770512 - Conversation - Hrishikesh

Conversations by Date, 1977

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

Listen to a 'Nectar Drop' created from this Conversation

770512ED-HRISHIKESH - May 12, 1977 - 46:35 Minutes

Prabhupāda: Come here. Sit down. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Aiiye, idhar aiiye, nahi idhar jagah hai. (Come, come here. No there is a place here.)

Devotee (1): We kindly request all of you to please move in a little more down.

Indian man: Vrindavan me aate rahe humlog. (We were coming to Vrindavan.)

Prabhupāda: Ācchā. Ah, Vṛndāvana. So we are publishing these books, altogether about eighty-four books, to prove that kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam. This is our . . . there is God, and the Supreme Being, Supreme Lord, is Kṛṣṇa. Ete cāṁśa-kalāḥ puṁsaḥ kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). This verdict of Vyāsadeva we are preaching. (to Pradyumna)You can speak something about Kṛṣṇa? Hmm?

Pradyumna: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Stand up.

Pradyumna: Stand up?

Prabhupāda: Yes. They'll hear.

Pradyumna:

nama oṁ viṣṇu-pādāya

kṛṣṇa-preṣṭhāya bhū-tale

śrīmate bhaktivedānta-

svāmin iti nāmine

namas te sārasvate devum

gaura-vāṇī-pracāriṇe

nirviśeṣa-śūnyavādi-

pāścātya-deśa-tāriṇe

(break) . . . yad indriya-prītaya āpṛṇoti. For one who is . . .

Prabhupāda: Pramattaḥ.

Pradyumna: One who is pramattaḥ . . . one who is . . . pramattaḥ means mad or illu . . .

Prabhupāda: More than. Prakṛṣṭa-rūpeṇa mattaḥ. Mattaḥ means mad, drunkard; and pramattaḥ means more than mad. So generally people, they have become mad after sense enjoyment. Everyone is busy for sense enjoyment. This is material life. And when they are fed up, no more available, so they become tyāgī—frustration, that "Grapes are sour." The jackal jumped over to get the grapes, but when he could not obtain it, then he rejects, "Ah, what is the use of the grapes? It is sour." So karmīs, they are pramattaḥ, mad after enjoying; and jñānīs, being fed up, they say, brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā: "The world is useless." So this is going on. The karmīs, they want to enjoy this material world, and the jñānīs, they are little advanced. They are . . . they are fed up, rather. They want to enjoy by becoming one with the Supreme. So there is want. The karmīs want to enjoy this world, and the jñānīs want also. That is demand, mukti. Mukti means to become one with the Supreme Brahman. And the yogīs, they want siddhi, aṣṭa-siddhi—aṇimā, laghimā, prāpti, īśitā . . . they also want.

Therefore our Vaiṣṇava poet, Kavirāja Gosvāmī, he says, bhukti-mukti-siddhi-kāmī sakali aśānta: "Those who are after something—either enjoyment of this material world or enjoyment of spiritually becoming one or to have some siddhis—they want something, so they cannot be happy." Because there is demand, "I want this." Maybe I want better thing than you, but I want, I am in need. So therefore those who are in need, they cannot be happy. Bhukti-mukti-siddhi-kāmī sakali aśānta, kṛṣṇa-bhakta niṣkāma (CC Madhya 19.149). Kṛṣṇa-bhakta doesn't want anything. Ataeva śānta. So he is . . . he is satisfied. Svāmin kṛtārtho 'smi varaṁ na yāce (CC Madhya 22.42): "I don't want. I am fully satisfied." Dhruva Mahārāja, he went to the forest, underwent very severe austerity, and when Lord Viṣṇu appeared before him—"Take benediction, whatever you like"—he said, svāmin kṛtārtho 'smi varaṁ na yāce: "I have no more demand. I am fully satisfied."

