761106 - Conversation - Vrndavana

Conversations by Date, 1976

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

Listen to a 'Nectar Drop' created from this Conversation

761106R1-VRNDAVAN - November 06, 1976 - 109.54 Minutes

(Conversation with Dr. Theodore Kneupper)

Prabhupāda: The present time, it is called Kali-yuga. (aside) Take little prasādam. Kali-yuga means this age . . . Kali-yuga means the age of quarrel and disagreement.

Dr. Kneupper: Age of . . .?

Prabhupāda: Quarrel and disagreement. Because there is no standard idea. So I'll disagree with you, you'll disagree with me, and on slight provocation there will be fight. This is age called Kali-yuga.

Dr. Kneupper: Do you see that nations will fight too? That there will be wars, things like that?

Prabhupāda: Yes, so many difficulties. Even there is no war, the natural disturbance and foolish government will create such situation that people will become mad in hopelessness.

Dr. Kneupper: Very dark.

Prabhupāda: Very dark, yes. First thing, there will be no rainfall. Due to the sinful activities of the people, from nature the punishment will be there will be no rainfall. I have seen already in Europe. Everywhere there is scarcity of rainfall. And on account of scarcity of rainfall, food production will be reduced. They will try to eat meat, killing, and maintain themselves. But that is also not very prospective. How long you will . . .? The animals will also die. Then in Europe they are doing that, that on account of scarcity of rain there is no grass, so they are thinking, "These animals die for want of food. Let us eat them." This is their intelligence.

Dr. Kneupper: Well, do you see that many people will die, because there's not . . . many people will die.

Prabhupāda: Yes. If there is no rainfall, either animal or men, they will die for want of food.

Dr. Kneupper: What do you think would be the remedy or solution to the problem?

Prabhupāda: Remedy is they should admit that there is God. But they do not admit, especially the so-called scientist rascals and atheist philosophers, politicians. They do not accept the authority of God. They think they will be able to manage things in their own way. And they say clearly, "There is no God." But there is nature. You can say, "I don't care for the government," but the government force is there; police is there; military is there. Similarly, you may say: "Defy the control of government," but the agent of God is there, the material nature. That will punish you. There will be no rain, there will be no food production, and the rascal governments will take advantage of it, "food relief." They'll tax, as if by taxing they will be able to combat with nature. So three things we'll have to meet: no rain, no food, and government taxes. Then how people will remain in sane condition? They will become mad.

Dr. Kneupper: But your teaching, doesn't it offer a way of meeting these problems?

Prabhupāda: Yes. We are teaching people God consciousness. Then everything will be solved.

Dr. Kneupper: You say that man does not understand nature. The scientist studies nature, but yet he doesn't really understand it.

Prabhupāda: Why they do not understand it? Why don't you understand that there is control over us? Where is the difficulty? Foolishly we do not try to understand. Do you admit it, that above us there is control? Do you admit?

Dr. Kneupper: Oh, yes.

Prabhupāda: No, anyone.

Dr. Kneupper: Some people do.

Prabhupāda: Why others? That means they are foolish.

Dr. Kneupper: Yes. Well, each person has his own thought.

Prabhupāda: No, no, that means . . . he may be rascal, but it is a fact there is control over us. Just like if there is no rain, is it not control over you? Can you produce rain?

Dr. Kneupper: I would say that there is a universal intelligence guiding everything.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that means control. How can you deny the control over you?

Dr. Kneupper: What do you understand is man's place in nature? Should he invent, let's say, electricity? Should he invent machines? Do you think these are good, or should he just leave those alone?

Prabhupāda: Well, these are good or bad. Suppose if there was no this comfortable pad. That does not mean that I cannot sit. If there was no electricity, it does not mean we would have died.

Dr. Kneupper: No.

Prabhupāda: There was lamp. We were doing that. So we don't condemn electricity, but it does not mean because we have got electricity, we shall deny the authority of God. That is rascaldom.

Dr. Kneupper: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That is rascaldom. You might have improved from the oil lamp to electricity. That does not mean that you have the control over God.

Dr. Kneupper: Yes, certainly not.

Prabhupāda: So these foolish rascals, because they have improved little, they are denying, "Oh, now there is no need of God. That is opiate." What is that? Opiate?

Jagadīśa: Opiate of the people.

Prabhupāda: "They make the man foolish, God consciousness," and so on, so on. These scientists, they declare, "What is God? This is all superstition."

Dr. Kneupper: But in the world there seem to be many different religions, many different faiths.

Prabhupāda: Religion you may have. Religion means to try to understand God. Any religion—you take Christian religion or Hindu religion or Muhammadan religion—there is little attempt to understand God. So any religion which gives you knowledge of God and you understand what is relation with God, that is perfect religion. We have no quarrel.

Dr. Kneupper: Do you think if all men . . . let's say, all the religions could try to come together . . .

Prabhupāda: Religion means to understand God and to follow God's order. That is religion. Just like government and government law. So if the citizen understands what is the law of the government and abides by it, then he's a good citizen. Similarly, any person who understands God and abides by the order of God, then he is religious. Why do you stand? You may be Christian; I may be Hindu, he may be Muhammadan. It doesn't matter. Everyone should understand God and the relationship with God and act accordingly. Then it is perfect religion. And if there is no conception of God, no carrying out order of the God, that is not religion. That is cheating. But generally they do not accept God—still, he is stamping himself that "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am Christian." He has no idea what is God, how to abide by His order, and they are fighting that "I am Christian and you are Hindu. Therefore we must fight." This is going on. Nobody understands what is God. Pseudo-religion. Practically there is no religion. If there is no government—you make your law, I make my law—then how there will be peace? That is the position. They do not understand what is God, and "I am Christian" or "Hindu" or "Muhammadan, now let us fight." That's all.

Dr. Kneupper: Do you think that there is a special way that Hinduism looks upon man's place in the universe?

Prabhupāda: "The Hindu religion" is a vague term.

Dr. Kneupper: It's a what?

Prabhupāda: It is a vague term. It is not clear. It is not clear. Real term is, it is called Vedic principle. Vedic principle. And in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said: Vedic knowledge means to understand God. Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam (BG 15.15). So anyone who tries to understand God, he is in the Vedic line. Veda means knowledge, so as you get the stock of knowledge, that is called Vedas. But as soon as we say Vedas, they think it is Hindu. Mathematics is a science. So any scientific man will accept mathematics. Where is the question of Hindu mathematics? Gold is gold. If it is in the hand of Hindu, it is Hindu gold? Hindu, Muslim gold? Gold is gold. But when we give the Vedic knowledge, they think it is Hindu idea.

Dr. Kneupper: Are you saying that this knowledge has appeared in many forms?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Dr. Kneupper: Does it appear also in, let's say, Christianity, in Muslim, Muhammadanism?

Prabhupāda: No, no, I say that every religion, there is an attempt to understand God. Why do they not understand God, what is God? Then everything will be solved. But they are decrying, "There is no God. God is dead," and "There is no need of God, now we have got science." In every step they are trying to kill God. That's all.

Dr. Kneupper: That's true of certain people, but there are also many . . .

Prabhupāda: Majority, they do not understand what is God.

Dr. Kneupper: There are many sincere seekers, I think, in Christians and Muslims. At least I have met.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That must be. There must be some sincere men. That can be admitted. But still the sincere man also does not understand clearly what is the meaning of God. "I believe in God." "I believe in God," they say. Just like in America they say: "We trust in God." But what is God, he does not know. So what is the meaning of this, "I trust in God"? That is a phobia.

Dr. Kneupper: It probably means many things.

Prabhupāda: If I say: "What do you mean by God?" they cannot give any clear definition. And our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is, "Here is God. Take Him." But they have no knowledge. They will say, "They are presenting some Hindu god," and then they do not accept Him.

