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'''Prabhupāda:'''So, Baha’i faith, what is the objective of the Baha’i faith?
'''Prabhupāda:''' Shall I address you as father?


'''John:''' The objective? We are all the universal commonwealth of nations. We are all flowers in one garden.
'''Father Simon:''' I’m Father Simon, yes.


'''Prabhupāda:'''[to Ranchor:] You come here. What does he say?
'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes.


'''Ranchor:''' Well he’s been explaining to me that Baha’i, or Baha’u’llah who is the founder of the Baha’i faith, he synthesized all the teachings of the persons he called the nine great teachers, of whom Kṛṣṇa is included within those nine, and he synthesised these teachings to present to the world the recognised way of living peacefully on the world for God realisation for the next 25,000 years. Each 25,000 years presuming a new teaching is given for that period of time. And...  
'''Father Simon:''' This is Brother Roger.


'''Prabhupāda:'''What is the ultimate goal?
'''Prabhupāda:''' So father’s father. Father has got a father? Is it not?


'''John:''' The ultimate goal? God realisation of the infinite oneness of man.
'''Father Simon:''' Yes (laughs).


'''Ranchor:''' He has explained to me that he has experienced what he considers to be Brahman, but that he knows… He has experienced what he considers to be Brahman. But, he knows that there’s something beyond that.
'''Prabhupāda:''' So let us go. I am father, I have got my father, my father has got father. In this way, who is the ultimate father? There must be one ultimate father. Because I have got my father, my father has got father. So you go on, it does not mean that on the tenth generation or twentieth generation I could not see the father. That does not mean there was no father. There must have—a father.


'''Prabhupāda:'''You have realised it like that? That Brahma, that Brahma?
Therefore, originally, there is the Supreme Father, and your Christian religion recognizes God as the Father. You pray “oh Father”. So, our experience is that I am also father, my father is also father but we are all persons. Therefore, the original Father, the beginning Father—He must be a person. What is your opinion? He cannot be impersonal. Do you agree or not?


'''Ranchor:''' Brahman yes.
'''Father Simon:''' Ah, yes, we believe in…


Prabhupäda:You have used this? Brahma is a Sanskrit word.
'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes.


'''John:''' I didn’t use this word, no. Because a word… An experience to me is an experience, a word is… Like an apple out there, until you experience the apple, you never know the flavour, until you experience, an experience it remains a word.
'''Father Simon:''' God as person, yeh quite.


'''Prabhupāda:'''So that means you have experienced what is God?
'''Prabhupāda:''' So, father is controller. Father controls me, I am son. My father controls me, father controls the family. Therefore, in a small jurisdiction the father is the controller. Similarly, his father he is also controller, the Supreme Father is the Supreme Controller. That is Vedic version:


'''John:''' I wouldn’t like to say that what I experienced was God.
:īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ
:sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ
:(Brahma-saṁhitā 5.1)


'''Ranchor:''' He says he experienced the light, the divine light, but that he knows that is not the complete experience. He knows he must search further. But he considers, or Baha’u’llah taught, that God himself is unknowable.
The Supreme Father is Kṛṣṇa. All controller. Sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ—His form is not like us, His form is eternal, full of knowledge, full of bliss.


'''Prabhupāda:'''Unknowable?
So why I am being the son of the same Father by descendance—why my body is not like Him? My body is not eternal, I have to give up this body. My body is full of ignorance. There is no knowledge, I do not know what is going on within my body. Still, I claim it is my body. I eat but I do not know how the eatables turn into so many secretions, turn into blood, into urine, into so many things.


'''Ranchor:''' Unknowable?
They are divided, the big mechanical process is going on. But I do not know exactly. And when there is some disturbance in the metabolism of the function of the bodily machine, I go to the doctor because I do not know. So, therefore, I am full of ignorance—my body.


'''Prabhupāda:'''Then why should we try to realize it?
And sac-cid-ānanda: sat means “eternal”; cit means “full of knowledge”; and ānanda means “full of bliss.” So, this body is full of miseries. It is not blissful. Apart from all other miserable conditions, we have to meet death, which we do not want. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā:


'''John:''' Try to realize it.
:janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-
:duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam
:(BG 13.9)


'''Prabhupāda:'''No, if it is unknowable, then what is the use of attempting to know Him?
You may be very proud of your advancement of knowledge. But the main problems of life—birth, death, old age, and disease—there is no remedy. You have not discovered any remedy for this miserable condition. Therefore, my body is temporary, it is full of ignorance, it is full of miseries.


'''Ranchor:''' He has not answered that question.
God’s body is eternal, full of knowledge, and full of pleasure. This is the distinction between God and myself. Otherwise, God is also a living being—supreme living being. I am also living being. That is stated in the Vedas:


'''Prabhupāda:'''That should be clear. If God is unknowable, then why should we attempt to know Him?
:nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām
:(Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13)


'''John:''' Well, at this present moment, at this juncture in my [indistinct] life, I felt, God, personally, is unknowable.
God is the supreme eternal, among the other eternals—other eternals who are the living entities. We are also eternal. You do not die after the destruction of the body:


'''Prabhupāda:'''[to Ranchor:] He realised God?
:na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre
:(BG 2.20)


'''Ranchor:''' No, he doesn’t claim to have realised God.
So, because we are now in the conditional stage of material life, we are undergoing this birth, death, old age, and disease. Otherwise, we are as good as Kṛṣṇa or God, we have got our spiritual body which is now covered.


'''Prabhupāda:'''But one side you say that God cannot be realised.
Now, our main business is how to become aloof from this conditional life. That is our main business in human life. We should not act in such a way that we become more conditioned. Just like a prisoner in the prison house—his business is how to finish that period of punishment and go out of the prison. Not to increase more entanglement so that he will continue prison life again, again, again.


'''John:''' I didn’t say this.
So that people do not understand—they are trying to be happy in the prison house, which is impossible. Prison house is never meant for happiness. It is meant for giving distress to the criminals so that he may come to his senses. But unfortunately, they are making association, combination to become happy in the prison house. That is their ignorance.


'''Prabhupāda:'''He said unknowable?
In the prison house, in the material world, there is no possibility of happiness. Therefore, the aim should be to go back to home, back to Godhead. That is the main business of human beings—especially because in the animal life it is not possible. They cannot make any progress of spiritual life. But in the human life also, if we remain just like animals, then we are missing the opportunity.


'''Ranchor:''' He explained that Baha’u’llah has taught that God is unknowable.
So, our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is that people may not live like animals. Therefore, all our students, they follow strictly the prohibited principles: no illicit sex, no meat-eating, no intoxication, no gambling.


'''Prabhupāda:'''If He is unknowable, then why there is a attempt to know Him?
Illicit sex is animal. Animal has no—in the animal society there is no marriage. Any man-woman mixes and have sex life. That is animal—illicit sex.


Srutakirti: He said that the ultimate goal of the faith is God realisation, but now you are saying He is unknowable.
Similarly, human being eating meat—that is also animalism. The tigers, the jackals, the cats, dogs—they can eat meat. The human being—just like you have brought so many nice things. They have got—God has given so many nice things—why they should eat meat?


'''John:''' Our oneness with God.
And so far intoxication—in the material condition of life we are already intoxicated. Our brain is agitated—crazy. Because we are accepting this body:


'''Prabhupāda:'''Oneness?
:yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke
:(SB 10.84.13)


'''John:''' Oneness with God.
I am not this body, but I am accepting this body—this is madness. So, if he is indulging again further intoxication, then when will he come to his senses? Therefore, intoxication is also animalism.


'''Prabhupāda:'''Now we are different?
And gambling—that is also another lower class of engagement. Why should we gamble? We are destined to some extent suffering or enjoying according to my past karma. We cannot decrease it or increase it. That is not possible. So why should we indulge in gambling? Better that time be utilized for advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness—God consciousness.


'''John:''' I can’t define God.  
So, this is our program. We are pushing on the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement on the basis of the science of God. It is not a sentimental religious movement. Therefore, we welcome everyone. Everyone from the human society. And they are coming, they are understanding.


'''Prabhupāda:'''You don’t define?
Kṛṣṇa was not known—it was known, but not so elaborately—four or five years ago when this European and American, they are accepting this Kṛṣṇa cult. And I think there is very good chance of cooperating with the Christian religion, because Christian religion is also propagating God consciousness. Hm.


'''John:''' I can’t define God. Because God is...  
But we claim to be a little more accurate—we get the name of God, His activities, His characteristics—everything—stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. So, if we cooperate, then the people of the world will be benefited. That is our submission. Hm.


'''Prabhupāda:'''What is this?
So, what is your opinion about our movement?


'''John:''' God is a word, you see, this is the point, from my understanding. And my understanding.
'''Father Simon:''' I think it is wonderful that so many young people are being inspired to seek the things of God.


'''Prabhupāda:'''Your understanding may be defective.
'''Brother Roger:''' Yeah.


'''John:''' Right.
'''Father Simon:''' And being helped to love God.


'''Prabhupāda:'''But the thing is, if God is not knowable, then why there should be attempt to know Him?
'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. So one Father in Boston, he issued one pamphlet that “these boys, they are our boys. From Christian or from Jewish group they have joined this movement. But before that, they are not interested about God. And how it is that they have become mad after God?” This is the statement of a Christian priest in Boston.


'''John:''' To become one with reality? We are all going towards, we are all serving, trying to serve.
'''Father Simon:''' I think the great need of this time is for real spiritual teaching, isn’t it?


