770424 - Conversation - Bombay

Conversations by Date, 1977

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

 Listen to a 'Nectar Drop' created from this lecture

770424ME-BOMBAY - April 24, 1977 - 127:02 Minutes

Prabhupāda: Kartikeya aaya nahi? (Kartikeya did not come?) He's your son? No.

Mr. Dwivedi: No, he's my nephew.

Prabhupāda: Nephew. Good boy.

Mr. Dwivedi: And he's his brother-in-law. I came with one request and also a suggestion, if that is appealable to Your Holiness. When I had been there in the night at home I has pondered a little, and I thought I am on very good terms with Mr. Jatti; easily approachable for me. Even in spite of the ministerial crisis on the 22nd, he met me. On the 21st evening I went to Vṛndāvana. So I saw the, our Mr. President, Akṣaya Mahārāja. He wanted me to stay. I said, "No, I am going away. I'm going with Mr. Jatti for tomorrow." And I think if he is just a little free from government engagements, he would like to preside or inaugurate this function, and I would call it by the inauguration of the Krishna Consciousness Society branch in the state of Madhya Pradesh and at this place. And therefore, as soon as I'll get permission from Your Holiness, I shall try to contact him tonight on telephone.

Prabhupāda: It is . . . I think it is a good proposal. If President comes, it must be successful. A very good chance.

Mr. Dwivedi: So if I have your permission, I'll do this.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. I . . . for mine, that . . . you told that, "You gain your weight, increase your weight." That induced me.

Mr. Dwivedi: The very fact that Your Holiness will be going there, that has manifold increased our . . . we are not worried about that.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Then accept. Then accept.

Mr. Dwivedi: As the saying goes in Rāmāyaṇa, sevaka sādhana svāmī avagamanu, maṅgalun amaṅgala harlun.

Prabhupāda: And you are inviting Mr. Jatti. It is good opportunity. Let us . . .

Mr. Dwivedi: Failing that . . . if, somehow or other, he's not free . . . because time is short, and if Jatti says yes, then I have to go to the Chief Minister, because on previous occasion I told him I wanted him on a particular function. He said: "You do this. Then get this straight. Otherwise the president of our league becomes expensive, so the expenditure will go over the head of the state." He showed me the way. So then immediately after, he said: "Yes." Then I, right from Delhi itself, I made a telephone call to the Chief Minister, and I said: "Such and such appealing, Mr. Jatti is going, and I want to be present in the matter, and I request you also that you should please participate."

Prabhupāda: Now the Chief Minister . . .

Mr. Dwivedi: Is Mr. Sukla there. Because then they'll have to make other arrangements.

Prabhupāda: Sukla?

Mr. Dwivedi: Yes. Camartan Sukla.

Prabhupāda: Oh. He was a Kanpur man?

Mr. Dwivedi: Pardon?

Prabhupāda: He's a Kanpur man?

Mr. Dwivedi: No. Originally they might be coming from Kanpur, but now from Raipur. He's younger brother of this Vidya Charan, who was Broadcasting Minister. And in fact, even I'll . . . if I get . . . one of our workers is already there. I got happily a letter yesterday. So the principal of the college is going to Bhopal, and if I can contact him somewhere if he is unavailable on telephone . . .

Prabhupāda: Bhopal is the capital.

Mr. Dwivedi: Bhopal is the capital.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We had a big function in Bhopal, my party, for about ten days a few years ago.

Mr. Dwivedi: And then I also desire, since Your Holiness is going, that press should be briefed right from Bombay. Why should I wait from Gwalior . . . because I expect some people a few hundred miles off from Gwalior will also be traveling up to meet Your Holiness. So if they know beforehand in papers from Bombay it will be better. Therefore I have requested my friend Mr. Goswami to give me two or three blocks. If it comes out that way, for our purposes also, he'll need it, and here also I shall try to meet correspondence to one or two papers there, that they should ready to send their representatives over there, that way.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Supposing that Mr. Jatti is not available, do you have some second choice?

Mr. Dwivedi: Then my second choice will be on Mr. Nanda. Mr. Nanda also knows me.

Prabhupāda: Nanda knows me very well. Nanda . . .

Mr. Dwivedi: He also knows me, and he wanted to start a yogāśrama over there but for himself, and he had a mind.

Prabhupāda: I don't think . . . if Jatti does not come, then don't attend from any other.

Mr. Dwivedi: And Jatti will be the best, definitely.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Mr. Dwivedi: Jatti will be the best.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda's idea is that unless . . .

Mr. Dwivedi: So Nanda I'll drop. Only if Mr. Jatti comes, all right.

Prabhupāda: That's all, yes. Otherwise, let us go . . .

Mr. Dwivedi: And for your stay for the night I'm giving a call today to the Birla brothers at Gwalior, and if their guesthouse is free, then I will try to accommodate you there for the night. Of course, all this means little more spending of the petrol, but that is inevitable. We'll have to spend it. There is no go . . .

Prabhupāda: That doesn't matter.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No.

Mr. Dwivedi: There is no go out of it.

Kartikeya: No, they are more comfortable

Mr. Dwivedi: Because if we are going to Mr. Jatti, though there is plane service, but plane reaches spending in two days. Therefore I will not take up the plane. If he says yes, I'll have to take a car, see him, come back, return in about twelve hours' time—five hours to go to Delhi, five hours to come back, and another two hours just to meet him, straightaway only meeting him. Even if he says yes, then also, before I leave my place, I will once again confirm him on telephone that, "I am stopping on such and such time, and you give me another two hours' margin if something goes wrong with the car."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How he will go there?

Mr. Dwivedi: Pardon?

Prabhupāda: Car.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Mr. Jatti will go to Gwalior by car?

Kartikeya: No, they leave from . . .

Mr. Dwivedi: Gwalior . . . Gwalior I may be going by train, but it is just possible that I am asking this young man, my cousin, if he kindly accompanies me, to share part of my work in order to get things done, if he can take his car. I don't have a car. So I am requesting him. If he can spare about a week's time, he'll be a great help because . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, he will do the . . .

Mr. Dwivedi: . . . the installation will of electricity . . .

Prabhupāda: He's young man. He can work.

Mr. Dwivedi: If tomorrow I'm meeting . . . Mr. Mondalia is coming tomorrow, and if I can only meet him, then I'm asking him . . . I think he'll give us a thousand meters of electric wire, another two-three hundred bulbs. So I'll not have to spend anything. Only I have to take it and put things over there.

Prabhupāda: Mondalia knows our movement.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Which Mondalia are you meeting?

Mr. Dwivedi: D. P. Mondalia, I mean.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: D. P . . .

Mr. Dwivedi: D. P. Mondalia.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's our good member and everything.

Mr. Dwivedi: Very good man.

Prabhupāda: The son or the father?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All three, the father and S.P. Shanti Prasad . . . he's our member also.

Mr. Dwivedi: S.P. is father.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: D.P. is also our member and S.P. and Ashok, their grandson, is also a member. All three men are . . .

Mr. Dwivedi: So I know D.P. more than S.P. though I know father and son both, and including their wives. They have been participating in our functions.

Prabhupāda: No, they are very nice.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very nice.

Prabhupāda: Very nice.

Mr. Dwivedi: Even here we had a dramatic performance in aid of Rural India in which one of the ministers, Mr. Yajni, provided, and Patel also was there, and Mr. D. P. Mondalia was one of the chief guests over there. And otherwise also, I get lot of help from D.P. So I expect him tomorrow, and if I meet him . . . normally what happens is he sees me the next day of his coming. But I'll try to press upon him, if I meet him tomorrow, then also most of my . . .

Prabhupāda: (aside) You want to talk?

Mr. Dwivedi: . . . the difficulty will be solved.

Prabhupāda: You want to talk with me?

Bhakti-caru: Yeah, I was wondering Ota siddha hoye gecho, ki korbo? (It got boiled. What should I do?)

Prabhupāda: Rate dau. (Give that at night.)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So, as I told you yesterday, as far as you are able, you make arrangements.

Mr. Dwivedi: Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Whatever else you cannot afford, that much we will pay. You don't have to worry like that. You make a nice arrangement.

Mr. Dwivedi: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Don't, you know . . .

Mr. Dwivedi: No, I understand.

Prabhupāda: And you, you get seat in Punjab Mail.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, tomorrow morning we're going.

Prabhupāda: Punjab Mail is best. Punjab Mail.

Indian man (1): Most suitable train.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Mr. Dwivedi: Most suitable train is Punjab Mail. You leave here about four o'clock, quarter past four, and you are at Gwalior round about two o'clock.

Prabhupāda: That's nice.

Indian man: About quarter to two.

Kartikeya: Less than twenty-four hours.

Mr. Dwivedi: Less than twenty-four hours. Twenty-two hours.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Are there any other trains?

Mr. Dwivedi: That . . . you have got the night train, leaving nine o'clock. That is taking you Gwalior at eleven o'clock in the night.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, no, no . . .

Mr. Dwivedi: That is inconvenient.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Punjab must be the best.

Mr. Dwivedi: This is only the best train. Punjab Mail is the best train.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I already told someone to book everything. I've given them all information. Tomorrow morning I'm giving them the money for purchasing the tickets.

Kartikeya: Mr. Jatti's coming here in Bombay 1st of May or 2nd of May to Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan.

Prabhupāda: Who?

Kartikeya: Danappa Jatti.

Mr. Dwivedi: But I . . . I'll have a . . . try and call with him today, and I'll ask him where he may stay. Of course, I would like to meet him.

Prabhupāda: You can also inform him that we are going to organize the village organization according to Gandhi's program.

Mr. Dwivedi: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That is our proposal.

Mr. Dwivedi: He will help me.

Prabhupāda: With spiritual idea.

Mr. Dwivedi: Mr. Jatti, he will also help me with this program.

Prabhupāda: Gandhi's program plus spiritual. Gandhi's program . . .

Mr. Dwivedi: Yes.

Prabhupāda: . . . plus spiritual. Gandhi had no spiritual program; therefore it was a failure. But here that simple living plus spiritual program, that will affect.

Mr. Dwivedi: Just to briefly . . . (indistinct) . . . I have written this . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I can go over that. That's advertising. I can do this with him outside, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Mr. Dwivedi: I have written this letter for you so that . . .

Prabhupāda: You read it.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "To Shree Tamāla Kṛṣṇa Goswami, Hare Krishna Land, Juhu. Dear friend, I am extremely grateful to His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda Guru Mahārāja for giving me his precious few minutes yesterday and your good self for arranging the interview. I request that His Divine Grace be graciously pleased to fix a date for His Divine Grace's visit to Pohri to inaugurate International Krishna Society branch of Madhya Pradesh at Pohri and to revitalize and modernize the rural uplift activities of the Adarsh Seva Sangha. With profound regards, yours fraternally, H. S. Dwivedi."