Dr. Kneupper: What do you understand by that word "God"?

Prabhupāda: God means supreme controller.

Dr. Kneupper: Super . . .?

Prabhupāda: Controller.

Dr. Kneupper: The master of the universe.

Prabhupāda: That's it.

Dr. Kneupper: Well is that . . . do you think that this concept is, let's say, the special insight of the Vedic?

Prabhupāda: No, no. You, as a philosopher, you can understand that there is supreme controller. Can you deny it?

Dr. Kneupper: I would . . . only with great difficulty, I think, it seems to me.

Prabhupāda: Yes, it is . . . you cannot deny it. But they foolishly deny it. Therefore they are rascals. So how you can convince the rascals the right way? If you give me a dozen of dogs, can I convince him that what is God?

Dr. Kneupper: Hardly. They have no capacity to understand.

Prabhupāda: But they have no capacity. The modern civilization, we are creating dogs and hogs, so how they will understand God?

Dr. Kneupper: Do you think there will always be a few who understand?

Prabhupāda: Certainly. Unless one . . . but if there is a class of men, ideal, who understands God, then people will follow. We require one moon; then the darkness will be dissipated. But if in the millions of stars, what is the use? So they are creating millions of rascals, not one sane man, the modern civilization, the so-called philosophers, so-called scientists. Don't mind. This is the fact.

Dr. Kneupper: Do you basically reject the modern civilization?

Prabhupāda: No, no. I say they are being foolishly trained.

Dr. Kneupper: I see.

Prabhupāda: The whole education system is bad.

Dr. Kneupper: Can you see no hope that there will be change?

Prabhupāda: There is hope. There is cent percent hope, provided you accept the right way.

Dr. Kneupper: But would you say the right way would have to be, let's say, to be a follower of Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: "God" means Kṛṣṇa.

Dr. Kneupper: What about . . .? As I understand, in the Gītā . . .

Prabhupāda: God . . . Kṛṣṇa means all-attractive. So God must be all-attractive, full controller. Our definition of God is,

aiśvaryasya samagrasya

vīryasya yaśasaḥ śriyaḥ

jñāna-vairāgyayoś caiva

sannam iti bhagam itīṅganāḥ

(Viṣṇu Purāṇa 6.5.47)

All wealth, all power, all intelligence, all beauty, all renunciation. In this way.

Jagadīśa: These are new books in French, Kṛṣṇa book and Upadeśāmṛta. This devotee has just brought them from Bhagavān dāsa.

Prabhupāda: Oh. Thank you. When you have come?

Devotee: Two days ago.

Prabhupāda: Oh. (to Professor) You know French language?

Dr. Kneupper: Yes. Yes, I saw a copy earlier today at the . . . the man who did the translation, I forget his name. From Chicago, I think. He worked on the translation. It's very beautiful.

Prabhupāda: Oh, you have seen it.

Dr. Kneupper: Yes. I forget his name. It's very nice. Very beautiful.

Prabhupāda: This is French book, Kṛṣṇa.

Jagadīśa: Umāpati.

Dr. Kneupper: Yes, Umāpati. Yes.

Prabhupāda: Oh, Umāpati. He is here.

Dr. Kneupper: Yes, I met him this afternoon. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . give the idea of God.

Dr. Kneupper: To try to teach, try to help people understand.

Prabhupāda: And now in India another danger is that so many rascals, they are declaring, "I am God." And this India, people have become so fallen down, they accept all these rascals as God.

Dr. Kneupper: Do you think the same problem is here in India as in other countries?

Prabhupāda: No, in your country there is no God. That is another problem. (laughter) There is no God. And here rascals are God.

Dr. Kneupper: I see.

Prabhupāda: The problem remains the same. You say frankly, "There is no God," but these rascals say: "There is God, but here is my God." And he says, "No, here is my God."

Dr. Kneupper: No one knows the real God.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) No one knows the real God.

Dr. Kneupper: How does one distinguish between what is a false God . . .

Prabhupāda: This is the formula. Just like aiśvaryasya. Now, you have got some money, but you cannot say that, "I have got all the money of the world." That you cannot say. You may possess some states, but you cannot say that "I am the owner of all the states." So God is the proprietor. You have got your country. Which country you belong to?

Dr. Kneupper: United States.

Prabhupāda: United States. So you have got certain area. But when you go to the seaside, then who is the proprietor of the sea? As philosopher, will you not think it?

Dr. Kneupper: There is no proprietor, strictly speaking.

Prabhupāda: Why no proprietor? A small tank if you dig, you immediately claim, "This is my tank," and such a big ocean, and there is no proprietor? As philosopher, how you can think like that?

Dr. Kneupper: Well, I think of what is the basis of property, property is just a convention . . . (break)

Prabhupāda: Suppose I go in a park. There is nice tank, reservoir of water, well decorated. And if I think, "There is no proprietor," is it not my foolishness? There must be one proprietor, but I do not know him. That is real sense. Similarly, everything has got proprietor. Why the sea and the land, the so many other things, why there is no proprietor? This is foolishness.

Dr. Kneupper: I don't understand how this relates to distinguishing who are the true teachers . . .

Prabhupāda: No, that I have already explained. Everyone is foolish now. You cannot distinguish who is thief and who is not thief. Thakbaj se gaon ojo. (The village is full of cheaters.) If you study everyone, you will find everyone is rascal at the present moment.

Dr. Kneupper: But surely there are some who are sincere.

Prabhupāda: Some must be there. There is no doubt about it. But they are so in minority, who will hear about them? "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." The whole world is rascal. If somebody is intelligent, who cares for him? Just like people laugh at me that I am talking of God. I am not only talking; I am writing so many books. My only endeavor is to understand God, that's all. There is no sectarian. And I am selling my books all over the world. So not that everyone is foolish. They're trying to understand my presentation, big, big scholars, big, big philosophers. Yes.

Dr. Kneupper: Oh yes, we have many of them in our library.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So there is knowledge. If people kindly take it, everything will be solved. But they have stubbornly denied, "No God." And I am stubbornly fighting, "Yes, there is God." That is the . . . now the whole America is combining to fight against me, opposition that, "This man is brainwashing, controlling the mind, and our children are kidnapped." They are bringing these charges against us. Just like you have come. Have I kidnapped you?

Dr. Kneupper: Oh, no.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) But these rascals say that I have kidnapped their children.

Indian man (2): But judgment has been taken.

Prabhupāda: There must be judgment, but people have become so rascal. So I am trying to convince, although single-handed that, "There is God," and they are bringing opposition.

Indian man (2): That is the real philosophy. That is not only Indian philosophy; this is universal philosophy.

Prabhupāda: Yes. God is for everyone.

Indian man (2): God, the almighty powerful.

Prabhupāda: God is not Hindu God, Muslim God, Christian. God is God. Now when I say: "Here is God. His name is Kṛṣṇa. His father's name is Nanda Mahārāja," now they will laugh.

Dr. Kneupper: Do you think if a person is to be a real believer in God he has to also worship Kṛṣṇa or speak of Him?

Prabhupāda: No, God means Kṛṣṇa. He has to understand it. Therefore so many books. God has many names, millions, of which Kṛṣṇa name is the most important. Kṛṣṇa means all-attractive. Then you have to understand the science of God. How Kṛṣṇa is God, that you have to understand. But for that reason we are publishing so many books. We have already published eighty-four books, simply in English language. And they are being translated in German, French, Portuguese, then Spanish, Dutch, Swedish, Italian, Chinese, Japanese, Hindi, Bengali, like that.

Dr. Kneupper: It's a very great effort.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And we are getting response. Our books are selling like hotcakes. (laughter) Yes.

Indian man (2): This is about Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Prabhupāda: Yes, Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa, the person.