'''Prabhupāda:'''Is there any statement by the original founder what is the nature of God?
'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes.


'''John:''' Energy? Light?
'''Father Simon:''' (indistinct) before.


'''Ranchor:''' Is there any statement by the original founder of the faith what is the nature of God? Is there any statement that he has made? In other words Baha’u’llah, who is God?
'''Prabhupāda:''' And because Bhagavad-gītā, we understand that is the science of God. God is explaining Himself—what He is. God cannot be known by our mental speculation; He is unlimited. But if He reveals Himself, we can know something about Him.


'''John:''' What is God? Well Baha’u’llah, who was the founder of the Baha’i faith was the Pen of God, and what he has written is purely the reflection, because Baha’u’llah, what it means, is that he was the glory of God, not God, but the glory of God, the reflection of God.
That is the statement of Bhāgavatam:


'''Prabhupāda:'''That’s nice, that’s nice. But he is reflection of God—reflection means that here is a thing, and in the mirror the exact reflection is there. Just like if you see your face, the reflection in the mirror…
:ataḥ śrī-kṛṣṇa-nāmādi
:na bhaved grāhyam indriyaiḥ
:(Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.234)


'''John:''' Mmm.
Our present senses are covered by these material ingredients, therefore it is not possible to speculate about God by these material senses. The senses are to be purified to come to the spiritual position. Then, when we apply our senses in the service of the master of the senses…


'''Prabhupāda:'''So, the reflection in the mirror is exactly like your face. The face is the reality, and the reflection is a shadow. But it gives the idea of the reality. Is it not?
God is the master of the senses. His name is Hṛṣīkeśa. Hṛṣīka means “senses.” In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, God says—Kṛṣṇa says—“I have got my hands and legs everywhere.” So, my hand is God’s hand. We can easily understand—because a son’s body is created by the father. So, the hand of the son is also hand of the father.


'''John:''' Uhum.
So therefore, our senses—our hands, legs, and everything—they are being God’s property. They should be engaged for God’s activities—not for any other reason. Just like my hand, I use it for my purpose, my hand is not used for your purpose. Similarly, if we realize that the proprietor of my senses is the Supreme Lord, therefore my senses should be engaged for the service of the Lord.


'''Prabhupāda:'''Similarly, if you say that Baha’u’llah is reflection of God, then from the reflection we can understand what is God.
Actually, they are not mine—they are Kṛṣṇa’s, God’s. So that is the formula of bhakti-yoga:
'''John:''' As we become more receptive, as we understand more?


'''Prabhupāda:'''Yes, more or less, more or less. When the reflection is there, we can understand the reality. Just like my face: I do not see it. But when I keep a mirror before me, the reflection of the face is there, then I can see, oh here is a spot, or here is this, here is this. So, although I cannot see my face, but when it is reflected, I can see it. And from the reflection I can describe the features of my face. Is it clear?
:sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ
:tat-paratvena nirmalam
:(Cc. Madhya 19.170)


'''John:''' Uhum.
We are thinking now “I am Indian, I am Englishman, I am German, I am brāhmaṇa, I am kṣatriya, I am Christian, I am Hindu, I am Muslim.” They are thinking like that. These are all designations.


'''Prabhupāda:'''So, if Baha’i is reflection, then from him we can understand God.
So, one should be free from all designations:


'''John:''' Yes, I can accept this point, because this makes a sort of way to know God.
:sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam


'''Prabhupāda:'''So, what statement he has given about God? That is my point.  
He should be purified in God consciousness. “I am servant of God,” or “I am servant of Kṛṣṇa.” This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.


'''John:''' What statement?
Now I am thinking “I am servant of my family, I am servant of my community, I am servant of my nation, I am servant of my group…” So many things. “I am this, I am that.” These are all designations.


'''Prabhupāda:'''Because if he is reflection—you have said reflection—reflection will give you an idea of the face.
Therefore, the formula is sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ—one should be free from all designations. That is called brahma-jñāna—this real identity is “I am part and parcel of God. I am servant of God.” When you come to this sense, then my senses are purified. With that purified sense, we can serve God. That is called bhakti-yoga:


'''John:''' Uhum.
:hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa-
:sevanaṁ bhaktir ucyate
:(Cc. Madhya 19.170)


'''Prabhupāda:'''So, what is the difficulty to give any definition or statement about God?
Hṛṣīka means “senses.” When the senses are purified, then in that purified sense we serve the Supreme—that is liberation:


'''John:''' Well then, does this mean then that we are all, and everything is, reflections if God?
:sa guṇān samatītyaitān
:brahma-bhūyāya kalpate
:(BG 14.26)


'''Prabhupāda:'''Yes.  
'''(aside:)''' Call that paṇḍita mahāśaya. (Pradyumna)


'''John:''' In that broader, infinite sense?
Brahma-bhūyāya kalpate—that is spiritual existence. So here, our students, they are no more identifying themselves either as Christian or Hindu or German or Englishman or Indian. They are thinking themselves as eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa.


'''Prabhupāda:'''Yes. Yes, that’s nice. Reflection. In the Christian faith also, they say that man is made after God. We also say. Just like our Kṛṣṇa, God. So, as Kṛṣṇa has got two hands, we have got two hands, Kṛṣṇa has got two legs, we have got two legs, Kṛṣṇa has got a head, we have got a head. So, we can understand from the reflection, we are reflection, we can understand God is a person. Is it not? God is a person. Like me. Is it not clear?
So here is factual unity—factual unity, unity on the platform of spirit soul. And unity on the material platform is not possible. Material platform—there is no possibility of… so many times they have tried unity on the material platform. It has failed. That is not possible. Because on the material plane…


'''John:''' Yes, well this is true, what He said. It is from the clay that made you.
'''(aside:)''' This door is open. Close it.
So, on the spiritual platform there is possibility of imitating (?). Otherwise, there is no possibility of ending it. So, what is your opinion about our movement?
Father Simon: I think that we must hope and pray that the Lord will use all these stirring’s to his end. Glory to draw everyone close to Him and we won’t be sidetracked as you say into labels and designations. His (mumble) people so easily take on the externals same thing. Something some craze or fashion or whatever. And identify themselves with that and it becomes another limited thing, another prison. And then the very things that God gives us to enable us to grow out of the prison, to break out of the prison. We build them up into another little prison and they witness that all the religions I think is to this great freedom that God has and that God wants us to have. To get beyond these, to get beyond the merely externals…


'''Prabhupāda:'''Yes. If I am reflection of God, you are reflection of God, then you, me, everyone of us, is person, therefore God is person. God is not imperson. This is the first statement.
'''Prabhupāda:''' Boliye (Hindi)


'''John:''' Yes, well this is one point which I’ve been trying to clarify.
'''Father Simon:''' And beyond the (chuckles)…


'''Prabhupāda:'''Yes, it is already clarified, because if I am reflection of God, I am a person, then God must be a person. It is already clear.
'''Prabhupāda:''' I puzzled; I do not follow.
'''John:''' Uhum.
'''Prabhupāda:'''Is it not? God is person. As we accept. bhakte person. Now, it is to be understood what kind of person He is? What is the difference between His personality and my personality? That is to be understood. If I am reflection, then I am a person. So, God must be a person, if I am reflection of God. Now just to be understood, what kind of person He is? Is it exactly like me? Or He is different from me?


'''John:''' Different.
'''Revaténandana:''' Well, he says it’s, it’s very essential. He agrees it’s essential to get beyond these material designations.


'''Prabhupāda:'''Yes.
'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes.


'''John:''' In what way, a degree or refinement?  
'''Revaténandana:''' And into the higher freedom that God has. That He wants us all to have, is that?


'''Prabhupāda:'''Yes. Thank you. Yes. He is unlimited, we are limited. That is the difference. He is person, I am also person, that’s a fact. But He is the supreme person. Nobody can excel Him. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gétä. Matah parataram nanyat. He’s person. Just like, I am a person, my disciples they are also persons, but my disciple consider me as greater person. Similarly, I consider my spiritual master as greater person. So, greater, greater, greater, greater, greater. When you have come to the person when there is no more greater than him, then he is God. Then he is God. Here I am greater than him, but my spiritual master is greater than me, his spiritual master is greater than him, go on, go on, go on. When you come to the ultimate person, and when he see that there is no more other greater than him, then he is God.  
'''Father Simon:''' Yes.


'''John:''' I can realize this to a point. Because I—I might be completely wrong, I probably am...
'''Revaténandana:''' That’s a very brief summary (laughter).


'''Prabhupāda:'''This is philosophy. The supreme person, above whom there is no more greater person
'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes, we have got the freedom because we are part and parcel of God. God is complete free—His freedom is not dependent on others—svarāṭ. Just like we get some knowledge from our teacher, so God is not dependent like that: svā-bhāvikī jñāna-bala-kriyā ca (BG 3.22). He is self-sufficient, He is complete free. That is the distinction between God and us. And because we are part and parcel of God, we have got little freedom. When you misuse that little freedom that is our material condition. When we use that freedom properly, that is our spiritual condition.


'''John:''' Is there no degree of refinement?
'''Father Simon:''' Our great conviction is that it is always God reaching out to us and that if we call Him—Lord. If we call Him the Lord then in surrendering our human, apparent human freedom to Him. He leads us beyond ourselves…


'''Prabhupāda:'''Yes, that I said. Just like I am a little more advanced, therefore they accept me as their spiritual master, similarly I accept guru. Guru, guru, means heavy. Heavy, heavy—you do understand?
'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes.


