711110 - Interview - Delhi

Conversations by Date, 1971

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

 Listen to a 'Nectar Drop' created from this lecture

711110IV-DELHI - November 10, 1971 - 46:34 Minutes

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says that, "I am the taste of the water." So everyone has got . . . everyone has knowledge what is the taste of water. Why do you say he does not know Kṛṣṇa? Kṛṣṇa says, "I am the light of the sunshine." So who has not seen the sunshine? So when we see sunshine, if you think, "It is Kṛṣṇa," what is the difficulty? There is no difficulty. Raso 'ham apsu kaunteya prabhāsmi śaśi sūryayoḥ (BG 7.8) When you see some moonlight . . .

Reporter: It's very, I think, sir, that we must, as you say, live and have our being in Kṛṣṇa . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is already, but you have forgot.

Reporter: Is it so easy. Is it so easy. Of course, I mean to say . . .

Prabhupāda: Huh? Why it is not easy?

Reporter: It is not easy to be able to live, everybody . . . you know what a pāpī I am. I don't think the Kṛṣṇa consciousness is so easy . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Even if you are pāpī, if you see . . . don't you see the sunlight?

Reporter: It's very easy to see.

Prabhupāda: Suppose you are pāpī. Do you think that you don't see the sunlight?

Reporter: Yes, we do.

Prabhupāda: So if Kṛṣṇa says: "The sunlight is Myself," what is the difficulty, even if you are pāpī? If . . . don't . . . if you say: "I won't understand like that," that is another thing. But if the statement is clear, even if you are pāpī, what is the difficulty to understand it? Simply if you say: "I won't understand," like this, that is a different thing.

Reporter: No, no, no. So how do you explain to a Muslim, he's . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. You say one after another.

Reporter: Yes, sir.

Prabhupāda: Don't make me distressed. Yes. So try to understand.

Reporter: Yes.

Prabhupāda: You have raised that, "I cannot understand." What is the difficulty to understand?

Reporter: I mean to be able to actually live it, in day to day, life.

Prabhupāda: This is a question of . . . even suppose Kṛṣṇa says: "This beautiful flower I am." So you are seeing this beautiful flower. So why do you not understand if Kṛṣṇa says like that? This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa says, bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ khaṁ buddhiḥ manaḥ eva ca bhinnā me prakṛtiḥ aṣṭadhā (BG 7.4):"These eight prakār (types), eight kinds of material elements, they are My energy."

So you are sitting on the ground, bhūmi, so if you understand that it is one of the energy of Kṛṣṇa . . . just like the electric fan is running on; everyone knows there is electric energy. Similarly, if you see the ground, bhūmi, as expansion of Kṛṣṇa's energy, what is the difficulty? Bhūmir āpo 'nalo vayuḥ.

Reporter: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Reporter: It is very easy to say sir, but is difficult to do.

Prabhupāda: I do not know what is the difficulty. Lalaji boliye (Lalaji please speak).

Lalaji: Ye to apko is prakar ke prashna puch karke apse kuch sunna chahte hai, isliye prashna . . . (indistinct) . . . samajhne ko to samajh . . . Inhe bhi to kuch na kuch report taiyar karni hai. (He wants to ask you these kinds of questions to hear something from you, that is why he's asking . . . (indistinct) . . . understanding is easy . . . he also needs to create a report.) (laughter) (break)

Prabhupāda: It is very simple, you see. Actually one who does not understand what is Kṛṣṇa, for the neophyte, the prescription is there, that "You understand Kṛṣṇa like this." Because you are dealing with bhūmi, you are dealing with water, you are dealing with fire, you are dealing with air, you are dealing with sky, you are dealing with mind, you are dealing with intelligence. You are dealing with all these things.

Well, Kṛṣṇa says, "They are display of My energy." And then again says apareyam: "These energies are inferior," itas tu viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parā, "and there is another energy, superior." What is that? Jīva-bhūta, the living entity, mahā-bāho yayedaṁ dhāryate jagat (BG 7.5).