Indian man (3): Kṛṣṇa, the person. His book.

Indian man (2): His book.

Prabhupāda: Here it is written.

Indian man (3): Yes, the Supreme Personality.

Prabhupāda: "Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead." It is written there?

Dr. Kneupper: Yes, I saw it.

Prabhupāda: "Supreme Personality of Godhead." Yes.

Dr. Kneupper: This is a book of Kṛṣṇa. "The complete resume of the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam."

Prabhupāda: Tenth Canto.

Indian man (3): The person does not want to solve the questions. They want only to get riches. They want to get rich like . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: No, they don't want simple things.

Indian man (2): And what is the use of becoming rich man? It is all fruitless.

Prabhupāda: Rich man you can become, but for how long you shall be rich? The nature is so cruel; at any moment he'll take away everything. Then what is the use of becoming? No, you become rich man. There is no . . . but you should know that "Although I am rich, powerful, everything can be taken by nature at any moment." Mṛtyuḥ sarva-haraś cāham (BG 10.34). That is statement of God, that "Any moment . . . you try to become rich, powerful, and president and minister, that's all right, but any moment, I can take everything from you." So who will protect himself? They have no brain that, "Whatever I have created, it can be taken at any moment." So what is that confidence? They have no inquiry even. That this is a fact. Either you become Napoleon, Hitler or Gandhi or this or that, any moment everything will be taken away, "Get out." Not only that, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13), you have to accept another body. And that is no guarantee what body you are going to get, because it is fully under the control of nature. They therefore don't believe in transmigration of the soul. And that is very great botheration. They try to evade. But Kṛṣṇa says, God says: "You cannot evade. It is nature's law." Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā (BG 2.13). Within your body the soul is there. On account of presence of the soul—you were a child, now you are a grown young man—the body has changed. You were a boy, now you are young man. So on account of presence of the soul, the body is changing. So when this body will be finished, the soul will exist. Therefore, naturally you have to conclude there will be another body.

Dr. Kneupper: Is it possible to escape the conditions of being in the body?

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is possible. That is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. And that is the real problem. As soon as you get a body, you are in trouble.

Dr. Kneupper: What is the purpose of there being a body?

Prabhupāda: Being in body means . . . what is the purpose of being in the jail? Is there any purpose?

Dr. Kneupper: Certainly for some punishment.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So because we are punished, therefore we are getting this body.

Dr. Kneupper: Why does man . . . why does the soul come into the body in the first place?

Prabhupāda: Punishment.

Dr. Kneupper: But he must have done something . . .

Prabhupāda: You want to enjoy. Can you understand this? Everyone is trying to enjoy. So enjoy independently means that you don't care for . . . that is the fact. They don't care for God. So because they don't care for God, therefore they are punished, "You take care of your body." And as soon as you care for God, then there is no material body. Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti. So God, therefore, teaches us how to get out of this body.

Dr. Kneupper: That's the whole idea of mokṣa?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Dr. Kneupper: Mokṣa?

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is. Mokṣa means to stay in your original body. And bondage means we want different types of enjoyment, so God gives us the facility: "All right. Enjoy." If I do not make any discrimination of food . . . as human being, we must have discrimination. But if you don't discriminate, then you get the body of a pig. You can eat even stool. If you want to eat meat unrestricted, you become a tiger. Nature will give you facility. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). Dehāntara. And there are 8,400,000's of bodies. So according to your desire, you'll get a body. God will give you.

Dr. Kneupper: Is that what is meant when a man thinks when he dies, at the moment of his death . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Kneupper: He goes there. Are there many places, let's say, beyond the physical?

Prabhupāda: So many places. Don't you see, night?

Dr. Kneupper: No, I mean beyond this physical, three-dimensional universe.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. This is only one-fourth part manifestation of God's property. The three-fourth part is the spiritual world.

Dr. Kneupper: Are there different regions for these higher worlds?

Prabhupāda: Beyond this universe. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. (aside) Find out. Paras tasmāt tu bhāvo 'nyo 'vyakto 'vyaktāt sanātanaḥ (BG 8.20). Find. He'll find out. Every information is there in the Bhagavad-gītā.

Dr. Kneupper: In the Bhagavad-gītā.

Prabhupāda: Mmm. That is the beginning of God consciousness.

Hari-śauri:

paras tasmāt tu bhāvo 'nyo

'vyakto 'vyaktāt sanātanaḥ

yaḥ sa sarveṣu bhūteṣu

naśyatsu na vinaśyati

(BG 8.20)

Prabhupāda: Naśyatsu na vinaśyati. When everything in this material will be annihilated, that will exist. There is another world. Read it.

Hari-śauri: "Yet there is another nature, which is eternal and is transcendental to this manifested and unmanifested matter. It is supreme and is never annihilated. When all in this world is annihilated, that part remains as it is."

Prabhupāda: Purport?

Hari-śauri: Purport: "Kṛṣṇa's superior spiritual energy is transcendental and eternal. It is beyond all the changes of material nature, which is manifest and annihilated during the days and nights of Brahmā. Kṛṣṇa's superior energy is completely opposite in quality to material nature. Superior and inferior nature are explained in the Seventh Chapter."

Prabhupāda: There are two natures. One is material nature; one is spiritual nature. The material nature—earth, water, fire, air, sky, mind, intelligence, ego—and beyond that, apareyam itas tu viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parām. This is inferior nature. Beyond this, there is a superior nature. And that superior, jīva-bhūtāṁ mahā-bāho yayedaṁ dhāryate jagat (BG 7.5). That is the living entity. This big universe, this is material. But the living entities, because they are using this material for their so-called advancement, comforts . . . and because they have the power to utilize these material matters for their own purpose, they are superior. This is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. And because this nature is being utilized, one is being utilized and one is utilizer. The utilizer is the superior, and the things utilized, they are inferior, but both of them are nature, God's nature. This is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā.

Dr. Kneupper: Is there time in the higher nature?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Dr. Kneupper: Is there time?

Prabhupāda: No. Higher nature means eternal.

Dr. Kneupper: There are no changes in the higher nature?

Prabhupāda: Changes when he gets into this material, inferior nature. He has to change the body, one circumstance to another, another, another, according to his desire. Just like you get a lump of dirt. You can mold it. You can make a pot. You can make a doll. So we are doing that. Child . . . the father has given birth to the child, and father has given the child a lump of earth, and he's playing. That's all. For both of them, the father is the proprietor. If the child wants to play, father says: "All right, play." So he's sometimes breaking, sometimes crying, sometimes laughing. This is going on.

Dr. Kneupper: Then he goes back.

Prabhupāda: Yes, if he gets sense. Therefore the father comes, that "You give up all this nonsense. Come home."

sarva-dharmān parityajya

mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja

ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo

mokṣayiṣyāmi . . .

(BG 18.66)

So if you surrender to God, if you have grown up from the childish nature to the real human nature, then surrender to Kṛṣṇa, or God. Then our life is perfect. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). (aside) Find out this verse.

Hari-śauri:

bahūnāṁ janmanām ante

jñānavān māṁ prapadyate

vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti

sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ

(BG 7.19)

"After many births and deaths, he who is actually in knowledge surrenders unto Me, knowing Me to be the cause of all causes and all that is. Such a great soul is very rare."

Prabhupāda: That's it. So everyone can become a great soul if he accepts the proposal of God. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śara . . . (BG 18.66). Everything is solved. But that he'll not do. Just like your first question was the "How to solve these problems?" The problems will be solved as soon as he surrenders to God. But that he'll not do. He is bigger than God. He will make solution by his own plan. This is the difficulty.

Dr. Kneupper: Is that because of the age?

