770626 - Conversation A - Vrndavana
Surendra Kumar: ...that you must make an application of forty to fifty people who Prabhupāda wants that they should be given permanent nationality.
Prabhupāda: So keeping...
Surendra Kumar: Also that we will consider.
Prabhupāda: ...Surendraji here, you make this application draft. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.
Surendra Kumar: And I and Gopāla Kṛṣṇa, we can meet any number of times.
Prabhupāda: So you go with him.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, I think in about two weeks we will go.
Surendra Kumar: Again, after he has been to Bombay, etcetera, we will meet him again.
Prabhupāda: So the application prepare in consultation, taking help and guidance. He is real devotee.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, we'll do it.
Prabhupāda: Don't do alone. Don't do alone.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, no, no.
Surendra Kumar: I told him, first thing, that I am here because I am a life member and I am a devotee of Prabhupāda. That's why I'm here.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Surendra Kumarji praises your efforts very much.
Surendra Kumar: No, there is no question of my praising. The world knows about in fact. His wonders may be...
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This is Prabhupāda's Īśopaniṣad in Arabic. The Middle East countries are buying it.
Surendra Kumar: These people from Tehran... And my friend is a Muslim. He is very... He is just like my sister and my wife's very intimate friend.
Prabhupāda: We have no such question, Hindu, Muslim...
Surendra Kumar: She said, "I'm going to become a devotee. I'm going to become a life member."
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, very good. She's from Delhi?
Surendra Kumar: No, from Aligarh. So yesterday my wife said that "I am going to see Prabhupāda," she said, "I am coming with you."
Mrs. Kumar(?): (Hindi)
Surendra Kumar: She was there when you were there in Aligarh, in my house.
Prabhupāda: I have many Muslims.
Surendra Kumar: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Rāmajana. Here he became... What is that? Rāma-rañjana. Rāma-rañjana.
Surendra Kumar: Rāma-rañjana, his name has been changed... (laughter)
Prabhupāda: Our Attar Mia(?) has become Atreya Ṛṣi.
Surendra Kumar: Attar Mia has become Atreya Ṛṣi.
Mrs. Kumar: So she is my friend.
Surendra Kumar: She is inseparable to my wife, very great friend. And religion has never bothered us. She has been to (indistinct). Yes. "After all, you are a good Muslim."
Prabhupāda: You understand English?
Mrs. Kumar: Yes.
Surendra Kumar: Yes, yes, she is a graduate.
Prabhupāda: Oh. The Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam says, sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje SB 1.2.6 . There are two kinds of religion. One is param, and one is aparam. Para means real religion. Yes. Or spiritual. And apara means material. Generally people are engaged in apara religion. They go to temple, they go to church...
Surendra Kumar: And mosques.
Prabhupāda: ...and mosques for some material benefit. Just like these Christians, "O God, give us our daily bread." We also go to temple. So that is apara. And para means when there will be no demand.
Surendra Kumar: No demand from God.
Prabhupāda: Simply to love Him. Yato bhaktir adhokṣaje. That is para. Our, this line is little difficult, because we are teaching paro dharma.
Surendra Kumar: That's what I was telling her all the time.
Prabhupāda: And the human form of life, this is the only business. This is the only business. But they do not know. They are after... They go to dharma for some material benefit. Dharmasya apavargasya.
Surendra Kumar: My sister says that "Unless and until God so wishes..."
Mrs. Kumar: How to leave this world?
Surendra Kumar: "...how to leave this material world?"
Prabhupāda: She'll leave in material... Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo: BG 18.66 "I shall deliver you." God gives you that. God is protecting actually. And without God's protection, you cannot live. But still more if you absolutely depend on Him. This is our organization. Here also duty, depending on Kṛṣṇa. At least ten to fifteen thousand men we are feeding daily. So how it is being done throughout the whole world? And everywhere opulence like this. We are not poverty-stricken. (Hindi) So simply depending... (Hindi)
Surendra Kumar: (Hindi) Unless we don't want to stay in the...
Prabhupāda: No, no, this is not same. This is apara, para. (laughter) This is para. Yato bhaktir adhokṣaje. Ahaituky apratihatā yayātmā suprasīdati. If you want real peace and happiness, then you have to come to this platform, paro dharma. Material means it has no limit. "I have got so much opulence. I want more. I want more. I want more. I want more." And paro dharma ? Svāmin kṛtārtho 'smi varaṁ na yāce CC Madhya 22.42 . "All right, I don't want anything." This is the... (Hindi conversation)
Surendra Kumar: That I have been not following Prabhupāda when so many people have. We must do our duty to do. Because of our slavery, this righteousness and earnestness has gone out of our life. We are not earnest.
