750302 - Lecture - Atlanta

Lectures by Date, 1975

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

 Listen to a 'Nectar Drop' created from this lecture

750302LE-ATLANTA - March 02, 1975 - 80:30 Minutes

Prabhupāda:

namo mahā-vadānyāya

kṛṣṇa-prema-pradāya te

kṛṣṇāya kṛṣṇa-caitanya-

nāmne gaura-tvise namaḥ

(CC Madhya 19.53)

This is a prayer offered by Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī, the first ācārya in the line of Caitanya Mahāprabhu's Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. He was prime minister in the government . . . (indistinct) . . . government, Muhammadan, Chand Ka . . . Hussain Shah, the governor of Bengal. So when Caitanya Mahāprabhu started His movement, he and his brother Sanātana Gosvāmī resigned from the ministership of the government and became disciple of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. So when they first met Caitanya Mahāprabhu, they offered this prayer:

namo mahā-vadānyāya

kṛṣṇa-prema-pradāya te

kṛṣṇāya kṛṣṇa-caitanya-

nāmne gaura-tvise namaḥ

(CC Madhya 19.53)

These ministers were, by caste, brāhmaṇa, but because they accepted the service in Muhammadan government, they were rejected from the brāhmaṇa society. And they also became like Muhammadans. They changed their names to Sākara Mallika and Dabira Khāsa. Practically they became Muhammadan. And in those days many other Muhammadans, they also became this follower of Caitanya cult, especially Haridāsa Ṭhākura. Haridāsa Ṭhākura was born in Muhammadan family. These Rūpa Gosvāmī and Sanātana Gosvāmī, they were born in high-class brāhmaṇa family, but on account of their service in the Muhammadan government they were rejected from the brāhmaṇa society. So that is Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu's special mercy, that this Haridāsa Ṭhākura, who was actually born in Muhammadan family, he was made nāmācārya. We offer our respect, "Nāmācārya Śrīla Haridāsa Ṭhākura." And we offer our respect to Sanātana Gosvāmī, vande rūpa-sanātanau . . . eh?

Devotee: . . . raghu-yugau śrī-jīva-gopālakau.

Prabhupāda: Raghu-yugau śrī-jīva-gopālakau. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu's cult is special cult. And He wanted to preach not only in India but all over the world. We have several times discussed this point, pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi-grāma (CB Antya-khaṇḍa 4.126), this cult, Caitanya Mahāprabhu's cult. And what is that cult? Kṛṣṇa-prema: to love Kṛṣṇa, or God. God . . . in many religions they have got different names of God. And in Vedic scripture there are many demigods and incarnation of God. But Kṛṣṇa is the original name of God. Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam. Ete cāṁśa-kalāḥ puṁsaḥ kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). There is list of incarnations, and in the conclusion the śāstra says, "In this long list there are many names, but the name 'Kṛṣṇa' is particularly to be noted, that He is the original Supreme Personality of Godhead."

"God" means He is not like us. He can expand Himself. Even the yogīs, some of the yogīs—not these ordinary third-class yogīs, but those who have attained yogic perfection—they can expand the body in at least up to eight. The yogīs can do that. There are instances. So if an ordinary yogī can do that, just imagine how much potential there is of the Supreme Lord. Just like in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe arjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61): "My dear Arjuna, the Supreme Lord is situated in everyone's heart, in everyone living being's heart." You just imagine how many living entities are there. They cannot be counted. Jīva-bhago sa vijñeyaḥ sa anantaya kalpate. But there are many million, trillions. Even million, trillions is insufficient. There is no counting. There are so many living entities, and they are all part and parcel of God. Just like the sunshine, the sun globe and the sun-god. The sun-god is within the sun globe, and the inhabitants of the sun globe, they are all very glowing, luminous. On account of their bodily glowing, the whole sun planet is glowing. On account of the sun planet glowing, the sunshine, which is reaching us from 93,000,000's of miles—we feel the heat and the light. This is an ordinary material thing. So just imagine what is the potential of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

So we cannot imagine what is the potential power, energy of the Supreme Person, just like we cannot estimate what is the temperature of the sun globe, sun-god. It is in our front. We have got aeroplanes. We can go there. But before going there we will be finished, the temperature is so high. Everyone knows it. So if the ordinary sun-god or sun globe is so highly temper, how much higher temper is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, His potency, His power. We say God is almighty, all-powerful, but we have no idea what is meant by "all-powerful." We think that all-powerful means "I am so much powerful. He may be ten times powerful than me." Or somebody says "twenty times." "All right, let us compromise. Fifty times." (laughter) This kind of speculation is like the frog's speculation within the well. There is a frog within the well, and one of his friend came to him, "My dear friend, I have seen a vast mass of water, Atlantic Ocean." "What is that Atlantic Ocean?" "It is vast." "How much? Maybe ten times more than this? Or twenty times? Come on." (laughter) "No, no. It is very, very vast." So these rascal speculation of God is like the speculation of the frog about Atlantic Ocean. These mundane philosopher, scientist, they are thinking of God in that way, the Dr. Frog's philosophy. The Dr. Frog's philosophy will not help you to understand what is God.

So Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu's preaching was to distribute love of God. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's . . . because this human life is specially meant for understanding what is God and loving Him. That's all. This is the only business. The cats and dogs or other lower animals, if you preach to them Kṛṣṇa consciousness, it is not possible. They will not understand. But human being . . . just like our this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is being spread all over the world, and you can see here also in your country, in America, in Europe, they are all understanding. That is the special advantage of human life. One Christian priest in Boston, he was astonished by seeing our devotees. He issued one leaflet that "These boys are our boys, and before this movement they did not care to see us or come to the church, and now they are mad after God." This is the certificate of a Christian priest. And actually you can see. These boys . . . I am poor Indian. I came with forty rupees. And I have not bribed them; neither I have got that money. (laughter) But how they are mad after God. It is practical. Now you bribe them and take away—they will not go. They will not go. Many fathers, mothers came to induce them to take home, but they are not going.

So what is the intoxication? This is the mercy of Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu. This intoxication is: they have given up all intoxication; they are now intoxicated with Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa. Yes. One Draft Board officer came to see in our camp: "So what is the facility that these boys have joined Hare Kṛṣṇa movement? Whether it is very easier than the Draft Board?" But when he enquired he saw that these boys and girls are prohibited illicit sex, intoxication, meat-eating and gambling. He thought that it is harder than the Draft Board. Here, the Draft Board, they do not make any condition, but here are so many condition which is very, very difficult to follow. So this is called Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mercy—practical.

So every human being should accept this mercy of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and that is the purport of the verse Rūpa Gosvāmī first offered to Lord Caitanya, that namo mahā-vadānyāya: "You are the most munificent incarnation." Why? Now, "You are distributing kṛṣṇa-prema, love of Godhead. People do not know what is God, and You are distributing love of Godhead." One cannot love anybody unless he knows the other party very well, or very intimate dealings. Then there is question of love. Love, there is no question of love. If I do not know you, you do not know me, when we live ten thousand miles away, there is no question of love. Love means when there is intimacy.

So to understand God is very difficult. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said,

manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu

kaścid yatati siddhaye

yatatām api siddhānāṁ

kaścid vetti māṁ tattvataḥ

(BG 7.3)

He . . . God said, Kṛṣṇa said, that "Out of many millions of person, one is interested to make his life success." This is not success, that "I can eat whatever I like. There is no checking. And I have got very nice car, and I have got very nice apartment. And I have got nice bank balance. So now life is my . . . perfect." This is not perfection, because we are under the grip of the laws of material nature. Material nature is controlling. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ (BG 3.27). How the material nature is controlling? She has got machine, three modes of material nature. So kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu (BG 13.22). They are contacting either of these three modes of material nature and thus being infected. We know that if we infect some disease knowingly or unknowingly—generally we infect unknowingly—later on that disease becomes developed. This is law of nature. Not that you do not know when you infected that particular disease. That is no excuse. You have infected yourself with this kind of disease; you must suffer. This is knowledge. Similarly, there are three kinds of infection, modes of material nature: goodness, passion and ignorance. So ignorance is no excuse. If in the law court you say, "My lord, I did not know that by stealing, one is punished," that, the magistrate or the judge, will not excuse you. The law, even this material law, is so strict, and you can imagine how much strict are stringent laws of the nature.

So this is the material life, that knowingly or unknowingly we are infecting a particular type of modes of material nature, and our next body is being created. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu. Sad-asad. Life, there are different varieties of life, 8,400,000 varieties of forms. So why there are different forms of life, different standard of life? Why? The answer is in the Bhagavad-gītā. Kāraṇam, the reason, is guṇa-saṅgaḥ, his particular infection with a particular quality of material nature. This is going on perpetually. "Perpetually" means we do not know when this process of life began and when it will be ended; therefore it is perpetually. So our this privilege, to possess a human form of life, is great advantage in this sense, that we can study all these things—what is the living entity, how he is being infected and how he is taking different types of bodies, and account of the body, the standard of life, nice or bad, is going on. Therefore Kṛṣṇa, in the very beginning of His teaching of the Bhagavad-gītā, He is trying to impress that "I am not this body, or we are not this body. I am the owner or occupier of the body." This is the first instruction.