So what is the difficulty, I do not understand. He is explaining everything in the Bhagavad-gītā.

Reporter: But sir—for you.

Prabhupāda: Simply we have to take it as it is. Kṛṣṇa says that "I am this," and if you say: "No, Kṛṣṇa is not like this," that is your version. Kṛṣṇa says, "I am this." If you want to understand, just like if you want to understand me, I say that "I am a sannyāsī, I am a preacher," and if you say: "No, you are not a preacher," then how you can understand?

I am giving my identification that, "I am this." So you have to understand. You are writing also, understanding like that. So why do you deny it when Kṛṣṇa says that "I am the origin. This is My energy"? What is the reason you deny it? What is the reason?

Reporter: Sir, no reason. Only we are trying to comprehend, understand.

Prabhupāda: So there is no question of comprehension. When you see a spade, call it a spade. There is no question of comprehension. This is a fan, everyone knows. When I will say: "This is a fan," everyone understands it. Law of identification. Kṛṣṇa is identifying Himself, that "This is my energy."

Reporter: Let us understand you first of all.

Prabhupāda: Well I have no . . . I have no personal . . . no, no I have no personal presentation. I am speaking only what Kṛṣṇa . . . therefore we are presenting Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. Here is the book, you see. This book, Bhagavad-gītā As It Is, which we are presenting, and the publisher is Macmillan Company, and every year they are printing at least fifty thousand copies. This is for our fifth edition. They are printing this book since 1968: '68, '69, '70, '71, that, I think, I know they have . . . they are fifth edition. And people are reading it, Bhagavad-gītā As It Is.

Our . . . we don't change. Kṛṣṇa says, "I am the Supreme," and we are saying Kṛṣṇa is the same, Supreme. Even I do not understand what is Kṛṣṇa, I am simply presenting what is written in the Bhagavad-gītā. Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7): "There is no superior element above Me." So we say: "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme. There is no other Supreme."

Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). We say that, "You . . . always think of Kṛṣṇa, you become a devotee of Kṛṣṇa, you offer your respect to Kṛṣṇa." So we are not . . . (indistinct) . . . because we are presenting Kṛṣṇa as He is speaking in the Bhagavad-gītā, that's all.

Reporter: How to please the modern world . . .

Prabhupāda: This is the feeling. You see the effect.

Reporter: What's your feeling?

Prabhupāda: My feeling, I am very satisfied that Kṛṣṇa is accepted by presenting as He is. I must be very satisfied, because before me, who did not present Kṛṣṇa as He is, there was not a single Kṛṣṇa conscious person in the Western world. Now I have got thousands. So why shall I not feel satisfied? Those who misinterpreted Bhagavad-gītā—"This is this, this is that, this is that"—they could not get even one Kṛṣṇa conscious person, and by presenting Bhagavad-gītā, they are selling fifty thousand copies per month, and I am getting every year one thousand, two thousand Kṛṣṇa devotees. So why it is not practical?

Reporter: In India?

Prabhupāda: In India everyone is Kṛṣṇa conscious. They are trying to forget Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Reporter: Oh, we are, I think.

Prabhupāda: Everyone Kṛṣṇa conscious. Who does not know Kṛṣṇa?

Reporter: Sir, that is, we are very poor specimens. I mean every . . .

Prabhupāda: No. By force you are trying to forget Kṛṣṇa, that's all.

Reporter: Sir, I beg your pardon, sir. We are very poor specimens.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Reporter: If, as you said, sir, we are all . . . everybody is Kṛṣṇa conscious in India, still I can say we are to . . . (indistinct) . . . problems here. We are very poor specimens. I won't talk in all other . . .

Prabhupāda: But you do . . . don't you . . . you have not heard Kṛṣṇa's name?

Reporter: We have heard . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no. You have not heard Kṛṣṇa's name? Then why you are not Kṛṣṇa conscious?