So this is the teaching. If we want to be fully satisfied, without any demand for sense gratification, then we become happy. And that is available in full Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is . . . Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, na dhanaṁ na janaṁ na sundarīṁ kavitāṁ vā jagadīśa kāmaye. We don't want. People want money and many followers, nice wife, but Caitanya Mahāprabhu refuses.

na dhanaṁ na janaṁ na sundarīṁ

kavitāṁ vā jagadīśa kāmaye

mama janmani janmanīśvare

bhavatād bhaktir

(CC Antya 20.29, Śikṣāṣṭaka 4)

"Let me remain Your servant janmani janmani." Mukti means no more janma. So He doesn't want even mukti. Bhukti-mukti-siddhi. For a devotee, either this life or next life, the business is the same: to serve Kṛṣṇa. So this verse, nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma . . . (SB 5.5.4). People are mad after sense gratification in different ways. So Ṛṣabhadeva says: "No, no, no, this is not good. You have already obtained a material body as a result of your past karma, and you are suffering." Body means suffering. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). "So you have already got this body, and you are suffering. You are again trying to get another body?" Na sādhu manye: "This is not good." Our whole Vedic civilization is punar janma jayāya, to conquer over punar janma. And here Kṛṣṇa gives the very simple formula: janma karma ca me divyaṁ yo jānāti (BG 4.9). If we simply understand what is Kṛṣṇa . . . and what is Kṛṣṇa, for that purpose, we are writing so many books. The scholars, they are appreciating. Otherwise Kṛṣṇa is available very easily. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). But if you want to understand kṛṣṇa-tattvataḥ, then we have got so many books. You can read and try to understand Kṛṣṇa. And when you understand kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28), then your life is successful.

And karmīs are warned, na sādhu manye: "This sense gratification is not good." Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa jantur deha upapatti (SB 3.31.1). Mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani (BG 9.3). This karma means mṛtyu-saṁsāra, again and again. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). You have to change this body. You do not know what kind of body you are going to get. Therefore eight . . . 8,400,000 different forms of body. Any one of them I can get. So if I lose the opportunity of human form of life and be engaged for some years, say ten years, twenty years, fifty years, as very big man, and by my action, if I become a dog next life, then my life is spoiled. We should not spoil our life. We should fully utilize. And how to utilize fully, they are all given, direction, in the śāstra. Bhagavad-gītā is the preliminary understanding, and if we understand Bhagavad-gītā, understand Kṛṣṇa at least little bit . . . That is the end of instruction, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). If we have got faith that what Kṛṣṇa says is right . . . sarva-dharmān parityajya. That is explained by Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja Gosvāmī, that faith, śraddhā . . . śraddhā he has explained.

śraddhā-śabde viśvāsa kahe sudṛḍha niścaya

kṛṣṇe bhakti kaile sarva-karma kṛta haya

(CC Madhya 22.62)

Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66), and one who has got faith in these words—"Yes, if I surrender to Kṛṣṇa, all success will follow"—this is faith.

So faith is the beginning of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saṅgaḥ (CC Madhya 23.14, Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.4.15). So if we have got faith in the words of Kṛṣṇa—they are very openly spoken—then our life becomes successful. But we have no faith in Kṛṣṇa. They take Kṛṣṇa as ordinary human being. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ (BG 9.11). If you say that "You have no faith in Kṛṣṇa. Then you are a mūḍha," he becomes angry. But I don't say; Kṛṣṇa says. We are simply repeating the words of Kṛṣṇa: na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). So if we say, people become angry. And we don't say anything. We simply repeat. That is our business. We are not learned scholars, but our mission is to repeat the words of Kṛṣṇa. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's order. He says, āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra' ei deśa (CC Madhya 7.128): "You become guru." "Now, how shall I become guru? I am neither learned nor Vedantist, neither sannyāsī. How can I become guru?" "No, no, you have no difficulty. You, on My order, become guru simply . . ." Yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa-upadeśa. Bās. "You become guru. Whomever you meet, you simply try to convince him what Kṛṣṇa has spoken. Then you become guru." So we request everyone the same thing. And become guru. It is very urgently necessary. I . . . people are becoming godless, atheist, nonbelievers, and they are suffering. So every village, every home, every neighborhood, they require guru. But who will be guru? One who repeats the instruction of Kṛṣṇa. Yāre dekha tāre kaha. It is very easy.

So people are accepting all over the world the instruction of Kṛṣṇa. These books we are selling. Daily our collection is five to six lakhs of rupees. Now this recent publication, how many copies we have printed, this?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: 220,000.

Prabhupāda: Yes. We expect to sell them very . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Three months' time.

Prabhupāda: That Bhagavad-gītā, abridged edition, we have 300,000?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Of the abridged edition?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Where is that abridged edition?