So Caitanya Mahāprabhu's movement is not on the bodily platform; it is on the spiritual platform. That He explained when He was talking with Rūpa Gosvāmī, er, Sanātana Gosvāmī, that what is the identity of this living entity. Or he said, "What is my identity? Actually, people address me as very learned man." He was very learned man. He was minister and was a brāhmaṇa. Naturally in those days he knew Sanskrit very well and Urdu, because Muhammadan kingdom, the Urdu language was state language, just like during British period the state language was English. So he was quite conversant with these two languages, Urdu, Parsi, and Sanskrit. So he first of all submitted to Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, "My dear Lord, people address me as panditjī." The brāhmaṇas are generally addressed still in India as panditjī, means learned. Because brāhmaṇa means learned. A brāhmaṇa cannot be mūrkhajī. That is not possible. Brāhmaṇa means brahma jānātīti brāhmaṇaḥ. One who knows the Absolute Truth, he becomes brāhmaṇa; therefore he is addressed as panditjī. So Sanātana Gosvāmī submitted that "These ordinary people address me as very learned man, panditjī. But I know my position. I do not know myself, what I am. This is my position." Grāmya-vyavahāre kaha ei paṇḍita satya kori māni: "These fools calls me as paṇḍita, and I also think that I am paṇḍita, but actually I do not know what I am."

Just see. This is the position. You ask all big, big doctors, scientists, philosophers, and ask him what you are. He will say, "I am Indian," "I am American," "I am this," "I am that," that's all. Bodily. This is going on. And he is fool number one, and he is passing on as the great scientist, great philosopher. One who does not know himself, what is the value of his learning? One must know his own identity. So everyone is identifying with this body—"I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am Christian," "I am Indian," "I am American," "I am German," "I am Englishman"—and fighting is going on. Why fighting is going on? The living entity is part and parcel of God. He is spiritual spark. He is covered by this material body. Just like we are all human beings. Now we are covered by different dresses. That does not mean we are different. We are one as human being, as inhabitants of this earth, but on account of this dress I am thinking you are my enemy, you are thinking I am your enemy. So Bhāgavata conclusion is,

yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke

sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu bhauma ijya-dhīḥ

yat-tīrtha-buddhiḥ salile na karhicij

janeṣu abhijñeṣu sa eva go-kharaḥ

(SB 10.84.13)

The . . . anyone who is identifying himself with this body and the land of his bodily growing there is the country, bhauma ijya-dhīḥ . . . everyone is thinking, "God is not worshipable. In this land I have taken my birth. This land is my worshipable"—nationalism or this "ism" or that "ism." But he never thinks that "How long I shall be allowed to occupy this body and to occupy this land?" This is called ignorance.

So Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu's movement is, the starting point is, the spirit soul. And automatically, unless . . . in the Bhagavad-gītā, Lord said the sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66): "You give up the so-called man-made duties, or occupation, or dharma. You just surrender unto Me." So actually this is dharma, or religion: to surrender to God. God is one. He is neither Hindu nor Muslim nor Christian. God is one. If there is another God, then there is competition. God cannot be two. God is one. Eko brahma dvitīya nasti. That is the Vedic injunction. So God is one. So either you become Hindu or Muslim, the God is one. This is to be understood. So the science of God, that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You try to understand scientifically what is meant by God, what is meant by religion. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's preaching. Jīvera svarūpa haya nitya kṛṣṇa dāsa (CC Madhya 20.108-109). He begins His teaching on this principle, that every living being is eternal servant of God. That's all. And this is religion. Religion does not mean stamping in different way. Religion means to know God, the great, and we are subordinate, maintained by God. This is religion. If anyone knows these two things only—God is great, and we are subordinate; our duty is to abide by the orders of God—that is religion.

So unity can be established on the spiritual platform. Unity cannot be established on this bodily platform. Just like the United Nation is trying to unite the nation, but every year a flag is increasing. We have seen in New York. So this kind of unity will never be successful. The United Nation established at least . . . how many years ago?

Devotee: Thirty.

Prabhupāda: So what they have done? They could not do that. Neither can do anything. Before that, there was another establishment, League of Nation. They are trying to unite the nations not to fight with one another. But because they are contemplating all these nonsense on the bodily platform, it is not possible. It is not possible. If you want to be united, then you have to be united on the spiritual platform. And what is that spiritual platform? The spiritual platform is to understand thoroughly that "God is great and we are subordinate. God is maintaining us. All the property anywhere, that belongs to God, and we can use the father's property as much as I require, not to take more and stock it. No." The birds, beasts, they are very free. If you put here one bag of rice or any foodstuff, the birds will come, but they will eat only a few grains and go away. And if you put here, say, one thousand bags of wheat, and you declare that anyone can take it, there will be fight. There will be fight. Everyone will try to take more. Everyone will try to take more. This is human civilization. The birds will peacefully take few grains and go away. But if you invite the human being, their culture is so—"Oh, I have got so much wheat. Let me take more and stock it for tomorrow or day after tomorrow or for my son, for my grandson, for my great-grandson." (laughter) This foolishness is going on on account of lack of spiritual consciousness.