Prabhupāda: No, this is the . . . just like anyone is in the prison house, they are all criminals. But some of them are first-class prisoners, some of them second-class, some of them third-class. But they are prisoner. Similarly, according to different time, people are more or less god . . . godless. So this time is more godless. The prison house is filled up with more third-class prisoners.

Dr. Kneupper: How long does that period last?

Prabhupāda: Well, now this age will . . . the duration of this age is calculated 4,3200 . . . 432 hundred thousands of years. Out of that we have passed only 500,000 . . . no, five thousand years.

Dr. Kneupper: A long time to go.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But why should you wait for the long time? You can go back to home, back to . . . immediately. That is our proposal, that "Why should you wait?" This may be long time. But we . . . you give up the connection with the material world. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya (BG 4.9). If you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then after giving up this body you go back to home, back to Godhead. Then you have no connection, this. But we are make planning here, "We shall be comfortable." This is rascaldom.

Indian man (2): We indulge our time . . .

Prabhupāda: We should stop all rascal plan and should take the plan given by God. Then it will be . . . everything will be all right. Simple solution. The God's plan is there in this book. Let us take it. Then everything is solved. But "No, we are scientist. We are philosopher. We are big man, politician. We shall make our own." Do, and suffer. God has given freedom: "All right." Yathecchasi tathā kuru (BG 18.63). Kṛṣṇa is saying in the Bhagavad-gītā after explaining Arjuna everything, then He asked, "What you have decided? Your plan or My plan?" So Kṛṣṇa said, "I am giving you freedom. Whatever you like, you can do." The plan is there. Now it is up to us to accept it or reject it. If you reject, you suffer. If you accept, you become happy. So we are requesting people, "Accept it." This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. "Then you'll be happy." But who cares for us? He is making his own plan. Therefore he must suffer. Nature's law he cannot avoid. That's not possible. Nature's law, there is drought. And if God likes, immediately there will be rain. Yajñād bhavati parjanyaḥ. That is also stated. (aside) So read that. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni, annād.

annād bhavanti bhūtāni

parjanyād anna-sambhavaḥ

yajñād bhavati parjanyo

yajñaḥ karma-samudbhavaḥ

(BG 3.14)

The formula is there. (devotees looking for verse) Annād bhavanti bhūtāni parjanyād anna-sambhavaḥ, yajñād bhavati parjanyaḥ. Annāt, a-n-n-a-t. Get this light there on.

Jagadīśa: This one?

Prabhupāda: Yes, the outside. So all philosophers, all scientists, all politicians, let us combine together. The formula is there. (aside) Read it.

Hari-śauri:

annād bhavanti bhūtāni

'parjanyād anna-sambhavaḥ

yajñād bhavati parjanyo

yajñaḥ karma-samudbhavaḥ

(BG 3.14)

"All living bodies subsist on food grains, which are produced from rains. Rains are produced by performance of yajña, sacrifice, and yajña is born of prescribed duties."

Prabhupāda: That's it. There is no prescribed duties. Everyone is a butcher. Formerly there was distinction: "Here is a butcher," "Here is a religious man." At the present moment everyone is a butcher. Who is religious man? There was division, at least one class, first-class man, second-class man, third-class man. Then, if there is ideal first-class man, even the fourth class, third class, he'll take the idea, "Oh, here is first class." But there is no first-class man. All fourth-class men. So who will give idea? And they want to remain fourth class. If you say that "You become first class," they will laugh: "What is the use of becoming first class?" First class means, find out, śamo damas titikṣā, then, brahma-karma svabhāva-jam.

Jagadīśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what did you want? You asked me to do something . . .

Prabhupāda: I want the light on the veranda.

Jagadīśa: It's on.

Prabhupāda: That's all right.

Hari-śauri:

śamo damas tapaḥ śaucaṁ

kṣāntir ārjavam eva ca

jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ

brahma-karma svabhāva-jam

(BG 18.42)

"Peacefulness, self-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, wisdom, knowledge and religiousness—these are the qualities by which the brāhmaṇas work."

Prabhupāda: And if I teach that "I'll teach you how to become truthful," they will laugh. People will say: "Can anyone exist nowadays, simply becoming truthful?" Then damaḥ, self-controlled. If I say: "Come here. I shall teach you how to control your senses," he will laugh that, "What is this nonsense? We shall enjoy life, and shall control senses?" This is the description of the first-class man, śamo damas titikṣā ārjava, saralatā, simplicity. No one is prepared to become first-class man. They will laugh. These are all primitive ideas.

Dr. Kneupper: You think there is nobody like that?

Prabhupāda: Not nobody, there are. But people generally will not like that, "These are primitive ideas, to become truthful, simple and controlling the mind, controlling . . . these are all imaginary things. How one can live in the struggle for existence by becoming truthful?" They will say like that. Therefore everyone is fourth class. And the second-class man, kṣatriya?

Hari-śauri:

śauryaṁ tejo dhṛtir dākṣyaṁ

yuddhe cāpy apalāyanam

dānam īśvara-bhāvaś ca

kṣātraṁ karma svabhāva-jam

(BG 18.43)

"Heroism, power, determination, resourcefulness, courage in battle, generosity and leadership are the qualities of work for the kṣatriyas."

Prabhupāda: This is kṣatriya. Now, who is kṣatriya? A fourth-class man, he never seen battlefield, and by vote he becomes president. And here kṣatriya means yuddhe cāpy apalāyanam. If there is fight he must come forward first of all. He is in his palace, and he's engaging common men, "Go and fight." When there was Battle of Kurukṣetra, Arjuna and Duryodhana, they came first. Because the battle was decided as soon as the leader is dead. No more fight. So they used to come first. This is kṣatriya. Where is that kṣatriya? And they are becoming politicians simply by votes, all third-class, fourth-class men. What he'll do? Everyone is trying to keep his position by hook and crook. How he'll think of the people? How they will be happy? He is thinking of his own happiness. And these are politicians. There is no kṣatriya. There is no Brahmin. And there is no vaiśya. What is the vaiśya?

Hari-śauri: Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44).

Prabhupāda: Hmm. A vaiśya means he should provide food. So food means agriculture and giving protection to the cows. If you have got sufficient food grains and milk, the whole food question is solved. And these rascals, they are not giving protection to the cows, but they are killing cows. So there is no third-class men even. All fourth-class. So how you can be happy under the control of fourth-class men? There is no first-class men, no second-class men, even no third class. That means all fourth class, fifth class. That's all. This is the human society, combination of fourth-, fifth-, tenth-class men. Tenth-class. The fourth-class . . . there are fourth-class men and more than that, fifth-class men, uncivilized. Aborigines, they are fifth class. Kirāta-hūṇāndhra-pulinda-pulkaśā ābhīra-śumbhā yavanāḥ khasādayaḥ (SB 2.4.18). There are so many. In the human civilized . . . civilization means there must be first-class men, second-class men, third-class men, fourth-class men. Then rest all fifth class, up to tenth class. But at the present moment there is some fourth-class men and all fifth class, sixth class, up to tenth class. So how we can be happy? There is no first-class men, there is no second-class men, not even third-class men. Who is caring for agriculture? They are preparing Goodyear Tire. Now eat tires. You rascal, eat tires. How long you'll eat tires? If there is no customer for tire, they're finished.

So that is coming. I went to Detroit about six months ago. There're factories. They have manufactured the wheels, huge stock. That means they are not selling. And the Goodyear Tire, they advertising, "So many millions tires we are manufacturing." You have been in Detroit? Yes. They're proud that "We have manufactured so many tires, so many wheels." The time will come when there will be no purchaser for tires and wheels, and they'll starve. That is coming. What they will do? If they become hungry there is no food grain. For some time they will eat, killing the cows, and then there will be no food, and what these tire and wheels will do? But there is no first-class brain, that "We are wasting time by manufacturing tires and wheels. Without wheels we could live, but how we shall live without food grain?" There is no brain, no first-class men, no second-class men, no third-class men.

