750612 - Conversation - Honolulu

Conversations by Date, 1975

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

Listen to a 'Nectar Drop' created from this Conversation

750612R1-HONOLULU - June 12, 1975 - 64:24 Minutes

Prabhupāda: You giving this theory that from the tree a man and a monkey came. So, where is that experiment? Where is that?

Siddha-svarūpa: Sometimes it is seen that impersonalists, although they may be impersonalists, still they may not directly speak of themselves as being equal to Kṛṣṇa. They, it is sometimes found that impersonalists they don’t, they will not directly speak of themselves as being equal to Kṛṣṇa. They will not even mention. They wont even mention.

Prabhupāda: Generally do.

Govinda dasi: Śrīla Prabhupāda? So, our relationship with you as spiritual master has existed eternally in the past, or will exist eternally?

Prabhupāda: That don’t bother with it. Go on, do with minimum.

(long pause)

Past and present, you are present, the commentary is just carry out the orders, that's all. When you have accepted spiritual master, carry out, that's all. cakhu-dān dilo jei, janme janme prabhu sei. Past means that, then you admit to your disciple, that in the past you could not carry out, therefore accept another birth. So, carry out. That is the point. What is the use of talking past, present and future? ār nā koriho mane āśā. This is wanted. Don’t think of anything else. That is the point.

Siddha-svarūpa: So, then if I’m worried about my past or my future . . .?

Prabhupāda: No, whatever is past is past. Now, I have got the knowledge, let me carry out. Cakhu-dān, now I have got this real knowledge. What is the use of thinking of past ? In the past somebody was hippie was drinking. No, that world was past. Let me progress. Now let me do responsible thing. That is the point.

Govinda dasi: Actually, I’m trying to understand the future of my misery.

Prabhupāda: Oh, we do not think of future. If I work sincerely, then future is all right.

Siddha-svarūpa: Bhaktivinode Thakura says . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Siddha-svarūpa: . . . forget the past that . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Siddha-svarūpa: . . . sleeps, and the future ne’er . . .

Prabhupāda: Why should we bother about the past? Past was not perfect. Therefore, I have got this, birth again . . . (indistinct) . . . what is the use of concocting? Whatever has passed has passed. Now let me be sincere.

Siddha-svarūpa: And, and what is the basic reason for my concern for the future?

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Siddha-svarūpa: What would the . . .?

Prabhupāda: For the future, let me do sincerely. Whatever future will be, that will be.

Siddha-svarūpa: So then I haven’t even . . .?

Prabhupāda: If I do not go to Vaikuntha, doesn’t matter.

Siddha-svarūpa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Still I shall carry out.

Siddha-svarūpa: So I have to be free from all cares with my future . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Siddha-svarūpa: . . . for myself.

Prabhupāda: Yes. If, faith should be there, if I am working rightly, then my future will be, secure. That is future. I have taken to this path for going back to home, back to Godhead, so I am, if I am doing nicely, according to the instructions of . . . (indistinct) . . . why should he think of? And if I am not doing rightly, then . . . (indistinct) . . . this is called faith. Why should you bother about future? What is the reason?

Siddha-svarūpa: If I, I, I would bother about my future . . .

Prabhupāda: There is no question of bothering.

Siddha-svarūpa: I mean, I care about my future when . . .

Prabhupāda: If you care you do, just like Kṛṣṇa says:

janma karma ca me divyam

evaṁ yo vetti tattvataḥ

tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma

naiti mām eti kaunteya

(BG 4.9)

Past and future is explained there.

man-manā bhava mad-bhakto

mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru

(BG 18.65)

Do this. Always chant, think of Me, that mām evaiṣyasi asaṁśayam, be assured you will come to Me. So why don’t you do your duty? And Kṛṣṇa assures, they will come to Me, there is no doubt . . . (indistinct) . . . why should he bother for the future? If you do exactly according to the rules and regulations, then your future is guaranteed. Even it is not guaranteed, still I shall go on doing. And that is pure. It is guaranteed. Kṛṣṇa said, mām evaiṣyasi asaṁśayam, so why do you doubt? Why there should be doubt? Kṛṣṇa said it is guaranteed. Why should you bother about future? You, you bother whether you are doing rightly or not. That should be your business. Otherwise Kṛṣṇa assures. Were is doubt? Huh? The future is assured by Kṛṣṇa, and . . . why you are doubting? That you don’t believe in Kṛṣṇa. You have to see whether you are doing rightly what Kṛṣṇa says. That is your business. What is the use of thinking past, future, present? Do your duty as Kṛṣṇa says, as spiritual master says, then everything is all right. There is no question or doubt. Kṛṣṇa says, asaṁśayam, mām evaiṣyasi asaṁśayam. Asaṁśayam means without a doubt you will come to Me.

Siddha-svarūpa: So if I . . .