Prabhupāda: Anyway... (Hindi) So this is the first time an attempt to distribute. (Hindi) It is special prerogative for the Indians, to distribute this knowledge. That will glorify India's position.
Surendra Kumar: This is what he was... Vajpayee was hinting at this very thing, that we want to use this organization for spreading our spiritual heritage all over the world. And he said that "I want to utilize your organization for this purpose."
Prabhupāda: So if the opportunity...
Dr. Kapoor: (Hindi)
Surendra Kumar: For the first time you have a government which has thinking of this. Otherwise what do you mean by secularism? Secular does not mean...
Prabhupāda: (Hindi conversation)
Surendra Kumar: Your Divine Grace, it is our good fortune that we have such a administration...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Surendra Kumar: ...in which some of the people are... Advani, for example, and Vajpayeeji. These two people are...
Prabhupāda: What is the Advani? He is other...
Surendra Kumar: They write the...
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Jan Sakirna. (?)
Surendra Kumar: Very nice. They have nothing about..., nothing of Jana-sangha. They have nothing of R.S.S... They have risen very high. They're now saying that this great country must get the rightful place in the world. Why, with all this spiritual heritage...
Prabhupāda: And that should be done.
Surendra Kumar: ...with all this intellectual power, we should not be with a begging bowl.
Prabhupāda: And that is my mission.
Surendra Kumar: Yes, sir. That's what I'm saying, for the first time. Otherwise nobody would have appreciated in the last government. Who was the person to talk...
Prabhupāda: In the Berkeley University I was speaking. One Indian student got up, and he said, "Swamiji, what this Hare Kṛṣṇa will do? Now we require technology," like that. And "Yes, you have come here to beg technology. You remain beggar. I have come to give something."
Surendra Kumar: Correct, sir.
Prabhupāda: "I am not a beggar. I have come here to give something." I replied.
Surendra Kumar: Your Divine Grace was right. He wants the best of people.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is....
Surendra Kumar: Whom you want to call...
Prabhupāda: So you make everything complete today. You busy man...
Surendra Kumar: No, it is not necessary to make today. Let him have your full instructions, who are the people...
Prabhupāda: (Hindi)
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, we'll prepare a draft and read it to you.
Prabhupāda: Take every step, this inquiry. He's experienced.
Surendra Kumar: And, sir, it is very necessary to mention. I will write what Prabhupāda wants that "These people should be given..."
Prabhupāda: The simple thing is that they are...
Surendra Kumar: "...to get Indian citizenship because they are doing this work. They will be doing this work. And their long-time stay, permanent stay in India, will be beneficial for the great work that you have started."
Prabhupāda: And actually, because they are helping me, I have been able...
Surendra Kumar: They have been giving you help.
Prabhupāda: No, I mean to say, these Europeans...
Surendra Kumar: Yes, yes, I know, disciples, they are...
Prabhupāda: Otherwise how could I do?
Surendra Kumar: Sir, Your Divine Grace, to be very honest, I told him in his presence that "You know that we Indians are not honest and earnest about anything. If these people have given up their life there and they are devoting and dedicated their life, let us utilize them so that..."
Prabhupāda: Where is Tamāla? That boy? That black boy? What is his name?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, Ghanaśyāma.
Prabhupāda: Ghanaśyāma. About his activities?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You want me to read it?
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, it is very interesting, how they are fighting against odds to introduce our movement. There is a written description.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: There's one Negro devotee of Prabhupāda. They're distributing books in communist countries. So he has written a report how they are fighting against odds.
Surendra Kumar: Oh, yes, I... Quite right.
Dr. Kumar: Ghanaśyāma came here last year.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. That Negro boy.
Surendra Kumar: I told him that "These people will form the hard core, and that, our organization will be organized and then..." He also said that so many temples are dying out.
Prabhupāda: It will develop. (Hindi conversation) Thakur has become a source of income.
Surendra Kumar: I told him, "We are ready to take over the temples and run away from..." But, as Prabhupāda rightly said, everybody now has made it an institution for...
Prabhupāda: For earning money.
Surendra Kumar: ...for material advancement.
Prabhupāda: As we have got...
