Philosophy Discussion on Johann Gottlieb Fichte

Template:PHL Header Prabhupāda: So? What is the...?

Śyāmasundara: We're discussing this German philosopher, Fichte. Last... We had discussed the whole philosophy then we lost the last half of the tape so I'll just start where we left off. Just to review slightly...

Prabhupāda: Then why don't you, whatever you have got, you get it transcribed and send it to Hayagrīva Prabhu.

Śyāmasundara: Well, I'm pretty much going to have to edit this because...

Prabhupāda: Then we'll edit. All right.

Śyāmasundara: Fichte's idea is that the world is a rational unified system which is directed toward a purpose and that the self-consciousness...

Prabhupāda: It is opposite to that philosophy. He said there is no purpose.

Śyāmasundara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: He said there is a purpose.

Śyāmasundara: This man is coming about 1800, 1820. Sartre's contemporary. In those times...

Prabhupāda: Before him.

Śyāmasundara: Much before him, about 150 years ago. He takes as the absolute first principle the self-consciousness or the evil(?), "I am", the awareness that I exist as an absolute a priori first principle.

Prabhupāda: That is Vedānta. We are studying what I am. That is Vedānta philosophy, to study what I am. And the answer is given by us, Vaiṣṇava philosophers, that you are eternal servant of God. This is Vedānta . Everyone is searching what I am, we are giving the answer: "You are eternal servant of God." Now let them refute this that he's not servant, he's absolute(?). Our answer is there. Athāto brahma jijñāsā , to inquire about Brahman, the spirit soul. What is this spirit soul, what I am. What is the supreme. So, Caitanya Mahāprabhu's answer is already there, jīvera svarūpa haya nitya kṛṣṇa dāsa CC Madhya 20.108-109. The real identity of the living entity is that he's eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa.

Śyāmasundara: He says that philosophy or the search for truth begins with the self-conscious demand that one should think thyself, think myself.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that's nice. That is discussed in Bhagavad-gītā that you should meditate actually what I am. You go on analyzing your body, "Am I these hands? No, it is mine. Am I this head? No, it is my head." So naturally, you come to the point, "Then where I am? I am saying everything mine. Ahaṁ mameti SB 5.5.8. What is that I?" That is replied in the Bhagavad-gītā, (indistinct) kaunteya, kṣetra (indistinct). This body, I am not body, you study, it is the field which is given to me for acting. Just like if you are given one jurisdiction, some field, so act there, work there. Similarly, this body is given to us by nature as field of working. Therefore, this yogic meditation, this is consciousness, and I am not this body. That is the beginning of knowledge. Before that (indistinct) thinking that he's this body, he is no better than animal. Big animal. Here is the knowledge. When one understands that he is not this body, something beyond this body—"I am not this body, this is my body"—that is knowledge.

Śyāmasundara: This Fichte actually comes to that conclusion because he borrows from Kant and develops this idea of the dialectic that there's thesis, the antithesis and it becomes combined in synthesis. He puts forward the idea that the ego, the subjective identity that the thesis has given and opposing that is the antithesis or material nature. Just like my body is the antithesis of my ego, so it is non-ego. So he says ego, non-ego, there's a continuous struggle.

Prabhupāda: When I think that I am this body, that is false ego. That is false ego. Because I am not this body. So those who are falsely identifying this body, (indistinct) they're animals. They're (indistinct).

Śyāmasundara: So he sees that the world is made up of a combination of continuous struggle of dialectic between the opposing elements of ego and non-ego. My subjective identity and the objective world are continually locked in struggle, endlessly, and this is the way things are going on.

Prabhupāda: Not endlessly, but if you understand that you are not this body, then this ignorance is ended, immediately. So you cannot say it is endless.

Śyāmasundara: He says that there is a gradual evolution towards self-realization if one uses his reason.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is gradual process of evolution is from animal kingdom to human life. When one comes to the human form of life then the realization (indistinct) is there.

Śyāmasundara: So he seeks to combine these two types of reason, Kant set up. There's pure reason and practical reason or moral reason. In other words speculative reason and practical reason or moral reason.