'''John:''' Yes, heavy, weight.
'''Father Simon:''' He is always confronting us with the, the new step that we can take towards Him.


'''Prabhupāda:'''Yes, weight. So, guru means heavy. So, I am heavier than my disciple, my guru maharaja is heavier. In this way, when you go to the supreme person, no more heavier than him. He is the heaviest of all. He is God. That is our philosophy. Éçvaraù parama Krsna. We get information from Vedas that parama, the supreme, isvara, controller, is Kṛṣṇa. His name is Kṛṣṇa. Éçvaraù parama Kṛṣṇa. Isvara means controller. So, I am controlling my disciples, my guru maharaja is controlling me, his guru maharaja is controlling. In this way, we are controller and controlled. Both.
'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes, that is the instruction of the Bhagavad-gītā. Kṛṣṇa says that you give up any, everything else you just simply surrender to Me, and I give you all protection.
John. Uhum.


'''Prabhupāda:'''I am controlling somebody, but I am controlled by somebody else. This is my position.  
'''Father Simon:''' Yes.


John. Uhum, yes.
'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. That is the instruction, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja.
''(aside:)'' Find that verse.


'''Prabhupāda:'''In this way, when you find a person who is simply controller, not controlled by anyone else, he is God. He is God. Very simple definition. He is simply controller, he is not controlled. Nobody controls him. Then he is God. This is simple understanding of God.
'''Pradyumna:'''
John. Uhum.
:sarva-dharmān parityajya
:mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja
:ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo
:mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucah
:(BG 18.66)
:“Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reaction…”


'''Prabhupāda:'''Therefore, it is said, Éçvaraù parama Kṛṣṇa. Para means supreme. He has no controller. He is not controlled. By anyone. Therefore, He is God. Éçvaraù parama Kṛṣṇa. So, He’s a person sat-cit-ananda vigraha. Vigraha means person. So, that is clear, because we are reflection of God. So, I am a person, God must be a person. That is clear. But His personality and my personality, different. At least at the present moment, so long I am in the material world, my personality is there, but my body is not exactly like Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa’s body is sat-cit-ananda. Sat means eternal, cit means full of knowledge, and ananda means full of bliss. My body is not sat-cit-ananda. It is not eternal. It is temporary. Therefore, different from God’s body. My body is not full of knowledge, because I do not know even, what is going on within my body. But it is going on, but I do not know. Therefore, my body is full of ignorance. So, it is temporary, it is full of ignorance, and it is not full of bliss. It is full of miserable conditions. I have got disease, I get old age, I get death, I take my birth, I have got mental anxieties, I have got bodily pains and pleasure, I am afflicted by others. So many. So, there is no ananda, there is no bliss. Therefore, my body is different from God’s, Kṛṣṇa’s, body. He is sat-cit-ananda vigraha. Although He is person, I am person, that’s alright, but at the present moment my body is different from Him.  
'''Prabhupāda:''' Real religion is to surrender to God. That is real religion. And other’s religion which you have manufactured that maybe temporarily beneficial but that is not real religion. In Bhāgavata also, it is confirmed:
:''sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo''
:''yato bhaktir adhokṣaje''
:(SB 1.2.6)
That type of religion is first class following which one becomes a surrendered devotee to the Supreme Lord. That is first class religion. And, ahaituky apratihatā, that surrender is without any motive. The surrender should be: God is great, I am His servant, so I fully surrender unto Him. Not that I’ll get some motivated profit. There is no such thing, because He will take care of me, He knows everything. Yoga-kṣemaṁ vahāmy aham. Just like a child is fully surrendered to the parents, the parent is taking care of what the child needs, how the child will be comfortable. So, therefore, our only business is to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. And then He will take—there is no need of asking anything from Him. There is no need. He knows, He’s omnipotent, omniscient. He knows my needs and He promises:
:''teṣāṁ nityābhiyuktānāṁ''
:''yoga-kṣemaṁ vahāmy aham''
:(BG 9.22)
Just like exactly the father takes care of the child. He knows how the child will be happy, what does he require. Now he requires food, now he requires rest. So, everything is there, he is surrendered simply to the lap of mother, to the care of father. And that kind of surrender is the religion. Completely. And that is, Kṛṣṇa says: sarva-dharmān parityajya. We might have manufactured so many things as religion. Why difference of religion? Why the Hindus, the Christians, the Mohammedans—they think that my religion is different from the others. Religion cannot be different. Religion means God consciousness. If God is one, then religion must be one. And that one religion is surrender to God, that’s all. It doesn’t require any ritualistic ceremony. “God is great, my dear Lord, You are great, I am Your subservient. I forgot it. From this day I surrender unto You. You take charge of me.” That’s all. Even I haven’t got to say “You take charge.” He says “I will take charge.” There is no need of saying also. Simply I have to say: “From this day I am fully surrendered unto You. If You like, You give me protection; if You like, You can kill me; whatever You like, You can do it.”


:''mārabi rākhabi—yo icchā tohārā''
:''nitya-dāsa-prati tuyā adhikārā''
:(Mānasa Deha Geha, 3)


Then what is my position? My position is, if I am real reflection, then how I am covered by something by which I have got a body which is not permanent, not blissful, not full of knowledge? So, that covering is called maya. Just like you are covered by your coat. This coat is not your identity. You are mister such-and-such. I ask you mister such-and-such, I don’t ask you mister black coat or blue coat, no. This body is just like that. It is like a dress. Within this body, my reality is there. That is soul. The soul is as good in quality as the Lord, because I am part and parcel of God. Therefore, my attempt should be how to get out of this temporary body, miserable condition without any bliss, and get back my original body, which is as good in quality as that of God. This should be the attempt of human life. Developed consciousness.
Just like now, there is no slave. Formerly a slave, the master could do anything with him. Similarly, if we become a slave-like, then He has—God has—the right to do whatever He likes with me. And that is surrender. And that is religion. That religion is being taught in the Bhagavad-gītā:
In the animal life they cannot do it, because they have no developed consciousness. In the human life we have got developed consciousness, therefore out attempt should be made how to get back, or revive, our original consciousness, or original body. That is perfection of life. That original consciousness is Kṛṣṇa consciousness: that I am part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, or God. I am fallen in this my condition of life, so let me revive my original position and go back to home back to Godhead.  
:''sarva-dharmān parityajya''
:''mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ… ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo''
:''mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucah''
:(BG 18.66)


'''John:''' Could you explain what that experience that I experienced, that I was pointing out earlier on, back in 1940? Due to an accident they gave me anaesthetic and the experience was the sounds of the great bell ringing. Which eventually…
What is the translation?


'''Prabhupāda:'''You experienced?
'''Pradyumna:''' “Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reaction. Do not fear.”


'''John:''' Yeah.  
'''Prabhupāda:''' So, we suffer for our sinful activities, so we should surrender to God and stop our sinful activities. It is not that because I have surrendered to God so I can go on continue with my sinful activity, God will give me protection. No, that is not. You stop—no more sinful activities. Of course, anyone who has surrendered to God, he cannot indulge in sinful activities. Because he will abide by the orders of God, he cannot be sinful: yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā
:(SB 5.18.12)
If anyone is fully surrendered, then he has got all the good qualities of the demigods:
:''sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ''
Surāḥ means “the demigods in higher planetary systems.” Devatā. They have got very good qualities, so in the devotee all the good qualities manifest. That is the test. We cannot find any fault with a devotee because everything is good qualities.


'''Ranchor:''' He described experiencing dazzling light.
And on the contrary:
:''harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇā''
One who is not a devotee, surrendered soul, he has no good quality.
:''manorathenāsati dhāvato bahiḥ''
By his mental speculation he will simply be materially attached. That is the distinction between devotee and non-devotee. For devotee there is no more mental speculation. So, one decision: “I am surrendered to Kṛṣṇa.” That’s all. Go on.


'''John:''' Yes, from a pinpoint this light grew and grew and grew until it eventually burst into a thousand million lights. And then the sounds of the bells, it went…
Then follow the words of Kṛṣṇa:
:''manmanā bhava mad-bhakto''
:''mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru''
:''mām evaiṣyasi''
:(BG 9.34)
''(aside)'' Find that verse.


'''Prabhupāda:'''[Aside:] Let him come if he wants. What is that?
'''Pradyumna:'''
:''manmanā bhava mad-bhakto''
:''mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru''
:''mām evaiṣyasi yuktvaivam''
:''ātmānaṁ mat-parāyaṇaḥ''
:(BG 9.34)


'''Ranchor:''' Sound of bells ringing. Bells…
'''Prabhupāda:''' Hm.


'''John:''' Yes, these large [indistinct] bells, vibrations, they gradually tinkled outwards, until there was just a tinkle, and there was a breath of wind blowing…
'''Pradyumna:''' “Engage your mind always in thinking of Me, offer obeisances and worship Me. Being completely absorbed in Me, surely you will come to Me.”