Dr. Kumar: No, I tell you, there are people... You see, if you tell them that "Come on, we shall spend a lakh or two lakhs of rupees on this temple. Are you agreeable?" they will say, "No." I have that experience. Why? Because if a temple is not in good condition, they go out, meet people and say, "Look here, this is the condition of the temple. Could you not donate something?"
Prabhupāda: No, I tried. Rādhā-Dāmodara Temple, I have tried.
Dr. Kumar: It's a regular source of business for them. And if the temple is renovated, that source will stop. It is in their interest that the temple may never, is never renovated so that...
Surendra Kumar: They can continuously beg over.
Dr. Kumar: Continuously beg.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You want me to read this, Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Dear Śrīla Prabhupāda..." This is a black devotee. "Please forgive me for my countless offenses against you and the entire Vaiṣṇava community. In desperation I beg that you accept my apology for being such an artificial devotee. My humble obeisances I quickly offer to you. I am simply praying every day for you to force me to become a true disciple. Otherwise I will be doomed."
Prabhupāda: How humble he is!
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Spiritual life means to please the Gurudeva..."
Prabhupāda: He was a principal somewhere?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This boy was the top of his class in Yale University. He's the president of the class, top man in the entire graduating class. (continues reading letter describing preaching activities and book distribution in Communist Yugoslavia) Sometimes my life is being threatened or sought after by the authorities. Still..."
Prabhupāda: It is very dangerous work.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Still Lord Caitanya always gives me protection..." (continues reading letter)
Surendra Kumar: Wonderful.
Prabhupāda: What is the news?
Surendra Kumar: Is he permanently staying there?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, traveling around.
Surendra Kumar: Because I know two very powerful Indians who have settled there.
Prabhupāda: The sales report, book report.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Book sales report?
Prabhupāda: Hm. (background conversation about Ghanaśyāma and preaching in Communist countries)
Surendra Kumar: Actually, what you are doing nobody else has been doing in the past.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Surendra Kumar: Everybody is aware of our great heritage except ourselves. That is the most unfortunate thing.
Prabhupāda: The sales report, what is?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is sales report we just received. It's as of March 6, 1977. It reports the book sales in each language up to date. (reads book distribution figures)
Surendra Kumar: Can I have a copy of this?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah.
Surendra Kumar: Your Divine Grace, when I will write the personal letter to...
Prabhupāda: Give him whatever he wants.
Surendra Kumar: He has stayed with me for one night and one day. I want to have a personal talk with him. (tells about important people who have stayed at his home)
Prabhupāda: Whatever you want, you take.
Surendra Kumar: What I want to (indistinct) "You have been giving the (indistinct) to this man because so many books are being... Here is a man, Indian, whose 550 lakhs of books have been sold. Not a single Indian born up to, from..."
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Surendra Kumar: "...who has written and whose so many copies have been sold over... What are you doing if you can't help this organization?" Because there must be facts...
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.
Surendra Kumar: And the facts must be so brought out, and that will make a new impact on his mind. That must be done. I told him, "You are a worthy man whose two lakhs of books were sold, three lakhs of books. Here is a person, crores of books have been sold. And we should cultivate him as a friend."
Prabhupāda: So whatever materials he wants, give him.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes, definitely.
Prabhupāda: He went to show into foreign language, foreign religion, Caitanya-caritāmṛta. Just see. (laughs) Standing order they give. (Hindi) This Indian culture, push on. Don't keep it lock up.
Surendra Kumar: Under your guidance...
Prabhupāda: Don't keep it lock up. Sarasvatī jñāna-khale yada sati. These words are there in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavata. (Hindi)
Surendra Kumar: Prabhupāda, this man, this literature he understands. He himself composes poetry in Urdu as well as in Hindi. And he likes that our Indian culture and our heritage must be spread all over.
Prabhupāda: So here is the opportunity. Come and join together.
Surendra Kumar: He is fond of these things.
Prabhupāda: And we have got standard. We haven't got to manufacture.
Surendra Kumar: No, there is nothing to manufacture.
Prabhupāda: No, not... Everything is there. Everything is there.
Surendra Kumar: So only these things have to be brought to his knowledge.
Prabhupāda: That's all.
Surendra Kumar: I am a person. I am a devotee. I did not get all this information because the book, that journal that you publish, that also did you not get such data.
Prabhupāda: And the Supreme Person is delivering Himself as Kṛṣṇa and Vedavyasa. Vedavyasa is incarnation of Kṛṣṇa. So Kṛṣṇa is..., mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat BG 7.7 , the supreme man, Supreme Being. He is giving the knowledge, and we have to, have to... Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission is, just distribute what the Supreme Person has given to you. Yāre dekha tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa BG 7.7 . So you haven't got to manufacture. You haven't got to become a scholar.