Prabhupāda: Practical, practical reason is that if I think I am this body, then where is the difference between dead body and living? Living body means I am in this body, that is living body. As soon as I give up this body, I go and accept another body. Then it is dead body. So this is practical reason, that without the soul this body is a lump of matter. It is very practical. Therefore soul is different from this matter.

Śyāmasundara: He says that our progress towards this kind of understanding comes about because we unify our speculative reason, our theoretical reason with our practical reason or our moral reason.

Prabhupāda: This is practical. Anyone can understand that when the body is, does not contain any more the soul, then it is dead, dead body, lump of matter. So spirit soul is different from the matter. This is practical. If anyone cannot understand, then he's less intelligent. This is practical.

Śyāmasundara: His idea of ultimate reality is that it is the moral ego or pure will that...

Prabhupāda: Then he has to define what is morality.

Śyāmasundara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Everyone says, "It is my morality." Everyone can manufacture (indistinct). Just like, for example in India if somebody talks of homosex (indistinct) immoral, and here it is going on. (indistinct). So what is morality? (indistinct).

Śyāmasundara: He uses the categorical imperative that Kant set up, the different categories of goodness and badness.

Prabhupāda: That means if you are in the modes of goodness, your morality is different from the morality of the man who is in the modes of ignorance.

Śyāmasundara: But he says that everything should be understood in terms of what it ought to be, that there is an absolute good.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: And every activity should be understood in terms of that absolute good.

Prabhupāda: That, that we say liberation. One should be free from the material contamination. That is our... Because under material condition, he is in three modes, goodness, passion and ignorance. So one who is in goodness he does not approve conclusion in ignorance. And one who is in ignorance, he thinks it is better.

Śyāmasundara: So if one is looking on the objects of the world in terms of what they ought to be...

Prabhupāda: Ought to be, how you'll know it? Unless he gets information from the higher authority what is ought to be? You cannot manufacture. If you are in the modes of ignorance, your "ought to be", just like they're saying the animals have no soul and we are saying, "No, you cannot kill animals." So we are in different position. So what is "ought to be", who will dictate? If you dictate yourself, your concept of killing, it "ought to be". And my concept of not killing, is "ought to be". So what is the standard?

Then you have to go to the authority, go for judgement.

Śyāmasundara: These German philosophers, they generally accept the Christian standard of morality to be what ought to be.

Prabhupāda: That's also good, but Christian morality, who is abiding by Christian morality? The Christian morality, in the beginning it is said "Thou shalt not kill," and they're all killing. So it will be very difficult to find out a real Christian who is following the morality. "Thou shalt not covet," and they're doing all this nonsense.

Śyāmasundara: Any rate, he's more or less investigating just what is the nature of man without going into the goals.

Prabhupāda: That we have got. Nature of man, nature of living entity is that he's eternal servant. He is serving. Everyone is serving. Who is a living entity where in this world he can say that "I am not serving, I am absolute, I am nobody's servant"? Everyone is serving. Either he's serving māyā or Kṛṣṇa, that's all. When he is in knowledge, he is serving Kṛṣṇa and when he's foolish, ignorant, he's serving māyā . That's all. But he must serve. Just like a citizen, he must abide by the order of the state. If he abides by the order of the state in an ordinary way, then he's a good citizen. And if he (indistinct), then he will have to be forced to abide by the order of the state (indistinct). But in all cases he must abide by the order (indistinct).

Śyāmasundara: He also sees things in that way. He sees the unfolding of reality as the fulfillment of duty, that one must always strive for what ought to be, what is fulfillment of his duty.

That, that information we are giving that in reality everyone is servant, but he is under misconception, he's thinking he's master and he's forced to serve māyā . This is reality. Just like a outlaw, he is thinking that free from the state law but he's forced to abide by the state law in the kingdom. Similarly my position is I must carry the order. I am inferior. I must carry out the order of the superior. The superior, the supreme superior is Kṛṣṇa. If I voluntarily become the servant and carry out His order, then it is my normal life. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam vraja BG 18.66. Otherwise it is abnormal life. I have to serve māyā. Daivī hy eṣā guṇa-mayī mama māyā duratyayā BG 18.66 . Māyā will kick upon my face and force me to do something, prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi BG 18.66. So I will be servant of prakṛti , material nature. That means I will be servant of my senses. By nature, my senses dictate, "Now you do this," I will be forced to do it. This is my position.