Prabhupāda: So?

Mr. Dwivedi: So if I get the letter from you . . . in fact, I drafted this letter for you also. You can make necessary changes in it, so if I get it, even a tentative date, that will be convenient for me. I'll be able to approach the press people over here, and they will just spread out the news.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "As per your request and as per interview you had with His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda on 23/4/77, His Divine Grace with his entourage will . . ." (break) . . . is a Thursday. Fifth: the program was to be from 5th to 8th, meant Friday, Saturday, Sunday and Monday. Now, whether these days will be easier for people to attend? Just like your idea is that some people from Gwalior will come and others. My feeling is that they'll have an easier time to come on a Sunday or on a Saturday evening.

Mr. Dwivedi: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But if we arrive on 7th, which is Sunday night, and the program begins on Monday night, then I think it will be all weekdays—Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday—which is . . .

Prabhupāda: There is . . . in the village there is no such consideration.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But his idea was also to invite some of the respectable gentlemen from the neighboring areas, Śrīla Prabhupāda, and they may . . .

Prabhupāda: That is . . .

Mr. Dwivedi: It could be . . . then you . . . if the program should really start on Saturday, er, Sunday . . .

Kartikeya: Thursday.

Mr. Dwivedi: Sunday.

Kartikeya: Saturday. Main on Sunday, but starting on Friday, Saturday.

Mr. Dwivedi: No, you may reach there on Saturday, but program should start on Sunday. Seventh is Sunday.

Prabhupāda: We are starting on Friday, hmm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's . . . no, we were going to start on Wednesday and reach Thursday, and program was to start Friday. Friday evening, Saturday evening, Sunday evening, and Monday evening. Now he's proposing, Mr. Dwivedi's proposing, that we leave here Friday and arrive Saturday evening and that the program begins Sunday evening, Monday evening, Tuesday evening and Wednesday evening. Do you think the extra time is required?

Mr. Dwivedi: Yes, time will be little . . . even whatever little time that we . . . the time is already very short.

Prabhupāda: No, I have no objection.

Mr. Dwivedi: But nothing could be . . . we must have this, this little time.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All right.

Mr. Dwivedi: Because if Mr. Jatti comes, then even it will be difficult for the state government to manage so quickly.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The next question is this—when will you know when Mr. Jatti will be coming?

Mr. Dwivedi: Myself?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: When will you get it confirmed?

Mr. Dwivedi: I think . . . today, 29th . . . 24th, 25th, 26th, 27th . . . on 30th.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So how can we book our tickets? Supposing Mr. Jatti says that, "I'll come on the 12th . . ." We don't know. He's the President of India. Supposing his calendar is only available that he can come by the 12th?

Prabhupāda: No, you can conveniently book. We shall wait.

Kārttikeya: No, it is easily bookable, this . . . for this purpose you go to the Western Central Manager. I know the man.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So my only point is, should we book any specific date until we confirm it from Mr . . . hear it from Mr . . .?

Prabhupāda: No, you . . . suppose tentatively we accept that we shall start a program on Sunday. In that way you book. So if Jatti cannot come, then we shall wait. What is that?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: To me it's nothing, but they have to agree at the railway to change the booking.

Prabhupāda: No, no. There is no need of changing booking. We go there.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, oh. We go, and we wait there.

Prabhupāda: Hmm, hmm.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, that's all right. I have no . . . I mean . . . my point is that the longer we have to book, the better. Not that we change ten days . . .

Prabhupāda: No. Booking should be accepted any day is available.

Kartikeya: We'll wait there only.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that's the best.

Kartikeya: So if that is good, so when we can stay there?

Mr. Dwivedi: You reach there on the 6th. So that 7th morning will be . . . sixth is Saturday. So Saturday you are at Gwalior, and then Sunday you'll be there. Evening program will start.

Prabhupāda: You book whichever date you get convenient. That's all.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda, may I ask you a question?

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If you're going to be traveling for a full day, Friday to Saturday . . .

Prabhupāda: Friday-Saturday?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, you're going to be traveling Friday afternoon and evening and Saturday during the day. Then you're going to get into Gwalior. Probably we'll arrive at the house by five or six at night, evening.

Kartikeya: Three o'clock.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. The train arrives three. You won't reach the house till 4:30 or five, by the time we get out of the train and get to the house. I'm trying to make this following point.

Prabhupāda: No, no . . . from the station how far it is, the house?

Mr. Dwivedi: My place for staying?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Mr. Dwivedi: Not more than two miles.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The point I'm trying to make is simply this, that you're going to be traveling for a full day. The next day, you're going to be traveling for three hours. Whether you're going to feel strong enough to do the program the same evening or whether we should arrive . . .? The program may begin Sunday night, but my point is that we should arrive and you should have enough time to rest before you start preaching that same night. 'Cause I think it's going to be exhausting that you travel all day, then again you travel that morning, and then the same evening you have to give a program for two hours. That's exhausting. Why not let us arrive one day earlier, but the program can begin Sunday, as Mr. Dwivedi's suggesting? But let us arrive a day earlier, so you can you have a little rest there.

Prabhupāda: So earlier means when?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That we arrive . . . my proposal is that instead of arriving on 7th, we will arrive on 6th. Prabhupāda will arrive 6th.

Prabhupāda: Then you'll have to . . .

Mr. Dwivedi: Sixth is what . . .?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sixth is Friday. We will arrive 6th.

Mr. Dwivedi: Sixth is Friday.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But the program may be . . .

Prabhupāda: Then you have to, we have to start on Thursday.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: No, no, no.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No good.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Thursday I cannot.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, right.

Prabhupāda: Thursday end is not good. Then you have to start on Wednesday.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Somehow you should not become exhausted. That's not the purpose of going there, to become worn out. I mean, you know, we have to think practically about how you're feeling also.

Prabhupāda: No, if you start on Friday, we are reaching on Saturday.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right.

Prabhupāda: Then . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Afternoon, Saturday afternoon.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Saturday afternoon.

Prabhupāda: Then we get rest the whole night.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, we get rest for, say, twelve hours' rest. But then you have to travel again to go to Pohri district, which may be exhausting.

Kartikeya: Seventy-five miles.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I can't say what . . . I mean, we don't know. It's a winding road. It may get you tired for traveling.

Prabhupāda: Winding?

Mr. Dwivedi: Not very winding. There are two roads. There are two roads. There is is one road which is little winding. There is another road, but we have to travel eighteen miles more. Not winding, Agra-Bombay road. So there is a straight Agra-Bombay road also. But we have to take an extra eighteen miles more drive.

Kartikeya: Eighty?

Mr. Dwivedi: Eighteen. One-eight.

Prabhupāda: So that is not . . .

Mr. Dwivedi: So we can take either. And even this is not so very zig-zaggy and we are . . . no, not much. Not much.

Prabhupāda: But anyway, we are going to hold session on Sunday.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right.

Prabhupāda: Then? What is the problem?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, my point is that you're going to have to travel Sunday morning to get there, and then hold a function Sunday evening, so whether that's going to be tiring? That's all I'm bringing out.

Prabhupāda: The morning, how many hours?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Travel . . .

Mr. Dwivedi: Three hours.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Three hours.

Prabhupāda: And that's all right.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All right. I've seen it, that three hours' traveling can be very tiring.

Prabhupāda: What do you want to make?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: My proposal is that you should be able to rest before the program begins, sufficient rest.

Kartikeya: You have to go on Wednesday then.

Prabhupāda: Then you arrange for Wednesday.

Mr. Dwivedi: Supposing, say, about what time in the morning we start? If we start about five o'clock, by about eight o'clock you'll get Pohri. And Mahārāja will be having about ten hours' rest.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, it sounds all right.

Mr. Dwivedi: About ten hours' rest.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It sounds all right.

Mr. Dwivedi: About ten hours' rest.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: To you or me, at least.

Mr. Dwivedi: And the function could be minimized according to our convenience. That also.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All right, so let's keep it at that. I mean, I'm not trying to go against everybody. I'm only trying to think for your well-being.

Indian man (1): No, one day better go earlier.

Prabhupāda: No, no, my attendance there . . . actually, kīrtana and other things will be done by you.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: So I'll sit down. That is all.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay.

Prabhupāda: So the most important thing is, if the President is coming, it will be very good starting.

Mr. Dwivedi: I can say I'm not conversant with your physical condition. That's my misfortune. Personally, though, I am very young before you, though I am running sixty-eight. I don't find any difficulty. I go anyway, standing, sitting, and I . . .

Prabhupāda: No, you are quite healthy.

Mr. Dwivedi: I'm quite healthy, by God's grace. Quite healthy by God's grace. And I enjoy better sleep in the train than at home. I'll sleep in the train at will. And usually I make good the deficiency of my sleep in the train.

Prabhupāda: No, sleeping in the train, there is no difficulty.

Kartikeya: No, some people do not get. Because of the movement, some people don't get sleep sometimes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You've slept pretty well whenever we take train.

Kartikeya: (aside) Does he like air-conditioned coach?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (aside) No, he likes the open. He likes open air.

Prabhupāda: So do that.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay.

Prabhupāda: And if I actually feel little healthy, I shall stay there for some time to improve my health.

Mr. Dwivedi: Climate is healthy. That's one thing I could say, Your Holiness.

Prabhupāda: That is healthy.

Mr. Dwivedi: Climate is healthy. Water is healthy.

Prabhupāda: Then let us go there.

Kartikeya: What is the height of the place, from the sea level?

Mr. Dwivedi: Sea level, we are 1700 feet.

Prabhupāda: That's all . . .

Mr. Dwivedi: And then all round about is forest.

Kartikeya: Forest is there.

Mr. Dwivedi: Oh, yes.

Kartikeya: That's good thing.

Mr. Dwivedi: Hardly we can't walk even for, say, half a mile, then forest comes up.

Kartikeya: That is very good thing, not only the height.

Prabhupāda: Forest breeze is very healthy. So let us arrange.

Mr. Dwivedi: This is literally correct. If from the boundary of our school I take a gofen and throw a stone, it will go to the forest next side.

Prabhupāda: So make arrangement.

Mr. Dwivedi: And very near about there are beautiful places. Mahārāja will be able to enjoy them only from below, but we have a Kedara Shakti, a beautiful cave temple.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Mr. Dwivedi: And round about the whole year from the mountain water flows back, water drizzles over a banyan tree and then inside into the mountain . . .

Prabhupāda: There is waterfall?