Dr. Kneupper: There are farmers who produce . . .

Prabhupāda: Well, in your country there is some adjustment because it is very big country, and you are all intelligent people. In other countries they are . . . but even though you have got resources, if you not properly utilize it, then the bad time is coming. You should expect. If your energy is all engaged in manufacturing tires and wheels, then who will go to the . . . actually I have seen in your country. Now the farmers' son, they do not like to remain in the farm. They go in the city. I have seen it. The farmers' sons, they do not like to take up the profession of his father. So gradually farming will be reduced, and the city residents, they are satisfied if they can eat meat. And the farmer means keeping the . . . raising the cattle and killing them, send to the city, and they will think that, "We are eating. What is the use of going to . . ." But these rascals have no brain that, "If there is no food grain or grass, how these cattle will be . . .?"

Actually it is happening. They are eating swiftly. "The cattle will die. Before they die, let us kill and eat." Actually it is happening. In Italy they killed because the problem is twenty thousand cows. This is going on. They do not care that killing is sinful, because they don't care for God. This is going on. And sinful, sinful, sinful, everyone will be punished. The nature's law will act. Thakbaj se gaon ojo. (The village is full of cheaters.) There is a Bengali proverb, thakbaj se gaon ojo, (the village is full of cheaters,) that "One man wanted to take statistics, 'How many thieves are there in this village?' So when he began to take statistics, he saw everyone is thief. Then he said that 'What is the use of making statistics? This is village of thieves, that's all.' " So it is . . . at the present moment this is the position. If you make a statistics who is sinful and who is not sinful, you will find all sinful. And because they are sinful, they decry the existence of God. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante . . . (aside) Find out this, Seventh . . . because they are all sinful, they deny the existence of God. This is the position. Read it.

Hari-śauri:

na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ

prapadyante narādhamāḥ

māyayāpahṛta-jñānā

āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ

(BG 7.15)

"Those miscreants who are grossly foolish, lowest amongst mankind, whose knowledge is stolen by illusion and who partake of the atheistic nature of demons do not surrender unto Me."

Prabhupāda: That's it. So you'll find everyone of this description, either sinful or lowest of the mankind or rascal or puffed-up with false knowledge. But basic principle is: no God. So the only solution is let them first of all become God conscious. Then all solution. Otherwise there is no hope.

Dr. Kneupper: The problem is very complex . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, it must be complex. They will create complexity.

Dr. Kneupper: And the solution is very simple.

Prabhupāda: Solution. Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etām . . . and that we are preaching, that "You become God conscious. Everything will be solved." And who is caring for us? Rather, they are giving opposition that, "These rascals are kidnapping our sons, brainwashing, controlling the mind," creating courts case. Just see. This is going on.

Dr. Kneupper: Do you see as a . . . when you're describing that if the world were going to be God conscious, it would . . .

Prabhupāda: Everything will be solved.

Dr. Kneupper: But you were describing the caste system or the . . .

Prabhupāda: This is not caste system. It is natural. There is always an intelligent class of men in the society. So they should be, what is called, listed. They should be trained up properly.

Dr. Kneupper: How do you envision . . .? Would you envision . . .?

Prabhupāda: Just like you are a philosopher. So you should not make only theories, "perhaps." But actually, by your philosophy, you establish the existence of God. Then you are philosopher. Idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā sviṣṭasya sūktasya . . . (SB 1.5.22). Find out this verse in the Bhāgavata. Avicyuto 'rthaḥ kavibhir nirūpito yad-uttamaśloka. If by your philosophical knowledge you prove, "Yes, there is God," then your philosophy study is perfect. And if you philosophize, "There is no God," that is useless waste of time. To gain popularity, if you make philosophy like . . . in your country there are so many rascal philosophers—Darwin, Freud. They are all rascals. They are predominant.

Dr. Kneupper: I think there is some misunderstanding that many Americans may have about teaching that you have. Maybe you can clarify it.

Prabhupāda: No you clarify it. It is your duty. You are philosopher.

Dr. Kneupper: Well, that's why I am trying to understand it.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Kneupper: I think it's something like this, that . . . I've learned it from other of your devotees, or devotees of Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: No, we have got our books. You are philosopher. You can read. You can understand the whole thing. There is no question of "This devotee, that devotee." We are giving in writing. So we cannot deny that.

Dr. Kneupper: The question, though, is that there seems to be an advo . . . you advocate that there be a kind of Vedic society, that you are . . .

Prabhupāda: No, Vedic means knowledge, intelligent society. Why do you understand Vedic? Veda means knowledge. Vetti veda-vido jñānena. This Veda word coming from knowledge. When I say that, "Here is a man of knowledge," so what is the objection? Is there any objection? If I say that "Here is Mr. Such-and-such, a man of knowledge," so is there any objection?

Dr. Kneupper: Is there a what?

Prabhupāda: Is there any objection?

Hari-śauri: Is there any objection.

Prabhupāda: Will anybody object?

Dr. Kneupper: It depends on whether the man shows himself to be a man of knowledge.

Prabhupāda: No, no. If I present you that, "Here is a man of knowledge," so what is the objection? Everyone welcomes knowledge.

Dr. Kneupper: Yes, but one has to also show that he has knowledge.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is next. First of all, if I say that "Here is a man of knowledge," where is the objection? Now, whether you are man of knowledge, that will be tested next. But if I introduce you that, "Here is a man of knowledge . . ." Similarly if I say: "Here is man who knows Vedas," so why the objection? Knowledge is for everyone. Why do they take, "Oh, Vedas, oh, it is Hindu"? Immediately you reject.

Dr. Kneupper: I don't think it's so much question of rejecting the Vedas . . .

Prabhupāda: No, Vedas, they do not know what is Vedas. They think it is Hindu. This is the difficulty. As soon as say "Bhagavad-gītā," "Oh, it is Hindu idea."

Dr. Kneupper: Well, many, many people do . . .

Prabhupāda: But that means they do not know what is the meaning of Bhagavad-gītā, what is the meaning of Vedas. Unnecessarily they put some outside . . . just like they are doing now. They do not know what is knowledge, and they are accusing us that we are brainwashing. We are forbidding our devotees, "Don't eat meat." Oh, they are taking it: "It is revolutionary. Eh? How these men, they are stopping?" (someone enters) Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Indian man (4): Apni bhalo achen? Ami Bholanath. Ami Benaras e thaki, ami ajke . . . (How are you? I am Bholanath. I am from Benaras, today . . .) (break)

Prabhupāda: So this is difficulty. If I say, "Here is a person who knows mathematics," why there should be . . . any person who is interested in mathematics will welcome him. So similarly, here is Vedic knowledge. Vedic knowledge means real knowledge. Here is Bhagavad-gītā, the knowledge of God, but they misunderstand it. They think, "Oh, we have got another God." How God can be another? So people should be sober, that we are giving books. They should understand. And it is accepted by the educated class, big, big professors, big, big philosophers. It is not blind faith. Just like this version of Bhagavad-gītā, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13): "As we are changing body even in this duration of life, similarly, when this body is finished, then another body." So where is the difficulty to understand? But they will say, "It is Hindu idea." Fact we are presenting that, "You are changing your body. When you came out of the womb of your mother, the body was so small. And then little bigger body, little bigger body, little bigger body. Now you are full-grown young man." So the body is changing, everyone can understand. But I can understand also that, "I had so big . . . small body and this body. Then body is changing; I am existing." Then where is the difficulty of the transmigration of the soul?

Dr. Kneupper: Many people do accept it.

Prabhupāda: But as soon as we say . . . "Oh, this is Hindu idea"; reject immediately. This is science, and they are taking "Hindu idea."