Śyāmasundara: When you spoke earlier about what the definite idea of what is good, to strive for, if you were to say that "Thou shall not kill" is good, then what if Kṛṣṇa says "Kill"? Then that doesn't have any meaning, "Thou shall not kill."

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa does not say, "Thou shall not kill." Where Kṛṣṇa has said, "Thou shall not kill."

Śyāmasundara: Well, he tells Arjuna...

Prabhupāda: Arjuna. Other words(?) is not for you. Why do you say Kṛṣṇa says to kill?

Śyāmasundara: No, I'm saying that...

Prabhupāda: That is our—Kṛṣṇa is absolute. He can order anything He likes, but you have to carry out Kṛṣṇa's order. If Kṛṣṇa says you to kill, then you can kill. You cannot say that "Kṛṣṇa has said to Arjuna to kill, therefore I shall kill."

Śyāmasundara: So what I mean is instead of saying that this is good and that is bad, all you can say really is what is good is what Kṛṣṇa says.

Prabhupāda: That's it.

Śyāmasundara: Kṛṣṇa's order is what is good.

Prabhupāda: That is actually doing. Actually in our experience also, just like a soldier, he kills by the order, superior order of the state. He is given gold medal. And if the same man, when he comes home, if he kills, he is hanged. Why? Because you can kill under superior order, not whimsically. Generally the order is not to kill, but if he says now kill, you can... that is order, that you have to take. And if you say at that time, "Sir, you told me not to kill," that is (indistinct). General order and specific order. So Kṛṣṇa says, amānitvam adambhitvam ahiṁsā kṣāntir ārjavam BG 13.8 . He is giving the process of knowledge, amānitvam adambhitvam , not to be proud, ahiṁsā , nonviolence. These are there, eighteen qualities for understanding spiritual values. So it is general. Now for particular purposes if Kṛṣṇa says, "Yes, you must kill," you must abide by that order. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Śyāmasundara: So the standard of what ought to be is that one should fulfill one's duty to Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: That is good, that is moral, real morality.

Śyāmasundara: So Kṛṣṇa uses the same terminology that one should fulfill his duty and if this is the what ought to be.

Prabhupāda: Duty means superior order. That is duty. You cannot manufacture your duty.

Śyāmasundara: His idea is a little impersonal because he says that we discern what ought to be from the forces of nature around you, reality unfolding.

Prabhupāda: Then he abides by the forces of nature. That is nature is superior. He does not know beyond nature there is another superior being, that is God. That is his lack of knowledge. That is the difficulty. If you are not perfect, where is that philosopher?

Śyāmasundara: He sees an intelligence acting in nature.

Prabhupāda: Anyway he accepts the superiority of nature, superior position of nature. He accepts it. So but beyond the nature there is a... the Supreme Personality Godhead. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram BG 9.10 . Under My direction nature works. So he has no vision to see the background of nature.

Śyāmasundara: They term nature as the unfolding of events, as a thing in itself. They don't understand that beyond that is the controller.

Prabhupāda: That is lack of knowledge, poor fund of knowledge. So these persons with poor fund of knowledge, they should not take the position of a philosopher. This is misguided, misleading. That is going on. Mental concoction, speculating, without any authority.

Śyāmasundara: This idea of Fichte means duty...

Prabhupāda: And what is the duty? Unless there is superior order, you ask me to do something, then where is your duty?

Śyāmasundara: Well, to do our duty is to do what ought to be.

Prabhupāda: Who has prescribed that this is ought to be?

Śyāmasundara: Well, the world order prescribes what ought to be.

Prabhupāda: World order, what is that world order? Is it blind?

Śyāmasundara: Harmony, whatever causes harmony...

Prabhupāda: What is harmony, who will define? You say this is harmony, I say this is harmony. Therefore our philosophy is perfect. We are taking our duty from the Supreme. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja BG 18.66, that is authority, only to surrender to Kṛṣṇa and abide by His order.

Śyāmasundara: Actually his philosophy has that loophole, that there's no

Prabhupāda: Every philosophy will be loophole. Everybody, that we shall find out, others cannot find out, what is that loophole.