Mr. Dwivedi: Waterfall. The waterfall is different. This water drizzles from the mountain. Waterfall is five miles away, so I do not count it. They say 150 feet or so, waterfall. But this is . . .

Prabhupāda: How far it is, waterfall?

Mr. Dwivedi: Waterfall is about four or five miles away from our buildings.

Prabhupāda: Oh, that's nothing.

Mr. Dwivedi: But this is . . .

Prabhupāda: Very good atmosphere.

Mr. Dwivedi: This is just a mile or even less than a mile from our colony itself. River there . . . first of all there is river. Your Holiness may not be . . . your Holiness will be able to see it from the riverside. But other people, my friend Gosvāmī, will be able to go up over the mountain. It's not a very . . .

Prabhupāda: And river, river, how far it is, river?

Mr. Dwivedi: Pardon? River, there are two rivers. One river which is a small nulla, but it flows throughout the year, where we have a scheme for starting dairy. So that is actually shaving our school boundary. Then there is another river, where I am talking of the Kedāreśvara temple. This is about a mile or about three-fourth of a mile . . .

Prabhupāda: Good river.

Mr. Dwivedi: . . . distant from our colony. And a fairly big . . . small . . .

Prabhupāda: Cāṇakya Paṇḍita says, or somebody, some authority says, that "In a place whether, where there is no friend, no temple and no river, don't go there."

Mr. Dwivedi: Ah, yes, yes, Mahārāja. That is in Śukravetti. That is in Śukravetti. "Taha na baseere raat, jahan nadi nahi ho vaidya nahi ho aur apna rajya nahi ho. ("Taha na baseere raat", where there is no river, no physician and our state.)

Prabhupāda: Vaidya nahi, nadī, friend and temple. (Not physician, river, friend and temple.)

Mr. Dwivedi: Ho, accha temple wahan bahut accha hai, you would . . . abhi temple bhi hai (Oh! The temple there is very nice, you would . . . now there is a temple also that is) shaving our colony, beautiful temple inside the waters.

Prabhupāda: Our Indian touring means . . .

Kartikeya: River and temple.

Prabhupāda: River and temple. That's all. All our holy places are on the bank of the Ganges, Yamunā, temple.

Kartikeya: Except Bombay. Bombay has no river.

Prabhupāda: Bombay is big river, this . . . (laughter)

Mr. Dwivedi: Has got father of rivers.

Prabhupāda: And the temple is there, Umā devī.

Kartikeya: Father of river is Himalaya.

Mr. Dwivedi: Give any name you like. As friend you may call.

Kartikeya: Father it is not, sāgara.

Mr. Dwivedi: So there is this Kedara Shak . . . Tenkara temple. So many sādhus come there just for taking various kinds of herbs and . . . (indistinct) . . . and they go away. They stay for the night. Ten, fifteen days' halt they make. And there is this beautiful cave-cut temple where throughout the year there is the śiva-liṅga, and on it throughout the year water flows.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Mr. Dwivedi: And inside the temple itself there is little pond, so deep, and we may take any quantity out of it. The water is only that much quantity always there.

Prabhupāda: Good place.

Mr. Dwivedi: So this is a mile's, hardly, less than a mile's distance from our colony. And the river it is perennial river. We have to just cross it, and it gives good passage, particularly during this season. All seasons practically we go and go over the mountain and the temple. Then, on the roadside itself near our colony, there is a water temple. We call it Jagamandir. That is also a beautiful temple. It's like the Amritsar type. And one story of that temple is always in the water. Even in the summer, when Your Holiness will go there, Your Holiness will find. And that is Kṛṣṇa's temple.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Mr. Dwivedi: And some of the photographs which were shown to me yesterday, I find the ditto in that temple, Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa's temple.

Prabhupāda: Good place.

Mr. Dwivedi: This is the . . . I think I got a view of that temple.

Prabhupāda: Good inducement. So Kartikeya, you are coming?

Kartikeya: If you're not going to Kashmir, I'll come with you.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Kartikeya: If you are not going to Kashmir for the month of May . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no.

Kartikeya: . . . then I will come.

Mr. Dwivedi: This is the view of that temple, Mahārāja.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Mr. Dwivedi: This Jagamandir. This is the river temple.

Prabhupāda: Very good temple. Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa?

Mr. Dwivedi: Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa temple. This is near our colony.

Kartikeya: We have a booklet on Pohri. Hindi me likha hai. (It is written in Hindi.) So there is the water all around.

Mr. Dwivedi: All around. And one story is in the water itself. That is not shown in Amritsar all around. But here one story is throughout in the water.

Kartikeya: Is it an old temple or a new temple?

Mr. Dwivedi: Old temple.

Kartikeya: Place is old, but the temple is new.

Mr. Dwivedi: No, not new. Temple is also about two hundred years old. And it has a beautiful story behind it. This was the Manduka Upanishad, this story. So the cashier, he spent the whole treasury in building up this temple. And when the news went to the yajñir-datta . . . then they did not meet very so frequently as they started meeting now in our life. Every six months they try to come over there. So he took a diamond, and the cashier, then he died. Yajñir-datta was very sorry. He gave . . . he granted a yajñir for that family of the temple, about six thousand rupees every . . . a yearly yajñir for this much amount, some land and yajñir and all that. So this is a public temple that way.

Prabhupāda: There is another story like that, Rāma Mandir. In South India. What is that state?

Mr. Dwivedi: And at Gwalior also we have got a beautiful temple of Lord Kṛṣṇa. We call it Sanātana Dharma Mandir.

Prabhupāda: So we shall see that temple.

Mr. Dwivedi: But that is with the only Kṛṣṇa with cakra-sudarśana in His hands.

Prabhupāda: Vāsudeva Kṛṣṇa.

Mr. Dwivedi: Ha, Vāsudeva.

Prabhupāda: That Rāma Mandir, there is story that the treasurer, he spent money. (laughs)

Kartikeya: Spent money.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And the nawab was informed that, "He is spending money from your treasury." Then he, "How is that, you are spending without permission?" So he did not reply. "Yes, I have done." "Then you pay." So he was arrested that, "You misspent, misappropriated this money." Then at night two young men, that "You take the money from us and release him." So he said: "If I get money, I will release them." So when he woke up from dream, he saw the money and took up. But the boys were not there. Then he understood that he's a rāma-bhakta, rāma-darśana. So he immediately called him that, "You are released, and you also take this money, and do your service to Rāmacandra, as you like." Amenaka. Amenaka.

Kartikeya: Amadara?

Prabhupāda: Formerly India was very advanced in devotion.

Mr. Dwivedi: And just near there is moving door, shutting door. It has got nine pillars. If you just push one pillar, the entire structure shifts. And the pity is the archaeological department of government of India has taken no care about it. We had some good statue of Buddha and Mahāvīra and . . . two, three were stolen away. We collected at our own institution. Then ultimately I wrote to government. I said: "Already some statue have been stolen away. You kindly left it wherever you like. We can't protect them from thieves." Just three months back. Then they took away another three statue—one of Viṣṇu, and I think one of Buddha, another of Mahāvīra.

Prabhupāda: Stone?

Mr. Dwivedi: One big, one were stolen. Three . . . I asked government. I asked them three times. Government has not yet taken them away from there. Otherwise we had collected it at our own headquarters and institution.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Deity of Kṛṣṇa?

Mr. Dwivedi: Pardon?

Prabhupāda: No, Buddha.

Mr. Dwivedi: Buddha. And Viṣṇu.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Viṣṇu?

Mr. Dwivedi: You'll find in India, most of the statues, ancient ones, are of Viṣṇu because, perhaps, Viṣṇu is a more ancient Vedic God than Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is the origin . . .

Mr. Dwivedi: I do not know much about it, but that's what I think. And therefore you find more statues of Viṣṇu than Kṛṣṇa. But nobody might be stealing statues of Kṛṣṇa, and He might be still there with His cakra-sudarśana.

Prabhupāda: Tad viṣṇoḥ paramaṁ padam. Ṛg Veda. Viṣṇu . . . oṁ tad viṣṇoḥ paramaṁ padaṁ sadā paśyanti sūrayaḥ. Viṣṇu is the Vedic Supreme Personality of Godhead.

Mr. Dwivedi: Round about Gwalior, there is a good sage, almost, Mahārāja, of your age. And he's a tāntrika-śāstrī and jyotiṣa. He's the founder of Pitambar Pith. That is a Sanskrit school, but otherwise practicing . . .

Prabhupāda: Jatiya is near Gwalior?

Mr. Dwivedi: Not near; forty miles away from Gwalior.

Prabhupāda: One lady lives in Vṛndāvana . . .

Mr. Dwivedi: He has written books also on tantra-śāstra. And I understand most of these ministers, they were going to seek his blessings. I did not know to whom he gave his blessings, but what I know is that most of these people were going to him. I only . . . one day I asked him. He's very kind towards me, so I go to him and I dine with him. So I told him one day, I said, "Mahārāja, you speak to mahatlal people to give some money to our institution." He said: "Mr. Dwivedi, I do not ask any friends or anybody to do anything for me or to anybody." So then I said, "Mahārāja, then I put one question to you if you permit me." He said: "All right, I permit you." So I asked, "Vivekananda has said that 'Service of God . . . service of humanity is service of God.' Do you think it is correct or it is incorrect?" He said: "This is correct." Then I said: "We are running educational institutions. Whatever good or bad, leave that aside. But I think in our own little small way we are rendering little service to humanity. And . . ."

Prabhupāda: But I may interfere. The . . . in the Bhagavad-gītā is there such statement that, "Service to humanity is service to God"? Is there any statement?

Mr. Dwivedi: Daridrāṇāṁ bhara kaunteya . . . I think there is somewhere . . .

Prabhupāda: There is no.

Mr. Dwivedi: But this particular I remember, daridrāṇāṁ bhara kaunteya . . .

Prabhupāda: This is . . . this is wrong theory. Don't maintain this. This is a very wrong theory. Just like "Service to the leaves is service to the root." Is it not wrong? What do you think? A tree, so where the service should be given—to the root or to the leaf?

Mr. Dwivedi: The root.

Prabhupāda: Then why do you say like that? And Kṛṣṇa says openly, mam ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). He doesn't even recommend to worship demigods. Kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ yajanty anya-devatāḥ (BG 7.20). So these are imagination, concoction. They are not authorized. Vivekananda advocated daridra-nārāyaṇa-sevā hundred years ago. So India is full of daridras. What Mothilal can do? What Vivekananda can do? This is all simply concoction. You cannot do anything.

prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni

guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ

ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā

kartāham iti manyate

(BG 3.27)

The nature's law will go on. You cannot make a poor man a rich man, unhappy man a happy man. That is not possible. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu (BG 13.22). Can you make a hog eat halavā instead of stool? Can you make? By nature's way it is going on. Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate (BG 3.27). These are foolish person who concoct ideas. It is not possible. If you can do anything to the human society, induce him to become a Kṛṣṇa devotee.

ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ

mad-bhakteṣv abhidhāsyati

(BG 18.68)

na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu

kaścin me priya-kṛttamaḥ

(BG 18.69)

Kṛṣṇa says. So Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam . . . (BG 18.66). Teach people that, "You take it." That is real benefit. Otherwise you cannot do anything. What you can do?

Indian man: The persons are the root.

Prabhupāda: Yes! Root should be given water.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He says: "Persons are the root."

Kartikeya: Person is the root.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He says: "Persons are the root."

Prabhupāda: No, Kṛṣṇa is the root.

Kartikeya: Kṛṣṇa is the root.

Prabhupāda: Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). This is the Vedānta. Aham ādir hi devānām (BG 10.2), Kṛṣṇa says. So devānām, Brahmā, Viṣṇu, Maheśvara. He is the origin of Brahmā, Viṣṇu, Maheśvara. The root is Kṛṣṇa. Kāraṇam . . . sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam (BS 5.1).

īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ

sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ

anādir ādir govindaḥ

sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam

(BS 5.1)

Root is Kṛṣṇa.

Indian man: The origin.

Prabhupāda: Origin, yes. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mat . . . (BG 10.8). That is the difficulty. You do not read Bhagavad-gītā. You quote Vivekananda; you quote another, another. But Kṛṣṇa is God. That is the cause of misfortune of India. You don't accept Kṛṣṇa as the authority. Everyone accepts, all the great sages formerly—Asita, Devala, Vyāsa. Svayaṁ caiva bravīṣi me. And at the present era, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Nimbārka, Caitanya—all accept, kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān (SB 1.3.28). You don't follow the ācāryas, the authorities, Kṛṣṇa. You bring something else.

Kartikeya: Concoction.

Prabhupāda: That is the misfortune. They have left the authority, real authority. They have accepted some foolish man as authority. And that is the misfortune. Therefore we are presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is, the supreme authority. Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7). Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate (BG 10.8). Why don't you take this? Distortion of our śāstra, distortion of authority, and bringing something foolish, and you are following. Not . . . you cannot follow. That is not possible. It is not possible. But you are making some authorities. You're trying to follow. Even if you follow . . . that, the same example, just like Vivekananda was advocating daridra-nārāyaṇa. First of all this is a concocted word. How Nārāyaṇa can be daridra? People have accepted. Nārāyaṇa is daridra?

Mr. Dwivedi: No.

Prabhupāda: Then how he manufactured this nonsense word? It is insulting. If I say: "Foolish Jatti, President. Rascal," so is it not insult? Similarly, if you say daridra-nārāyaṇa, it is insult to Nārāyaṇa. But people are accepting daridra-nārāyaṇa. Just see how they are misled.

Indian man: They have not even proper knowledge, sir.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Indian man: They have not even proper knowledge.

Prabhupāda: No knowledge. All rascals.

Kartikeya: Not even proper. No knowledge.

Prabhupāda: That is the difficulty. Rascals have become leaders.

Kartikeya: And we follow them.

Indian man: And we have to, actually. It is . . .

Kartikeya: Not we have to. Here is a leader. Why don't you follow him?

Indian man: But when we get the . . . fortunately then we can do so.

Kartikeya: No, fortune is given.

Indian man: Yes.

Kartikeya: He has been doing it for so long.

Indian man: Yes, yes.

Prabhupāda: That is the misfortune of human society. The other thing . . .

Mr. Dwivedi: This also happens by good luck. As Rāmāyaṇa says, vinā hari-kṛpā na mile sat-saṅga. Bhagvan ki daya se hi hota hai. Nahi hota hai? (It happens by the mercy of the Lord, does it not happen?)

Kartikeya: No, that's not . . . you should not worry about a poor people then. You should worry about Kṛṣṇa only. You should serve Him. You should become His devotee.

Prabhupāda: There are . . . poor people, so far concerned, that . . . are we not taking care of the poor people? That is automatically taken. Who is poor? A man who is poor in knowledge, he is poor.

Mr. Dwivedi: That is correct. Yes.

Prabhupāda: Otherwise nobody's poor.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Americans are very rich from . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . material point of view.

Prabhupāda: Poor means poor in knowledge. Otherwise even a small ants, it is not poor. It is eating. You are not giving food. In this room you'll find some hole. Hundreds and thousands of ants will come out. Are you giving him food? And you go to the jungle: thousands of elephants are there. Are you giving them food? Why you are concerned about the poor? Who is poor? Poor means who has no knowledge. He is rascal. He is poor. Poor means poor in knowledge. Otherwise nobody is poor. Everyone is getting his food according to his karma. Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa jantur deha upapattaye (SB 3.31.1). These are wrong theories. Wrong means because they are rascals, they are putting something rascal, idea. Mūḍhaḥ nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam, avyayam. Nityo nityānāṁ ceta . . . this is Vedic version. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). Ye sab vichar nahi hai, sab chod diya hai aur ant-shant bakne wala koi authority. (All these thoughts are not there, I have left everything and some authority who speaks all nonsense.) We want to stop all this nonsense. That is our mission. Our Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission is that, "You become guru," as I was telling, "and teach, deliver persons where you are." If you say: "How can I become guru?" there is no difficulty. Simply repeat the words of Bhagavad-gītā, Kṛṣṇa. That's all. You become guru. So our mission is to create real guru, not these jugglers. And real guru is he who speaks on behalf of Kṛṣṇa. And that is wanted. It is very simple. Do you accept or not? Boliye.

Mr. Dwivedi: Ab sunane ke bad bolna baki nahi raha. Samajh me aa gaya. (Now after listening, there is nothing left to speak, I understood everything.) (laughter)

Prabhupāda: Yehi sab kharab kar diya. (All this has spoilt the culture . . . manufacturing words, daridra-nārāyaṇa. Lakṣmīpati is daridra? Kitna gādhā. Maan lijiye, ye kya cheez hai usko samajho ki do pasie ka cheez aap lane ko jaate hain bazaar se usko kitna din jake dekhte hain aur ek guru, authority itna jaldi maan liya, without checking. Yehi India ka durbhagya hai. Guru ka definition Bhagavad-Gita me hai, padta hi nahi. sab bolta hai hum Bhagavad-Gita padha hai, sab bolta hai, Gandhi bhi bolta hai, ye bhi bolta hai. Kuch padha bhi nahi, ek line bhi nahi samajhta hai. (He is such an ass. Suppose you go to a shop to buy something worth 2 paise and do a survey for days, but a spiritual master you accept without verifying, you accept so easily. This is the misfortune of India. The definition of a spiritual master is given in the Bhagavad-gītā, they don't read it. Everyone says I have read Bhagavad-gītā, everyone says. Gandhi also says, they also say. They have not read anything, they have not understood even a single line.)

Mr.Dwivedi: Hum to ye samajhte hain ki jaise bail ke upar Gita rakh dijiye vajan viase hi hamare upar. (I understand that like how on a bull, the Gītā is kept as a weight on us similarly.)

Prabhupada: Lekin wo to theek nahi hai. dekhiye "tad viddhi pranipatena" ye sab Bhagavad-Gita ka verse hai "tad viddhi pranipatena pariprashnena sevaya upadeksyanti te gyanam gnyaninas tattva darshinah" aise guru ko mano, jo gyani ho aur tattva vastu ko darshan kiya ho . . . (indistinct Hindi). Uske paas jao "tad viddhi pranipatena pariprashnena sevaya upadeksyanti te gyanam gnyaninas tattva darshinah". aise vyakti ke paas jao jo poorva gyani tattva darsinah ho. Wo vyakti ka darsan kiya hai, khud guru hai. Ye sab cheez nasht ho gaya . Ye sab . . . (But that is not right. Just see, "Tad vidhi pranipatena" all these are verses from the Bhagavad-gītā: "Tad viddhi pranipatena pariprashnena sevaya upadeksyanti te gyanam gnyaninas tattva darshinah". Follow such a master who is knowledgeable and who has seen the absolute truth . . . (indistinct) . . . got to him, "Tad viddhi pranipatena pariprashnena sevaya upadeksyanti te gyanam gnyaninas tattva darshinah" go to such a master who is all knowledgeable of the absolute truth. One who has seen the truth and himself is a master. All this is lost. All this . . .) we want to reestablish this. This is our mission. Everything is there. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa-upade . . .: "You simply make your life successful by understanding Bhagavad-gītā and preach this. You become guru." So where is the difficulty? Why don't you do that? Boliye. kyo aaplog nahi karte hain. Ab dekhiye aaplog seva sangh banaye hai (Please tell. Why don't you people do it? Now see you have formed the seva sanga.) to you quoted from Vivekananda, not from the Bhagavad-gītā.

Mr. Dwivedi: Ye to humne ab theek se padha maharaj. Pehle to humari report par . . . rehta hai "yat karosi yad asnasi yat juhosi dadati yat yat tapasyasi kaunteya tat kurusva mad arpanam." (I read it now properly Mahārāja. Initially in our report . . . it is "Yat karosi yad asnasi yat juhosi dadati yat yat tapasyasi kaunteya tat kurusva mad arpanam".)

yat karoṣi yad aśnāsi

yaj juhoṣi dadāsi yat

yat tapasyasi kaunteya

tat kuruṣva mad-arpaṇam

(BG 9.27)

Prabhupāda: This should be the . . . take . . . take Bhagavad-gītā as the authority. Everything will be all right. Ye hamara kitab hai. (This is our scripture.)

Mr. Dwivedi: Humko pehle din paath padhaya jo humko, unhon ne jo founder hain, (The first day which we were taught, that person who is the founder,) the first day I couldn't understand it then pratyek dasha me iswar par atal vishwas rakho, (in every situation keep your faith in the Lord,) he doesn't say anything, neither shree ganeshaya namah, why he doesn't say . . . all that what is he doing I don't know . . .

Prabhupāda: Iswar to create karta hai, wohi to mushkil hai, Iswar create karta hai. Hindi me kaise Ramkrishna ko iswar banaya hai. Jo . . . wo iswar ban gaya. Yehi sach hai. Iswar aise cheap hai? Jahan kisi ko bana liya wo Iswar hai. Iswar aise sab koi hai. Iswar ka arth kya hai boliye. Hum bolta hai Iswar ka arth kya hai. (The Lord creates, that is the difficulty? The Lord creates. The Hindus, how have you made Ramkrishna as God who . . . became God? This is the truth. Is God so cheap? How can you make anyone God? As such everyone is God. What is the meaning of God tell me? I will tell you what the meaning of God is.)