Indian man (2): The problem is that identification only Indian philosophy . . . (indistinct) . . . otherwise it is universal philosophy.

Prabhupāda: It is universal, but they are taking it as Indian.

Indian man (2): In order to identify that, Vedic, let's say Indian, actually that is not Indian.

Prabhupāda: No, whatever it may be, knowledge is knowledge. It may be Indian or American, it doesn't matter. Just like university. Some student from India go to university in America to study higher knowledge. So that means that because he has gone to America, that is American knowledge? Knowledge is knowledge. So they should take on this background. But they are thinking that we are spoiling their children, brainwashing, controlling the mind, because against their principle, against their uncivilized way of life: meat-eating, illicit sex, intoxication. This is uncivilized life. Why a man, civilized man, shall eat meat? He can prepare so many nice things. He has learned how to produce food, food grain. When they are uncivilized—there is no food; they do not know how to grow food—they can eat animal in the jungle. But if after becoming civilized, if you are eating the same thing, then what is the difference between civilization and not civilization? You have learned. And especially in your America you can get all nice foodstuff. You have got sufficient grains, sufficient fruits, sufficient vegetables, sufficient . . . everything sufficient. Why you should eat meat? This is uncivilized life. They could not give up the uncivilized way of life. And when you teach that "You become civilized. Give up this all nonsense. Don't eat." "Oh, it is brainwashing." You see? We are teaching them to become civilized, and they are taking it brainwashing.

Dr. Kneupper: Is that a teaching of the Bhagavad-gītā, that one should not eat meat?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Not . . . meat-eating is third-class man's eating. It is not denied. Amedhya. But to give us our life, don't kill cows, because it gives you milk, very substantial food. If you want to eat meat, you can eat the hogs and dogs. But don't kill the cows. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam (BG 18.44). This is special. It is not forbidding meat-eating, but don't eat cows' flesh. That is loss. It is a great loss to the human society. If they do not have sufficient milk production, then their brain will be dull. They will not be able to understand subtle things. Therefore it is better to avoid it. But if you cannot avoid, you can eat some inferior, useless animals. But don't touch the cows. This is Bhagavad-gītā. Kṛṣṇa says go-rakṣya. He never says pig-rakṣya. You can eat pig. You can eat the goats, the lambs. There are so many small useless animals. They are eating dogs also. The Chinese people, they eat dogs.

So you can eat dogs, hogs, so many other animals. But don't touch the cows. This is God's instruction. And they are advertising that, "The Hindus, they are so fool, they are worshiping an animal, a cow." They do not know what is the economic value of this cow. In the beginning of your life you want milk immediately in the morning. And you are killing the mother. You are civilized? Do you think? You take milk up to the point of death. In South Africa, before killing the cows, they drag out milk and then send it. Milk is important, but because they are uncivilized, they do this. You take milk. Instead of killing, you prepare so many nice things from milk which is good for brain, good for intelligence. But they do not know because uncivilized. Foolish fourth-class men. So we are trying to bring them to become first-class men, and they are accusing of brainwash. "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." We are teaching that "These boys, they are becoming first class." Anyone will worship them. How nice they look, how behavior, how their character. We are creating this, and they are accusing, "Oh, they are kidnapping our children." (aside to guest:) Why you are going? Eh? Why you are going?

Indian man (2): . . . ap baat kijiye. (. . . please continue.)

Prabhupāda: Ācchā. So this is our position. Now you are philosophers. You try to understand the whole philosophy and combine together. People have become all fourth-class, tenth-class, uncivilized men. They should be given the idea of God consciousness. I don't say only in the Western country. Everywhere this is the problem, all fourth-class men. So there is possibility to bring the fourth-class men to the first class. That is educational. It can be done. There is no difficulty. So this is the education, how to make fourth-class men or fifth-class men to come to the first-class standard. (aside) What is that? Which verse I wanted?

Jagadīśa:

idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā

sviṣṭasya sūktasya ca buddhi-dattayoḥ

avicyuto 'rthaḥ kavibhir nirūpito

yad-uttamaśloka-guṇānuvarṇanam

(SB 1.5.22)

Translation: "Learned circles have positively concluded that the infallible purpose of the advancement of knowledge, namely austerities, study of the Vedas, sacrifice, chanting of hymns and charity, culminates in the transcendental descriptions of the Lord, who is defined in choice poetry."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Now, suppose you are a well-known philosopher. If you say: "There is God," so many people will hear, "Oh, here is a big philosopher." Therefore your studies of philosophy will be perfect when you establish, "Yes, there is God." Otherwise it is useless, because you will waste your time and you'll waste . . . already they are godless.

Dr. Kneupper: How does one establish clearly?

Prabhupāda: That requires thinking. That requires knowledge. Therefore we are giving so many books. You can study. You can present the case nicely with argument, philosophy. That is your duty. Avicyutaḥ arthaḥ kavibhir nirūpito yad-uttamaśloka-guṇānu . . . when you are able to describe God very philosophically, scientifically, mathematically, then your education is perfect.

Dr. Kneupper: Are there any books particularly that focus on all this?

Prabhupāda: Every . . . there are so many books. There are so many books. The primary book is the Bhagavad-gītā, yes, as it is, if you take it as it is. If you amend it to your whimsical way, then it is gone. Therefore we are presenting. This word we have added, Bhagavad-gītā "As It Is." Don't try to amend it. Then it will be foolishness.

Dr. Kneupper: If I wanted to know Bhagavad-gītā as it is, you'd have to read Sanskrit, wouldn't you?

Prabhupāda: No, we have this English translation. This is in French translation, in German translation.

Dr. Kneupper: How does one decide . . . there are so many translations. How does one decide . . .

Prabhupāda: That depends on your philosophy. You are reading so many books. How do you select, "This is nice"? That depends on your philosophy. But if you accept it that it is spoken by God, then there is no argument. But why should you accept it, spoken by God? You read it, whether how much logical, how much full of knowledge. Then you can say. The same thing—just like Kṛṣṇa says, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13): "Within this body there is the soul, and because the soul is there, therefore body is changing." So anyone can . . . any layman can understand. Things are there like that. So there is no difficulty. If we take, "Oh, this description, the transmigration of the soul—Hindu idea." Why Hindu idea? It is science.

Dr. Kneupper: One usually thinks of it as Hindu because . . .

Prabhupāda: As soon as we consider it "Hindu," then it becomes sectarian. Then you will say: "I have got my Christian idea. Why shall I take your Hindu idea?"

Dr. Kneupper: What is your view towards Christianity?

Prabhupāda: Christianity is to some extent, but you have got different edition of Christianity. So far I know, as soon as they say: "Christian," immediately the question, "To which Christian party you belong?" What is that?

Hari-śauri: Christians, yeah. Protestants, Methodists, Catholics . . .

Prabhupāda: So which is correct Christianity we do not know. But we have no such thing. There is no party. Bhagavad-gītā, there cannot be any party. If anyone makes any party, he is immediately cancelled. But at least we believe in the Ten Commandments. Now, Lord Jesus Christ said: "Thou shall not kill." But why all the Christians are simply busy in killing? That is my first question.

Dr. Kneupper: Not all of them believe in . . .

Prabhupāda: Ninety-nine percent, they are maintaining all big, big slaughterhouse, all Christians. And Lord Jesus Christ ordered, "Thou shall not kill," but they are killing. What kind of Christian he is? Disobedience to the order of Christ, and still he is Christian? These things are going on. Then again party, this "ism," that "ism," that "ism." First of all, all of them are disobeying the Ten Commandments, and then there are parties. So which one you'll accept?

Dr. Kneupper: There's no such diversity of interpretation of the Bhagavad-gītā?