Śyāmasundara: Because of this, the German state was able to step in and say, "Your duty is to follow us."

Prabhupāda: Who are you? The question is, "Who are you?"

Śyāmasundara: I am Hitler. I control the...

Prabhupāda: That is "Might is right." But Hitler was finished now. That anyone can say, the tiger can also say. "Might is right. I am powerful, you must (indistinct)."

Śyāmasundara: He says that philosophy must begin with the assumption that being is nothing but that duty is absolutely everything.

Prabhupāda: That is nonsense. Without being how you can do your duty?

Śyāmasundara: That being, being doesn't strive for what is, being is always striving for what ought to be. He always has a sense of duty. There should be something other than this that I must...

Prabhupāda: That Supreme Being, He can be (indistinct) up to. You, you cannot do such. You commit mistake. Therefore you do not know what is ought to be or not to be.

Śyāmasundara: Just like this propensity is there in men not simply to be satisfied with what is but always to strive for something improving, what ought to be.

Prabhupāda: So we, we give that ultimate ought to be that you will become surrendered soul to Kṛṣṇa. That is ultimate ought to be.

Śyāmasundara: And he says that everything should be seen in relation to that what ought to be (indistinct).

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is our philosophy. If it is approved and Rūpa Gosvāmī says , ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu-śīlanaṁ CC Madhya 19.167 , our ought to be is what is Kṛṣṇa approves or His representative approves. That is ought to be. Our standard. Otherwise it is not, not ought to be. Therefore we accept our guidance (indistint ). Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. Therefore Vedas say that one must approach a bona fide spiritual master, in order to be fully in knowledge. Ācāryavān puruṣo veda . These are Vedic injunctions. One who has accepted a bona fide spiritual master, he knows everything. Ācāryavān puruṣo veda . Veda means in knowledge. So ācāryavān , one who has accepted ācārya . Therefore our principle is to follow the ācārya . In Bhagavad-gītā also it is said, ācārya upāsanam , one must worship ācārya , to go to the right knowledge. So that is our philosophy.

Śyāmasundara: In his epistemology or his study of knowledge he said that events are not made necessary by causes, but that everything is motivated by its own purpose. In other words if I drop this...

Prabhupāda: That means there is no chance.

Śyāmasundara: No chance.

Prabhupāda: Yes. There is no question of chance.

Śyāmasundara: If I drop this and there is a reaction, a noise, it is not because this caused the noise but that each thing is motivated by its own purpose.

Prabhupāda: But there is already the law, if he falls down there will be noise(?). The thing is already there, but it becomes manifested under certain circumstances, that's all.

Śyāmasundara: But his idea is that dropping of this does not cause it to be necessary that there is noise, but that because the world purpose is unfolding...

Prabhupāda: Where is that... Causeless means... There are two kinds of causes, efficient(?) cause and (indistinct) So it may be (indistinct) cause where there are many remote causes. But ultimate cause is Kṛṣṇa. Sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam [Bs. 5.1] .

Śyāmasundara: That's his idea. He's looking at the ultimate cause, there is a motivation for everything. It's not accidental, that nothing is, no event is...

Prabhupāda: That we say, there is no such thing as accident.

Śyāmasundara: In other words if I perform some act with the expectation that something will result, it's not necessary that that act, that will result. There's no necessity for that.

Prabhupāda: That is our philosophy, that let Kṛṣṇa sanction. There cannot be (indistinct).

Śyāmasundara: There's no necessity...

Prabhupāda: I may try to do something with my expert knowledge but still if it is not sanctioned by Kṛṣṇa, it will not (indistinct).

Śyāmasundara: There's no necessity by cause.

Prabhupāda: Ultimate cause is He, daivī . That is (indistinct) in the Bhagavad..., five causes. So out of five causes, the daivī is providence. Providential cause is primary.

Śyāmasundara: More than the others.

Prabhupāda: Others is place, the worker, the means.

Devotee: (indistinct)

Śyāmasundara: In Bhagavad-gītā .

Prabhupāda: Yes. You may be very expert but the ultimate will be daivī cause is not in favor, it will not (indistinct). Here example is just like you (indistinct) your service, suffering, sick, and you are employing first-class doctor, first-class medical, first-class attendant there is no guarantee that you (indistinct). Then where is the cause? What is the cause? From the scientific world you can say that my (indistinct) I have appointed first-class physician, first-class medicine, first-class, everything, but my son died. Then where is the power?

