Supreme, there are two side effects. One is freed from all material designations, and one’s senses are purified simply by being employed in the service of the Lord.)

At that time the service you are rendering with your purified senses to the master of the senses, hṛṣīkeśa, is called bhakti. As long as these designations are there that, “I am a family member, I look after this, this is my responsibility, this and that”, he is not free from designations.

Guest: It is difficult to give up...

Prabhupāda: Yes it is difficult but there is no way.

Guest: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes. So this is upādhi. When I went to Europe and America for preaching bhagavat-bhakti, if I had upādhi that I have to preach this Hindu-dharma then it would not have been successful. This is full with upādhi; “I identify myself to be a Hindu”. Yes. Then there is... not accepted. They say we got Christinity why should I accept your religion. Instead, Kṛṣṇa is presented, free from all designation. That is why it is successful.

Guest: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Yes. If you go anywhere, if you want to preach Hinduism, why they should be interested in Hinduism. They can hear some words. But we are not talking of Hinduism or Mohammedanism. We are talking on the science of God.

Guest: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes. What is God? What is the conception of God? Oh they have accepted that. "Yes, here is the right concept."

Guest: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest: Back to Godhead.

Prabhupāda: Yes back to God.

Guest: (indistinct) I have distributed Back to Godhead.

Prabhupāda: I shall arrange to distribute, I am getting for 50,000 Back to Godhead. 50,000, I shall distribute.

Guest: Telling him that I made it a proper use. That is what I...

Prabhupāda: You people. We are, sarvopādhi; Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is free from all designations. Kṛṣṇa. We haven't got to present Kṛṣṇa as Indian, as Hindu. Kṛṣṇa is neither of these. Kṛṣṇa says, claims that, “Every living entity is my part and parcel, I am the seed giving father”. Therefore it has become accepted. I never said that, "You become a Hindu." He accepts Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and try to understand the philosophy. What business they have got to become Hindu? But they want to know what is God? That they are doing.

Guest: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: But here at our place, why Kṛṣṇa is considered as only God? (indistinct) therefore they are puzzled, although Kṛṣṇa appeared in India.

Guest: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes, they do not understand Kṛṣṇa.

Guest: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: No, no. Kṛṣṇa... this is also answered by God: avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā (Bg 9.11). Rascal, donkey. He thinks that Kṛṣṇa is a man, a human being. He has been given a title; he is called jñānī.

(Fools deride Me when I descend in the human form. They do not know My transcendental nature and My supreme dominion over all that be.)

Guest: Mūḍhā

Prabhupāda Mūḍhā means, "Donkey".

Guest: (laughter)

Prabhupāda: How does a donkey understand Kṛṣṇa? To understand Kṛṣṇa one needs to have many yoga-practices. Yatatām api siddhānāṁ (BG 7.3), “One who has gained siddhi will understand Kṛṣṇa.

(Out of many thousands among men, one may endeavor for perfection, and of those who have achieved perfection, hardly one knows Me in truth.)

It takes many life times: bahūnāṁ janmanām ante (BG 7.19).

(After many births and deaths, he who is actually in knowledge surrenders unto Me, knowing Me to be the cause of all causes and all that is. Such a great soul is very rare.)

Otherwise if one becomes rascal, and considers Kṛṣṇa like this then that is jñāna-upādhi. Why should we waste many lifetimes, if we have to come to Kṛṣṇa only after many lifetimes, then why not we take Kṛṣṇa now? Speaking very important thing. Why step by step? If you have to accept Kṛṣṇa, why not immediately? That is intelligence.

Guest: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: There is no question of, “Should be”. When Kṛṣṇa says, “I will give you protection”, why, “Should be”? You don’t believe in Kṛṣṇa. He says: ahaṁ tvaṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣa (BG 18.66). You are doubtful about Kṛṣṇa’s capacity. That means you do not know Kṛṣṇa.

(Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reaction. Do not fear.)

Guest: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Guest: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Guest (2): To understand Kṛṣṇa he knows that he is beyond the capacity to understand Him.

Prabhupāda: What is the difficulty? Kṛṣṇa says, “I am everything”. Why don't you accept Him? That means you want to understand Kṛṣṇa in your own way. Why you are becoming intensionally unable?

Guest: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: No. That is second. First of all surrender. Then what way you shall surrender, that is a different thing, another stage. That is more confidential. First of all there is surrender.

Guest: Surrender.

Prabhupāda: First of all you enter this house or this room, then you ask how can I serve you? That is different. First of all there is no surrender, and without surrender—full surrender, there is no entrance in Kṛṣṇa.

Guest: No entrance.

Prabhupāda: No entry. Because those who revolted against Kṛṣṇa, those who wanted to become Kṛṣṇa by imitating Him, they are here in this material world. Icchā-dveṣa samutthena..., sarge yānti parantapa (BG 7.27), sarva-yoni.

(O scion of Bharata (Arjuna), O conqueror of the foe, all living entities are born into delusion, overcome by the dualities of desire and hate.)

This material world: bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19). Creation.

(Again and again the day comes, and this host of beings is active; and again the night falls, O Pārtha, and they are helplessly dissolved.)

They are all the living entities who have come into this created world they have revolted. They wanted to become Kṛṣṇa, to imitate Kṛṣṇa. Therefore they are given the chance, “All right you become Kṛṣṇa. You do whatever you like. I give you facility. You want to become Brahmā, all right you become Brahmā, and you want to become the worm of stool, as you wish.” This is clear. So these living entities are rotating. Sometimes he is becoming Brahmā, sometimes becoming the worm of stool, sometimes this, sometimes that. In this way he is changing bodies. This is material world. And when comes back again Back to Godhead:

yad gatvā na nivartante

tad dhāma paramaṁ mama

(BG 15.6)

(That abode of Mine is not illumined by the sun or moon, nor by electricity. One who reaches it never returns to this material world.)

Then he has not got to come back.

tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma

naiti mām eti so kaunteya

(BG 4.9)

(One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world, but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna.)

So we have to prepare for that position. How to go back to home, how to go back to Kṛṣṇa, and engage ourselves in His service. Then the question is either as mother, as friend or..., that will be considered latter on. First of all let us try how to enter kingdom of God. That is a condition: sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ (Bg 18.66), “You surrender unto me fully giving up all your other engagements, then I take charge of you." Ahaṁ tvāṁ mokṣayiṣyāmi, mokṣayiṣyāmi is nothing for kṛṣṇa-bhakta; mokṣa or liberation. He is doing, He will look after you.

(Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reaction. Do not fear.)

(aside:) Ready. All right.

Hansadutta: Śrīla Prabhupāda invited Baba Bal-Mukund and Vairagya Baba and (indistinct) in Bombay and said Sunday (?) and in the lecture, last two lectures recorded in the morning of the 4th and 5th at Gita Bhavan in Indore and (indistinct) speaking was (indistinct) in the room of Baba Bal-Mukund at the Gita Bhavan and just after the lecture on the 5th. Present now with His Divine Grace in Indore just now, Himavatī and Hansadutta and Revatīnandana brahmacārī.

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) I am willing... (this must be from another lecture) (End)