Reporter: We are conscious of the Kṛṣṇa's existence . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Outside . . . out of India they ask me this question that, "In India, how many Kṛṣṇa conscious?" Every Indian is Kṛṣṇa conscious. Every Indian is Kṛṣṇa conscious. But he's trying to forget Him by artificial means.

Reporter: So you mean by Kṛṣṇa conscious . . .

Prabhupāda: By nature, every Indian born is Kṛṣṇa conscious, but at the present moment they are trying to forget Him. That is the problem, going on.

Reporter: What part of Kṛṣṇa? Or just part of His life?

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa, there is no part. Kṛṣṇa is absolute.

Reporter: He doesn't have form. For me, and for my child, Kṛṣṇa's here child life is very better.

Prabhupāda: For child, and for me or for you, simply try to understand that there is a person Kṛṣṇa. That's all.

Reporter: So, sir, are we rightly understanding that by "Kṛṣṇa" you mean some eternal principle, not as . . .

Prabhupāda: Not principle. A person, like you, like me.

Reporter: A person?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just so you are talking with me, I am talking with you, you are person, I am person, similarly Kṛṣṇa is a person.

Reporter: Person in the ordinary sense of the word, or . . .?

Prabhupāda: No. He is Supreme Person.

Reporter: Supreme?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like we are sitting here in Delhi City. Now here is Lalaji. He is supreme personality, mayor. (laughter)

Reporter: So we . . . we can see and feel and touch Him and be something also like . . .

Prabhupāda: No. Take it for example, just like India, the president is the supreme personality. The president is the supreme personality. You have to admit it. You may accept him or not, but officially you have to admit. So in this whole creation, cosmic manifestation, there must be some Supreme Personality. That is Kṛṣṇa.

That is confirmed by Kṛṣṇa and the Bhagavad-gītā, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid as ti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7): "There is no superior personality than Me." And we accept it. That is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness: "Oh, Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Person." So our knowledge is very easy. We don't make any research. Here is Kṛṣṇa says that He is the Supreme Personality—we accept it. That's all. It is very simple.

Reporter: Can we see Him, just as we see Lalaji?

Prabhupāda: And why not? Why not?

Reporter: But with these eyes or the . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, with these eyes. Simply you have to purify. Just like Lalaji, now he is known here. We can see. But he goes in the streets, nobody knows him. So in spite of seeing Lalaji; he cannot see. Is it not? Tell me this. One who does not know Lalaji, Lalaji on the street, then even Lalaji meets him he does not see him. Why?

Reporter: Question of eyes and no eyes, sir.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Then he has to make . . . prepare his eyes to see Lalaji.

Reporter: So, sir, how do we prepare eyes to see?

Prabhupāda: That is . . . that is the question.

Reporter: (indistinct) . . . (laughter) He said it's easy. I said, well, I know what is . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no. It is easy. It is easy. Suppose I say . . . you say that, "I have never seen Lalaji," and if I say, "Here is Lalaji. Why don't you see?" and if he accepts, that is . . . that's all right. What is the difficulty? If you say: "No, I cannot believe you. I don't think that he is Lalaji. Lalaji, why he is walking on the street? He must be in a big, nice car." But if you put all this argument, then it is very difficult for you. But if you believe me that, "Here is Lalaji," then the matter is very simple.

Reporter: The question is faith versus the . . .

Prabhupāda: It is not faith. It is not Lala . . . when I speak "Here is Lalaji," it is not faith, it is fact.

Reporter: I guess because you have . . .

Prabhupāda: But you don't believe me.

Reporter: Because you have personally witnessed, you see, sir.

Prabhupāda: That's all. It is not faith.

Reporter: Oh, yes, sir. You are . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: If you believe me, then it is all right. If you don't believe me, that is different thing.

Reporter: Then, sir, if everybody . . . (indistinct) . . . suppose somebody were to l.tell me that come and believe me that . . .

Prabhupāda: No. Why do I say . . .? You have to, you have to see whether, whether this person is worthy of believing. (laughter)

Reporter: Whether the guru is right.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore guru, guru cannot be any ordinary man.

Reporter: That's right.