Kartikeya: Supreme controller.

Prabhupāda: Iswar ka arth hota hai controller., jiska hukm chalta hai. sab iswar chalta hai, hamara hukm chalta hai, tumhara hukm chalta hai, apna-apna area ka. Apne-apne ghar me hukm karte hain.ladka ko, naukar ko "iswarah parama", jiska apke upar koi hukm karne wala ho. iswar sahi hai sab apne-apne area me, jurisdiction me, everyone is iswara. baki wo iswar nahi hai. asal iswar hai jiska upar koi hukm karne wala nahi ho. ab jo hai hum hamara shishya ke upar hukm karte hain, hamare upar hamara guru hai, uska upar uska guru hai, chalta hai, baki krishna ke upar koi guru nahi hai. (The meaning of God is controller, one whose orders are followed. All God can order, I can order, you can order. People in their own areas pass orders, people in their homes pass orders to children, servants. "Isvarah paramah", one who can order you . Everyone is God in their own right, in their jurisdiction, but that is not God. An actual God is one whom no one can order. Now we order our disciples, above me is my master, above him is his master, it goes on, but no one is above Kṛṣṇa.)

Kartikeya: He is Jagad-Guru. (He is supreme master.)

Prabhupada: He is Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ (BS 5.1), anādir ādir . . . anādi. Uska adi nahi hai. Ye sab likha hai, wo sab ka adi hai, uska adi koi nahi, wo iswar hai. Itna bada bhari knowledge hai aapke paas (He has no beginning. All this is written. He is end of all creatures. He does not have a beginning, he is God. You have such transcendentally precious knowledge.) You have got so exalted knowledge in India. You have kept it packed. And you are going to beg from others? Take this knowledge of Bhagavad-gītā and assimilate it, make your life successful, and distribute it throughout the whole world. That I want. Aisa knowledge duniya me kahin nahi hai Knowledge, real knowledge, is in India. Isliye Chaitanya Mahāprabhu, (Such kind of knowledge is not there anywhere in the entire universe. Real knowledge is in India,) therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu said,

bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra

janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra

(CC Adi 9.41)

Indians, they are fortunate. They have got their birth in Bhāratavarṣa. The knowledge is here. So assimilate this knowledge. Make your life successful and distribute it to persons outside India. That is paropakāra. That is real paropakāra. That is real sevā. But sevā, no; it is dayā. The sevā cannot be used. Sevā means offered to the superior. And to the inferior, if you want to do something, that is dayā. There are words. Sevā is only capable to accept, Kṛṣṇa. Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau svayam eva sphuraty adaḥ (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.234). These are . . . kuch vichar nahi hai, bus word laga diya, idea laga diya. Thoda samajhne ko chahta hai. (They don't have any such ideas, only do word jugglery and put some ideas.)

Mr. Dwivedi: Seva swami ki hoti hai. (The spiritual master is to be worshiped.)

Prabhupāda: Sevā, Bhagavān accept, can accept.

ekale īśvara kṛṣṇa āra saba bhṛtya

yāre yaiche nācāya se taiche kare nṛtya

(CC Adi 5.142)

So master can accept sevā. So whenever there is devotional service, it is called bhāgavata-sevā. And jīvera dayā. Liye jitna jo sab jiv hai sab apna-apna idea me hai usko daya karke samjhana chahiye. Jiska paas kuch hai, (All the living entities have their own concocted ideas and they have to be mercifully explained. Those who don't have anything.) If you have got something, then you can be merciful to others. If you have no knowledge, what you can do? The basic principle . . . hamara ye In India, (our India is,) Bhāratavarṣa, exalted knowledge, and if it is presented properly, people will accept. They are accepting now, one man's effort. If many men are prepared to do this service, the whole world will be followers of Bhagavad-gītā. Kya Pakistan sab Hindustan me hai. (Why Pakistan? Everything is there in India.) (break) I have come to give here India's knowledge. In big meeting I told him that, "I have not come here to beg. I have come here to give." Everyone goes from . . . even the Prime Minister goes—beg. All beggars. And it is known as "beggars' nation." But you can be the, I mean, giver nation. You have got so much potency. But we are not training people in that way. They are learning dog dancing. That's all. If we simply understand this one word, beginning of the Bhagavad-gītā . . . there are so many students of Bhagavad-gītā, but nobody understands Bhagavad-gītā. The beginning is:

dehino 'smin yathā dehe

kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā

tathā dehāntara-prāptir

dhīras tatra na muhyati

(BG 2.13)

Is not there in the beginning?

Mr. Dwivedi: Dusra adhyaya. (Second chapter.)

Prabhupāda: So if there is dehāntara-prāpti, then where is your so-called nationalism, socialism? They do not understand. Suppose if you are Indian today, and dehāntara-prāpti, you become something else. Then where is your nationalism? Boliye. (Tell me.) For twenty years or, say, fifty years nationalism . . . when you become young man, thirty-forty years, then you begin. Suppose you live for hundred years. So fifty years' nationalism. Then, if by chance you become a dog? Jawab dijiye. (Answer me.)

Mr. Dwivedi: Ye . . . me rehta hai ,vāsudhaiva-kuṭumbakam me hi rehta hai. Phir to Vasudhaiva kutumbakam me bhi rehta hai. wahan tak aadmi paida ho gaya to theek hai. (He stays in this conception of vasudeva kutumbakam. If the person is born until then, it is okay.)

Prabhupāda: Vāsudhaiva-kuṭumbakam, all right, because Kṛṣṇa says,

sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya

sambhavanti mūrtayaḥ yāḥ

tāsāṁ mahad-yonir brahma

ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā

(BG 14.4)

If you understand Kṛṣṇa, then kuṭumbakam. If you don't understand your father, where is kuṭumbaka? Krishna ko to, father ko to uda diya Kitna aur kutumbakam, kitna bada foolish idea. (Kṛṣṇa, you did away with the father of such a big family, such a big foolish idea.) You do not recognize the father, and crying for brother. If you understand Kṛṣṇa, then vāsudhaiva-kuṭumbakam. If you do not understand, it is foolishness. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati (BG 18.54). If you can understand your position as part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, Paraṁ Brahma . . . Kṛṣṇa . . . paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12). Everything in the Bhagavad-gītā . . . if you understand that "I am part and parcel of Paraṁ Brahma. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi. I am also Brahman," that is brahma-bhūta (SB 4.30.20). Prasannātmā na śocati . . . samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. Then you can claim this vāsudeva . . . if you do not understand Kṛṣṇa, it is all nonsense, simply slogan. Where is kuṭumbaka? Then where is nationalism? I have gone to preach in the foreign countries—really on kuṭumbakam, not that, "I am Indian. He is American. He is Englishman." Then there is no question of kuṭumbakam. And people are fighting on this plane. This vāsudhaiva-kuṭumbakam . . . then why you asked the Englishmen to go away, quit India? What do you say?

Mr. Dwivedi: Narrow nationalism.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Mr. Dwivedi: Narrow nationalism.

Prabhupāda: If you . . . if you think kuṭumbakam . . . suppose some kuṭumba has come to your house. You ask him, "Go out"? This is our system. Gṛhe śatrum api prāptam. This is Indian culture. When you receive somebody at your home, even if he's your enemy—gṛhe śatrum api prāptam—you should treat with him in such a way that he'll forget that he's your enemy. Viśvastam akutobhayam. That was India's culture. Bhīma went to Jarāsandha to fight. Whole day it was fight. It was kṣatriya's fight. Unless one is dead, the fight will continue. So Bhīma and Jarāsandha were equally powerful, so no decision. But still, he was guest at Jarāsandha's house. At night they were eating together, talking together. This is India's culture. They forgot. Arjuna went to see in the battlefield to Duryodhana. And Duryodhana immediately said, "Come here, my brother. You have come. What do you want? How can I help you? You want your kingdom without fight? I can give you." He said: "No, no, that is not my business." This is kṣatriya. He . . . he thought that "He has come to beg." "No, no, that already . . . that we shall decide in the battlefield." This is kṣatriya. But when he's at my place, I offer, "All right, if you want without fight, you can take." This is . . . they . . . this is India's culture. Ei sab mahābhārata hai, (This is all in the Mahabharata. "History of Greater India." Apka Gandhiji bolta hai ye sab kuch nahi, sab fiction hai. (Your Gandhiji says all this is not there, it is all fiction.)

Mr. Dwivedi: Gandhi thought that the Mahābhārata is within.

Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct Hindi)

Mr. Dwivedi: "The Rāmāyaṇa is within." That's what he says.

Prabhupāda: And therefore . . . therefore . . .

Mr. Dwivedi: He said, "Rāma, nobody accepts . . ."

Prabhupāda: . . . Kṛṣṇa . . . Kṛṣṇa gave him within—bullet. Yes. "Your nonviolence is within. You take it within. Take this bullet." Such wrong theory. "You want to establish nonviolence, and the violence is within. Take it." So don't theorize. Yaḥ śāstra-vidhim utsṛjya vartate kāma-kārataḥ, na siddhiṁ sa avāpnoti (BG 16.23). This is Gītā's word. If you do not follow the śāstra—you manufacture ideas—you'll never get success, na siddhiṁ sa avāpnoti na sukham, no happiness, and what to speak of parāṁ gatim? Ye sab chodna padega. (You have to leave all this.) Tasmāt śāstra-vidhānoktaṁ kāryākārya . . . what is that verse? Real guidance, śāstra, and Kṛṣṇa is speaking. Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. It is very easy. But we have given up all these things . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . so you have to give up this. Otherwise there is no hope. (break) And to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, it is not at all difficult. Very simple thing. Otherwise how they have become? Ten years before, they did not know who is Kṛṣṇa. So how they have become Kṛṣṇa conscious? And our position is that even a person like Gandhi, he could not become Kṛṣṇa conscious in hundred years. Because the wrong way. And they have become within ten years fully Kṛṣṇa conscious. Now ask him that "Go back to your Christian." Will they go? They have been kidnapped. They have been forced. In so many ways they have been harassed. No. In America it was going on. Their fathers . . . from parents' side they have been kidnapped, detoured by force that "You eat it, the māṁsa. You eat." What is that girl who was kidnapped and she came to temple and married?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That girl in Los Angeles?

Prabhupāda: No, in New York.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, Mūrti-vandya. Mūrti-vandya.