Spiritual consciousness is, it is stated in the Vedas, īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1): "Everything belongs to God." The food belongs to God, the mine belongs to God, the ocean belongs to God, the land belongs to God, the air belongs to God, and whatever we find here, this is a combination of these five elements: earth, air, water, fire. That's all. So everything belongs to God. We also belong to God. So we should feel obliged to God that He has given so much for our maintenance. (break) . . . fruits, flowers, vegetables, land, ocean, mine, jewels. So we can use it as much as we require. We cannot collect it and keep it in stock for my future son, grandson, this son, that son. No. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

It is actually perfect Communism. The Communists are thinking in terms of the human being, and that also within the state, but a Kṛṣṇa conscious person, he is thinking in terms of all living beings. Vidyā-vinaya-sampanne brāhmaṇe gavi hastini, śuni caiva śva-pāke ca (BG 5.18). In the Bhāgavata it is stated that a householder, before taking his lunch, he should invite on the street, "Sir, if anyone is still hungry, please come at my place. There is still food. You can take it." And he should see that in the household even the lizard, he is not hungry; even there is a snake, he is not hungry. This is Vedic principle, God consciousness, that "Somehow or other, one animal has become lizard. Maybe he is hungry. So at my house he is. Why he should remain hungry? Give him some food." Nobody likes snake, but in the śāstra it is said, "Even there is a snake, you should see that he is not hungry, he is given some food."

So of course, it is very high idea, but it is the complete ideal of so-called Communism, real. It is not that nation . . . American nation, they are concerned with the human being only. Or any nation. Not American; everywhere. And nation means . . . the definition of "native" means one who has taken birth in that land. That is called native. So the cow is also native. So why this law, that for the benefit of the human being, the cow should be slaughtered? And he is giving milk; he is working for you. What is this philosophy? In Christian religion it is clearly stated, "Thou shall not kill." And most of the slaughterhouses are in the Christian countries. Why? This is all misunderstanding of spiritual life. Therefore . . . just like the discussion went on with the Kazi and Caitanya Mahāprabhu. There was no philosophy. He first asked him that "Cow is your mother. Bull is your father. Why you are killing father and mother? What is your religion? Is that very good philosophy, that you shall kill your father and mother and eat them?" This was the first question. According to Vedic civilization, cow is to be given all protection. The Hindus or followers of the Vedic religion, why they are interested to give protection to the cows, not to the . . . not so much to the other animals? And Lord Christ is more liberal. He said, "Thou shall not kill." He does not name any animal's name. Every animal. Every animal should be given protection. That is also the Vedic ideas. Why these poor animals should be killed? By killing, killing, killing, you become sinful and entangled. Therefore now it has begun—one is killing his own child.

So this is going on. So in this way we cannot be happy. We shall become more and more entangled in sinful resultant action, and we have to take different types of body. So perpetually it will go on. Therefore this movement, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, is to awaken every man to God consciousness and just to stop his activities in sinful life, so that he will be purified and he will understand God. Without being purified, nobody can understand what is God. That is not possible.

yeṣām anta-gatāṁ tu pāpaṁ

janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām

te dvandva-moha-nirmuktā

bhajante māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ

(BG 7.28)

And Kṛṣṇa said, God says, "One who is completely freed from sinful life, he can take to devotional service." So therefore we have prescribed four principles, regulative principles: No illicit sex . . . we don't say "No sex." No illicit sex. No meat-eating. There are so many things, nice things, especially in your country, America, so many nice fruits, so many nice grains, milk. Why should you kill? We are not. We have got hundreds of centers. We are strictly following. And you have taken our prasādam feast. How delicious they are. So why they should kill?

The argument is sometimes offered: "The vegetable has got life." Yes, we admit also. But our process is to take the prasādam. Prasādam means we offer foodstuff to Kṛṣṇa, and after eating, whatever He left, we take that. This is our principle. We don't take directly. What is the meaning of this temple? We don't use anything directly unless it is offered to Kṛṣṇa. So the vegetable has got life, but Kṛṣṇa says, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati, tad aham aśnāmi (BG 9.26). We have invited Kṛṣṇa, Caitanya Mahāprabhu, as our guest, and He has consented to come here. So we must offer foodstuff what He wants, not that according to my whims. That is not etiquette. If some respectable guest comes to your house, you ask him, "What shall you eat, sir? What kind of food I can give you?" So whatever he orders, you have to supply. That is real receiving the guest. So Kṛṣṇa says that "Give Me food amongst these items—patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati. That also with bhakti, not neglectfully. With great devotion, if somebody offers Me these things, then I can take." So Kṛṣṇa takes these, these patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ, grains, food grains, and milk and vegetables and fruits. So we prepare hundreds of items with these things. You can do that. And they are all delicious and full of vitamins. So why one should kill unnecessarily the poor animals and become vicious and sinful?

So this is Kṛṣṇa Caitanya Mahāprabhu's preaching, that you live peacefully, be gentleman, realize God, make your life happy in this world and the next world. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mercy. And He wanted to spread this cult in every town, every city, every village. So this group, Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, is just trying to serve Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu. And you also see how much beneficial it is. Caitanyera dayāra kathara karaha vicāra. You don't be blind, but try to consider it a little liberally without any . . . what is called? Sophistry? Without any bias, prejudice. Don't be carried by prejudice. Try to understand the philosophy of Caitanya Mahāprabhu and be happy.