Devotee (1): It's in the corner.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So foreign countries, foreign religions, and they are foreigners. So why they are purchasing these?

Devotee (2): Three lakhs fifty thousand copies, Bhagavad-gītā As It Is.

Prabhupāda: We are printing huge quantity.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They just printed fifteen lakhs more.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: New printing is fifteen lakhs, one time, abridged edition.

Prabhupāda: Aplog sab ye movement me sab join kijiye, Krishna ka prachar kijiye . . . (You people also join the movement, preach about Kṛṣṇa . . .) that you distribute India's glories. People will feel obliged to India, that "We have got this knowledge from India." Actually knowledge is here. There is no such knowledge all over the world.

bhārata-bhūmite haila manuṣya-janma yāra

janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra

(CC Adi 9.41)

Paropakāra. India is meant for paropakāra. India is not meant for exploiting others. But unfortunately the knowledge is . . . sarasvatī jñāna-khale yathā satī. We have got the store of knowledge, but we have kept it locked up, not distributing to the world. They are called jñāna-khala. One who has knowledge but he does not want to distribute it, that is . . . they are termed as jñāna-khala. So we should not be jñāna-khala. In India there is storehouse of spiritual knowledge, and every one of us should make our life successful by assimilating this knowledge and distribute all over the world. There is customer; there is appreciation. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Boliye . . . theek hai ki nahin. (Tell me... is it alright or not?) Why you should be jñāna-khala? Na sādhu manye. Jñāna should be distributed. The modern scientists also, they have . . . if they have discovered something new, they go and distribute for the benefit of the whole human society. Unfortunately we are distorting the knowledge in Bhagavad-gītā, interpreting in a different way according to my whims, and spoiling my life and others'. This process should be stopped. Present Bhagavad-gītā as it is. You'll be benefited; others . . . don't distort. That is our duty.

Indian man (3): Sir, do you not consider it advisable to get that judgment that the Americans have . . . (indistinct) . . . translated into Indian so we can look?

Prabhupāda: Yes. That . . . we require an expert lawyer. There are some technical terms. Ordinary man cannot translate it. If among yourselves there is a lawyer, if he helps us translate, we can publish it. There are so many legal . . . the judgment is wonderful judgment.

Indian man (3): Historical judgment.

Prabhupāda: Yes. I was expecting to fight that case at least for some years, but by Kṛṣṇa's grace he has given on the first day the judgment.

Indian man (3): Was it argued on also?

Prabhupāda: No. Simply we presented our statement. I advised them that, "You take my eighty-four books and present before the judge that, 'Our statements are here. First of all you read these books, then you give your judgment.' "

Indian man (3): Prabhupāda's judgment.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So (laughs) Kṛṣṇa has given him sense that from the ordinary statement he has understood the whole thing, and he has given judgment immediately. I never exp . . . this is all Kṛṣṇa's arrangement. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). He is in everyone's heart, so He has dictated that, "You give judgment like this." So he . . . otherwise it was impossible. And that is . . . in many courts . . . we have been harassed in Australia, many, many, because they are afraid of. Now Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is advancing. The some . . . one politician has said that, "This movement is increasing like epidemic. If we do not check it, within ten years they'll take our government." (laughter) Yes, in America one politician. So actually that is happening. In spite of so much obstacles, we are increasing. Our books are selling. They are advancing.

We are getting more devotees. Our movement is not checked. It is . . . (break) But you do not know. (laughter) We are dropping from the sky? Our main movement is Europe, America.

Indian man (3): Throughout the world over.

Prabhupāda: All over the world.

Indian man (3): No, all over the world I have heard about . . .

Prabhupāda: So all over the world does not include Europe?

Indian man (3): No, it does.

Prabhupāda: Then why you ask me? We have got in every country of Europe—England, Germany, France, Portugal, Spain, Rome, Sweden—everywhere.

German man: But the Pope is agreeing with you in Rome?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

German man: The Pope is agreeing?

Devotee (2): The Pope.

Prabhupāda: Pope.

German man: In Rome. He is agreeing with Hare Kṛṣṇa . . .?

Prabhupāda: But he agree or . . . who cares for his agreement?

German man: With chanting and . . .