Prabhupāda: And ours should be that, it is not a bargain, that Kṛṣṇa is assuring, therefore I will have to serve Kṛṣṇa. That even I will go to hell, it doesn’t matter. That is my duty. Kṛṣṇa is assuring, that is all right, but even, some reason or Kṛṣṇa doesn’t drive me, its still I shall do.

Siddha-svarūpa: If I don’t do that, it means imperfection in love then.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Siddha-svarūpa: I’m still self-centered.

Prabhupāda: That, that is taught by Caitanya Mahāprabhu:

aśliṣya vā pāda-ratāṁ pinastu māṁ

marma-hatāṁ karotu vā

(CC Antya 20.47)

Kṛṣṇa whatever you like . . . (indistinct) . . . still I cannot give up . . . (indistinct) . . . to make bargain with Kṛṣṇa, then you are not a pure devotee.

Siddha-svarūpa: Actually, the spiritual world is that dimension where that pure love exists.

Prabhupāda: Yes. There is no bargaining. Oh if Kṛṣṇa does it, then I shall do it. That is business.

Siddha-svarūpa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That is not love. Let Kṛṣṇa do whatever He likes. But Kṛṣṇa says no, if you do, then you are surely coming to Me. Then where is the doubt? Do sincerely whatever you are asked to do through the spiritual master, through Kṛṣṇa personally, that is your . . . what will be the result or not result, I don’t know. That is pure.

Siddha-svarūpa: Actually, even in the Bible it mentions that purity in one verse. There is the statement that we would rather be away from this body and at home with the Lord. We would rather be out of this body and at and at home with the Lord, but even if we are in this body, away from the Lord or at home with the Lord, our only ambition should be to please Him.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is pure.

Siddha-svarūpa: Yes. Whereas in the previous statement there was still a tinge of desire for liberation from pain, freedom from the body, then in the next statement he says, but our only ambition should be, whether at home or, or in the body or whatever, that our only ambition should be to please Him.

Prabhupāda: That is in the bhāgavata also.

Siddha-svarūpa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam (SB 1.2.13). The perfection is whether you have pleased Kṛṣṇa. That is perfection. Either this body or that body, here or there, it doesn’t matter. Whether Kṛṣṇa is pleased. That you have to see. So if Kṛṣṇa is pleased through the spiritual master, so if spiritual master is pleased, Kṛṣṇa is pleased. Because he is confidential servant. If the servant says, yes this man is nice, then Kṛṣṇa will accept him.

Siddha-svarūpa: So then if my, my happiness, or my questioning should not be whether or not . . .

Prabhupāda: You have to strictly carry out faithfully.

Siddha-svarūpa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: . . . the orders of Kṛṣṇa and spiritual master, without any consideration.

Siddha-svarūpa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Then that is perfection. And if you make your own idea, the spiritual master is not so intelligent, I am more than intelligent, I can do like this, then you are doomed. yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādo. As soon as we manufacture, concoct, then . . . (indistinct)

Siddha-svarūpa: So then the relationship isn’t one of trying to gain something from my spiritual master, and worrying that in the future I will be able to gain . . .

Prabhupāda: He has given you already.

Siddha-svarūpa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: The gain is that now you carry out.

Siddha-svarūpa: Simply a, a, a matter . . .

Prabhupāda: Initiation means he has given this.

Siddha-svarūpa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Now you carry out the order.

Siddha-svarūpa: So then whether the relationship is eternal in my heart will be, depend upon whether or not I am desirous of pleasing him.

Prabhupāda: That now you have got this relationship, that's all, eternal, not eternal. Why do you bother about this, all this? I have to do. This is my duty. That's all.

Govinda dasi: I’m trying to ask this question because this is the question that I discussed with Goursundar, and that I was bewildered.

Prabhupāda: Goursundar, what does he know?

Govinda dasi: Enough to confuse me.

Prabhupāda: He is a rascal. Why should discuss with Goursundar? He is a perfect man? Then why should you discuss with him? He is a rascal.

Govinda dasi: Because he was saying that my attitude is very, is . . .

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Govinda dasi: . . . sentimental. Because he was telling me that, that my faith is a sentimental thing. I was trying to understand that from a philosophical point of view in order to defend it.

Prabhupāda: So, what philosophy does he know? Why should you ask Goursundar? What does he know? If he has little intelligence, then you would not have given up Kṛṣṇa consciousness. He has no intelligence. He is a rascal. Mūḍhāḥ. That is our conclusion. Anyone who is not fully surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, he is a mūḍhāḥ, he is duṣkṛtino, sinful, narādhamāḥ, lowest of the mankind. This is our conclusion. That is the complaint of all other . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughing) We are, all of them we are taking them as mūḍhāḥ, rascal, narādhamāḥ, and they are posing themselves as very big important man in their society. And because they have no Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we are accepting them as mūḍhāḥ. That is their concept. So they are all rejected by this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. That is their complaint. They are trying to make a so-called mutual present society. You are welcome.

Siddha-svarūpa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: But we are saying nobody is right except Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So, that has become their concept. Everybody is a rascal . . . (indistinct) . . . that is their concern. This, preaching goes on, then . . . (indistinct)

Siddha-svarūpa: Thank you.