Thank you very much.

Devotees: Jaya Prabhupāda! (offer obeisances)

(break)

Devotee: In the Bible they say that the animals don't have soul; therefore it's not the same as killing.

Prabhupāda: I do not know whether it is said. (break) . . . expert in calling Bible, but where it is said, he does not know. He is so expert in Bible. (laughter) How do you know? Now, apart from Bible or any scripture, how do you find that the animal has no soul? How do you consider it? What is the symptom of having soul? That is very easy, but you do not know. When the soul is gone from the body, it does not move. And when the soul is there, it moves. This is the understanding of soul. So do you think the animal does not move? The animal has no blood? The animal has no bone? How do you say that animal has no soul? This is foolishness. The soul is there. Even one small ant, there is soul. Otherwise how it is moving? So long the soul is there, the dull material body is moving. And as soon as the soul is gone, you will cry, "My father has gone away." Why your father gone? It is lying there. Why do you say, "My father has gone away"? This is ignorance. We do not know what is soul. We see the body. So long I have seen the body of my father. Now the soul has gone. I am crying, "My father has gone away." But did you see your father? "Yes, that body." The body is there. Why you are crying?

So it is very commonsense affair to understand where there is soul. A big stone, a big mountain, it cannot move although it is so big. And a small ant is moving. Why? There is soul. So how can you say the animals have no soul? This is ignorance. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). The soul being within the body means it is changing the body from babyhood to childhood, childhood to boyhood, boyhood to youthhood, like that. And if the child is born dead—no more change of body. That is the proof that there is soul. Soul means the living force which is moving the body. That is soul. How you can say the animal has no soul? Everyone has soul. Even the grass has soul, because it is growing, changing body. (break) . . . simple thing. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). Because all dirty things are within our heart, on account of dirty things we are thinking that "I have got soul, and the animal has no soul." This is due to dirtiness of the heart. So if you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, the heart will be cleansed. Just like a mirror with a dust, you cannot see; but if this dust is cleansed, then you can see your face very nicely. Similarly, because on account of material contamination our heart is unclean, we cannot see things as they are. But the chanting process will cleanse your heart, and then you will see everything in order. Then you will not say the animal has no soul.

Devotee: Prabhupāda, before this movement came here we were so caught up in sinful activities. How is it that we were so fortunate to be benedicted with this great Hare Kṛṣṇa movement?

Prabhupāda: It is Kṛṣṇa's mercy. Caitanya Mahāprabhu wanted to give you. Now He has come here. You take advantage of it. Caitanya Mahāprabhu is kind to everyone. He has no discrimination that this cult should be spread only in India or amongst the Hindus or amongst the brāhmaṇas. No. He wanted to spread this movement to all living being, never mind. Pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. So now He has come. If you want, accept Caitanya Mahāprabhu's order, "Simply chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." That is sufficient. But if you want to know more, further, through philosophy, through science, we have got already thirty or fifty books. Read them. Everything is there. Either you accept directly, or if you want to accept through science, through philosophy, through knowledge, there are books. Both ways, Caitanya Mahāprabhu is ready to help you. Now you take advantage of it. And we are glad that you are taking advantage. Now some of you, they have already joined. And in the educational institution, universities, they are also very much appreciative of our literature. So gradually it will be appreciated. But the sooner you take advantage of it is better. Hmm.

Guest: Śrīla Guru, I would like the name of the tenth avatāra of Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He wants the name of the tenth avatāra of Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: I think Kalki. Tenth avatāra is Kalki. He will appear in the district of Śambhalapur. His father's name will be Viṣṇu-yośi, and He will be dressed like a prince and cut all the heads of the demons.

Devotees: Jaya! Haribol! (laughter)

Prabhupāda: Because gradually we are so advancing that we shall remain only animals. So there is no need of preaching. Cut the head. Finish them.

Guest (2): What does the name Jehovah mean?

Prabhupāda: That you say. You say. I do not know. What is the meaning of Jehovah? I do not know. Yes? Who will say what is the meaning of? You do not know?

Guest (2): I think it's a name for God.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So why . . .? What is the . . . give the word meaning, Jehovah. Just like Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa's the word meaning: all-attractive. So God must be all-attractive; otherwise how He can be God? If God is attractive for me only and not to others, then he is not God. God should be attractive . . . just like God's knowledge. Kṛṣṇa is giving this Bhagavad-gītā. It is attractive all over the world, among the scholars, among the religionists, public. Not that simply my Bhagavad-gītā is being read. There are many other editions of Bhagavad-gītā. It is widely read, because the knowledge is so perfect. So knowledge is an attraction. Riches, wealth, that is attraction. If a man is very rich, just like in your country Ford, Rockefeller, they are attractive. A man, if he is beautiful, if he is strong, if he is wise, they become attractive. So you will find in Kṛṣṇa all these attractive features. Therefore He is God.