Prabhupāda: That guru cannot be. That guru's designation is there in the Vedas, that tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam (SB 11.3.21). Anyone who is inquisitive for understanding . . . suppose if you are inquisitive to understand really what is Lalaji, then you must approach to a person who knows Lalaji. Then you will understand Lalaji. And if you approach somebody who does not know Lalaji, then he may give you misinformation. So guru is that who knows Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise you will not be able to understand what is Kṛṣṇa.

That Kṛṣṇa also very easily you can find out. Kṛṣṇa says. Kṛṣṇa teaches Bhagavad-gītā to Arjuna directly. Now if you believe Arjuna, then you understand Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa taught Bhagavad-gītā to Arjuna, and why Arjuna was taught, that is also said by Kṛṣṇa, that bhakto 'si priyo 'si (BG 4.3): "Because you are My devotee." Kṛṣṇa did not go to teach Bhagavad-gītā to a Vedāntist. He went to teach to Arjuna. He was a family man, he was a soldier, but why he was selected? He, Kṛṣṇa said, bhakto 'si.

So if you approach a kṛṣṇa-bhakta like Arjuna, then you will understand Kṛṣṇa; otherwise you will not. They are understanding Kṛṣṇa through me, not before me. But if they or some of them "something," some of them "something," they may be very big scholar, but they did not know what is Kṛṣṇa.

Reporter: So first there should be direct . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Reporter: . . . apprehension by . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. One must be brahma-niṣṭham, śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham. Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). Abhigacchet means must. You must find out a guru who knows Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise there is no possibility of knowing Kṛṣṇa.

Reporter: So, sir, for we poor mortals it is very difficult to immediately, you see, to . . .

Prabhupāda: It is not a subject matter to understand immediately.

Reporter: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: It is not subject matter to understand immediately. It is a science.

Reporter: Yes, a science.

Prabhupāda: It is a science, jñānam sa vijñānam. So you cannot understand a science in five minutes. That is not possible.

Reporter: Yes. So we were trying to understand . . .

Reporter: No. We have just come to understand you.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That was others you cannot understand. (laughter)

Reporter: (indistinct) . . . he is trying to tell some kind of parochial . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: If you kindly accept what I say, then it is possible. If you are simply, what I say, if you have faith in me, and if what I say you believe, then you can understand. Otherwise, it is not possible.

Reporter: Can there be an existence without a faith, sir?

Prabhupāda: No. Faith is the beginning. But you have to . . . if you don't increase that faith scientifically, then that faith will not help you.

Reporter: My . . . I'm answering, sir, that without existence, without faith, there cannot be . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: No, no. That I say: faith is the beginning. Faith is the beginning.

Reporter: Because I take the word of my father . . . of my mother, that he is my father . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Reporter: . . . I can't prove it. Nobody can prove it that he is my father.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Therefore that is the beginning of knowledge. That is the beginning, adau śraddhā. That is stated in the śāstra: adau śraddhā, faith. Then if you have got śraddhā, then ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saṅgaḥ (CC Madhya 23.14-15). Suppose if you are . . . if you are very much anxious, you have got faith to understand Kṛṣṇa, then next step is to associate with persons who know Kṛṣṇa.

Just like you are doing some business, so you have to enter into some association, businessmen, to understand the business from them. Similarly, if you have faith in Kṛṣṇa, then you have to understand Him through the association of devotees. Ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saṅgau. Atha bhajana-kriyā: Then as soon as you have . . . just as these boys, they came to me.

After association they wanted to be initiated, "Swami, please initiate." That is called bhajana-kriyā. Ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saṅgaḥ atha bhajana kriyā. And if you are performing bhajana kriyā nicely, then anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt, then all misgivings will go away.

Reporter: Anartha visya.

Prabhupāda: Anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt. Then nobody will question. All questions will be anartha-nivṛttiḥ, all doubts gone. Then niṣṭhā, firm faith. Then firm faith, niṣṭhā. Then taste. Whenever there is Kṛṣṇa topics, immediately he go. Tato niṣṭhā . . .