Govinda dasi: Thank you. (offers obeisances)

Devotees: (Background exchange)

Prabhupāda: Now, They are influenced by rubber tree.

Govinda dasi: Wow.

Prabhupāda: I have seen it. So many rubber trees. They have got rubber trees, extensive. This exploitation is forbidden in the Īśopaniṣad. Mā gṛdhaḥ kasya svid dhanam (ISO 1). So, all over the world, especially in the eastern world, the, oil in the beginning of the eastern world . . .

Siddha-svarūpa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: . . . or in, in the, in the eastern world, not in the western world. Where is that? They have made a line, international?

Siddha-svarūpa: Oh, I don’t know where it begins. Some . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Somewhere . . . (indistinct) . . . you get, crossing that line you will get one day advantage. So, anyway, this is the eastern part.

Siddha-svarūpa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Up to America, mainland, it is western. This Hawaii and Japan, South Pacific, they are all eastern.

Siddha-svarūpa: The, in Southeast Asia the . . . they are finding out that one of the main reasons the Americans wanted to stay in Vietnam was because there's the vast oil that is offshore from Vietnam. Right offshore in Vietnam there's vast oil reserves that the American oil companies had already spent, they had invested millions and millions of dollars in setting up oil rigs and they had to all leave. Not only oil, but different types of trees, and, what is the underground products, mining, different, different things that was there. That there were big companies that were involved, big American companies that were involved in trying to make . . . (indistinct) . . . even they wanted tourism. In the future, they are hoping to be able to have hotels in Vietnam, to exploit in that way.

Prabhupāda: They make big, big hotels in the Philippines.

Siddha-svarūpa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Now they left.

Siddha-svarūpa: Yes.

Govinda dasi: So, the whole world is, is being pushed by big business then?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Siddha-svarūpa: That the Vietnam war was primarily desired by the big corporations. They wanted Vietnam to exploit in that way. Also they made money simply from there being a war. If there was no war, they would be unemployed. That in America's . . .

Prabhupāda: That means the American people in order to make money, war material, they engage their men to kill.

Siddha-svarūpa: Yes. Otherwise there is no movement of the economy.

Govinda dasi: They kill their sons for big business?

Siddha-svarūpa: Well, the, the economy doesn’t move. It's like you have to have people working, so they, they, they, they have them producing something which is consumable, and there's nothing more consumable than a bomb or a helicopter, so that they produce thousands of helicopters and bombs. Just like now, they’re producing jets. Here's France, produces a particular kind of jet, and America produces a particular type of jet, and Belgium is going, needs to buy some jets, so the American producers, American companies and the French companies they are fighting, trying to convince the Belgians. There's somebody to buy our jet, and then the whole, there's a whole business trying to sell different war, war materials to all these other countries now. And they are hoping, of course the businessmen are hoping that they’ll use them up and buy new ones. So, they, they, they need to have small wars.

Prabhupāda: So, you have seen the, the other, big island, they are producing sugar?

Siddha-svarūpa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: The same thing you have seen, in Fiji . . .

Siddha-svarūpa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: . . . they do not require. First of all produce your own food. No. They are not interested.

Siddha-svarūpa: Hm.

Prabhupāda: The capitalists, they take the land. They want the business, that unnecessary. Here also they are producing pineapple more than necessary.

Siddha-svarūpa: Much more.

Prabhupāda: They are wasting the land. People should be satisfied, first of all, producing his necessities, that they will produce, nothing more. Whatever they require. But if, as soon as a third party, capitalist, becomes interested, he will induce them to produce unnecessary things, and necessary things will stop.

Siddha-svarūpa: Yes. Actually, this is a, this is a, it's being recognized. In fact, one congress, a congressman, I read, had an article and was asking, was actually saying that the entire western way of life is in jeopardy, that it is, it is a dangerous point, because our entire economic system is based upon the, the production and consumption of unnecessary objects.

Prabhupāda: That's right.

Siddha-svarūpa: They make some object, and then they make a commercial and tell them you want this, and the people they get it.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And when he is induced, they offer them money, they requested that television, he shall have to pay.

Siddha-svarūpa: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: Expense.

Siddha-svarūpa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: He doesn’t require, neither he has got money, so there is advertisement, television is very good, he is induced, and the bank says yes you can take money, so he becomes perpetual debtor.

Siddha-svarūpa: That's right.

Prabhupāda: So, he has to work. He cannot sit down. He has to go, so, so, so, so, so.

Siddha-svarūpa: He has no choice.

Prabhupāda: Where is freedom?

Siddha-svarūpa: They are speaking of freedom, ha.

Prabhupāda: Simply exploit.

Siddha-svarūpa: Yes. They actually are saying that they want the freedom to exploit, and if there is a government where there is no freedom to exploit, they will be unhappy. They will not be able to enjoy life as much.

Devotee (3): It's another way of keeping the people subjugated. (break)

Siddha-svarūpa: . . . matter.