Woman guest: In the Christian Bible it says that God created all of earth.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Woman guest: He created the waters, he created the animals, but He created the human being in His image, which was the same.

Prabhupāda: That's nice. That's nice.

Woman guest: Explain to me then why you say . . .

Prabhupāda: Then the God is person. God created human beings after His own image—that means He has also two hands, two legs, like us.

Woman guest: No.

Prabhupāda: Why not? You say. (laughter) You say, "God has created human being after His image." Therefore His image must be like you. Why do you say no?

Woman guest: Well, then that's controversy to the . . .

Prabhupāda: Why controverse? First of all let us settle this.

Woman guest: Controversy not to your religion, but to the other religions that say that we are . . .

Prabhupāda: Other religion . . . why you are concerned with other religion? Talk of what God says in your Bible.

Woman guest: What it says in my Bible?

Prabhupāda: Yes. You are saying that God created human being after His image. Is it not?

Woman guest: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Then God, His image is like human being.

Woman guest: Not according to way, way back, because . . .

Prabhupāda: That is another thing, but . . . (laughter) God has got His two hands and two legs, one head, like human being; but that hands and legs and head may not be exactly like us. But He has got the image.

Woman guest: I have never seen Him. I do not know.

Prabhupāda: Then why you are speaking? You do not know. Don't talk. (laughter) Then you learn. If you do not know, then you learn who knows. Don't talk.

Woman guest: I'll listen to you.

Prabhupāda: That is the defect of the modern civilization. One does not know, and he wants to teach. (laughter)

Woman guest: I want to teach only to understand.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. To understand the God is . . . we are worshiping the God's image. He has got the two hands, two legs, like us. But His hands and legs are not like our hands and legs. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati, tad aham aśnāmi (BG 9.26). God hand is so expansive, universal, that although He is in His kingdom, in His abode, when you offer something to God, He takes. He can expand His hand in that way. Not only one devotee, but at the simultaneously many millions of devotees are offering Him, and taking, He is taking. That is His hand. And my hand? Only three feet, that's all. So there is God's hand, but that hand is not like my hand. This is understanding. He can expand His hand millions and trillions of miles. That is His hand. That is explained in the Vedic literature: īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ (Bs. 5.1). God is vigraha, is form, exactly like our form. But His form is sat cit ānanda. Sat means eternal, and cit means full of knowledge, and ānanda means bliss. So our body, this hand, this leg, this body, is not sac-cid-ānanda. It is not eternal; it will be finished. But God's body will never be finished. That is the difference. He has got His body, and I have got my body. But this body will be finished at a certain date, but His body will remain eternally. That is the difference between God's body and my body. Sat and cit.

His body or He Himself knows everything, past, present and future, but I do not know what is beyond this wall. Therefore my knowledge is always imperfect, and God's knowledge is perfect. This is sac, cit. And ānanda. You see in our temple is . . . God is in dancing always. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, you will never see there is crying. No. Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa is enjoying. Kṛṣṇa is enjoying in the company of Rādhārāṇī. This is blissfulness. And although we have got our wife, there are so many difficulties to maintain. That's it. He has got His body, but His body is different from our this body. Although apparently He has got two hands, two legs, but they are unlimitedly potential, full of bliss. That's a . . . God can expand. As it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe arjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61): "The Lord is situated in everyone's heart." But we cannot do that. I cannot even know what you are feeling, pains and pleasure. But God, He can know. Otherwise why we offer prayer to God? He knows.

In this way you have to study what is God. Although apparently He has got two hands, two legs, but that hands and legs are not like ours. We have got our hands and legs. That is within this body. Just like your coat has got hand, but that hand is not real hand—the real hand is within the coat; similarly, we have got also hands and legs, but that is within this material body. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yau . . . (BG 2.13). Within this body. We should not be concerned with your coat and shirt. We should be concerned with you. Similarly, we are now materially dressed. We should not be concerned with the dress. We should be concerned what is there within the dress. That is knowledge. That is knowledge.

So it is a science, and the science is very nicely described in all scriptures, especially Bhagavad-gītā. So as a human being, we have got this privilege to understand, to go to the right person to take the meaning. The meaning is very clear, but we create some mismeaning. That is another thing. Just like in the Bible it is said, "Thou shall not kill." It is very clear and simple thing, but we make some interpretation: "This, that, this." Therefore we are presenting ''Bhagavad-gītā as it is. Don't make the meaning perverted. Take it as it is. Then you become perfect. "Thou shall not kill"—if you take this as it is, then you become perfect. But if you add your own meaning and go on killing and still you become a Christian, that is your business.