Prabhupāda: (indistinct Hindi) . . . now, how they have become Kṛṣṇa conscious? And our men? They are dragged, somebody, to this conscious, that conscious, that conscious. Take this steady instruction of Bhagavad-gītā. Try to implement. Everyone will be happy, everyone, undoubtedly. Take this seriously. It is not that because we are pushing Kṛṣṇa . . . we are not pushing something new, manufactured. It is already there. It is already there. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So what do you think? Is it possible to push Kṛṣṇa consciousness on this line, strictly on Bhagavad-gītā? What do you think? It is not difficult, but we have made it difficult. Recently I had been to Vinoba Bhave's aśrama. And there is no Kṛṣṇa, and he is writing Bhagavad-gītā pravacana or something like that. Even in Gandhi's āśrama, Wardha, the Gandhi's lantern is being worshiped. And where is Kṛṣṇa? So the Bhagavad-gītā's instruction is mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja, and they are worshiping Gandhi's lantern. You had been with me?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, but I've seen it.

Prabhupāda: You know, that so . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Neither many people come there.

Kartikeya: Sevagram.

Prabhupāda: Nobody.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Kṛṣṇa temples are still full.

Prabhupāda: And it is very nice place. How it could be developed as a Kṛṣṇa conscious center. But they have given up this idea. From externally . . . now Vinoba Bhave is preaching Bhagavad-gītā pravacana how many years?

Mr. Dwivedi: Nearly forty-fifty years.

Prabhupāda: Fifty years. So what he has done? And within ten years what I have done?

Mr. Dwivedi: He has also put Gītā with politics.

Prabhupāda: Can I not say like that?

Mr. Dwivedi: You are . . . what you preach is unadulterated Gītā. He mixes it with politics.

Prabhupāda: That is my point.

Mr. Dwivedi: You put one principle,

man-manā bhava mad-bhakto

mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru

mām evaiṣyasi kaunteya . . .

(BG 18.65)

Prabhupāda: So what is beneficial, to preach Bhagavad-gītā as it is or adulterate it? Which is good? That is my point. Why should you talk of Bhagavad-gītā, adulterate? What is the benefit? And Kṛṣṇa says naṣṭaḥ. Hmm? (aside) Bring Bhagavad-gītā. Kṛṣṇa says, sa kāleneha mahatā yogo naṣṭaḥ parantapa. Evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo . . . (BG 4.2). You know that. Find out.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Fourth Chapter.

Prabhupāda: How to understand Bhagavad-gītā? By the paramparā. Sa kāleneha yogo naṣṭaḥ parantapa. To nasht ho gaya . . . (So it is lost . . .)

Mr. Dwivedi: Third Chapter . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Fourth Chapter.

evaṁ paramparā-prāptam

imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ

sa kāleneha mahatā

yogo naṣṭaḥ parantapa

(BG 4.2)

Prabhupāda: To jo parampara chod diya to nasht ho gaya. To nasht-brasht cheez dene se kya labh hoga. Ek khane ka cheez hai rasgulla accha cheez wo sad gaya usko dene se kya labh. jo khayega wo usko rog hoga, ye chal raha hai. Bhagvan jo gita bolne wala hai wo bolta hai yogo nasht parnatapa, bus nasht ho gaya. nasht-brasht ho gaya. So what you will gain from naṣṭa, bhraṣṭa? Ye sab tha. To pehle unka kaam hai jo nasht karo.The paramparā-sūtra says usko nasht karo, apna meaning lagao. To nasht ho gaya. nasht cheez dene se kya fayda hoga. Isliye Gita padhne wala.theek se ek line nahi samjh sakta. Wo cheez to nasht ho gaya. Iske liye tayyar rahiye. Ye nasht cheez hum nahi lenge. (So he has left the disciplic succession so it is lost. So what is the gain of giving knowledge? That which is lost and contaminated. There is one sweetmeat, rasgulla, which is very nice but it is spoiled, so what is the benefit of giving this? One who eats will fall sick, this is going on. God who speaks the Bhagavad-gītā is saying: "Yogo nasht parantapa". That is all, it is lost, lost and contaminated. So what will you gain from lost and contaminated knowledge? All this was there. So first their duty is to lose it. The disciplic principle says destroy that, concoct your own meaning so it is lost, what is the benefit of giving knowledge which is contaminated? That is why a person who reads the Gita, cannot understand even one line properly. That is lost and be prepared for it. That which is contaminated, we will not take. We shall give it pure.) We shall give pure. Then you see how your country becomes happy. That is real dayā. Aisa cheez dene se kya labh? Kewal shrama nasht' (What is the use of giving such knowledge? The effort goes to waste.) Śrama eva hi kevalam (SB 1.2.8). labh . . .

bhaktim udasya te vibhoḥ kliśyanti

hi kevala-bodha-labdhaye

teṣāṁ kleśala eva avaśiṣyate

nānyat yathā sthūlaṁ tuṣāvaghaṭṭainam

Bhagavad-gītā is for bhakti. Bhakto 'si priyo 'si me rahasyaṁ hy etad uttamam (BG 4.3): "I am speaking to you . . ." When Kṛṣṇa spoke to Arjuna Bhagavad-gītā to understand, he was not a vedāntī. He was not even a brāhmin. He was not a sannyāsī. So why he was selected? Bhakto 'si. Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti (BG 18.55). Without becoming kṛṣṇa-bhakta, what one will understand Bhagavad-gītā? A politician cannot understand. His motive is different. He cannot understand. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī . . . bhakta . . . how to become bhakta? Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti. Kṛṣṇa says: "By bhakti one can understand." He never said, "By jñāna, karma, yoga." No. Yoginām api sarveṣāṁ mad-gata . . . (BG 6.47). Eh? What is that? Antar-ātmanā, śraddhāvān bhajate yo māṁ sa me yuktatamo . . . so if you want to organize on that line, then it will be successful. Otherwise it is waste of time. That is real cooperation, that we must accept Bhagavad-gītā as it is and preach as it is. Then people will be happy. Otherwise waste of time. Śrama eva hi kevalam (SB 1.2.8).

vāsudeve bhagavati

bhakti-yogaḥ prayojitaḥ

janayaty āśu vairāgyaṁ

jñānaṁ ca yad ahaitukam

(SB 1.2.7)

Now, that is wanted. Ye chahiye, hamara . . . (This we want, our . . .) Those who lead the sevā-saṅga, they must learn how to do benefit to the people. They must practically assimilate, apply in their practical life and teach others. Then it will be successful. There is no doubt. And the proof is here. In our foreign countries . . . they are foreigners. They are practicing different religious systems. Now, why they are taking to Kṛṣṇa con . . .? Millions of copies, Bhagavad-gītā As It Is, we are selling. Kṛṣṇa book, how many?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Now about three and a half million copies, thirty-five lakhs copies.

Prabhupāda: In Christmas festival . . . they are performing Christmas festival and purchasing our book, Kṛṣṇa book. Now they have accepted this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is three thousand years old or some thousands of . . .

Kartikeya: Five thousand.

Prabhupāda: No, thousands of years.

Kartikeya: No, thousands of years.

Prabhupāda: So do something the people will be benefited, actual. And the whole instruction is there. Then it will be successful. Otherwise . . . moghāśā mogha-karmāṇo mogha-jñānā vicetasaḥ (BG 9.12). Find out this verse. Moghāśāḥ. Aur kuch karenge . . . (Will do something else . . .)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Moghāśā jñānam.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Gyani samajhta hai hum bada gyani hai mogha gyan. Koi samajhta hai hum bada karmi hai, mogha gyan, moghasah. (The knowledgeable person thinks that he is the most intelligent, mogha gyan. And someone thinks that he is the greatest achiever, mogha gyan, moghasah.)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:

moghāśā mogha-karmāṇo

mogha-jñānā vicetasaḥ

rākṣasīm āsurīṁ caiva

prakṛtiṁ mohinīṁ śritāḥ

(BG 9.12)

Prabhupāda: Yes. That's it. Rākṣasa. Raksasa. bhav kya hai krishna ko mar dalo ab Bhagavad-Gita padho. (Learn the art how to kill Kṛṣṇa, and read Bhagavad-gītā. Ye . . . moghāśāḥ, finished. Ye . . . hai kaun . . . (Who is it? . . .) Ye jo Gita padhne wala hai koi bhi bolta hai "krsnas tu bhagvan swayam' bhagvan krishna malik hai, bolta hai. Kishna ka kitab pado aur usko mar dalo. uska aasha kaise poorna hoga, Mogh aasha. Bada karmi hai, mogh karmi, bada gyani hai mogh gyan. (Those who read Gītā does anyone say: "Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavan swayam" Kṛṣṇa is the proprietor, the owner. Read the scripture of Kṛṣṇa and kill him. How will His desire be fulfilled, "Mogh aasha", he is a great achiever, "Mogh karmi", great knowledgeable, mogh gyan.) Vicetasaḥ. Why? Rākṣasa . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . whether you are prepared to cooperate with me on this line. Are you ready?

Mr. Dwivedi: We also believe in unadulterated Gītā, (laughs) unadulterated Gītā.

Prabhupāda: This is the line of action. Dekhiye sab theek ho jayega. (See, everything will be alright.) Mām evaiṣyasi asaṁśayaḥ (BG 18.68). Asaṁśaya. me koi samshaya nahi. Nischit, ye viswas kahan hai. (There is no doubt in the doubtful. Definite. Where is this faith?) Yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramaṁ mama (BG 15.6).

mām upetya kaunteya

duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam

nāpnuvanti mahātmānaḥ

saṁsiddhiṁ paramāṁ gatāḥ

(BG 8.15)

This is saṁsiddhi. If you want show, that is another thing. If you want saṁsiddhi, then you have to accept Bhagavad-gītā as it is. Samyak siddhi, sampūrṇa siddhi, samyak, saṁsiddhi. Find out this verse.

mām upetya kaunteya

duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam

nāpnuvanti mahātmānaḥ

saṁsiddhiṁ paramāṁ gatāḥ

(BG 8.15)

To, (So,) we have to give up this showbottle, that "I am a scholar of Bhagavad-gītā. I am so . . ."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:

mām upetya punar janma

duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam

nāpnuvanti mahātmānaḥ

saṁsiddhiṁ paramāṁ gatāḥ

(BG 8.15)

Prabhupāda: Real mahātmā. This is the definition of mahātmā, not that I create mahātmā. Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ, bhajanty ananya-manasaḥ (BG 9.13). Apna to kuch kaam nahi hai . . . (I don't have anything to do . . .) This is mahātmā.

bahūnāṁ janmanām ante

jñānavān māṁ prapadyate

vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti

sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ

(BG 7.19)

That is mahātmā. Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti. The Mahatma Gandhi . . . kahin bola hai ki krishna hi sab kuch hai, bola hai, hmm. (Has he told anywhere that Krishna is all-in-all, has he told, hmm.) Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. Wo mahatama milna mushkil hai. (That great soul is rare.) If you read Bhagavad-gītā, you must read properly, act properly. Then you'll get the benefit. If you manufacture your ideas—useless waste of time . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . whether they'll tolerate? Boliye. (Say something.)