Prabhupāda: We don't care for anyone agrees or not. We push on. That's all. Do you think in India they agree Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Person? Then? We don't care for them. We have to go forward. That is our business. If Kṛṣṇa agrees, that is all right. We don't care for anyone else, agrees or not agrees. If our master agrees—we are servant—and that is our satis . . . we don't care for ordinary . . .

Indian man (3): Unfortunately, that this training ground all over the world, excluding India, the birthplace of this. There the movement should be increased. In present you have got temples in here . . .

Prabhupāda: Gaav ka jo bhi . . . (Whoever is there in the village . . .) They say: "What is this Hare Kṛṣṇa? We have chanted Hare Kṛṣṇa many times. Now let us meditate." This is going on.

Devotee (2): The Indian government even does not grant visa for the followers of Hare Kṛṣṇa movement in India.

Prabhupāda: So we are not dependent on Indian government.

Devotee (2): Just a few months long.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Devotee (2): They don't give long-term visa for Hare Kṛṣṇa movement in India.

Prabhupāda: No.

Devotee (2): Just for few months.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee (2): As tourist people.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Three months. Utmost, six months. And we are losing five to six lakhs of rupees per year for this injustice. I have pointed out the government that, "In America they give permanent residentship to so many Indians. I am also. I have got that blue card, formal residence in America. So why don't you give them permanent residence? They are my assistants." "No." This is our misfortune. I am preaching Indian culture all over the world, and I am bringing at least ten lakhs of rupees, foreign exchange, for my Indian activities, but there is no help from the government. This is our position.

Indian man (4): So now the government has changed.

Prabhupāda: But the machine is the same.

Indian man (3): It may be due to secular state. Maybe that also.

Prabhupāda: No, secular state it was . . .

Indian man (4): Secularism means it's opposed to religion.

Devotee (2): Different parties, different government.

Prabhupāda: No, no. We have to study the Indian constitution. It is defective, because by the same constitution our present Prime Minister was put into custody for nineteen months. And we are working on the same constitution. So the constitution itself is defective. Anything man-made will be defective.

Indian man (3): It will never be perfect.

Prabhupāda: Therefore I am insisting that, "Take the instruction of Kṛṣṇa, you'll be perfect. Don't manufacture."

Indian man (5): You can't have that in authoritarianism. You get that in Delhi, where they feel that they are authority.

Prabhupāda: So become authority. That is . . . we said that. You become guru, authority. But you learn first of all as celā from the guru. And then you become guru. And without any learning, without any . . . how become a guru? That is going on. Everyone is self-made guru. That has to be stopped.

Indian man (5): I feel, in this country at least, the young generation, the present generation, absolutely has got no base, religious base. And . . .

Prabhupāda: Religious base is there. There is scriptures. But they are not being trained up.

Indian man (5): They are trained, but after some time they . . .

Prabhupāda: They do not like to be trained up.

Indian man (5): What will happen to this generation after ten, twenty years?

Prabhupāda: No, if the rascals—again we have to say "The rascals"—the rascal leaders mislead them, there is no hope.

Indian man (5): There is no hope.

Prabhupāda: There is no hope. Now, to prove Bhagavad . . . from Bhagavad-gītā, nonviolence, how it is possible? Bhagavad-gītā begins with the word yuyutsavaḥ. And now, if you want to make it nonviolent, that is misleading. Yuyutsavaḥ means "Fighting spirit." Dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre samavetā yuyutsavaḥ (BG 1.1). So where is nonviolence there? But our leaders want to prove Bhagavad-gītā nonviolence. Is not misleading? Hmm? Why you should misinterpret Bhagavad-gītā?

Indian man (5): Swāmījī, there is no salvation for this country?

Prabhupāda: There is. Not everyone is misled. One who can protect himself from this misleading . . . andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). If they can understand their leaders are blind—they have no knowledge—then they'll be saved. That we are trying. And there is obstacle. When we say: "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Being," they take objection. They say: "Kṛṣṇa is an ordinary man." Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ (BG 9.11). This is the struggle going on.

Indian man (5): So we have to leave everything in the faith of Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Indian man (5): We have to leave everything . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian man (5): . . . at the feet of Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam . . . (BG 18.66). That is the instruction.