Devotee (2): If one is fortunate enough to revive his natural position in the spiritual sky, how can he keep from falling down again? Like, if an entity is fortunate enough to revive his natural constitutional position in the spiritual sky, how can he keep from falling . . .

Prabhupāda: How your Nixon is dragged down? How your President Nixon is dragged down? He was in the exalted post, and why he was dragged down?

Devotee (3): They dragged him down.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He was forced to come down. Why?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He broke the rules.

Prabhupāda: Anyone, even in this world or spiritual world, he has got the potency of coming down by misusing his little independence. It is nothing like that, that if you become president, you are secure. If you are not perfect, then you will be dragged down. Or if you think imperfectly . . . the formula is that in the spiritual world everyone is engaged in the service of the Lord. There is no other conception, as in this material world everyone is engaged to serve his senses—he likes something, and he is engaged for that purpose. That service is there, but it is service to himself, his senses. But in the spiritual world there is no such thing as giving service to the senses. Simply giving service to the Lord. That is spiritual world. So as soon as you think that "Why shall I give service to Kṛṣṇa? Why not become independent?" you fall down immediately. So there is potency of thinking like that.

kṛṣṇa bhuliya jīva bhoga vāñchā kare

pāśate māyā tāre jāpaṭiyā dhare

(Prema-vivarta)

As soon as one forgets the service of the Lord and he wants to become himself Lord, immediately māyā will capture. This māyā means this material world.

Woman guest: In the Christian Bible it says that Jesus Christ is the son of God, and you can only get to God through him.

Prabhupāda: That's all right.

Woman guest: No. What is . . .? Do . . .?

Prabhupāda: Yes. We admit that. He is the perfect son, and if you take shelter of the lotus feet of the perfect son, you go to back to home, back to Godhead. That's a fact.

Woman guest: Is that through Christ or . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. As he advises. Just like he says, "Thou shall not kill." But if you kill, at the same time take shelter of Christ, what is the meaning? First of all you try to follow him; then you can go through him. But you don't care for him—what is the meaning of go through him?

Woman guest: Believe in him.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Believe in strongly.

Woman guest: Believe that he is the son of God.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Believe or not believe, he is son. And if you are fortunate, you follow his path and you become perfect. You believe or not believe, God is there. Similarly, you believe or not believe, God's son is there, God's devotee is there, everyone is there. God is not alone. Just like if you say, "Now here the king is coming," "the king is coming" means he is coming with his ministers, his commander-in-chief, his secretaries and so many, hundreds of men, soldiers . . . similarly, when we speak of God, God is not alone. He has got His sons, He has got His friends, He has got His father, He has got His mother, He has got His beloved—everything. That is God. Yes?

Guest (4): Who was Meher Baba?

Prabhupāda: Hmm? I do not know. (laughter) There are so many bogus Babas. I do not know. (laughter) What is the use of knowing Meher Baba? If I know Kṛṣṇa, that is sufficient. That's all. Why shall I go to know this and that? Hmm. That's all right. So is there a question . . .? All right, what is that question?

Devotee (4): Many people say, "No one can become perfect." How can we help them understand that there is . . .?

Prabhupāda: Yes. No one is a perfect. Therefore you should take lessons from the perfect. That's all. Then you become perfect.

Devotee (4): The conception is not believed.

Prabhupāda: Otherwise why there are instructions just like Christ said, "Thou shall not kill"? That means "You are imperfect; therefore you are killing. Take my instruction. Don't do it. You become perfect." That's all. We are all imperfect. We have to take lesson from the perfect. Then we become perfect. Yes?

Nirantara: Prabhupāda, what pleases you the most?

Prabhupāda: If you love Kṛṣṇa.

Devotees: Jaya.

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Devotee (5): Prabhupāda, I would like to know if the Supersoul is, and the spirit soul, are they the same in the heart of . . .

Prabhupāda: Same is quality. But the individual soul is not exactly like the Supersoul. The Supersoul is within you and within me, within everywhere. But I, individual soul, I am only within me; you are within you. That is the difference. I cannot feel your pains and pleasure; neither you can feel my pains and pleasure. Therefore we are individual. But Supersoul, because He is in everyone's heart, He knows what is going on in everyone's body. That is Supersoul. Therefore He is called Supersoul. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata (BG 13.3). Supersoul, He is God. He can expand Himself in millions and millions of places. But I cannot do that; you cannot do that.

Devotee (5): Prabhupāda, if our body should meet death while engaged in your service, will our transmigration be protected in the auspicious . . .?

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He says if our body should meet death while performing devotional service, will we be protected in transmigrating?