Devotee (3): There's a famous lady atheist, who, who makes her, who makes her business by defeating theists. She travels from place to place, and gives . . .

Prabhupāda: Whether she will come here?

Devotee (3): I’ve forgotten her name.

Siddha-svarūpa: Madeline Murray.

Govinda dasi: Madeline Murray.

Siddha-svarūpa: Madeline Murray.

Govinda dasi: She's a demon.

Siddha-svarūpa: She, she's the one who pushed very strongly against prayer in school.

Prabhupāda: So, why, why, why not come here and stop ours?

Siddha-svarūpa: If she could, she probably would try to.

Govinda dasi: She is mean.

Prabhupāda: Then she will be trying for . . . that we are praying, so you come and stop our praying. by your reason and . . . (indistinct)

Siddha-svarūpa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: We are inviting.

Siddha-svarūpa: That would be a great meet, meeting.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Siddha-svarūpa: She's, she must be really puffed up by now.

Prabhupāda: But why she does not come to us, if she is traveling?

Siddha-svarūpa: She's concerned mainly with Christianity. Her concern is Christianity.

Prabhupāda: Her, her challenge is about God.

Siddha-svarūpa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So . . . (indistinct) . . . that somebody dares to convince that there is no God. Why not invite?

Govinda dasi: She is very offensive.

Prabhupāda: What is her philosophy? She has no book?

Siddha-svarūpa: Her philosophy, no, her philosophy is that there is no God, and that . . .

Prabhupada: She has written any book?

Siddha-svarūpa: Probably.

Govinda dasi: She's, I’ve never read any book, but I’ve read about her.

Siddha-svarūpa: Probably she's written a book, and the idea, she simply, somehow or other by words defeats.

Devotee (3): Her, her appearances, it becomes an art, that's all.

Siddha-svarūpa: Yeah.

Devotee (2): But she uses foul language and . . .

Siddha-svarūpa: Yeah, she's very gross.

Govinda dasi: She's very gross.

Devotee: Offensive, very offensive.

Govinda dasi: Very offensive, just like, offensive to . . .

Prabhupāda: So, why not defeat her? You are also philosopher.

DDevotee (2): She's . . .

Prabhupāda: You have learned so much. Defeat her.

Siddha-svarūpa: (laughing) Like hit her over the head.

Govinda dasi: (laughing) She's really, she's really a gross lady. She's, she curses and calls . . .

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . what education you will give.

Siddha-svarūpa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: You call her. Come here. We shall talk with you.

Siddha-svarūpa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: This is, this is the real business.

Siddha-svarūpa: Yes. She, she's . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Malati, yourself, Malati also . . . (indistinct)

Govinda dasi: Malati?

Prabhupāda: Yes, she can argue very nicely. Syamasundara's wife.

Govinda dasi: She's in India still?

Prabhupāda: She is in Europe.

Govinda dasi: Oh, I heard she has a Sankirtana Party, on traveling . . .

Prabhupāda: Or Yamuna. Let, let her argue with our girl students. If the girls are defeated then the next . . . if they are defeated, then they can do. I think our girl, girl students will be sufficient, defeat.

Govinda dasi: I know my position as an agnostic was very miserable, and the one thing that I was so impressed when I first met you was that there is God.

Prabhupāda: There, therefore our students, they, they have found life in Kṛṣṇa.

Govinda dasi: Yes. That's . . .

Prabhupāda: Your study is perfect. You are realizing the, the value of life. Now, those who have come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness they have found, yes there is . . . (indistinct)

Govinda dasi: I can remember, I was just thinking, I was overjoyed to find out there's a God after all, and there's someone who can tell me about it. But a lot of times people just don’t have that, and they become disillusioned, and therefore they become atheists.

Prabhupāda: We have got typical example, God, Kṛṣṇa. (break)

Siddha-svarūpa: We never make the offense of saying the spiritual master is God. It is a great offense. So, we understand the spiritual master is not omnipresent like Kṛṣṇa, yet, this is my understanding, nonetheless I offer my prasādam, my obeisances, every day to you no matter where I am in the world.

Prabhupāda: So, while you go on serving spiritual master, then you will get . . .

Siddha-svarūpa: But this brahmacārī has heard and understood that you are omnipresent, and I have heard, from my understanding, that you are not omnipresent like Kṛṣṇa. So now there's two, of course, the matter, the fact of the matter is, that we offer you our prasādam. That is the most, that's of course the important thing. You take our service, what little it is, and bring it to Kṛṣṇa. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . omnipresent, through . . . (indistinct) . . . Kṛṣṇa is omnipresent. So, the servant knows the master's . . . (indistinct) . . . master, He is omnipresent, and he is, the servant, he takes the knowledge from Him. Just like the magistrate, he judges by taking witness, so we can with Kṛṣṇa. He is omnipresent, so if Kṛṣṇa informs him, because he is His confidential servant, this man is doing this, so he is everywhere. He reveals . . . (indistinct)

Siddha-svarūpa: I, I . . .