Reporter: Taste?

Prabhupāda: Taste, ruciḥ.

Reporter: Ācchā. Taste, ruciḥ.

Prabhupāda: Tato niṣṭhā tataḥ ruciḥ athāsakti, then attachment.

Reporter: Tathā . . .?

Prabhupāda: Āsakti.

Reporter: Āsakti.

Prabhupāda: Mayy āsakta-manāḥ pārtha yogaṁ yuñjan mad-āśrayaḥ (BG 7.1). That is Kṛṣṇa says, mayi āsakta. We have to increase our āsakta, attachment, for Kṛṣṇa by this process. Tathāsakti tataḥ bhāvaḥ. Then you will see Kṛṣṇa everywhere. That is kṛṣṇa prema.

Reporter: That is bhāva. That is at last . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, not last. Last but one. The last stage is you can not live without Kṛṣṇa.

Reporter: What do you call in Sanskrit, sir?

Prabhupāda: That is called, first of all bhāvaḥ, then prema, prema, kṛṣṇa prema. That is our highest perfection. Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu is speaking that, "I am seeing everything vacant without Kṛṣṇa." Śūnyāyitaṁ jagat sarvaṁ govinda-viraheṇa me (CC Antya 20.39, Śikṣāṣṭaka 7). That is the last stage of perfection. You become mad about, after Kṛṣṇa.

So that will take time. This is the process. But faith is the beginning. Yes. And that faith is also explained by the author of Caitanya-caritāmṛta: śraddhā-śabde viśvāsa sudṛḍha niścaya (CC Madhya 22.62). Faith means such faith that firm faith, sudṛḍha, niścaya, certainly. Kṛṣṇa bhakti kaile sarva-karma kṛta haya. This is faith.

Therefore Kṛṣṇa says that sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). So faith means to believe in the word of Kṛṣṇa that, "Surrendering to Kṛṣṇa I will get everything. Now I am free. This is my perfection." That is called faith.

Kṛṣṇa said that sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. Now, if I say unto you that, "You give up everything, come with me," unless you have got firm faith, how can you do it? That is faith. That faith has to be increased, and then it will reach to the stage of love.

Reporter: Sir, just now we are coming from the press conference of another saint, Bala Yogesvara. He said, his slogan is: "Give me love, I'll give you peace."

Prabhupāda: What?

Reporter: He wants immediate this thing. Yours, in your case, prema comes last. He says: "Give me love, I give you peace." Śānti-prema do śānti lo. (sound of siren) (discussion on siren sound)

Prabhupāda: I think blackout is over.

Devotee: Shut the shutters on the doors and we'll go right . . . (indistinct)

Reporter: Sir, this is the real present ugly reality here. We are being threatened.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Reporter: This siren is a, shall I say, a very ugly reality before us.

Prabhupāda: You are already in ugly reality always, twenty-four hours. (laughter) Suppose there is no blackout. Still, if you go on the street, is there guarantee that you will go home?

Reporter: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Is that guarantee?

Reporter: No, no.

Prabhupāda: Then you are always in ugly reality. Why do you say this blackout? This is one of the feature of that ugly reality. That's all.

Reporter: Yes. At the moment I see, but has it . . .

Prabhupāda: Huh? (laughs) You are all . . . you do not realize that, that you are twenty-four hours in ugly reality. (break) . . . attended. Padaṁ padaṁ yad vipadām (SB 10.14.58). Every step danger. Why taking this?

Reporter: I know, sir, but this is collective, national danger here. Have you anything to offer to us as a, as a . . .

Prabhupāda: This Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Our only remedy is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You take to this and you will be happy. That's all.

Reporter: We'll . . . yes, sir. I think somebody should go to Aga Khan, to those who are threatening us. Some, I wish . . .

Prabhupāda: What benefit you will derive by going to the Aga Khan?

Reporter: But, well, he'll go to the . . . supposing somebody is out to kill me. Lets change it, if you can't kill him . . .