Surendra Kumar: Yes, I know, you have always been telling that is not what you're saying. What Kṛṣṇa said, you tell them...
Prabhupāda: That's all right. This is very easy. So I am not a scholar. I am simply... Whatever is said there, I am trying to distribute in a palatable way. That's all. It is not my manufacture. And that is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's... Āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra ei deśa CC Madhya 7.128 . You all become guru. "How can I become guru? I have no education. I have no knowledge." No, you haven't got to acquire all these things. That is already... Yāre dekha tāre kaha. Finished. So I never tried to become a scholar. But I tried, whatever is spoken by Kṛṣṇa, deliver. That's all. And that is guru. If some...
Dr. Kumar: Śrīla Prabhupāda, you should rest now.
Prabhupāda: Eh? No...
Surendra Kumar: Talking too much with Your Divine Grace, we have put you through lot of strain.
Prabhupāda: (Hindi)
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He has here nice room. He's had prasādam. He had lunch with us.
Surendra Kumar: Everything is your mercy, Divine Grace.
Prabhupāda: (Hindi conversation) How long we have left Bombay?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We left Bombay about a month and a half ago.
Prabhupāda: (Hindi) ...recommended that... What is that?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hrishikesh.
Prabhupāda: (Hindi) (Hindi conversation)
Dr. Kumar: Going and coming, you see, that gives him a lot of strain.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda feels at home here in Vṛndāvana.
Dr. Kumar: Mentally as well as physically.
Prabhupāda: Yes. I am feeling... (Hindi)
Dr. Kumar: You have fulfilled the mission of your life. You, if at all you pass away, you'll pass with that satisfaction which...
Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Gurukula building... (Hindi conversation) Very, very... Very exalted building.
Dr. Kumar: (Hindi) You got it here or at Bombay?
Prabhupāda: Where we got that, that...?
Dr. Kumar: My book?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We got it here in Vṛndāvana.
Dr. Kumar: (Hindi) Philosophical background of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, so that people may know that this is not a new religion. It's well founded. I've traced the history, the development of Vaiṣṇavism, earliest Vedic period to the present. (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: (Hindi) "The Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is genuine, bona fide." (Hindi) So you are ready? (Hindi) Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] (Hindi conversation) [break]
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The only explanation can be that Kṛṣṇa is in everyone's heart.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Buddhi-yogaṁ dadāmi tam: "I give him intelligence."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In the Kṛṣṇa book there's the part where Lord Brahmā steals away all the calves and children, so then Kṛṣṇa gives Himself instead. So...
Prabhupāda: Not gives. He exands Him...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Expands Himself. So Balarāma is wondering, "How is it possible that everyone is so attracted?" Then the explanation is, "He's Kṛṣṇa." So these books are there. People are automatically attracted. I don't think they're so attracted to any other books.
Prabhupāda: No, what other books? Rubbish. I say, rubbish. There is no book. Mental speculation is not book. Garbage.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Food for crows.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. It is garbage. Tad-vaga-visarga-janata..., pragrnita, tad vayasa-tīrtham: "Garbage for the crows." Yes. No swan will come there. That is already explained. Kṛṣṇa has at least saved us from reading this garbage. We are not interested with any book or newspaper or anything. We kicked out. At least I am not interested in reading any other except Bhāgavata. That is there. Punaḥ punaś carvi... Sex literature, nonsense. "Phu!" Mukha-vikāraḥ bhava... Tad-avadhi bata nārī-saṅgame smaryamāne bhavati mukha-vikaraḥ suṣṭhu niṣṭhīvanam. This is the real... Hm. Let us go to the...
Yaśodānandana: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. [break]
Prabhupāda: You open the door and close. And keep open. Why it is... [break] They will close the closet, and I'll open the door. Close it and go on, open and go on, throne, this... (Hindi) Very well. [break] There is a agent preparing the stolen papers.(?) That now...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Every time I go to the marketplace... [break]
Prabhupāda: And well done, to the next fair(?). What I have got? In the Deity room silver stand, silver lamp, silver plate. I do not find this. [break] ...is known there.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. Seems like more varieties of living entities take birth in Bhāratavarṣa than anywhere else. I don't find... So many different kinds of bugs are there. Here every day a new bug comes out, new type of bug.
Prabhupāda: Not new. You see new. They are all existing.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They hatch. (end)