'''Prabhupāda:'''That’s nice. You experienced this?
'''Prabhupāda:''' This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Always thinking of Kṛṣṇa. Our process is chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare, and hearing. This is manmanā—always thinking of Kṛṣṇa. And then worshipping the Deity in the temple. Manmanā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ, mad-yājī—worshipping Me. Hm. So, we have got daily class, daily worship, all the devotees they take part. They have got 24 hours engagement. So, mind cannot be diverted from Kṛṣṇa. That is manmanā. Somehow or other he is thinking of Kṛṣṇa—“Now I have to go to preach there, I have to make him member, or I’ll have to lecture there.” Or here also, “Now there is ārati, now there is bhoga, now there is class.” In this way they are engaged thinking of Kṛṣṇa 24 hours. Manmanā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru.


'''John:''' Yes.
You have seen our books?


'''Ranchor:''' Yes.
'''Father Simon:''' I’ve seen some of your, your books—yes.


'''Prabhupāda:'''There was a place where bells are ringing?
'''Prabhupāda:''' You can show our books.


'''Ranchor:''' He experienced merging into.
'''Father Simon:''' You have services at the same times of the day, every day, do you—when you all come together for worship?


'''John:''' Big bells were ringing first with a deep dong, then there was a gradual tinkling off to a mere tinkle, then it just went into a breeze, like a sshhh, like a breeze blowing, like the sand on a seashore…
'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes.


'''Prabhupāda:'''So, there is breeze, there is sea, there is bell, so there are varieties. So, you have to accept that the spiritual world is full of varieties.  
'''Father Simon:''' And prayer. Yes.


'''John:''' Uhum.
'''Prabhupāda:''' We have got…


'''Prabhupāda:'''It is not impersonal. That’s nice. As you say that there was breeze, there was sand-beach, there were bells—these are varieties. So, we also say that the spiritual world is full of spiritual varieties.  
'''Father Simon:''' Yes, impressed.


'''John:''' Uhum.
'''Prabhupāda:''' From morning 4 o’clock to night 10 o’clock, we have got engagements.


'''Prabhupāda:'''
'''Father Simon:''' Hm.
cintämaëi-prakara-sadmasu kalpa-våkña-
lakñävåteñu surabhér abhipälayantam
lakñmé-sahasra-çata-sambhrama-sevyamänaà
govindam ädi-puruñaà tam ahaà bhajämi
[Bs 5.29]
God, Govindam, the supreme Lord, is very fond of tending cows, surabhi cows, as cowherd’s boy surabhir abhipalayantam. And he is always surrounded by many thousands of goddesses of fortune. They are called gopis. And the house in that spiritual world is made of touchstone Cintamini prakara. Kalpa vriksa, there are trees, but they are desire trees—not like this tree—you can ask anything from that tree, it will supply.
So, these are the description of the spiritual world. The spiritual world, or the abode of God, the kingdom of God, is not void or impersonal. There are varieties, as exactly we experience varieties in this world, but that variety is of spirit, not of matter. Spirit means having knowledge, that is spirit. Just like here, this table, this is material, it has no knowledge. Suppose I want to move this table little this way or that way, so I don’t require to move it. As soon as I wish, I ask the table, ‘Please move this way,’ it will move. Just like I ask my disciple, ‘Please move,’ he will move. This is spirit. So, the spiritual world means there are varieties exactly like this, but they are all full of knowledge. Knowledge.


'''John:''' Which is infinitely expanding?
'''Prabhupāda:''' We are publishing all these books in all important languages.


'''Prabhupāda:'''Yes, expanding. Knowledge means, whatever he desires he does. That is knowledge.
'''Father Simon:''' Yes.
'''John:''' This would relate then to the eternal progress which is open to every soul.
 
'''Prabhupāda:'''Progress? There is no question of progress.
'''Prabhupāda:''' English, German, French, Spanish, Japanese, Chinese. And in India—Hindi, Bengali, Gujarati—as far as possible, we are publishing in all the languages.
'''John:''' Or evolution?
 
'''Prabhupāda:'''There is varieties.
'''Father Simon:''' You have your own printing press?
'''John:''' Varieties.
 
'''Prabhupāda:'''Varieties. Just like this flower is a variety. The table is a variety. So, progress from here, from matter we make progress to the spiritual world. That is progress. But here all the varieties, because they are material, they are temporary. There the varieties are not temporary—eternal. Here this flower, it will wither, dry, because it is made of material energy. But there the flower, ever fresh. Ever fresh. It will never wither. The tree is ever fresh. The trees are always full with fruits. Not only one kind of fruit, but whatever fruit you like you can get from that tree. These are the description of the spiritual world.
'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. But they are not printed in our press.
'''John:''' Uhum.
 
'''Prabhupāda:'''And there the supreme person is surabhir abhipalayantam. He is acting like a cowherd boy. Venum kvanantam. He is blowing on his flute. Barhavatamsam. He has got a peacock feather on his head.
'''Father Simon:''' Hm.
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' They are printed in Japan.
 
'''Father Simon:''' In Japan?
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' We cannot print so nicely. (Laughter) Now we are going to print in Germany also; here is the dummy.
 
'''Father Simon:''' Yes.
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes.
 
'''Revaténandana:''' We are also printing in England. We have done our first magazine in England recently.
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. We are expanding. And we are selling our books also very nicely. Yes. In America we are selling on the average about $3,000 daily. Is it not?
 
'''Revaténandana:''' I think so.
 
'''Pradyumna:''' At least.
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. In Los Angeles alone, we are collecting $1,000, and similarly, in New York.
 
'''Pradyumna:''' In New York also.
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' And taking all other places, not less than $3,000 daily.
 
'''Father Simon:''' Lord Caitanya was the founder of your movement originally.
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' No, no. Kṛṣṇa was the founder 5,000 years ago. The founder—Kṛṣṇa is the founder and it is coming from time immemorial. Because God is origin, so you cannot find out

Latest revision as of 16:17, 29 May 2025

Prabhupāda: Shall I address you as father?

Father Simon: I’m Father Simon, yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Father Simon: This is Brother Roger.

Prabhupāda: So father’s father. Father has got a father? Is it not?

Father Simon: Yes (laughs).

Prabhupāda: So let us go. I am father, I have got my father, my father has got father. In this way, who is the ultimate father? There must be one ultimate father. Because I have got my father, my father has got father. So you go on, it does not mean that on the tenth generation or twentieth generation I could not see the father. That does not mean there was no father. There must have—a father.

Therefore, originally, there is the Supreme Father, and your Christian religion recognizes God as the Father. You pray “oh Father”. So, our experience is that I am also father, my father is also father but we are all persons. Therefore, the original Father, the beginning Father—He must be a person. What is your opinion? He cannot be impersonal. Do you agree or not?

Father Simon: Ah, yes, we believe in…

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Father Simon: God as person, yeh quite.

Prabhupāda: So, father is controller. Father controls me, I am son. My father controls me, father controls the family. Therefore, in a small jurisdiction the father is the controller. Similarly, his father he is also controller, the Supreme Father is the Supreme Controller. That is Vedic version:

īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ
sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ
(Brahma-saṁhitā 5.1)

The Supreme Father is Kṛṣṇa. All controller. Sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ—His form is not like us, His form is eternal, full of knowledge, full of bliss.

So why I am being the son of the same Father by descendance—why my body is not like Him? My body is not eternal, I have to give up this body. My body is full of ignorance. There is no knowledge, I do not know what is going on within my body. Still, I claim it is my body. I eat but I do not know how the eatables turn into so many secretions, turn into blood, into urine, into so many things.

They are divided, the big mechanical process is going on. But I do not know exactly. And when there is some disturbance in the metabolism of the function of the bodily machine, I go to the doctor because I do not know. So, therefore, I am full of ignorance—my body.

And sac-cid-ānanda: sat means “eternal”; cit means “full of knowledge”; and ānanda means “full of bliss.” So, this body is full of miseries. It is not blissful. Apart from all other miserable conditions, we have to meet death, which we do not want. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā:

janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-
duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam
(BG 13.9)

You may be very proud of your advancement of knowledge. But the main problems of life—birth, death, old age, and disease—there is no remedy. You have not discovered any remedy for this miserable condition. Therefore, my body is temporary, it is full of ignorance, it is full of miseries.

God’s body is eternal, full of knowledge, and full of pleasure. This is the distinction between God and myself. Otherwise, God is also a living being—supreme living being. I am also living being. That is stated in the Vedas:

nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām
(Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13)

God is the supreme eternal, among the other eternals—other eternals who are the living entities. We are also eternal. You do not die after the destruction of the body:

na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre
(BG 2.20)

So, because we are now in the conditional stage of material life, we are undergoing this birth, death, old age, and disease. Otherwise, we are as good as Kṛṣṇa or God, we have got our spiritual body which is now covered.

Now, our main business is how to become aloof from this conditional life. That is our main business in human life. We should not act in such a way that we become more conditioned. Just like a prisoner in the prison house—his business is how to finish that period of punishment and go out of the prison. Not to increase more entanglement so that he will continue prison life again, again, again.

So that people do not understand—they are trying to be happy in the prison house, which is impossible. Prison house is never meant for happiness. It is meant for giving distress to the criminals so that he may come to his senses. But unfortunately, they are making association, combination to become happy in the prison house. That is their ignorance.

In the prison house, in the material world, there is no possibility of happiness. Therefore, the aim should be to go back to home, back to Godhead. That is the main business of human beings—especially because in the animal life it is not possible. They cannot make any progress of spiritual life. But in the human life also, if we remain just like animals, then we are missing the opportunity.

So, our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is that people may not live like animals. Therefore, all our students, they follow strictly the prohibited principles: no illicit sex, no meat-eating, no intoxication, no gambling.