Prabhupāda: No, no, apart from Bhagavad-gītā, I am talking of Christianity. How you can disobey the orders of Christ and you become Christian at the same time?

Dr. Kneupper: There's always people falling short of what their . . .

Prabhupāda: That's it. That means they are all useless. If you are Christian, how you can defy the order of Christ? You will disobey the orders of Christ; still you are Christian? Just like in India they are all denying the Vedic culture, and still they are Hindu? All these rascals. So therefore I say whole world is full of rascals. If the Christians accept this word, that Lord says: "Thou shall not kill," why shall we kill? Welcome. Never mind whether Christian or Hindu. Welcome. Similarly, in India, if they accept Bhagavad-gītā, welcome. But everyone is rascal, mūḍha. Nobody cares for God, nobody cares for God's messenger. All rascals. This is the position. They are creating God. They are creating religion. They are creating sect. This is going on.

Dr. Kneupper: (indistinct) . . . even though they are sincere . . .

Prabhupāda: That should be educated from the very beginning. Therefore we are opening gurukulas, sane brain. Otherwise their brain is spoiled by so-called bad education. I inquired from your State Secretary that, "You write on the bills, 'In God We Trust,' so why not spread this God consciousness, 'What is God?' You blindly say, 'God in Trust,' but what is God? Do you know? So why not spread this science?" I received no reply up to date. They might have said: "Here is a crazy fellow. Nobody has inquired like this." That's all. They do not like to enter into the controversy. Actually they do not believe in God, but write, "In God We Trust," is it not?

Dr. Kneupper: That's what they write.

Prabhupāda: Yes, but they don't believe in God. Hypocrisy. Because if they trust in God, then they could not cheat that, "I am paying you one thousand dollars by some papers." This is cheating. And promise, "In God I Trust." Is that money? So this cheating is begun from the government. Now how the people will be honest? Everywhere, in all government, they are giving you some papers and you accept it as money. This is not brainwash. Just see. They are educating people that, "I promise to pay. This is money," but actually he's receiving some papers. This is not brainwash. And we are talking of God, that is brainwash.

Dr. Kneupper: Perhaps when people . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no, this is the present situation. When people will be honest, that is future.

Dr. Kneupper: But I mean now, when they make these confrontations and give you these difficulties, perhaps it will give your people a chance to teach them and clarify . . .

Prabhupāda: Well, that we are doing, but this is the opposition. That our boys are trained up. They are trying to meet the opposition. But my point is that such a nice thing we are giving. Why they should oppose? That means uncivilized. Why good thing should be opposed? They say: "In God We Trust," and we are speaking of God only. We have no other business, and they are opposing. And they write, "In God We Trust." Hypocrisy. "If we believe in God, we trust in God, all right, they are talking of God. Let us hear." That is sense. That Patrick? Patrick? He kidnaps our devotees.

Hari-śauri: Ted Patrick.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And by force trying to give him meat but now, if educated men of your country, they come forward, understand this philosophy, then combined effort . . . my philosophy is that American and Indian: American money and Indian culture, combine together; the whole world will be changed. That is my philosophy. It is coming to some extent. These American boys, they help me. (aside) What is that newspaper cutting? Appeared in Bombay? Bring it. They have published this philosophy, my philosophy. Actually, if I not have gone to America, at least I could not publish . . . (indistinct) . . . when I was in India, with great difficulty I published three books only. And because I went to America, I was able to publish eighty-four books. And it is going on still. These boys help me. Just like they are publishing now, still. Hmm. Read it.

Jagadīśa: "The West is like a blind man, and the East is like a cripple . . ."

Prabhupāda: No, read the heading and everything.

Jagadīśa: (indistinct) . . . "Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Rāma, written by the Hare Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) . . . the West is like a blind man, and the East is like a cripple, says A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, founder-ācārya of the International Society for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The two should cooperate. The blind man should carry his lame companion, and the lame man should give guidance to his blind friend. In this way both will benefit. Similarly, the wealthier Western countries should assist the materially exploited East, and the East, particularly India, should help the spiritually blind West to understand scientifically the actual higher purpose of human life. To offer India's transcendental science of Kṛṣṇa consciousness to the West, Prabhupāda sailed from Bombay to New York City in 1965. After a year of great personal struggle, he established the first center of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness. In the next few years he attracted hundreds of sincere disciples and opened centers in dozens of American and European cities. He also established gurukula schools and farming communities based on the ancient Indian pattern.

"In 1970 Prabhupāda returned to India and with the assistance of many Indian gentlemen and some of his disciples, he established ISKCON centers in Bombay, Delhi, Calcutta, Madras and the rural holy spots of Vṛndāvana, Lord Kṛṣṇa's place, and Māyāpur, West Bengal, the birthplace of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Soon he attracted many Indian disciples as well, who opened centers in Hyderabad, Ahmedabad, Chandigarh and in several rural areas. Today ISKCON has about one hundred āśramas, gurukula schools, temples and farming communities around the world. But according to Prabhupāda, his books are his most important contribution. In the last ten years he has published over eighty volumes in sixteen languages. Scholars in India and abroad have praised Prabhupāda's books as classics, scholarly and authoritative. Literally crores of his literatures are sold annually, and this figure is almost doubling every year.

"How is it possible to sell so many books about Kṛṣṇa? Girirāja, president of the ISKCON center in Bombay, answers, 'People all over the world are looking to India for transcendental knowledge. They know that India's ancient Sanskrit literature speaks of lasting happiness beyond the frustration of material life. They are eager to buy our books because they know that we are presenting the genuine Vedic culture. In fact, many Westerners come here to discover the real India for themselves . . . (indistinct) . . . life experience. For this reason we are building a model Vedic community at our Juhu center in Bombay, providing all the modern amenities for scholars, students and sophisticated inquirers from abroad as well as from India who can study the original Indian culture and practice. The center will include a Vedic library, theater, prasādam restaurant, gurukula school, an international guesthouse, as well as a temple and āśrama.'

"ISKCON is also building a model Vedic community in Māyāpur near Calcutta based on cottage industry and agriculture. The important principle is that everyone must be gainfully employed. In ISKCON's Māyāpur project hundreds of persons operate spinning wheels and more than a dozen handlooms, dye the cloth, and . . . (indistinct) . . . printed in popular design, process rice and dāl by hand, crush sugarcane for sugar products, and manufacture by hand wooden shoes and other items of daily use. On twenty-five acres of agricultural land in Māyāpur, ISKCON is developing and demonstrating scientific farming procedures such as crop rotation, organic fertilization, and using improved strains. ISKCON is also cross-breeding cattle from Canada and Australia with Indian cows to increase milk production. Thus the community provides its own cloth, food, and other daily needs, acts as an agricultural development and demonstration center, and additionally feeds thousands of people twice every week. Within the next ten years, according to ISKCON plans, the Māyāpur project will extend into a complete Vedic city with fifty thousand . . ."

Prabhupāda: We have applied for 350 acres of land from the government. The process is going on. If we get, then we shall spend crores of rupees for . . . the description is . . .

Jagadīśa: "Within the next ten years, according to ISKCON plans, the Māyāpur project will extend to a complete Vedic city with fifty thousand inhabitants, its own university, airport and stadium. It will also claim the world's largest planetarium, with 410 foot high Temple of Understanding . . ." (break) . . . Vedic civilization.

Dr. Kneupper: It sounds like a beautiful project. That is near Bombay, now?

Prabhupāda: No, that is near Calcutta.

Dr. Kneupper: Calcutta.

Prabhupāda: About sixty miles.

Dr. Kneupper: Have they progressed much now?