Prabhupāda: There are two kinds of bodies: the gross body and the subtle body. The gross body is a material combination of earth, water, air, fire, ether, and the subtle body is combination of mind, intelligence and ego. So this gross body and subtle body, within that, there is the spirit soul. So that is eternal. And this gross body and subtle body is changing according to the change of the situation. So when you remain in your spiritual body, that is eternal. Therefore to keep in spiritual body is to accept devotional service. Then you are beyond this material gross body and subtle body. You remain in your spiritual body. And if you give up this body—at the time of death means giving up this body—then in spiritual body you go to back to home, back to Godhead. So in order to keep yourself in spiritual body you should always be engaged in devotional service, and that is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā:

māṁ ca vyabhicāriṇi-

bhakti-yogena yaḥ sevate

sa guṇān samatītyaitān

brahma-bhūyāya kalpate

(BG 14.26)

Then you become Brahman, or spirit soul. Yes?

Devotee (6): How . . . in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta it states that to understand Kṛṣṇa and to improve our relationship with Him we must understand the spiritual master. What is the best way to understand him?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (explaining) He says that it states in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta that to understand Kṛṣṇa, the best way is to understand the spiritual master. What is the best way to do that?

Prabhupāda: If you want to learn something, so you must learn from a person who knows that something. The spiritual master's business is that he knows Kṛṣṇa well. So you try to understand Kṛṣṇa through him. This is the idea. Yes?

Devotee (7): Śrīla Prabhupāda, the material scientists . . . unfortunately, many people have put their faith in the material scientists today. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . go to moon, what benefit you derive? You will die also. So anywhere you go within this material world, birth, death, old age and disease will follow. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said,

ā-brahma-bhuvanāl lokān

punar āvartinaḥ arjuna

yad gatvā na nivartante

tad dhāma paramam

(BG 8.16)

Instead of going to moon planet, why not engage your energy for going to back to home, back to Godhead, wherefrom you will not come back again? Yes?

Guest (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, in the Sikh Dharma they say to chant the holy names of God, and so far I haven't encountered the name "Kṛṣṇa" in the scriptures. I have encountered "Govinda," "Mukunda," "Rāma" and . . . but the main name that is chanted is Waibu(?). And I was wondering if you could comment on . . . on the Sikh Dharma.

Prabhupāda: It is very good. It is very good. Guru Nanak, he chanted the name, holy name of Rāma, the holy name of Kṛṣṇa, Govinda. So if we follow Guru Nanak, we are fortunate. Anyone who presents a science of God, it doesn't matter whether he is this man or that man; he is our guru. Yes?

Girl guest: Why is it all right to kill any plants? How are they different from animals?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: She is asking, "What is the difference between killing a plant and eating it and killing an animal and eating it?"

Prabhupāda: The same fault. Either you kill animal or plant, the same sin is there. Just like if you kill an uncivilized and if you kill a big man, the punishment is the same—hanging. You cannot say that "I have killed one uncivilized man." No. That you cannot do. Similarly, you cannot kill even plant. But we have to live. Therefore we can kill plant under the order of the Supreme. Just like I have already explained. Kṛṣṇa said, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati (BG 9.26). Patraṁ means plant. So Kṛṣṇa wants it. So for Kṛṣṇa's sake we can do that. Just like Arjuna did. Arjuna did not like to kill his brothers, but Kṛṣṇa said that "This is My desire." "All right, I shall kill." This is kṛṣṇa-bhakti. When Kṛṣṇa says, we can do everything, not for our personal self.

Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, yajña-śiṣṭāśinaḥ santo mucyante sarva-kilbiṣaiḥ (BG 3.13). That another crude example: just like a soldier. When he is fighting by the order of the state, he is getting gold medal and killing. His business is killing. But the same man, when he comes home, if he kills one person, then he is hanged. Why? He could say that "My business is killing. I am soldier. I have killed this man." "No. This is for your account. On the battlefield you killed for the state's account; therefore you were eulogized. You were given reward." Similarly, we can kill only on the order of the Supreme. Otherwise we cannot kill even a plant. Therefore Bhagavad-gītā says, yajña-śiṣṭāśinaḥ santo mucyante sarva-kilbiṣaiḥ. Yajña means for the satisfaction of the Supreme Lord, whatever you do, you are not implicated with sinful activities. And bhuñjate te tv aghaṁ pāpā ye pacanty ātma-kāraṇāt (BG 3.13), and a person who is doing on his own capacity, he is simply acquiring sinful resultant action.

So the conclusion is: even a plant you cannot kill, what to speak of bigger animals. If one thinks that "I am killing only plants; therefore I am very pious, vegetarian," no. There is no question of vegetarian, nonvegetarian. They are equally sinful. Only those who are taking prasādam, they are free from sinful activities. Yajña-śiṣṭāśinaḥ santo mucyante sarva-kilbiṣaiḥ. All right, thank you . . . again? More questions? (laughter) All right, one more question.

Devotee (8): Śrīla Prabhupāda, if we're performing devotional service and an insect is in the way, like if you're painting the walls and you find this ant and you must paint this wall to please the spiritual master, what is the attitude?

Prabhupāda: I have already said. You cannot kill even an ant without permission. So if you want to kill, you should take permission of higher authorities.

Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. (break) (end)