Illicit sex is animal. Animal has no—in the animal society there is no marriage. Any man-woman mixes and have sex life. That is animal—illicit sex.

Similarly, human being eating meat—that is also animalism. The tigers, the jackals, the cats, dogs—they can eat meat. The human being—just like you have brought so many nice things. They have got—God has given so many nice things—why they should eat meat?

And so far intoxication—in the material condition of life we are already intoxicated. Our brain is agitated—crazy. Because we are accepting this body:

yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke
(SB 10.84.13)

I am not this body, but I am accepting this body—this is madness. So, if he is indulging again further intoxication, then when will he come to his senses? Therefore, intoxication is also animalism.

And gambling—that is also another lower class of engagement. Why should we gamble? We are destined to some extent suffering or enjoying according to my past karma. We cannot decrease it or increase it. That is not possible. So why should we indulge in gambling? Better that time be utilized for advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness—God consciousness.

So, this is our program. We are pushing on the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement on the basis of the science of God. It is not a sentimental religious movement. Therefore, we welcome everyone. Everyone from the human society. And they are coming, they are understanding.

Kṛṣṇa was not known—it was known, but not so elaborately—four or five years ago when this European and American, they are accepting this Kṛṣṇa cult. And I think there is very good chance of cooperating with the Christian religion, because Christian religion is also propagating God consciousness. Hm.

But we claim to be a little more accurate—we get the name of God, His activities, His characteristics—everything—stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. So, if we cooperate, then the people of the world will be benefited. That is our submission. Hm.

So, what is your opinion about our movement?

Father Simon: I think it is wonderful that so many young people are being inspired to seek the things of God.

Brother Roger: Yeah.

Father Simon: And being helped to love God.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So one Father in Boston, he issued one pamphlet that “these boys, they are our boys. From Christian or from Jewish group they have joined this movement. But before that, they are not interested about God. And how it is that they have become mad after God?” This is the statement of a Christian priest in Boston.

Father Simon: I think the great need of this time is for real spiritual teaching, isn’t it?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Father Simon: (indistinct) before.

Prabhupāda: And because Bhagavad-gītā, we understand that is the science of God. God is explaining Himself—what He is. God cannot be known by our mental speculation; He is unlimited. But if He reveals Himself, we can know something about Him.

That is the statement of Bhāgavatam:

ataḥ śrī-kṛṣṇa-nāmādi
na bhaved grāhyam indriyaiḥ
(Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.234)

Our present senses are covered by these material ingredients, therefore it is not possible to speculate about God by these material senses. The senses are to be purified to come to the spiritual position. Then, when we apply our senses in the service of the master of the senses…

God is the master of the senses. His name is Hṛṣīkeśa. Hṛṣīka means “senses.” In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, God says—Kṛṣṇa says—“I have got my hands and legs everywhere.” So, my hand is God’s hand. We can easily understand—because a son’s body is created by the father. So, the hand of the son is also hand of the father.

So therefore, our senses—our hands, legs, and everything—they are being God’s property. They should be engaged for God’s activities—not for any other reason. Just like my hand, I use it for my purpose, my hand is not used for your purpose. Similarly, if we realize that the proprietor of my senses is the Supreme Lord, therefore my senses should be engaged for the service of the Lord.

Actually, they are not mine—they are Kṛṣṇa’s, God’s. So that is the formula of bhakti-yoga:

sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ
tat-paratvena nirmalam
(Cc. Madhya 19.170)

We are thinking now “I am Indian, I am Englishman, I am German, I am brāhmaṇa, I am kṣatriya, I am Christian, I am Hindu, I am Muslim.” They are thinking like that. These are all designations.

So, one should be free from all designations:

sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam

He should be purified in God consciousness. “I am servant of God,” or “I am servant of Kṛṣṇa.” This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Now I am thinking “I am servant of my family, I am servant of my community, I am servant of my nation, I am servant of my group…” So many things. “I am this, I am that.” These are all designations.

Therefore, the formula is sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ—one should be free from all designations. That is called brahma-jñāna—this real identity is “I am part and parcel of God. I am servant of God.” When you come to this sense, then my senses are purified. With that purified sense, we can serve God. That is called bhakti-yoga:

hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa-
sevanaṁ bhaktir ucyate
(Cc. Madhya 19.170)

Hṛṣīka means “senses.” When the senses are purified, then in that purified sense we serve the Supreme—that is liberation:

sa guṇān samatītyaitān
brahma-bhūyāya kalpate
(BG 14.26)

(aside:) Call that paṇḍita mahāśaya. (Pradyumna)

Brahma-bhūyāya kalpate—that is spiritual existence. So here, our students, they are no more identifying themselves either as Christian or Hindu or German or Englishman or Indian. They are thinking themselves as eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa.

So here is factual unity—factual unity, unity on the platform of spirit soul. And unity on the material platform is not possible. Material platform—there is no possibility of… so many times they have tried unity on the material platform. It has failed. That is not possible. Because on the material plane…

(aside:) This door is open. Close it. So, on the spiritual platform there is possibility of imitating (?). Otherwise, there is no possibility of ending it. So, what is your opinion about our movement? Father Simon: I think that we must hope and pray that the Lord will use all these stirring’s to his end. Glory to draw everyone close to Him and we won’t be sidetracked as you say into labels and designations. His (mumble) people so easily take on the externals same thing. Something some craze or fashion or whatever. And identify themselves with that and it becomes another limited thing, another prison. And then the very things that God gives us to enable us to grow out of the prison, to break out of the prison. We build them up into another little prison and they witness that all the religions I think is to this great freedom that God has and that God wants us to have. To get beyond these, to get beyond the merely externals…

Prabhupāda: Boliye (Hindi)

Father Simon: And beyond the (chuckles)…

Prabhupāda: I puzzled; I do not follow.

Revaténandana: Well, he says it’s, it’s very essential. He agrees it’s essential to get beyond these material designations.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Revaténandana: And into the higher freedom that God has. That He wants us all to have, is that?

Father Simon: Yes.

Revaténandana: That’s a very brief summary (laughter).

Prabhupāda: Yes, we have got the freedom because we are part and parcel of God. God is complete free—His freedom is not dependent on others—svarāṭ. Just like we get some knowledge from our teacher, so God is not dependent like that: svā-bhāvikī jñāna-bala-kriyā ca (BG 3.22). He is self-sufficient, He is complete free. That is the distinction between God and us. And because we are part and parcel of God, we have got little freedom. When you misuse that little freedom that is our material condition. When we use that freedom properly, that is our spiritual condition.

Father Simon: Our great conviction is that it is always God reaching out to us and that if we call Him—Lord. If we call Him the Lord then in surrendering our human, apparent human freedom to Him. He leads us beyond ourselves…

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Father Simon: He is always confronting us with the, the new step that we can take towards Him.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the instruction of the Bhagavad-gītā. Kṛṣṇa says that you give up any, everything else you just simply surrender to Me, and I give you all protection.

Father Simon: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the instruction, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. (aside:) Find that verse.

Pradyumna:

sarva-dharmān parityajya
mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja
ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo
mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucah
(BG 18.66)
“Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reaction…”

Prabhupāda: Real religion is to surrender to God. That is real religion. And other’s religion which you have manufactured that maybe temporarily beneficial but that is not real religion. In Bhāgavata also, it is confirmed:

sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo
yato bhaktir adhokṣaje
(SB 1.2.6)

That type of religion is first class following which one becomes a surrendered devotee to the Supreme Lord. That is first class religion. And, ahaituky apratihatā, that surrender is without any motive. The surrender should be: God is great, I am His servant, so I fully surrender unto Him. Not that I’ll get some motivated profit. There is no such thing, because He will take care of me, He knows everything. Yoga-kṣemaṁ vahāmy aham. Just like a child is fully surrendered to the parents, the parent is taking care of what the child needs, how the child will be comfortable. So, therefore, our only business is to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. And then He will take—there is no need of asking anything from Him. There is no need. He knows, He’s omnipotent, omniscient. He knows my needs and He promises:

teṣāṁ nityābhiyuktānāṁ
yoga-kṣemaṁ vahāmy aham
(BG 9.22)

Just like exactly the father takes care of the child. He knows how the child will be happy, what does he require. Now he requires food, now he requires rest. So, everything is there, he is surrendered simply to the lap of mother, to the care of father. And that kind of surrender is the religion. Completely. And that is, Kṛṣṇa says: sarva-dharmān parityajya. We might have manufactured so many things as religion. Why difference of religion? Why the Hindus, the Christians, the Mohammedans—they think that my religion is different from the others. Religion cannot be different. Religion means God consciousness. If God is one, then religion must be one. And that one religion is surrender to God, that’s all. It doesn’t require any ritualistic ceremony. “God is great, my dear Lord, You are great, I am Your subservient. I forgot it. From this day I surrender unto You. You take charge of me.” That’s all. Even I haven’t got to say “You take charge.” He says “I will take charge.” There is no need of saying also. Simply I have to say: “From this day I am fully surrendered unto You. If You like, You give me protection; if You like, You can kill me; whatever You like, You can do it.”

mārabi rākhabi—yo icchā tohārā
nitya-dāsa-prati tuyā adhikārā
(Mānasa Deha Geha, 3)

Just like now, there is no slave. Formerly a slave, the master could do anything with him. Similarly, if we become a slave-like, then He has—God has—the right to do whatever He likes with me. And that is surrender. And that is religion. That religion is being taught in the Bhagavad-gītā:

sarva-dharmān parityajya
mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ… ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo
mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucah
(BG 18.66)

What is the translation?