Prabhupāda: Yes, the enquiry is finished. Now government is considering to give that land. If they give, we shall like that. There were many others, land offers, in Hyderabad, but I wanted to start this institution in the . . . on the birth-site of Lord Caitanya. Otherwise we have got better land. We have asked government for 350 acres, but we have already got, in Hyderabad, 600 acres. Here also we can get immediately 500, 600 acres, like that. We have already got another plot of land, 100 acres, in Ahmedabad. So there are so many lands available, but I wanted to start this project in Māyāpur, the birthsite of Lord Caitanya. Therefore we are waiting. If they say no, then we shall attempt it somewhere else.

Indian man: In Calcutta also there is a project?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Indian man: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: That is not very important.

Dr. Kneupper: Well, it's been most interesting to meet you and hear you. I . . . unfortunately I have to go to Agra this evening. So I really want to thank you, and I will remember this, and I will read your writings and think very deeply on what you . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Kneupper: . . . said to me and . . . (indistinct) . . . this . . .

Prabhupāda: Therefore I recited also. It is the real utilization of every education.

Dr. Kneupper: Right. But the Bhagavad-gītā is very wonder . . . it's . . . since I first read it, it's been one of my favorite . . .

Prabhupāda: You are reading?

Dr. Kneupper: Yes, I . . . I try to read it frequently, because it gives me some real spiritual . . .

Prabhupāda: And if you want to know further, you can write to me.

Dr. Kneupper: Good. I'll take back your blessing to Slippery Rock when I go back there.

Prabhupāda: Yes, and there, so many old friends, you can offer them.

Dr. Kneupper: Okay. Dr. Morrison and Dr. Sharma, so many other people . . .

Prabhupāda: There is Sydney Weld there, when I went.

Dr. Kneupper: Very good. Is the friend which you were . . . you were staying with somebody in Butler?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Kneupper: Is he still there?

Prabhupāda: No. That friend was one of my friends' son.

Dr. Kneupper: I see.

Prabhupāda: The boy went there for learning engineering. But she (he) settled there marrying one English girl. I became his guest for about a month. Then I came to New York.

Dr. Kneupper: I see. Was the place Slippery Rock? Was that the first college . . .?

Prabhupāda: No, the place was Butler.

Dr. Kneupper: You were in Butler, right?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Kneupper: And then you spoke at a college.

Prabhupāda: In the college, yes.

Dr. Kneupper: Every time I go to that hall I remember the story that you spoke there.

Prabhupāda: Oh, they still say.

Dr. Kneupper: Yes. You must have left some kind of blessing upon it. It has a nice atmosphere.

Prabhupāda: That was in 1965.

Dr. Kneupper: Sixty-five. That far back.

Prabhupāda: About eleven years ago.

Dr. Kneupper: Such a short time, and so many changes.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Kneupper: The growth, the temple here, beautiful. On my next trip to India . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, you can come and stay here or in Bombay. We have got . . .

Dr. Kneupper: But I want to see the one . . . the city when it's constructed. That would be really . . .

Prabhupāda: Oh, that is . . . yes.

Dr. Kneupper: I hope that is . . . in Calcutta will be a success story.

Prabhupāda: You have got the contemplative man with you. . . . (indistinct)

Indian man: Yes, sir.

Dr. Kneupper: This will be over 300 acres if it's . . .

Prabhupāda: Three hundred fifty acres.

Dr. Kneupper: It's a large city. Fifty thousand, did you say, people? How many people were there?

Jagadīśa: Fifty thousand.

Dr. Kneupper: Fifty thousand.

Prabhupāda: Expecting fifty thousand. The real peace movement.

Jagadīśa: That's what we're trying to bring together here in this city. (indistinct conversation going on as plans are shown) and then all around, the different communities, vaiśya community, the merchant community, trade community . . . (indistinct) . . . their own communities.

Dr. Kneupper: I see.

Hari-śauri: According to the Vedic system (indistinct speaking as devotees explain the plans)

Prabhupāda: You have got?

Jagadīśa: That's the purport to that verse? Read?

Prabhupāda: Hmm? Yes.

Jagadīśa: "Human intellect is developed for advancement of learning in art, science, philosophy, physics, chemistry, psychology, economics, politics, etc. By culture of such knowledge the human society can attain perfection of life. This perfection of life culminates in the realization of the Supreme Being, Viṣṇu. The śruti therefore directs that those who are actually advanced in learning should aspire to the service of Lord Viṣṇu. Unfortunately, persons who are enamored by the external beauty of viṣṇu-māyā do not understand that culmination of perfection or self realization depends on Viṣṇu. Viṣṇu-māyā means sense enjoyment, which is transient and miserable. Those who are entrapped by viṣṇu-māyā utilize advancement of knowledge for sense enjoyment.

"Śrī Nārada Muni has explained that all paraphernalia of the cosmic universe is but an emanation of the Lord or His different energies because the Lord has set in motion by His inconceivable energy actions and reactions of the created manifestation. They have come to be out of His energy, they rest on His energy, and after annihilation they merge into Him. Nothing is therefore different from Him, but at the same time the Lord is always different from them. When advancement of knowledge is applied in the service of the Lord the whole process becomes absolute."

"The Personality of Godhead, His transcendental name, fame, glory, etc., are all nondifferent from Him. Therefore all the sages and devotees of the Lord have recommended that the subject matter of art, science, philosophy, physics, chemistry, psychology and all the branches of knowledge should be wholly and solely applied in the service of the Lord. Art, literature, poetry, painting, etc., may be used in glorifying the Lord. The fiction writers, poets, and celebrated littérateurs are generally engaged in writing sensuous subjects, but if they turn towards the service of the Lord, they can describe the transcendental pastimes of the Lord. Vālmīki was a great poet, and similarly Vyāsadeva is a great writer, and both of them have absolutely engaged themselves in delineating the transcendental activities of the Lord, and by doing so they become immortal. Similarly science and philosophy also should be applied in the service of the Lord."

"There is no use presenting dry speculative theories for sense gratification. Philosophy and science should be engaged to establish the glory of the Lord. Advanced people are eager to understand the Absolute Truth through the medium of science, and therefore a great scientist should endeavor to prove the existence of the Lord on a scientific basis. Similarly, philosophical speculations should be utilized to establish the Supreme Truth as sentient and all-powerful. Similarly, all other branches of knowledge should always be engaged in the service of the Lord. In the Bhagavad-gītā also the same is affirmed. All knowledge not engaged in the service of the Lord is but nescience. Real utilization of advanced knowledge is to establish the glories of the Lord. And that is the real import. Scientific knowledge engaged in the service of the Lord and all similar activities are all factual hari-kīrtana, for the glorification of the Lord."

Dr. Kneupper: Well I will remember this. And I will read, look into your writings much more closely . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Kneupper: . . . when I get back. Could I ask you if you might sign . . . put your name in . . . autograph?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Dr. Kneupper: Could you do that, please?

Prabhupāda: So you can give him that book.

Devotee: Scientific Basis?

Prabhupāda: Would you like to read this book?

Dr. Kneupper: Yes, I will read that, yes.

Prabhupāda: So I'll sign in that book.

Dr. Kneupper: Okay, okay, fine. Yes, that would be good. Very good. Thank you very much.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Dr. Kneupper: Thank you very much for your time . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, I thank you for your coming. We want educated boys like you.

Dr. Kneupper: Good. Well, I will communicate what you said.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Dr. Kneupper: I think . . . as soon as I . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . all human society. It is not a sectarian movement.

Dr. Kneupper: Well, I'm very glad I had the chance to meet you, to learn . . . because when you meet . . . when you hear things second source . . . secondary source, it's not like . . .

Prabhupāda: Do you think our presentation is all right?

Dr. Kneupper: Yes. It's very fine. And I'll try to help the people . . . my mother is from Texas. My family lives there.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Dr. Kneupper: And I'll try to help them understand better what the situation is. So . . .

Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. (break) (end)