Indian man (5): Whatever He does, He does all.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Not does. He wants you also to do. He . . . He does not anything. Everything is done by His . . . parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate svābhāvikī jñāna-bala-kriyā ca (Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 6.8). He hasn't got to do anything. Na tasya kāryaṁ karaṇaṁ ca. He has got many names. Still, He acts to teach us. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. He's so kind, but as soon as He comes to teach us, we take Him as ordinary man.

Indian man (5): Is He coming again?

Prabhupāda: Yes. He has already come.

Indian man (5): Eh?

Prabhupāda: He has already come—by His name. Kali-kāle kṛṣṇa nāma-rūpe avatāra.

Indian man (5): Oh, that's correct.

Prabhupāda: This Hare Kṛṣṇa is Kṛṣṇa. He's absolute. His name, His form, His attributes, His paraphernalia—they're all one. So He . . . this Hare Kṛṣṇa name is not different from Kṛṣṇa. The . . . nāma cintāmaṇiḥ kṛṣṇaḥ . . .

nāma cintāmaṇiḥ kṛṣṇaś

caitanya-rasa-vigrahaḥ

pūrṇaḥ śuddho nitya-mukto

'bhinnatvān nāma-nāminoḥ

(CC Madhya 17.133)

Nāma is Kṛṣṇa. So He has already come. He's . . . ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanaṁ bhava-mahā-dāvāgni (CC Antya 20.12). If you simply take harer nāma harer nāma . . . (CC Adi 17.21). Kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet (SB 12.3.51). This is the verdict of Bhāgavata. Kaler doṣa-nidhe rājann asti hy eko mahān guṇaḥ. We have got a special concession in this Kali-yuga. We cannot execute all the instruction in the Vedas. We are fallen down. But if we chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra—kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet—he becomes liberated from all the faults of this Kali-yuga, and paraṁ vrajet, goes back home, back to Godhead. So Kṛṣṇa is already there. Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāmaiva kevalam, kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva nāsty eva (CC Adi 17.21). This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's . . . chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Wherever you are staying, it doesn't matter. Sthāne sthitāḥ śruti-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ-manobhiḥ (SB 10.14.3). There is very simple formula. You can become liberated simply by chanting. And if you think that you are very learned philosopher, read all these books. Two ways there are. Thing is very simple. Even a boy can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Indian man (5): Rāma and Kṛṣṇa are same person.

Prabhupāda: No. Rāmādi-mūrtiṣu kalā-niyamena tiṣṭhan. (BS 5.39) Kṛṣṇa has unlimited number of expansions—Rāma, Nṛsiṁha, Varāha . . . there are . . . rāmādi-mūrtiṣu kalā-niyamena tiṣṭhan nānāvatāram akarod bhuvaneṣu, kṛṣṇaḥ svayaṁ samabhavat. Kṛṣṇa is the original person, and Rāma and Kṛṣṇa the same, expansion.

Indian man (5): That's what I mean, Rāma and Kṛṣṇa are the same.

Prabhupāda: Same. Kṛṣṇa is Rāma, and Rāma, Kṛṣṇa. So we chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Rāma. There is no difference. So . . .?

Indian man (5): We are living in more horrible conditions than what was obtained in the time of Mahābhārata.

Prabhupāda: What?

Indian man (5): And Kṛṣṇa has promised definitely that He would appear whenever there is . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, He has appeared, nāma-rūpe avatāra.

Indian man (5): So I think we are passing through a greater hell than what was . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: No, no, the disease is there; the remedy is there. If you take the remedy, so there is no question of suffering from the disease. But you refuse to take the remedy. Just like this verse from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Twelfth Canto. This Kali-yuga is the ocean of faults. Why should we lament for that? The remedy is there. Kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta . . . (SB 12.3.51). You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, you'll become relieved immediately. So why don't you take the remedy? Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti (BG 7.14). Why you are so much disturbed by māyā? Just surrender to Kṛṣṇa. So it is our choice. We do not do that, and we suffer. Mām aprāpya nivartante mṛtyu-saṁsāra . . . Kṛṣṇa is giving personally. He has taken you, and we are not accepting. What can be done? The knowledge is there, the process is there, the authority is there, all the ācāryas, they have accepted, but we are so stubborn, we'll not accept. That is the difficulty. We'll manufacture our own ways. Yato mata tato patha. That is the difficulty. So it is past six. Have some kīrtana. (kīrtana begins) (end)