Pradyumna: “Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reaction. Do not fear.”

Prabhupāda: So, we suffer for our sinful activities, so we should surrender to God and stop our sinful activities. It is not that because I have surrendered to God so I can go on continue with my sinful activity, God will give me protection. No, that is not. You stop—no more sinful activities. Of course, anyone who has surrendered to God, he cannot indulge in sinful activities. Because he will abide by the orders of God, he cannot be sinful: yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā

(SB 5.18.12)

If anyone is fully surrendered, then he has got all the good qualities of the demigods:

sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ

Surāḥ means “the demigods in higher planetary systems.” Devatā. They have got very good qualities, so in the devotee all the good qualities manifest. That is the test. We cannot find any fault with a devotee because everything is good qualities.

And on the contrary:

harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇā

One who is not a devotee, surrendered soul, he has no good quality.

manorathenāsati dhāvato bahiḥ

By his mental speculation he will simply be materially attached. That is the distinction between devotee and non-devotee. For devotee there is no more mental speculation. So, one decision: “I am surrendered to Kṛṣṇa.” That’s all. Go on.

Then follow the words of Kṛṣṇa:

manmanā bhava mad-bhakto
mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru
mām evaiṣyasi
(BG 9.34)

(aside) Find that verse.

Pradyumna:

manmanā bhava mad-bhakto
mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru
mām evaiṣyasi yuktvaivam
ātmānaṁ mat-parāyaṇaḥ
(BG 9.34)

Prabhupāda: Hm.

Pradyumna: “Engage your mind always in thinking of Me, offer obeisances and worship Me. Being completely absorbed in Me, surely you will come to Me.”

Prabhupāda: This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Always thinking of Kṛṣṇa. Our process is chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare, and hearing. This is manmanā—always thinking of Kṛṣṇa. And then worshipping the Deity in the temple. Manmanā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ, mad-yājī—worshipping Me. Hm. So, we have got daily class, daily worship, all the devotees they take part. They have got 24 hours engagement. So, mind cannot be diverted from Kṛṣṇa. That is manmanā. Somehow or other he is thinking of Kṛṣṇa—“Now I have to go to preach there, I have to make him member, or I’ll have to lecture there.” Or here also, “Now there is ārati, now there is bhoga, now there is class.” In this way they are engaged thinking of Kṛṣṇa 24 hours. Manmanā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru.

You have seen our books?

Father Simon: I’ve seen some of your, your books—yes.

Prabhupāda: You can show our books.

Father Simon: You have services at the same times of the day, every day, do you—when you all come together for worship?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Father Simon: And prayer. Yes.

Prabhupāda: We have got…

Father Simon: Yes, impressed.

Prabhupāda: From morning 4 o’clock to night 10 o’clock, we have got engagements.

Father Simon: Hm.

Prabhupāda: We are publishing all these books in all important languages.

Father Simon: Yes.

Prabhupāda: English, German, French, Spanish, Japanese, Chinese. And in India—Hindi, Bengali, Gujarati—as far as possible, we are publishing in all the languages.

Father Simon: You have your own printing press?

Prabhupāda: Yes. But they are not printed in our press.

Father Simon: Hm.

Prabhupāda: They are printed in Japan.

Father Simon: In Japan?

Prabhupāda: We cannot print so nicely. (Laughter) Now we are going to print in Germany also; here is the dummy.

Father Simon: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Revaténandana: We are also printing in England. We have done our first magazine in England recently.

Prabhupāda: Yes. We are expanding. And we are selling our books also very nicely. Yes. In America we are selling on the average about $3,000 daily. Is it not?

Revaténandana: I think so.

Pradyumna: At least.

Prabhupāda: Yes. In Los Angeles alone, we are collecting $1,000, and similarly, in New York.

Pradyumna: In New York also.

Prabhupāda: And taking all other places, not less than $3,000 daily.

Father Simon: Lord Caitanya was the founder of your movement originally.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Kṛṣṇa was the founder 5,000 years ago. The founder—Kṛṣṇa is the founder and it is coming from time immemorial. Because God is origin, so you cannot find out in which date it begins. But from historical point of view, this movement was started by Kṛṣṇa 5,000 years ago when Kṛṣṇa was present. Otherwise, Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, 4th chapter, that He instructed this philosophy formally to the sun god. Now if you take that, it becomes 40 millions or 400 millions of years ago. He spoke to the sun god. So, apart from that, that is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā:

imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ
proktavān aham avyayam
(BG 4.1)

Vivasvate—vivasvate means “the president of the sun planet”—Vivasvān. He is the present president of the sun planet. Or King. There must be one predominator in every planet. So, the name of the person who is predominating in the sun planet is Vivasvān. So, from the historical point of view, this philosophy was instructed to sun god over 400 millions of years ago. And apart from that, if we take the history of modern age, 5,000 years ago when the battle of Kurukṣetra took place, He instructed. So, from the last 5,000 years it is coming, but sometimes it is misinterpreted, the lineage is broken. Therefore, again somebody comes on behalf of Kṛṣṇa, he makes adjustment.

Similarly, 500 years ago, the same movement was rejuvenated by Caitanya Mahāprabhu. And we are also following these same footsteps, we are trying to preach this same cult in the Western countries. Now, since 1966, but the movement is very old. It is not that we have started a new movement. No. The same thing which was spoken 400 millions of years ago to the sun god. The same thing which was spoken by Kṛṣṇa to Arjuna, and the same thing which was rejuvenated by Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu, we are presenting the same thing. And the proof is that either 400 millions of years ago or 5,000 years ago, Kṛṣṇa says, “Surrender unto Me.” That’s all. And we are preaching surrender to Kṛṣṇa, so where is the difference? We are speaking the same thing. Either it was spoken 400 millions of years ago or 5,000 years ago, there is no change in the movement. We do not say, “Now we have advanced so much, there is no need of surrendering to Kṛṣṇa, you can go on with your own work.” (laughter)

We don’t say that. We say the same thing, repetition of the same thing. Therefore, it is called disciplic succession—we don’t change. How it can be changed? God is eternal, we are also eternal, our relationship is eternal. Therefore, the service must be eternal, there is no question of change. Everything is eternal:

nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām
eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān
(Kaṭha Upaniṣads 2.2.13)

These are the statements of the Vedas, and the Bhagavad-gītā also:

ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo
mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate
iti matvā bhajante māṁ
budhā bhāva-samanvitāḥ
(BG 10.8)

In the Vedānta (1.1.2) also it is said: janmādy asya yataḥ. In Bhāgavata (1.1.1) also it is said: ah, oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya janmādy asya yataḥ. The same thing is there in every Vedic literature:

vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyaṁ
(BG 15.15)

By studying Vedas, one has to understand what is Kṛṣṇa, so anyone who takes Kṛṣṇa as He speaks about Himself, then his knowledge is perfect.

Because what Kṛṣṇa says—that is perfect. Perfect means in any statement where there is no mistake, there is no illusion, there is no cheating. And there is no imperfectness of the senses—that is perfect statement. Our so-called knowledge is gathered by the imperfect senses; our senses are not perfect. Unless we hear about the sun planet, if we see the sun planet by our eyes—direct perception—we see just like a disc. But when you take authoritative statement from geologist and others, then you understand that it is so many times bigger than this earth. Therefore, direct perception of the sun globe is not perfect.

So, nowadays there are so many scientific theories, philosophical. They authorise, “I think; I think, in my opinion.” But he does not think that he is imperfect—what is the value of his opinion? He does not think so. What is the value of his thinking if he is imperfect? And that is a fact, our senses are not perfect. I am proud of possessing these eyes, but I cannot understand anything if I see a thing from distant place, neither I can see the nearest eyeball or the eyelid. So, there are conditions. There is no light—I cannot see. So, I see under conditions. So, what is the perfection? But they write books, “I think, I see.” But what you see, nonsense? What is the value of your eyes? That is the defect. But God has no such defects, therefore whatever He says is perfect.

vedāhaṁ samatītāni

(aside:) Find out this verse, vedāhaṁ samatītāni.

Pradyumna:

vedāhaṁ samatītāni
vartamānāni cārjuna
bhaviṣyāṇi ca bhūtāni
māṁ tu veda na kaścana
(BG 7.26)

Prabhupāda: Hm.

Pradyumna: “O Arjuna, as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, I know everything that has happened in the past, all that is happening in the present, and all things that are yet to come. I also know all living entities; but Me no one knows.”

Prabhupāda: So, we should take knowledge from the person who knows the past, present and future. I may not know it because I am imperfect, but He knows me. So, our business is to receive knowledge from the Supreme Perfect, then our knowledge is perfect.

Father Simon: I see in one of these books you talk about the beauty of God.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Father Simon: Is this a theme that is important in your spirituality—that God reveals Himself as immensely beautiful and attractive?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Father Simon: So that when you begin to see Him…

Prabhupāda: Yes. God means He must be all-attractive.

Father Simon: Yes.