Mr. Dwivedi: Hmm?

Prabhupāda: Whether they'll be able to digest?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bitter. Bitter medicine.

Prabhupāda: Bitter pill.

Mr. Dwivedi: I think there is greater room for digestion of unadulterated Gītā than for adulterated.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Mr. Dwivedi: And automatically, I do not know why, but I . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: No, they will not take it.

Mr. Dwivedi: They are . . . already they are in a mood of . . .

Prabhupāda: No, that . . .

Mr. Dwivedi: . . . without much effort on anybody's part. I do not know why, whether it, the idea has come from, but it is there.

Prabhupāda: No, that is everywhere. That is everywhere. Everywhere, every Indian is Kṛṣṇa conscious. By force we are making them otherwise. That is going on.

Mr. Dwivedi: From whatever . . . atomic forces or whatever forces of saints like you, but they take it . . . there will be that air, that something is automatically coming up.

Prabhupāda: Ye kuch preliminary apko suna diya. (He has told you something preliminary.) If you agree to cooperate with me, you'll see immediately. Because I want to deliver the real thing, therefore in my feeble health I am prepared to go. If one man can understand, that I want to see. I am traveling all over the world to see that at least one man may understand. They have spoiled the whole situation by misinterpreting, by malinterpreting, and by bringing some rascal and pose as leader. The whole world is spoiled. If you want to preach some rascal philosophy, you do. Why you take Bhagavad-gītā? That is cheating.

Mr. Dwivedi: When we can preach something genuine . . . this life is so small. What . . .? Why . . .? Why should we be after something which is adulterated? Why not preach genuine, if at all we preach?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Mr. Dwivedi: And for what purpose? Life itself is simply too short. For what purpose?

Prabhupāda: Apko haat diya galtiyan nikal raha hai. Apko haat se . . . agar koi bolega . . . yehi sab chal raha hai. (He gave his support and is pointing out the defects, from your hand . . . if someone says . . . all this is going on.) "I preach something nonsense, and I take Bhagavad-gītā." Why? Why you take Bhagavad-gītā? You . . . there are so many rascal philosophers. You also preach your own philosophy. Why do you take Bhagavad-gītā? And where is nonviolence in Bhagavad-gītā?

Indian man: This, I think, they will be very active to know, these things.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Where is nonviolence in Bhagavad-gītā, in politics?

Kartikeya: Nowhere.

Prabhupāda: No. Even that incidence I told you, the Duryodhana said: "You have come to, for kingdom? Yes, you can take." So he said: "No, no, no. That we shall decide in the battlefield." This is kṣatriya. "Oh, Duryodhana, you are so gentleman. Let us settle up. No, no, no." "No! That will be settled in the battlefield." This is Bhagavad-gītā. Ye nahi sochta hai ki de raha hai to le lo. (He does not think that he is giving, so let me take it.) "No, we have come to the battlefield. We must decide by fighting." This is kṣatriya. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Yuddhe cāpy apalāyanam. Ek kshatriya . . . (A ksatriya . . .) This is teaching of Bhagavad-gītā. Yuddhe cāpy apalāyanam. Then where this is nonviolence come in the Bhagavad-gītā? Apalāyanam. "Come on. Fight. You have no weapon? Take from me." This is kṣatriya. What is the definition?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Kṣatriya?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:

śauryaṁ tejo dhṛtir dākṣyaṁ

yuddhe cāpy apalāyanam

dānam īśvara-bhāvaś ca

kṣātraṁ karma svabhāva-jam

(BG 18.43)

Prabhupāda: Hmm? Śauryam . . .?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Śauryam—heroism; tejaḥ—power; dhṛtiḥ—determination; dākṣyam—resourcefulness; yuddhe cāpy apalāyanam—that he does not flee in the battlefield; dānam—generosity; īśvara—leadership." Those are the qualities.

Mr. Dwivedi: I don't know whether in Mahābhārata or somewhere, Arjuna said, pratyaiva na denam nāpy apalāyanam.

Prabhupāda: (aside) Get light on that. To ye sab sikhana hai kshatriya banana hai, brahman banana hai, vaishya banana hai, ye hai, bahut kuch kaam hai. kshatriya banane se, . . . banane se kya hoga, jo education hai wo shuddh banane ka hai, naukari karo . . . pehle jab education nahi tha to . . . le kar chale gaye Mahatma Gandhi . . . education ho gaya to sudra ban gaya . . . ye hai education. (So we have to teach all this, we have to make them kshatriya, make them brahmana, make them vaishyas, and have to do a lot of work. If we make them kshatriya, . . . make them, what will happen? Such education must be given where his soul gets purified. Get a job . . . in those days when there was no education . . . they took and went. Mahatma Gandhi . . . once they got education they became untouchable, this is education.) There was how many applications for five hundred posts?

Kartikeya: These fifty application . . . fifty posts and five thousand applications, twenty-five thousand applications.

Prabhupāda: No, no. There were some thousands applications. ye hai education. This is education. Samjho bus education ho gaya gaon chod diya aur shahar ja kar humko naukari de do. Ye koi education hai? . . . ye nahi tha to kahan rehta tha . . . shahar me kamra do . . . (Just think, you get education and leave the village and go to the cities and beg for a job there, is this education? . . . when this was not there, where were they living? Give us accommodation in the cities?)

Mr. Dwivedi: . . . (indistinct Hindi)

Prabhupāda: Then śūdra-karma. Paricaryātmakaṁ karma śūdra-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). Jab dependant ho gaya dusre ke upar naukari ke liye . . . so strictly if you follow Bhagavad-gītā as it is, oh, then there will be heaven, everything. To kya hua, itna time waste karne ka kya zaroorat tha education ke liye. Sudra ka koi education thoda chahiye, vaishya ka education ka zaroorat nahi hai, kashatriya ka koi hai. Zaroorat hai to brahman ka. (When he became dependent on someone for their job . . . so what happened? What was the need for you to waste so much time for education? An untouchable does not need any education, there is no need for education for a Vaishya, for a kṣatriya, yes for a brahmana it is required.) Jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.42). Usko gyan chahiye . . . bus sudra ka kya zaroorat hai education ka naukari karega to ye tumhara education hai. jao kahin bhi joota polish kar lo ho jayega . . . ye jo tumhara position hai to tumko education kyon chahiye . . . jo technologist hua usko koi pale tab usko . . . nahi to tumko kya. Koi institution usko palan kare to kuch ho sakta hai, wo khud kuch nahi kar sakta hai. Isse accha hai gaon me raho, krishi go-rakshan karo . . . simple life . . . ye gandhiji ka program tha . . . kya zaroorat hai . . . krishi go raksha vanijya bus. Go-raksha karne se gay ka jo mutra hota hai usse bhi bahut fayda hai . . . (He wants knowledge . . . only a sudra does not need education. Go anywhere and polish shoes and it is done . . . for this position, why do you need education? The technologist . . . if any institution sponsors him, then it will work. Otherwise he cannot do anything on his own. Better than this is to stay in the village and do farming and take care of the cows . . . lead a simple life . . . this was the program of Gandhiji . . . what is the need . . . farming and cow protection, that is all. By cow protection, the urine is what the cow gives. Is very useful.)

Mr. Dwivedi: (indistinct Hindi) . . . this I've seen that in our day it has been found first-class antiseptic. Isiliye, (That is why,) particularly when we have got typhoid and that sort of sicknesses in the home, it is with ground gobar that the house is cleaned and . . .

Prabhupāda: Bhagvan jo leela kar rahe hain.. khoob ghuma rahe hain aur ma Yashoda naraz ho rahi hain. Ye gay ka jo go mutra hai wo bhagvan ko . . . hai to bhagvan lekin gay ka doodh . . . aur ye hamara . . . hai shahar me koi gay nahi . . . (The pastime of the Lord . . . He is troubling mother Yasoda and she is becoming angry. This cow urine if . . . for God. He is God but cow's milk . . . and this . . . there is no cow in the cities.) This is very dangerous civilization. If you want to save them from this dangerous civilization, you must push on Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Otherwise there is no other way. Isko thoda samajh lo. (Understand it a little.) Dhīras tatra na muhyati (BG 2.13). Dhīra . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . sab gyan to maujood hai . . . usse sunane se kya fayda. Jisko sab koi guru manta hai, vaidya manta hai, narad manta hai, asita-devala aur apne bada-bada acharya, Ramanujacharya, Chaitanya Mahaprabhu to uska prem me pagal ho gaya . . . jitna mat itna pat. Secular state. Bhagvan bolta hai 'mam ekam' aur ye log bolta hai jitna mat . . . yato mat tato pat . . . koi agar keh dega doosre ka gala katna hai ye hamara dharm hai . . . ye sab chal raha hai. hamara dharm hai gala katna, han-han theek hai gala kato. Wo beehcara kahan jaye jiska gala kata jata hai... wo bhi to national hai. national kaun hota hai jo jis desh me janm liya . . . (break) boliye ye sab cheez chodega. Usko aadat pad gaya hai. to bangla bhasha me . . . chor ko bol diya beta aisa kaam nahi karna, beta chori karne se saza hota hai, shastra me likha hai, wo sunega. Prāyaścitta-vimarṣaṇam. Usko gyan dena hai. (Try to understand this a little. All the knowledge is present . . . what is the benefit from listening to someone who is not qualified? Everyone follows Him, physician, Narada, Asita Devala and our great acharyas like Ramanujacharya, Caitanya Mahāprabhu was mad in His love . . . as many people, so many religions. Secular state. God says: "Mam ekam" and these people say: "Jitna mat utna pat" . . . if someone says that you have to cut the throat of a person, this is our religion . . . all this is going on. My religion says that you can cut the throat of a person. Okay, I shall cut the throat of the person but where will that person take shelter whose throat is being cut? He is also a national . . . who is a national? One who has taken birth in that country . . . (break) tell me will he leave all these things. He is habituated to it. So in Bengali . . . it is told to the thief that son doesn't do such work, by stealing you will be punished. It is written in the scriptures, will he listen.) Do you think they'll do?

Mr. Dwivedi: No, I don't.