Śyāmasundara: Whatever caused this person's death is the ultimate cause.

Prabhupāda: Therefore the ultimate cause is Kṛṣṇa. If Kṛṣṇa does not sanction your so-called first-class medicine, physician, place, and everything will be spoiled. And if he sanctions, even you don't appoint any physician, he will (indistinct). Rakhe kṛṣṇa mareke mare kṛṣṇa rakheke . If Kṛṣṇa kills nobody can save him, and if Kṛṣṇa saves, nobody can kill. Just like Rāvaṇa, Hiraṇyakaśipu. They made plans that they'll never die, but Kṛṣṇa killed them. No condition will be (indistinct). That is our philosophy.

Śyāmasundara: That's it. He says here, of all things the ego is uncaused, the spontaneous self-consciousness...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because I am living force, the ego must be there. I am. And that I am may be misplaced: "I am this body or this mind." Real I am, I am servant of Kṛṣṇa, that is real I am.

Śyāmasundara: So the I am is not caused by anything.

Prabhupāda: No, I am is eternal, Kṛṣṇa is eternal, and I (am) also eternal.

Śyāmasundara: So he says that the noncaused ego posits the nonego, or it gives them meaning, existence. It gives...

Prabhupāda: That is our philosophy, nonego means although I have got my identification, I am, still I have sacrificed everything for Kṛṣṇa. If Kṛṣṇa says "You do this," I don't say, "I will not do." I don't impose my will. I sacrifice my individuality. Kṛṣṇa says, I must do. Therefore my ego is not there.

Śyāmasundara: He uses the same example of Barthe(?) that essais persice (?) means that this exists because I perceive it, that all these non-ego objects are...

Prabhupāda: No, that we don't agree. It exists independent from our perception.

Śyāmasundara: But it must be perceived by someone to exist.

Prabhupāda: That is different (indictinct) the one who has manufactured it (indistinct). So similarly, God is in (indistinct) of everything, I may not. That is described in the Bhāgavata , anvayād itarataś ca, anvayād (indistinct) sa abhijñaḥ . He is not (indistinct). Nothing can be concealed from the vision of God.

Śyāmasundara: So to be is to be perceived but because God perceives it, it exists.

Prabhupāda: Without God nothing can exist.

Śyāmasundara: So he says that we come into this world and these objects are here...

Prabhupāda: Janmādy asya yataḥ anvayād itarataś ca artheṣu abhijñaḥ svarāṭ SB 1.1.1 . (indistinct). He is the originator of everything, anvayād itarataś ca artheṣu , indirectly, directly, whatever there are, He knows everything. I do not know who has manufactured this, I see only but I do not know (indistinct).

Śyāmasundara: He says we come into this world and we posit or we bring into existence the material objects, non-ego objects but the duty of the practical reason to guide these objects properly, to utilize them according to the practical will.

Prabhupāda: Then you require the shelter of Vedas . He will give you direction how to live. You have come in this material world for fulfilling your material desires therefore the Vedas give you direction that you try to fulfill your desires in this way, so that one day you may come to your original.

Śyāmasundara: He says that all of nature as we see it is only illusory sense material reflecting the ongoing moral necessity of reality of the universe.

Prabhupāda: That is our philosophy. Mirage, sometimes mirage, if you see in front of the water in the desert. Actually there is no water in the desert, but you see under illusion. But you know, you are human being, you know that there is no water, you don't go after it. But the animal will go after it and he'll lose his life because (indistinct). He wants to take that water, and the water also goes ahead. In this way when he's too thirsty in the midst of desert he becomes dead. So that is the difference between man and animal. So the human consciousness, when it is developed, you come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then you become detached with this material mirage. He does not run after the false water. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Others may go after the false water. That is called māyā , or illusion.

Śyāmasundara: His idea is that by observing the material energy that we can get an idea of what is the real duty of the universe. You can perceive it in the ongoing fluctuations of material nature, the duty or reality of the universe.

Prabhupāda: That is not possible. If he is ignorant, how he can understand? There must be direction, guidance.