Prabhupāda: All-attractive. His beauty must be. There are attractive features we can experience in this material world. If a man is very rich, he is attractive. If a man is very learned scholar, he is attractive. If a man is very strong, he is attractive. If a man is very beautiful, he is attractive. So, these are the attractive features. There are six kinds of attractive features—wealth, beauty, strength, influence, knowledge, renunciation; like that. So, God is endowed with all these attractive features—in full. That is the statement of the Vedas:

aiśvaryasya samagrasya
vīryasya yaśasaḥ śriyaḥ
jñāna-vairāgyayoś caiva
sarvam iti bhagaṅganā
(Viṣṇu Purāṇa 6.5.47)

Bhagavān—God’s, the etymological expression of God is Bhagavān. Bhaga means “opulences.” Nobody can be richer than Him, nobody can be wiser than Him, otherwise how God is great? Great in every respect—either in riches or in beauty or in knowledge or in reputation or in strength or in renunciation—everything. He must be the great. Nobody can be richer than God. In India, there is a rascal—he makes like this little gold. Some yogic mystic power, now he has become God.

Revatīnandana: Makes what?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Devotees: Gold.

Prabhupāda: Yes, he will show some magic, take a little gold. It will not stay, but by this he has become God.

Devotee: He claims to have become God.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Devotee: He claims to become God.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He claims, but there are fools, and they accept also. So I say that if gold making is the qualification of God, then why shall I take this man as God? I shall take that man who has created gold mines. If that is the qualification of God. So, God has created this material world, and each and every planet there are millions and millions of goldmines. All over the universe. So why shall I take this cheat-man—as God? Why not the big man who has created the goldmines, if that is the qualification of becoming God. Come to logic, eh? So, these things are going on, especially in India, they made so many (laughter)… There are so many rascals, they are claiming, and now here one rascal has come—another.

Revaténandana: Yeah, he says this… His followers say, "When I take the secret session, they touch my eyes and I, I see some light. Nobody else can see," right. But they say, "I can see some light, therefore He is God."

Prabhupāda: Who knows that you see?

Revaténandana: What about this light?

Prabhupāda: Then you say that you have seen, but nobody says…

Revaténandana: Nobody else can see. You know (laughs).

Prabhupāda: Then what nonsense God you are?

Revaténandana: Yeah. But what a little, what a very little bit of light, you see. Everybody can see the sun (laughs).

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Revaténandana: There is so much light.

Prabhupāda: But there are rascals, they follow like that. What can be done? God is so cheap that because he has seen some light, he has become God. Just see. What light he sees, nobody knows, and he says, “Nobody can see.” Then where is the confirmation? Who can say you’re actually seeing or not? So, this bluffing is going on. But when the real God is there, they are not accepting. Who is accepted by stalwart scholars, leading personality, ācāryas—that is not accepted. Somebody says, “I have seen some light, I am God”; therefore, he is accepted. Cheap-god.

God says here that the whole universal material creation is resting in one fourth energy:

ekāṁśena sthito jagat
athavā bahunaitena kiṁ jñātena tavārjuna
viṣṭabhyāham idaṁ kṛtsnam
ekāṁśena sthito jagat
(BG 10.42)

(aside) Find out this verse.

Pradyumna: Athavā bahunaitena?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Pradyumna:

athavā bahunaitena
kiṁ jñātena tavārjuna
viṣṭabhyāham idaṁ kṛtsnam
ekāṁśena sthito jagat
(BG 10.42)

“But what need is there, Arjuna, for all this detailed knowledge? With a single fragment of Myself, I pervade and support this entire universe.”

Revaténandana: That’s at the end of the tenth chapter.

Prabhupāda: Oh, it is tenth chapter.

Revaténandana: Tenth chapter, at the end of it, yeah.

Father Simon: Detailed knowledge.

Prabhupāda: Hm.

Father Simon: I think leads people closer to God, doesn’t it? Saint Teresa, one of the great Christian Saints, waged a lifelong campaign against people who knew a little and thought they knew everything. And she had a great belief in real learning because her experience of really learned priests was that even though they perhaps haven’t experienced much themselves, because they were really learning, they had a large understanding of what God could do and so were open to recognize His acts. But the semi-lettered people—she called them “the half-educated people”—who have got a little bit of knowledge and then think, “This is it, I know everything.” They are the people who push everybody along a narrow little road and saying, “This is the way.” (chuckles)

Prabhupāda: This is that. Anyone who is claiming that he has knowledge, he must receive the knowledge from the perfect.

Father Simon: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Otherwise, his knowledge is not perfect.

Father Simon: Well, real knowledge is always very humble in some ways.

Prabhupāda: Yes, always. Real knowledge is received from the perfect. Our process is that we accept knowledge in the descending process—not by the ascending process. There are two kinds of ways. By speculation, just like they are trying to know the sun, the moon—they are trying to go there. This is ascending process. Ascending process. But there is another process—descending process. The knowledge comes from the moon, from the sun, from other planets. But that is perfect knowledge, because that knowledge is coming from a person who actually resides—that is perfect knowledge. And because my speculative power is limited, therefore, I cannot understand anything by this speculative knowledge.

Revaténandana: Even scriptures. If I study a scripture in the same way, I’ll try to understand it by my potency…

Father Simon: Yeah.

Revaténandana: I can make mistakes; I will make mistakes.

Father Simon: Yes, scripture speaks with its own authority. And it is indirect… (indistinct)

Revaténandana: If I don’t—I don’t hear, I don’t understand such good authority.

Father Simon: I’ve suffered a lot from scripture scholars (chuckles) who are too clever to believe. And not clever (mumble)…

Prabhupāda: No. When there is no speculative knowledge, there is no question of belief. It is fact. There is a verse in Brahma-saṁhitā:

panthās tu koṭi-śata-vatsara-sampragamyo
vāyor athāpi manaso muni-puṅgavānām
so 'py asti yat prapada-sīmny avicintya-tattve
govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi
(Bs. 5.34)

Now there is kingdom of God—every scripture, every religion accepts. Now if you want to find out where is that kingdom of God… So:

panthās tu koṭi-śata-vatsara-sampragamyo

The modern scientist says that to go to the highest planetary system it will take 40,000 of years. Now if you want to go to the spiritual kingdom which is far beyond this material world, so how you will go there? Because you cannot finish this material world even by 40,000 of years. You’re not going to live even 40 hundreds of years—or 40 years nowadays (chuckles).

So, I will finish this material span—40,000 years—then we have to… So far, we have got information: the universe is covered by layers of five elements—earth, air, water, stock (?). So each layer is ten times more than the other layer. So, you have to penetrate through that, then you come to the spiritual sky. Then there is spiritual planets, and the highest planet is called Goloka Vṛndāvana, where Kṛṣṇa lives.

So therefore, if we want to go there by our own endeavour, then the Brahma-saṁhitā says:

panthās tu koṭi-śata-vatsara-sampragamyo

If you travel millions of years to go to that planet with the speed of mind and air, still it will be unknown to you. This is ascending process. But when Kṛṣṇa comes, He gives the information:

na tatra bhāsayate sūryo na śaśāṅko na pāvakaḥ
yad gatvā na nivartante…

(aside) Find out. Tad dhāma paramaṁ.

It is the information.

Pradyumna:

na tad bhāsayate sūryo
na śaśāṅko na pāvakaḥ
yat gatvā na nivartante
tad dhāma paramaṁ mama
(BG 15.6)

“That abode of Mine is not illumined by the sun or moon, nor by electricity. One who reaches it never returns to this material world.”

Prabhupāda: So, there is a place where there is no need of illumination by sunlight or moonlight—it is self-illuminated. Just like we, the sun planet here, we have got one instance. The sun does not require any illumination, the planet itself is light. Similarly, the spiritual sky all the planets there—Vaikuṇṭha-loka—they are self-illuminating, there is no darkness. Therefore, this material world is called tamaḥ. Tamaḥ means “darkness.” Tamasi mā jyotir gamaḥ (Bṛhad-āraṇyaka Upaniṣad 1.3.28). The Vedic instruction is don’t remain in this dark world—it is by nature dark, therefore it requires this electricity. The sun, the moon… but there is another world which is self-illuminating—there is no need of… That is there stated,

na tad bhāsayate sūryo
na śaśāṅko na pāvakaḥ
yat gatvā na nivartante
tad dhāma paramaṁ mama
(BG 15.6)

So, we have to take knowledge in that way. There is spiritual world, here is the description. There are other descriptions also in Bhāgavatam. The spiritual world. There is also aeroplane, everything is there—but they are all spiritual. Here everything is material. Giving the best service to the human society—that, yat gatvā na nivartante—just try to go to that place wherefrom you haven’t got to return again. You live there eternally with full knowledge and bliss, and this is our business. And we are not manufacture this ideas—they are all stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. We are simply distributing that knowledge.

Revatīnandana: Everybody else is trying to enjoy the prison house.

Prabhupāda: Hah!

Revatīnandana: And we are leaving (laughs).

Prabhupāda: We are kicking your… (Laughter) Kicking this nonsense, what is this? Duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam (BG 8.15). It is duḥkhālayam. Kṛṣṇa says: ābrahma-bhuvanāl lokāḥ—even if you go to the highest planet. You may get a duration of life—millions of years. But that does not mean you become eternal, that is not possible: ābrahma-bhuvanāl lokāḥ punar āvartino 'rjuna. If you are actually serious of having eternal life, blissful and full of knowledge—then you must go back to home, back to Godhead. That is possible: mad-yājino 'pi yānti mām (BG 9.25)—my devotees go, come there, here. What is that?