Prabhupāda: But suppose the Aga Khan does not kill you. Will you be safe?

Reporter: No, sir. That I can see, but . . .

Prabhupāda: Then what is the use of going to the Aga Khan? You will die today or tomorrow. That's all. If you want to save yourself, then go to Kṛṣṇa. That is our proposal. (laughter) Even if you go to the Aga Khan, he does not fight, do you mean to say that you will live forever?

Reporter: No, no, sir. I'm talking . . .

Prabhupāda: Then what is the use of flattering the Aga Khan? Just flatter Kṛṣṇa so that you may perpetually be saved. Why don't you take that?

Reporter: I was only thinking in terms of collective security, not . . . I can see your point now.

Prabhupāda: You should know that you are always in danger.

Reporter: Yes, sir. We agree.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Reporter: The great Einstein said the same thing when he was actually . . . he said there was no question . . .

Prabhupāda: That is our position.

Reporter: "I could any time fall from here . . ."

Prabhupāda: And Kṛṣṇa says: "I will save you." Therefore let us go to Kṛṣṇa. Why the Aga Khan?

Reporter: Changing, because he is disturbing, that's all.

Prabhupāda: Disturbing . . . your mind is also disturbing always.

Reporter: Yes, yes. You are . . .

Prabhupāda: That is always with you. Your body disease always with you. Are you not suffering from bodily pains—"Oh aj sir dukhta hai" ("I have a headache today.") Why don't you go to the Aga Khan to cure your sir dukhta hai. (headache.) (laughter). So why you do . . .? You are already in danger. If you . . . why don't you realize that point?

Reporter: That I . . . Yes.

Prabhupāda: Therefore . . .

Reporter: But we are talking of national disaster.

Prabhupāda: These are symptoms. Just like one man is diseased and he is saying, "Oh, sir dukhta hai, kar dukhta hai, aaj dhoop nahi hai" ("I have a headache, hand pain, no sunlight today.") Real thing is his disease. These are symptoms. So people are trying to cure patchwork. We are giving the supreme cure. That is the difference. No patchwork. No patchwork disease cure will help you. Complete cure.

janma karma me divyam

yo janati tattvataḥ

tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma

naiti mām eti

(BG 4.9)

Reporter: Mām eti.

Prabhupāda: That's it. That we want. No more repetition of birth and death. Mām eti. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, benefit of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramaṁ mama (BG 15.6). If you go to Kṛṣṇa, then you don't come back again.

Reporter: Sir, I . . . mine was a very hypothetical question. Supposing hundred pure saintly Kṛṣṇa conscious people are meditating or discussing or just surviving together, and there comes somebody, some dushta (evil person), who drops a bomb, and at the end of all . . .

Prabhupāda: So those who are Kṛṣṇa conscious, they are not afraid of bomb. They are not afraid of bomb.

Reporter: How to face such people? We are such, sir, we are . . .

Prabhupāda: Now they receive bomb then, "It is Kṛṣṇa's desire that bomb has come."

Reporter: . . . (indistinct Hindi)

Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct Hindi) (laughter)

Reporter: . . . (indistinct Hindi)

Prabhupāda: A Kṛṣṇa conscious person is never afraid of anything. Bhayaṁ dvitīyābhiniveśataḥ syād (SB 11.2.37). One who has conception of anything other than Kṛṣṇa, he is afraid. One who knows everything is Kṛṣṇa, why he should be afraid? If bomb is coming, he will see, "Oh, Kṛṣṇa is coming." Yes. That is the vision of the devotee. So he thinks, "Oh, Kṛṣṇa wants to kill me as bomb. Oh, that's all right. I will be killed." That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Reporter: We do not fight?

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Reporter: We do not fight?

Prabhupāda: No, he will fight. He will fight—by the direction of Kṛṣṇa.

Reporter: Like Arjuna . . . (indistinct)?

Prabhupāda: Yes. He is not . . . he is not afraid of fighting, but he will fight under direction of Kṛṣṇa.

Reporter: On that, sir, he has put the real question which I was fumbling to ask. So . . .