Śyāmasundara: He says that the pure speculative reasoning...

Prabhupāda: No, that is (indistinct).

Śyāmasundara: But this pure speculative reason must be unified with practical reason also.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But practical means he will require guidance. (laughter)

Śyāmasundara: He says the institutions such as laws can participate in this unfolding of the reason of the universe, duty of the universe for instance by controlling conflicts between personalities and so on. Law, the laws of the state, the laws of (indistinct) can participate in the unfolding of the universe, the purpose of the universe.

Prabhupāda: Yes. We accept that personality may be (indistinct), not that we pick up any man from the street and we accept guru. That will not (indistinct). Śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham [MU 1.2.12], one who has heard properly from his spiritual master and as a result of such hearing he is perfectly in God consciousness (indistinct).

Śyāmasundara: How does this fit in with what I was just saying about institutions such as laws, things like that. They can participate in the purpose of the universe, in bringing out the purpose of the universe. I make a law that you shall not kill, does that participate...

Prabhupāda: No, you cannot make law. Law can be made by God. You have to abide by the law. You cannot (indistinct), you are imperfect, how you can make law? Your law will be imperfect.

Śyāmasundara: The state cannot make laws to (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: State is (indistinct) because we have no other experience beyond the state. But the state also, according to Vedic civilization, state means he must be king. King must be representative of God. So king is therefore called naradeva . That we have discussed in the matter of Pṛthu Mahārāja. So king is supposed to be representative of God and he has to execute his royal authority by direction of God. The brāhmaṇas and the sages, they give him direction. These things are being very thoroughly discussed when Pṛthu Mahārāja in the Fourth Canto. That is civilization.

Śyāmasundara: He appreciates that. He says that the institutions of civilization can help bring out the purpose of the universe.

Prabhupāda: Purpose of the universe is already there, but you have to know it through proper channels. But if you speculate then you will be misled. That's all. They want to speculate, that is their defect.

Śyāmasundara: He says that the world, he calls it the stuff of duty, the world is made up of the stuff of duty.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Stuff of duty, because duty means you are abiding by the superior order, that is duty. So we accept Vedas , the superior order. When it is stated, order in the Vedas , then we accept. That example we have given several times, if the Veda says that cow dung is pure. Once it is said that any stool of animal is impure. Then Veda says, "No, cowdung is pure." So you cannot argue that once you said that stool of animal is impure, how you say that cowdung is pure? You cannot contradict. You will have to accept it because it is order of the Vedas . (indistinct)

Śyāmasundara: He sees that everything in the world, all nonego objects, all the objects of the world are seeking to realize themselves. Everything is seeking to realize itself.

Prabhupāda: Yes, seeking, therefore if you take advantage of a perfect person, then that seeking will be (indistinct) very soon understand. Otherwise he'll hover in the oblivion. That's all. Our process is we are seeking but we are going to the Absolute Person, Kṛṣṇa, and you are taking the knowledge, immediately. That saves our time. If you are seeking, considering your (indistinct) very great scholar, research scholar, then you are misled. Our process is very nice. Therefore tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet [MU 1.2.12], the injunction is you must approach a bona fide spiritual master to make a short cut of the searching.

Śyāmasundara: Because everything is seeking to realize itself, that that means there is a moral order to...

Prabhupāda: Certainly.

Śyāmasundara: So that each individual must act according to his duty and his conscience in this world.

Prabhupāda: No. Conscience, an entity is Kṛṣṇa conscience, it is useless.

Śyāmasundara: Conscience.

Prabhupāda: Conscience, yes. A thief, he also prepares his conscience. When he goes to steal he says, "I must, because I have to maintain my family. I do not know any other business, I must." This is his conscience. The other conscious is, "No, no, no I cannot steal. It is sin." So where is the conscience? Conscience is not standard. You make your, manufacture your own conscience. Therefore you have to take advice from Kṛṣṇa conscience. That is real conscience. Whether it is (indistinct) with Kṛṣṇa conscience, that is (indistinct). Otherwise he created own conscience.

Śyāmasundara: It is that the supreme principle of world order is freedom.