Pradyumna:

ābrahma-bhuvanāl lokāḥ
punar āvartino 'rjuna
mām upetya tu kaunteya
punar janma na vidyate
(BG 8.16)

“From the highest planet in the material world down to the lowest, all are places of misery wherein repeated birth and death take place. But one who attains to My abode, O son of Kuntī, never takes birth again.”

Prabhupāda: That’s it. So why not try for this? There is another verse: yānti deva-vratā devān pitṝn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ, bhūtējyā yānti bhūtāni mad-yājino 'pi yānti mām

Pradyumna:

yānti deva-vratā devān
pitṝn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ
bhūtāni yānti bhūtējyā
yānti mad-yājino 'pi mām
(BG 9.25)

“Those who worship the demigods will take birth among the demigods; those who worship ghosts and spirits will take birth among such beings; those who worship ancestors go to the ancestors; and those who worship Me will live with Me.”

Prabhupāda: That’s all. So why should I go, waste my time to go to the ghosts and ancestor and demigod—why not go to Kṛṣṇa? Because I have to work for that, so why not work for the best? This is our function. It is clearly stated that you, if you prepare for going to the higher… Not in this way that I have got a sputnik, I shall go. No. That is not possible. You have to prepare yourself to go to the moon planet, to the sun planet, to the Venus. There are innumerable—you can go there, to the Brahma-loka planet, yānti deva-vratā devān. So, you have to prepare in this life. Similarly, if you want to go to the pitṛ-loka and other places—you have to prepare. And if you prepare yourself to come to My place—you can come. So, what will be my duty—so why not work for going back to Kṛṣṇa’s place? That is intelligence. I have to work for going somewhere—if somebody says you can take ticket either for moon planet or sun planet or Vaikuṇṭha planet. Then what ticket I shall take? Give me the Vaikuṇṭha ticket (laughter). Why shall I take the sun planet or moon planet? This is intelligence—why shall I waste my time again? Give me that ticket. So, this is intelligence.

Devotee: And you take the ticket by surrendering.

Prabhupāda: Eh? Yes. Ticket is distributed free. Kṛṣṇa coming—“take this ticket.” His devotees are coming—“take this ticket.” But we are—“no, we shall rot here,” that’s all. That is my determination.

Revatīnandana: What do you think about this being born and dying again and again? This is the assumption in this whole discussion now. This is…

Father Simon: Well, it isn’t necessarily a… I mean the basic assumption is that man is made for eternal life. And from that point of view, temporal life is prison. And one of the medieval definitions of hell is “unending time.” Which I think is quite good—that this is the…

Revatīnandana: He says one of the medieval definitions of hell is “unending time.” And unending time always to be in the conception of time.

Father Simon: Hm.

Revatīnandana: That’s very nice.

Father Simon: And I don’t… Christian don’t believe that we have one after another bodily existence here. But I think the practical point is the same, isn’t it? That our business here on earth is to learn how to be citizens of heaven.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Father Simon: And I think that, I mean just as we would say…

Prabhupāda: What is the description of heaven? Is there any description?

Father Simon: Well, all kinds of descriptions of heaven. They’re—they are just pictures. One is very like one that you have mentioned where you don’t need the sun or the moon because God is their light and “let us walk in the light of the Lord.”

Prabhupāda: Then heaven means kingdom of God?

Father Simon: Kingdom of God.

Devotee: Hm.

Revaténandana: Sometimes.

Devotee: Yes.

Father Simon: Yes.

Revaténandana: Some, sometimes it is deceived (?) in that way.

Prabhupāda: We have got our Vedic description. The standard of living—very, very high.

Revaténandana: Sometimes it’s…

Prabhupāda: Duration of life—very long. For 10,000 years of the… Everything is very nice or nicer, better than this place. But that is not spiritual. You can live for 10,000 years but in the spiritual world there is no such thing, you live eternally. Na nivartante (BG 15.6), one does not come. So heavenly planet is also temporary because this universe will be annihilated, there will be dissolution of the whole universe. At that time this heavenly planets also will be dissolved. So that is not permanent. That is the conception of heavenly:

kṣīṇe puṇye punaḥ martya-lokaṁ viśanti
svarga-lokaṁ martya-lokaṁ
(BG 9.21)

The standard of living may be very high but that is not permanent residence. Therefore, Kṛṣṇa says: mad-dhāma gatvā, punar janma na vidyate (BG 8.16). So, as we are eternal, we must return to eternal world and that is perfection of life. Why should we remain in this temporary life and accept repetition of birth and death?

dehino 'smin yathā dehe
kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā
tathā dehāntaraṁ-prāptir
(BG 2.13)

Dehāntaraṁ-prāptir—they are accepting another body. So, this transmigration of the soul, accepting another body, is very risky. I do not know what kind of body I am going to take next. But if I prepare in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but Kṛṣṇa says that you can come back.

janma karma me divyam
yo jānāti tattvataḥ
tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma
naiti mām eti…
(BG 4.9)

So, if you follow Kṛṣṇa’s instruction in devotional service, then you are confident that you are going to Kṛṣṇa. Go back to home, back to God.

Father Simon: I’m glad to hear you say that because I think a lot of Westerners have a very wrong idea of Eastern teaching on this and think that it means that you don’t have to bother because if you don’t get there in this life you have another life and another life and you will get there one day.

Prabhupāda: So why do they think wrong?

Father Simon: I was thinking…

Prabhupāda: Is that right? They are right to even think…

Father Simon: I think that is a very wrong doctrine.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Father Simon: I think that is a very wrong doctrine.

Prabhupāda: Which one?

Father Simon: A very dangerous doctrine.

Prabhupāda: Which one?

Father Simon: That you can forget about, you needn’t worry if you don’t get there this time, you’ll get there next time. Because since we, all the real spiritual teaching says you have got your chance now.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Father Simon: And you must take it now (chuckles).

Prabhupāda: That chance is always, the chance is always there.

Father Simon: Yes, but as you say it, transmigration is a risky (chuckles), a risky business.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, risky business…

Father Simon: There is no reason to suppose it’s going to be (indistinct)…

Prabhupāda: Because if one does not know what kind of body he is going to get next life. Is it not risky?

Father Simon: And if you keep putting off the time, then you will make it harder.

Revaténandana: If you keep putting off spiritual life you are making it harder and harder to take to it.

Prabhupāda: That is risky, that I am saying.

Devotee: Process (indistinct).

Prabhupāda: That is risky. If you become Kṛṣṇa conscious and prepare yourself for going back to home, back to Godhead, that is not risky. But if you remain in darkness, you do not know… Karmīs, they do not know. They are working hard just like hogs and dogs without knowing any future of life. Their life is very risky. They do not know. How they’ll may transmigrate from this body to another body. Therefore, their life is risky. One who has understood this fact that there is life after death and if I try for it, I can go to the kingdom of God—so let me try for this—his life is not risky, his life is… One who is in darkness, he does not know what is happening next. He’s risky, his life is risky.

Brother Roger: This is also clear, my lord, that this, the use of this body now is a privilege—surely.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Brother Roger: And that surely this (indistinct)…

Prabhupāda: This is the only body…

Brother Roger: …you transmigrate…

Prabhupāda: Where you can, when you can prepare for going back to home, back to Godhead. In the next life you get a body of a cat or dog, then for millions of years you have no knowledge. Then you have to again make progress… Evolve from dog to cat, or cat to dog, like that there is evolutionary process. So, it will take millions and millions of again to come to this human form of life. And again, coming in the human form of life, if you don’t prepare yourself for going back to home, back to Godhead—then you are missing the chance. Nature gives you the chance. Now you have got this body, you take information how to go back to home, back to Godhead and prepare yourself and be happy. But if you don’t take advantage of it, we remain like cats and dogs—then you are missing. If you again become entangled with sinful activities, then you are missing the chance.

Father Simon: It’s always that very simple invitation of God’s grace, isn’t it?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Father Simon: That every man (indistinct). He is saying “come to me…”

Prabhupāda: God is reminding, He’s canvassing, He’s canvassing: sarva-dharmān parityajya mām etī (BG 18.66)—you come to Me.

Father Simon: Hm.

Prabhupāda: You take shelter of Me, I will give you all protection. But we won’t take.

Father Simon: As we have it in the Christian scriptures, the Lord waits to be gracious, to (indistinct).

Prabhupāda: Yes, He’s already gracious. He’s coming Himself. He is sending His devotee, He’s sending His representative, He’s leaving the book—you study. He is giving the instruction, every way God is helping us. He is sitting within your heart, He’s giving you good counsel, but we are determined not to accept anything of God. So that life is very risky. Now in the Bhagavad-gītā we understand:

tathā dehāntaraṁ-prāptir
(BG 2.13)

We have to change this body to another body. Now, that body—we can see there are so many billions and trillions of varieties of body. At least according to śāstra, 8,400,000. So, we may enter any of them—according to our work.

karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa
jantur dehopapattaye
(SB 3.31.1)

We are preparing next body by our karma. We have been given the chance of human form of body to understand God, but if we do not do that, if we remain like cats and dogs, then the next life again become cats and dogs. After all, we have to accept another body. The soul is eternal. When this body is useless, no more fit for living, I have to give it up and take another body. That is given:

vāsāṁsi jīrṇāni yathā vihāya
(BG 2.22)

Just like we put on some dress, garment. When it is not fit, we throw it away, we take another garment. So, this body is also like that. (indistinct) (End)

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