Prabhupāda: Not that I require personally to be omnipresent, but Kṛṣṇa is omnipresent, and I am Kṛṣṇa's servant, so He can inform me. That this is, this man is doing this. So therefore, conclusion is he also is omnipresent. Just like we are talking of moon and . . . (indistinct) . . . I gave them proof, but I am talking on the basis of my spiritual master, my guru . . . (indistinct) . . . he is talking on the basis of his guru, his guru, his guru, this is called paramparā. So, ultimate guru is Kṛṣṇa. So naturally if Kṛṣṇa is omnipresent, the servants are also. What is the difficulty?

Siddha-svarūpa: Part of my answer, you can criticize, was that . . .

Prabhupāda: So, this is the basic principle. Now you can answer in differant ways. Kṛṣṇa is omnipresent, and guru is His confidential servant. Therefore, all information comes to him by the grace of Kṛṣṇa. Personally doesn’t require to be omnipresent. There is no question, but because he is confidential servant of Kṛṣṇa, therefore automatically he is informed everything. kintu prabhor yaḥ priya eva tasya. That is a fact. Did you not see that. Therefore he is as good as Kṛṣṇa. He knows everything through Kṛṣṇa, therefore he is as good as, but he is not as good as Kṛṣṇa. This is called, inconceivable one and different.

Siddha-svarūpa: I have given that answer, but, but I was perplexed that I have heard it, there was another . . . (pause)

Prabhupāda: Just another?

Siddha-svarūpa: Another view. There was two. I, it appeared as if there were two viewpoints. He would say one thing, and I would say another, but actually acintya-bheda . . .

Prabhupāda: This is the real answer. That a servant cannot be as good as the master, but the master, if he takes a servant as confidential, then he is as good as.

Siddha-svarūpa: That is the meaning of confidential.

Prabhupāda: Yes. If somebody is very confidential, I can disclose all the secrets.

Siddha-svarūpa: He places his confidence in the servant.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Govinda dasi: It seems that I remember you once saying that if one, if you follow the instructions of guru, if you following instructions of the spiritual master, he can be present in your heart. He will be present, remain present in your heart always. Is this correct?

Prabhupāda: His, everything will be revealed to him. tasyaite kathitāḥ hy arthāḥ prakāśante mahātmanaḥ (ŚU 6.23), all these śāstra will be revealed to follower. yasya deve parā bhaktir.

Govinda dasi: Principle of guru is within one's heart through Kṛṣṇa, or is it that the personality, you, as our spiritual master, remain always with us if we are following your instructions?

Prabhupāda: Yes. We are singing daily that, daily singing, you do not understand. guru-mukha-padma-vākya, āra nā kariha mane. And daily singing . . . (indistinct) . . . what is that singing? Do you know that?

Devotee (3): No.

Siddha-svarūpa: They have just start(ed), I didn’t learn that until I came to LA.

Prabhupāda: First . . . (indistinct)

Siddha-svarūpa: That song book?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Siddha-svarūpa: Might be with Śruta-kirtī . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: This is the business of the disciple.

Siddha-svarūpa: Do you have the . . .

Prabhupāda: You believe, you have to believe it, that spiritual master is omnipotent, then how he can defy the orders of spiritual master? That is the system.

Siddha-svarūpa: The..

Prabhupāda: He will defy the spiritual master's order because he knows that he is not omnipotent.

Siddha-svarūpa: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: That he has no faith.

Siddha-svarūpa: It's uh, the difficulty for people is how to appreciate that the servant of God is . . .

Prabhupāda: As good as God.

Siddha-svarūpa: . . . is as good as God, and yet still not . . .

Prabhupāda: God.

Siddha-svarūpa: God is dominator, yeah.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Siddha-svarūpa: And so they always want to, we want to see it as either or, either you are God or you’re not God.

Prabhupāda: Therefore it is said, as good as God.

Siddha-svarūpa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Not directly says he is God.

Siddha-svarūpa: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: As good as.

Govinda dasi: I don’t understand this very well, because this is what the, what the, the argument that I had with Goursundar recently.

Prabhupāda: So this is duty.

Govinda dasi: I mean, when I would speak of our spiritual master, the only way by which we can attain pure devotional service.

Prabhupāda: Hm.

Govinda dasi: I bow to his lotus feet with great awe and reverence. By his grace one can cross the ocean of material . . .

Prabhupāda: You read the original.

Govinda dasi:

śrī-guru-carana-padma, kevala bhakati-sadma,

bando mui sāvadhāna mate

jāhāra prasāde bhāi, e bha va toriyā jāi,

krṣṇa-prāpti hoy jāhā hāte.

Prabhupāda: The translation.

Govinda dasi: The lotus feet of our spiritual master are the only way by which we can attain pure devotional service. I bow to his lotus feet with great awe and reverence. By his grace one can cross the ocean of material suffering and obtain the mercy of Kṛṣṇa.

guru-mukha-padma-vākya, cittete koriyā aikya,

ār nā koriho mane āśāśrī-guru-caraṇe rati, ei se uttama gati,

je prasāde pure sarva āśā.