Prabhupāda: Nahi gyan se, uska summary kya hai Bhagvatam me. gyan to hai "tapasa brahmcharyena samena damena" ye sab gyan hai. "kecid kevala bhaktya vasudeva parayana . . . nihara ye jo kuwasa hota hai, jo savere dhua ho jata hai. (Not with knowledge, what is the summary of this. In Bhāgavatam, knowledge is there "Tapasya brahmacharyena samena damena", all this is knowledge. "Kecid kevala bhaktya vasudeva parayana . . . nihari", this kuwasa, the smog in the morning.)

Mr. Dwivedi: Kohra. (Fog.)

Prabhupāda: Kohra, humlog bengal me bolte hain kuwasa, wo chahe jitna chesta karo wo nahi jayega (indistinct) wo wasna ko uthao. Ekdam . . . 'kecit kevalaya bhaktya' kewal bhakti se sab prayaschit ho jata hai, sab theek ho jata hai. Shastra me likha hai. (Fog, in Bengal we say kuwasa, you can try your best but it will not go . . . (indistinct) . . . release that lust completely . . . "kecit kevalayā bhaktyā", with devotion, everything can be atoned. Everything will become alright. It is mentioned in the scriptures.)

kecit kevalayā bhaktyā

vāsudeva-parāyaṇāḥ

aghaṁ kārstnyena dhunvanti

nīhāram iva bhāskaraḥ

(SB 6.1.15)

Jitna paap sampoorna dhul jayega. kaise Nīhāram iva bhāskaraḥ. Nīhāra isliye Krishna consiousness introduce kiya, sab theek ho jayega. Niharam, aur vachan se, pravachan se. Wo chor . . . chor kya janta nahi ki chori karne se saja hoga. aur par janm nahi mante to is janm me to pakad jayenge . . . wo sampoorna gyan prapt hota hai bhakti se. "yasyatma bhakti bhagavati akinchana sarvaih gunaih tatra samah sate surah" "harav bhaktis kuto mahaguna . . ." yehi asal Krishna conciousness hai. . . . (indistinct) (And that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Such extensive cleansing of our sins will happen like, "Niharam eva bhasskarah". Nihara that is why Kṛṣṇa Consciousness was introduced, things will be alright. With Niharam, lectures and words. That thief knows that by stealing, he will get punished and if you don't believe in rebirth but this life you will be punished. That complete knowledge is obtained by devotion. "Yasyatma bhakti bhagavati akinchana sarvaih gunaih tatra samah sate surah", "Harav bhaktis kuto mahaguna . . ." This is actual Kṛṣṇa consciousness.)

māṁ ca yo 'vyabhicāreṇa

bhakti-yogena sevate

sa guṇān samatītyaitān

brahma-bhūyāya kalpate

(BG 14.26)

brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā

na śocati na kāṅkṣati

samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu

mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām

(BG 18.54)

Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi . . . (BG 18.55), tato māṁ tattvato jñātvā viśate tad-anantaram . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . so if you want, you can come also.

Kartikeya: No, I'll talk to Tamāla Kṛṣṇa. When are you going?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, we're going to go tomorrow to book the tickets. We'll be going . . .

Kartikeya: After 6th.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, on the . . . we'll be leaving on the 6th.

Prabhupāda: Wait next day.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, well, we want to leave, I guess . . .

Prabhupāda: Ah, Friday.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Friday.

Kartikeya: You can take my ticket.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We should get a ticket for you? Okay. Fine.

Kartikeya: It's a good opportunity for me to cure also.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yeah?

Kartikeya: We are going to this Ananda near Ahmedabad for five days near Śrīla

Prabhupāda. That was a very good reception there. So we can have the same type of . . . and we can see also with that, they have a good land and everything. (indistinct background discussion)

Prabhupāda: Sabse badi baat hai ye "tatha dehantara praptir" usse seekh lena chahiye. Nahi to aaj hum PM hai kal kutta banane se . . . Bhagvan bol raha hai "tatha dehantara" Nature hai; (The most important fact is, "Tatha denatara praptir" we should learn from him. Otherwise today, I am Prime Minister and tomorrow I may be a dog . . . God is saying: "Tatha dehantara". It is nature;) you cannot change it. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi (BG 3.27). You cannot stop it. Yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran loke tyajaty ante kalevaram (BG 8.6).

ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva-sthā

madhye tiṣṭhanti rājasāḥ

jaghanya-guṇa-vṛtti-adho . . .

(BG 14.18)

Agar aap ka jaghan vritti hai to ban jao kutta ban jao, suar ban jao, kaun rokega. (If you have the jaghan nature then become a dog, a pig . . . who will stop it.) You cannot check the activities of material nature. That is not possible. "ahankara vimudhatma" ye prakriti ka jo niyam hai usse bhi upar jana chahta hai, yehi ahankar hai. (The laws of material nature, he wants to rise above this and this is pride.) They do not know what the . . . how nature's law is working. And we are completely under the nature's law.

daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī

mama māyā duratyayā

mām eva ye prapadyante

māyām etāṁ taranti te

(BG 7.14)

Khoob acchi tarah se, (Very nicely.) We have got Hindi also . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . you are all young men. Do you think what I am speaking is right or wrong?

Mr. Dwivedi: Right.

Indian man (2): Right.

Prabhupāda: Right? (laughs) Thank you.

Mr. Dwivedi: When we told him yesterday, so he was interested to come today.

Prabhupāda: Very good.

Mr. Dwivedi: In Gītā he was interested.

Prabhupāda: Very good.

Indian man (2): In Gītā I am more interested.

Prabhupāda: Khub pracharak bano . . . gadha kehte hain aur ek gadha doosre gadha ko . . . yeh chal raha hai. Śva-viḍ-varāha-uṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ (SB 2.3.19). Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. 2-4-10 young men humlog ka... nahi hai. ... khoob prachar karo. koi mushkil nahi hai. sab sukhi ho jayenge, gaurantee. (Do a lot of preaching and become a preacher . . . an ass says that one ass leads the other ass, this is going on. "Śva-viḍ-varāha-uṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ" (SB 2.3.19) Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. 2 to 4 to 10 of our young men . . . is not there . . . preach a lot, there is no difficulty, everyone will be in bliss, guaranteed.)

Mr. Dwivedi: Parnatu wo hota hai, hai na Gita me "sve-sve karmane . . ." (But does it happen? Yes it does happen. In the Gītā "Sve-sve karmane.")

Prabhupada: sve-sve nahi. Brahmin, kshatriya, vaishya, sudra, ye sab division hai. (Not sve-sve. These are all divisions: Brahmana, Kshatriya, Vaishya, sudra.)

Mr. Dwivedi: But now everybody has become a śūdra.

Prabhupāda: Usse accha hai usko uthao, koi bhi brahman ban sakta hai . . . Brahman ka guna mil gaya brahman ho jayega, kshatriya ka gun hai kshatriya ho jayega. Ye sab education kahan hai. Sab . . . ka prabhav hai. (Better than that is to raise him to the platform of a brahmana, he can become a brahmana. If he acquires the qualities of a brahmana then he can become brahmana and if he gets the qualities of a ksatriya he becomes a ksatriya. Where is all this education? All . . . the effect of.)

Mr. Dwivedi: Ye maharaj shayad . . . mil jayenge inke paas. goswamiji ke paas apke . . . mil jeyenge. (This Mahārāja maybe . . . you might get it from him. From the Goswami . . . will get.)

Prabhupada: Blocks ka . . . (Of the blocks . . .)

Mr. Dwivedi: Photograph . . . (Photograph . . .)

Prabhupada: So give him photograph, my photograph. Bring some photograph.

Mr. Dwivedi: Alright. us letter me there are tentative date de dijiyega. Vaise kabhi fix ho jaye. (So that can be fixed, that Your Holiness will be reaching there about the 6th. In that letter there are tentative dates, please give them. It might be fixed any time.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That letter . . .

Mr. Dwivedi: Wo letter aap sign karke de dijiyega. Mera signature in that letter,(You sign that letter and give my signature on that letter,) whatever changes you want to make, make changes. Kindly put the date 6th, that His Grace should be reaching Gwalior on the 6th. (break)

Prabhupāda: Do . . . otherwise call him.

Mr. Dwivedi: Or call him otherwise, call him on the 7th.

Prabhupāda: Call him.

Mr. Dwivedi: call him on the 7th, morning.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. Kaam bahut kuch karne ka hai. phokatbaji se nahi hoga. Sincerly we have to . . . Bharatvarsh . . . yahan ka aadmi sab moorkh rahega. (So that letter . . . there is a lot of work to do. Nothing will come from idling. Sincerely we have to . . . in India . . . the people here will remain fools.)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is it required to give letter like that, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I mean . . .

Prabhupāda: And . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That letter is . . . it's required to give him a letter like that?

Prabhupāda: If he wants, give him a tentative date.

Mr. Dwivedi: You kindly give me one or two photographs.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I don't have any photographs like that.

Mr. Dwivedi: You don't have.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But you can get them. I can tell you the person to see who may have them. Amogha-līlā. I can give you his name.

Prabhupāda: So ask him, Amogha-līlā. Why he shall go?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, I . . . we have no photos.

Prabhupāda: No, no, you have no; Amogha-līlā has got.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: So bring some. Give him.

Mr. Dwivedi: And then you arrange for that date, that His Grace will be reaching Pohri on the 7th.

Prabhupāda: Tentative date.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So when do you want the letter? Immediately? You want the letter immediately?

Mr. Dwivedi: Yes. Yes, you see, because I am leaving tomorrow. Before I go, I meet some press people. I will be able to show them this letter. I say . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Mr. Dwivedi: . . . on that basis, they'll begin to submit that news.

Prabhupāda: (japa) If actually government follows Bhagavad-gītā, then they should stop this cow slaughter immediately. Go-rakṣya. If you want to eat meat, there are so many other animals. But don't touch cow. What is this? Ten thousand cows are being killed every day. And you are preaching nonviolence. (japa)

Mr. Dwivedi: Then I may take that letter from Your Holi Mahārāja

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Mr. Dwivedi: Aur . . . (indistinct) . . . (And . . . (indistinct) . . .)

Prabhupāda: No, you are welcome always.

Mr. Dwivedi: Kyunki ye sari cheezo me thoda sa expensive to hote hain par the hotel, you have got to do it. (Because in all these things, it will be a little expensive, but the hotel, you have got to do it.)

Prabhupāda: Hare Krishna (japa) Jaya. Prāṇair arthair dhiyā vācā. Hare Krishna (rings bell) Gopīnātha? Hare Krishna

Upendra: Yes, Prabhupāda. (end)