Prabhupāda: No. Kṛṣṇa fought. Kṛṣṇa . . .

Reporter: In the Kṛṣṇa conscious scheme there is also active struggle and activity?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Certainly. Niyataṁ kuru karma tvaṁ karma jyāyo hy akarmaṇaḥ (BG 3.8). Instead of sitting idle, if you act badly, that is good.

Reporter: Ah. There you are, sir.

Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa's advice. Kṛṣṇa does not say sit idly. Neither Arjuna was advised like that. Neither . . . Arjuna wanted to be nonviolent, sit idly. Kṛṣṇa never did so. Kṛṣṇa said: "Oh, you fight. You are Kṣatriya. It is your duty." And in order to raise him to that fighting position, this position, He taught him Bhagavad-gītā. So don't think that Kṛṣṇa-bhaktas are idle, sitting only. No. That is mistaken idea. Kṛṣṇa-bhakta can do anything under the direction of Kṛṣṇa.

Reporter: We are not escapists.

Prabhupāda: No.

Reporter: Mahārāja, please go on here helping us. You know, we are . . . (indistinct) . . . our battery has gone out. (laughter) . . . (indistinct Hindi) (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . told me that, "Your Vaiṣṇavism has killed India." And why? "No, Vaiṣṇava means inactive. They say simply chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and do nothing." Then "You have not seen a Vaiṣṇava," I told him.

Reporter: Pardon?

Prabhupāda: I told him that "You have not seen a Vaiṣṇava."

Reporter: Vaiṣṇava.

Prabhupāda: In India there are two major war, Rāma Rāvana yudha and Kurukṣetra yudha, and there the hero is a Vaiṣṇava—Arjuna and Hanumānjī.

Reporter: Hanumān?

Prabhupāda: Hanumānjī. Rāma Rāvana.

Reporter: . . . kholke dikhaye the Rāmachandra andar baithe huye hai . . . (he opened his chest and showed that Lord Rāmachandra is sitting inside.) He was perfect Vaiṣṇava.

Prabhupāda: Therefore I told him that, "You haven't . . . you have, have not seen a Vaiṣṇava."

Reporter: With your permission, may I ask one question? Do we completely . . . do we offer any solution for socio-economic problems that . . . (indistinct) . . . can . . .?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Provided you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, everything will be solved.

Reporter: Will it come by itself, or will it come through you?

Prabhupāda: Immediately. Immediately.

Reporter: How, sir?

Prabhupāda: Huh? That you have to take it.

Reporter: But to completely . . . (indistinct) . . . to follow the . . .

Prabhupāda: Just like Kṛṣṇa says, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13): "These four varṇas—Brāhmin, Kṣatriya, Vaiśya, Śūdra—it is created by Me." But you are trying to kill it. Why? If you try to kill Kṛṣṇa's program, then how you will be happy?

Reporter: That is the first . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Huh? There is no question of preference. It is His creation, it is there. You are creating, Congress caste, jana-sangh caste. Caste is already there, in a different name. How you can make casteless? That is not possible. The whole world—"I am American," "I am Indian"—this is caste, bigger caste.

Yasyātma-buddhi-kuṇa . . . (SB 10.84.13). So long you will be under the concept of this body, there must be caste division. So we have to come to the Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then there will be no caste. Just like these boys— Americans, Europeans, Africans, Canadians—they have no caste, they have no nationality; they are simply for Kṛṣṇa. That is casteless.

Reporter: So are they Brāhmins?

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Reporter: The foreigners?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa conscious means Brāhmin. Brahma jānātīti brāhmaṇaḥ.

Reporter: Not by birth.

Prabhupāda: Not by birth. They are Brāhmins by quality. They have got sacred thread. That is also there in the śāstras. Yasya hi yad lakṣaṇaṁ syat, varṇābhivyañjakam. Varṇa. Varṇābhivyañjakam. There are symptoms—the Brāhmins are this: satya, samaḥ, damaḥ, titikṣa, ārjavam, jñānam vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.42). This is the symptom of Brāhmins. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. If you find these symptoms anywhere, he is a Brāhmin.