My only wish is to have my consciousness purified by the words emanating from his lotus mouth. Attachment to his lotus feet is the perfection that fulfills all desires.

cakhu-dān dilo jei, janme janme prabhu sei, divya jñān . . .

Prabhupāda: ār nā koriho mane āśā, this is not translated.

Govinda dasi: cakhu-dān dilo jei . . .

Prabhupāda: No, the previous, ār nā koriho mane . . .

Govinda dasi: janme janme prabhu sei . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no, before that.

Siddha-svarūpa: The other verse you just read, there was one line, he says it's not translated.

Govinda dasi: je prasāde, which one. I don’t know.

Siddha-svarūpa: The last one of, read the . . .

Govinda dasi: The last line? śrī-guru-caraṇe rati, ei se uttama gati, je prasāde pure sarva āśā?

Prabhupāda: Hm. What is it? Read the translation. My only wish is to have my consciousness purified by the words emanating from his lotus mouth. Attachment to his lotus feet is the perfection that fulfills all desires.

Prabhupāda: Ār, that ār nā koriho is not covered. I am not, don’t expect anything. ār nā koriho, ār means anything else.

Govinda dasi: My only wish.

Prabhupāda: That's all . . . (indistinct)

Siddha-svarūpa: Comes, seems to come to a matter of faith in the, in other words, if I am still . . .

Prabhupāda: Faith is a beginning. Ādau śraddhā.

Siddha-svarūpa: The, the prayer was, my only wish. That means then if there's no wish for sense gratification or salvation . . .

Prabhupāda: No wish. Simply you have to carry out the order.

Siddha-svarūpa: So then that means that the primary cause of any agitation or disturbance within myself concerning my spiritual master, doubt is, must be coming from the desire for salvation or sense gratification.

Prabhupāda: Salvation is also sense gratification.

Siddha-svarūpa: Yes. So I’m worrying that I will not be saved. So that I am concerned . . .

Prabhupāda: Salvation desirable, salvation is also sense gratification. There is some demand.

Siddha-svarūpa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That pure devotee has no demand. Only to serve. That is devotee. He has no such demand.

Siddha-svarūpa: So then he's not in anxiety whether or not . . .

Prabhupāda: Why there should be anxiety? He has no demand, therefore he is peaceful. Kṛṣṇa-bhakta-niṣkāma, ataeva 'śānta. Why Kṛṣṇa-bhakta is very peaceful? Because he has no demand. Why there should be demand? They simply satisfied with the service. That is devotee.

Siddha-svarūpa: Whereas . . .

Prabhupāda: Everyone has demand. The karmīs they are seeking after comfortable condition. All these karmīs they are struggling, there is demand. This life comfortable, and those who will believe in next life, then they want to go the heavenly planets. So, they have got demands.

Siddha-svarūpa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: karmīs, jñānīs. That they want to become one, want to become one with the Supreme. That they also demand. Big demand.

Siddha-svarūpa: They want to be free from pain.

Prabhupāda: Oh yes. They are also trying to get released from this painful condition, karma. So, but so they try hard by doing this, doing that to become happy, when they fail, then they want to . . .

Siddha-svarūpa: Cease to exist.

Prabhupāda: Yes. To become one . . . (indistinct) . . . foremost enjoyer. And yogīs also. They want to show generally material power. There is demand to become very prominent. Oh, this yogīs can . . . (indistinct) . . . he can do this, he can do that. That is . . . (indistinct) . . . of everyone. So, everyone has got, karmīs, jnanis. Only pure devotees, they are, they are simply satisfied to carry out the orders of Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) . . . therefore, they have no demands . . . (indistinct) . . . and anyone who is wanting something predominance, materially or spiritually, they are not pure devotee. They are impure.

Siddha-svarūpa: That means that I still have the des . . . where I am the most important person in my life . . .

Prabhupāda: That where is Paramahaṁsa.

Govinda dasi: Um.

Siddha-svarūpa: Where I am the most important person in my life rather than Kṛṣṇa. As long as I am the most important person . . .

Prabhupāda: No, I cannot be important, but I want to become important by utilizing Kṛṣṇa.

Siddha-svarūpa: Yes, that's right. That I’m seeing Him as a supplier for me, to supply me with . . .

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa, for my business is, that Kṛṣṇa wants this, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65), and sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁśaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). Kṛṣṇa wants this, so our main business is to request people that you surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Whatever Kṛṣṇa says, you do it. That is our business. Kṛṣṇa wants it, so we are canvassing. Not that I will become as important as Kṛṣṇa. That is our business. My business is to serve. Where he is?

Govinda dasi: He was eating, and he's . . .

Prabhupāda: Oh, he is eating?

Govinda dasi: . . . washing his mouth, and coming.

Prabhupāda: All right, eating, that's all right. (pause) That is pure.