Prabhupāda: Yes, freedom. Our present condition is not freedom. We are completely under the laws, te 'pi svatantra rudhāṇī vardhya (?). They are tied up by the ropes of material nature, hands and legs, and still they are thinking, "I am free." That is illusion. Nobody is free. Daivī hy eṣā guṇa-mayī mama māyā duratyayā BG 7.14 . We are seeking freedom but nobody is free. Nobody is free. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni BG 7.14 , they are pulled by the ear, "Do this." Prakṛteḥ . You have to do this.

Śyāmasundara: He says that the free will, which creates itself or realizes itself is the truest of all realities.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So if by free will if you choose to surrender to Kṛṣṇa they you'll get your real free will, freedom. Otherwise you are under the clutches of māyā . Daivī hy eṣā guṇa-mayī mama māyā duratyayā BG 7.14. You cannot surpass the stringent laws of material nature, that is not...

Śyāmasundara: He says, contrary to Kant, he says that the practical reason is primary, is the first thing, that what is practical is superior to what is...

Prabhupāda: Practical, this means, suppose I want to do something, I do not know, then I go and ask a superior person who knows it. Just like when you drive your car, you are going somewhere, so you take the direction from the signpost, this way go, this point here, this village. Similarly, for practical purpose you have to approach a person who knows. That is practical. And if you think that I shall do it myself, without consulting anyone, that is not practical, that is theoretical. You will be misled. At least we are prone to be misled.

Śyāmasundara: He says that the reason is subordinate to the will.

Prabhupāda: Yes, thinking, feeling, willing, so willing, I want to do something, I apply my reason, that is intelligence. If we do it intelligently then it is good, and if I do it foolishly then it is bad. Will is there.

Śyāmasundara: Will is (indistinct) will is primary reason.

Prabhupāda: No. After reasoning, then you will. After reasoning.

Śyāmasundara: First reasoning, then willing. He says the opposite. He says that reason is subordinate to will.

Prabhupāda: That can be also.

Śyāmasundara: He sees the will as practical, practical reason...

Prabhupāda: This thinking, feeling, willing, they are all taken together as reasoning. What do you think? What is the psychology? Hayagrīva(?) Prabhu? What is there? Thinking, feeling, willing, do you think that you shall be a rich man, you think. Then you make your process how you will become a rich man, then work will (indistinct). Or you will, thinking, feeling, willing, "Yes, I must be rich man," then how you can in this way, that way. But intelligence is above thinking, feeling, willing. Everyone, a dog also thinks he'll feel, he has no intelligence. He has intelligence (indistinct).

Śyāmasundara: He says that all reasoning comes about as a result of our desires or our will, whatever we are willing, then we begin to reason.

Prabhupāda: That is not willing, that is thinking. That is not willing.

Śyāmasundara: Rationalizing.

Prabhupāda: Yes, thinking. I am thinking to become like this. If we generally say like that, "I am thinking." Is it not?

Śyāmasundara: I am thinking to go somewhere.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, I am thinking. So if there is any difference between thinking, feeling and willing then thinking first.

Śyāmasundara: Will, willing something is more like desiring something, isn't it?

Prabhupāda: That desiring begins from thinking.

Śyāmasundara: Contemplating the objects of the senses one (indistinct). He says that if one combines rational thought with his will then this will help him towards self-realization.

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Śyāmasundara: If he combines rational thought with willing...

Prabhupāda: So wherefrom the rational thought comes?

Śyāmasundara: That is an a priori fact, that I think therefore I am.

Devotee: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: But we cannot..., pure thought process, I cannot do anything more than think myself. I can think that I think therefore I am.

Prabhupāda: You can think, but if you are helped by somebody else who knows the way, then it becomes easier. You are thinking of driving a car. If somebody expert... (break) ...that is practical. Yes.

Śyāmasundara: He says that it is very difficult because the nonego objects are always trying to lead us astray.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore you have to take advantage of an experienced man who knows things. He does not accept any superior.

Śyāmasundara: He says that the moral goal, the moral reality of (indistinct) is the ultimate in superiority...

Prabhupāda: That morality we have already discussed, what is the morality. You can create your own morality, I can create my own morality. What is actual morality?

Śyāmasundara: Maybe that's a good place to end. (end)

Discussions with Hayagrīva dāsa