Siddha-svarūpa: So isn’t, is . . .

Prabhupāda: So I, each pure devotee does not care what is going to happen to him.

Siddha-svarūpa: Yeah, true.

Prabhupāda: Doesn’t matter to him. I must carry the order of my spiritual master. That's all. This is pure. Just like I can carry. When my spiritual master asked me to do this, let me go out, I never expected that it will be so successful . . . never expected, because all my previous godbrothers and all the svāmīs, they could not do anything. Ah, so you have taken your food?

Paramahaṁsa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Where is our Śruta-kīrti?

Paramahaṁsa: He's just finishing.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Paramahaṁsa: He's just finishing, prasādam.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Paramahaṁsa: We usually leave in a few minutes.

Prabhupāda: That a, I mean to say when they ask question, I speak, you should also come. Is, is it for, only for them, not for you?

Paramahaṁsa: I can come, but I usually do my work during this time . . .

Prabhupāda: That's . . .

Paramahaṁsa: . . . 'cause you're, I can’t type when you’re taking rest, so I usually type, do all the typing this time, and we just started taking prasādam early.

Prabhupāda: If you are busy that is another thing.

Paramahaṁsa: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: If you are not busy, you should take advantage.

Paramahaṁsa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Śruta-kīrti does not type.

Paramahaṁsa: No, he could come.

Siddha-svarūpa: This eagerness to come in when you are talking with someone is, is all right to take advantage of?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee (2): That's nice.

Devotee: (laughs) Sometimes we are, we go. I, I think . . .

Prabhupāda: There is no secret talk. It is all for everyone.

Siddha-svarūpa: Jaya.

Prabhupāda: If I don’t talk, that is another thing. When I talk, hear. So, except pure devotee, everyone is sense gratification. He wants something to satisfy his senses. This is . . .

Siddha-svarūpa: So then my doubts spring up, I am doubting that my spiritual master will be able to satisfy my salvation or sense gratification.

Prabhupāda: Some way or other . . .

Siddha-svarūpa: Yeah I am . . .

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . everyone is trying to satisfy. That is the material disease.

Siddha-svarūpa: That I am the center of my life, rather than Kṛṣṇa. I am better, that I . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no question of better. You are never better.

Devotee: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Think . . . (indistinct) . . . like that.

Siddha-svarūpa: No, but in my mind I may be thinking that I am . . .

Prabhupāda: No, at least let me become Kṛṣṇa. That the Māyāvādī, they want to become one with God, and at this side they have failed to become as powerful as Kṛṣṇa. Now they are thinking, by perfection I shall become as good as. That is . . . (indistinct) . . . he never thinks that I cannot become so perfect that I becomes one with God. That is . . . (indistinct) . . . that is Māyāvādī. He is such a foolish, that if I am as good as God, then how I have become dog? But he has no sense. God never, never becomes. They, they say also that God becomes dog. Dog is God, and He is, it is His pastime. He is playing like dog.

Siddha-svarūpa: Hm.

Prabhupāda: That is the Vivekananda, daridra-nārāyaṇa. Nārāyaṇa is playing the part of a daridra. So these things are going on. These rascals.

Siddha-svarūpa: But if Kṛṣṇa desires to play the pastime of anything, He never forgets.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Devotee: If He, if He does desire to play the pastime . . .

Prabhupāda: Whether he desires or not desires, how do you know?

Siddha-svarūpa: I was thinking of Varāha.

Prabhupāda: That is the thing. Varāha is not ordinary pig.

Siddha-svarūpa: No.

Prabhupāda: So why you nonsensical think that Varāha is as good as a pig?

Siddha-svarūpa: No.

Prabhupāda: This is nonsense. He is not a stool-eater pig. He looked like, Varāha, a gigantic boar, to lift this world, so why you are thinking Varāha was a pig? That is offense. Because He has assumed this form of a pig, a big boar, does it mean that He is boar?

Siddha-svarūpa: No.

Prabhupāda: Then? (pause) This Māyāvāda philosophy very dangerous. They are the first class atheist.

Paramahaṁsa: What's the difference between a brahmavādī and a Māyāvādī?

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Paramahaṁsa: What is the difference between a Brahmavādī and a Māyāvādī?

Prabhupāda: Māyāvādī thinks that Kṛṣṇa is also māyā. That is theory.

Paramahaṁsa: And the Brahma . . .

Prabhupāda: Because, because the, actually the same thing, that brahman is impersonal. The origin, the Absolute is impersonal, but when He comes as person, He accepts a material form.

Siddha-svarūpa: So it's the same.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Siddha-svarūpa: It's the same, same philosophy.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is māyā.

Paramahaṁsa: So Brahmavādī and Māyāvādī, there's no difference at all?

Prabhupāda: Practically there is no difference.

Paramahaṁsa: Uh, what the Brahmavādī . . .

Prabhupāda: Brahmavādī also does not believe in the personal identity of Kṛṣṇa. And the Māyāvādīsays yes, He comes sometimes as person, but He accepts the material form. That is māyā.

Paramahaṁsa: So the Brahmavādī is also big offender, just like the Māyāvādī.

Prabhupāda: No. Brahmavādī is less intelligent. They do not go further than brahman realization. But these people they think, actually there is no difference. Only difference is that, that they think brahman is final, and that is Māyāvādī too.

Paramahaṁsa: But the Māyāvādīs also, they think like that also.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Paramahaṁsa: So uh . . .

Prabhupāda: So take it as one. What does it matter?

Siddha-svarūpa: What is the, why discriminate?

Paramahaṁsa: Well it seems like there's a different type of, there seems like there's two varieties of impersonalists. One is . . .

Prabhupāda: What is that variety?

Paramahaṁsa: Oh one is a demon, practically, because he is such a . . .

Prabhupāda: Why is actual demon?

Paramahaṁsa: Because he is so offensive, he is directly denying the Personality of Godhead existing.

Prabhupāda: But he may not know it. He has no advancement of knowledge, so why do you call him demon?

Paramahaṁsa: Well usually that because Lord Caitanya says that if you even hear what they have to say, then your whole spiritual life can be ruined.

Prabhupāda: That is Māyāvādī. That is . . . (indistinct) . . . Māyāvādi-bhāṣya śunile haya sarva nāśa (CC Madhya 6.169).

Paramahaṁsa: But there are some impersonalists who become great devotees.

Prabhupāda: Well that is simply the same difference. The stool's upper side and lower side. That's all. If you say the upper side of the stool is very good, the lower side is not so good. So no difference.

Paramahaṁsa: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: So, it is not good. Neither acceptable. Either the Māyāvada or this, this brahmavāda.

Paramahaṁsa: The, the reason I was asking about that, because in one purport in the Gītā, you say that if one has no opportunity to meet a pure devotee of the Lord and take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then perhaps impersonal practice is better, or not better, but better than nothing.

Prabhupāda: Yes. At least they are accepting spirit. Just like this Śaṅkarācārya says, brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā, they come to the platform of truth. Spirit is the truth. It is the basic principle. So permanent or nonpermanent. Material means nonpermanent. Spiritual means permanent. So that means they come to the spiritual platform. Light, just like the sunlight. That this is better than darkness, but because you are in the sunlight does not mean you are in the sun. The sun is there, so you have come to the sunlight, that it does not mean that you have reached the sun planet, or the sun god. But it is better than the darkness. To remain in darkness, that is very troublesome.

Paramahaṁsa: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: So in comparison to the darkness, the sunlight is better.

Paramahaṁsa: course . . .

Prabhupāda: That the sunlight does not mean that you are in the sun globe, or you are seeing the sun god. In this way try to understand.

Paramahaṁsa: But in . . .

Prabhupāda: Light is better than darkness. Material conception of life, that is most ignorant, most fallen condition. So, those who have come to brahma-jñāna, they are better than these rascals, those who are completely blind.

Paramahaṁsa: But then it becomes very difficult for them to accept devotional service, if they’re in that . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Paramahaṁsa: . . . Māyāvādī . . .

Prabhupāda: That, that therefore they, they require the association of a devotee.

Paramahaṁsa: That another part, in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta it says that the, actually the gross materialists are better than the Māyāvādīs. They are more sincere than the Māyāvādīs.

Prabhupāda: Because they sometimes defy Kṛṣṇa and fall down. Therefore they fall down. They are innocent. They want bodily comfort, that's all. They do not commit any offense.

Paramahaṁsa: The gross materialist?

Prabhupāda: Yes. They are after bodily comfort.

Paramahaṁsa: But the Māyāvādīs have opportunity?

Prabhupāda: Māyāvādīs they are defying, that Kṛṣṇa, they are thinking, I am as good as Kṛṣṇa. So that is very offensive.

Siddha-svarūpa: Whereas the gross materialists aren’t thinking of Kṛṣṇa at all.

Prabhupāda: Ah. So, even they are aware that the Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) . . . not interested, we want our car, eating. They do not commit offense. Rather they chant Kṛṣṇa, "Oh, Kṛṣṇa is so powerful, that"s all right.’ That is also good. They are not interested in Kṛṣṇa, but if they say, "Oh, Kṛṣṇa is like that", so that is good for them. But these rascals they are claiming, "We are as good as Kṛṣṇa". That is great offense. Kṛṣṇa aparādha. Purposeful. They do not know about Kṛṣṇa, so therefore not so aparādha. They say: "All right, Kṛṣṇa is very good, that"s a fact, but we are not interested. We are interested with our car and skyscraper buildings. You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.’ And if he is good it's all right. They are not so offensive. But these rascals are claiming, "Kṛṣṇa and myself the same".

Paramahaṁsa: So better if they remain gross materialists than become a Māyāvādī.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore it is said the gross materialism is better than Māyāvādī. They are speculator, therefore he is . . . (indistinct) . . . he is a rascal. Then defy these arguments. (end)