Reporter: Except those who believe in Bhagavad-gītā, not the others, sir. They don't believe in that. They believe in caste by birth.

Prabhupāda: He does not know what is Bhagavad-gītā.

Reporter: All the orthodox . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: I say he does not know what is Bhagavad-gītā. If he believes in that way, that he does not know about Gītā.

Reporter: He says this is all Hinduism.

Prabhupāda: Maybe your Hinduism. You lick up your Hinduism. But we are creating real Brāhmin all over the world.

Reporter: I can see. What Lord Kṛṣṇa has stated, sir that, "I have created these four castes of āśrama . . ."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Reporter: And I as myself, just, as not somebody told me, just my feel . . .

Prabhupāda: Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Not by birth. Kṛṣṇa never says.

Reporter: (indistinct) . . . the caste.

Prabhupāda: No, no. These four castes. Not caste. We say caste, but varṇāśrama. Varṇa. Anyway, it is division. That division, vibhāga, the exact word is "division," not "caste." Or you can say caste, there is no difference? Division, these four divisions are there. So these divisions are not made by birth. Just like if you are a lawyer.

So in the society there are lawyers, engineers, medical men—they are divisions. But these lawyers, medical men or engineers, they are not born as engineer or as lawyer. That is mistake. Anyone who is qualified by the real knowledge, he is a lawyer. Not by birth. Suppose a lawyer's son, a big, big lawyer's son, does it mean that he's lawyer?

Reporter: No. But this is what we have been told.

Prabhupāda: So you have been (told) something mistake. That should not be accepted.

Reporter: Well, sir, you should know the problem all that there is a . . .

Prabhupāda: What is that problem?

Reporter: All the tribal men, harijanas, they are claiming . . .

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Reporter: If you proclaim that this is the real Hinduism, the people are getting fed up with Hinduism.

Prabhupāda: No. No. Why you are bringing Hinduism?

Reporter: Our this system . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Reporter: . . . is only by Hindu . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no. Hinduism is a foreign word, given by the Muslim. We don't find any word "Hindus" in the Vedic literature. Why do you call Hinduism? We are not preaching Hinduism. We are preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Reporter: By such a social system, social . . .

Prabhupāda: That is, that you satisfy . . . (indistinct) . . . but this is a broad Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is broader than any system, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are not preaching . . . we don't go to preach that, "Oh, we are preaching Hinduism." But because those who are accepting this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, mostly they are Hindus, then you can call it like Hinduism. But this is not Hinduism.

Reporter: Sir, your idea is very revolutionary.

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is revolutionary. Yes.

Reporter: Not . . . (indistinct) . . . I don't know how far Lalaji will go with you.

Prabhupāda: Lalaji is already with me. (laughter)

Lalaji: Yes, I am . . . (indistinct) . . . spirit will come to me, then I am . . . (indistinct)

Reporter: (laughter) (reporter makes jokes) (indistinct Hindi)

Prabhupāda: (aside) Yes, give them prasāda.

Reporter: Sir, would you like to give any message to the Indian people?

Prabhupāda: Yes. You take . . . my message is you take Bhagavad-gītā as it is seriously, you will be happy.

Reporter: That's all? Take it . . .?

Prabhupāda: Take it as it is. Don't try to interpret foolishly. That is my message.

Reporter: But, sir . . .

Prabhupāda: So long they are simply foolishly interpreting, therefore they did not get any benefit. But if you take as it is, you'll get the benefit.

Reporter: But sir, what are we to do with the . . . (indistinct) . . . bhāṣya?

Prabhupāda: Therefore I say I don't try . . . (indistinct) . . . name.

Reporter: Who will name it? Whose bhāṣya . . . (indistinct) . . .?

Prabhupāda: There is no question of bhāṣya. I say take it as it is. Kṛṣṇa says: "I am the Supreme." Gītā gave. Why bhāṣya? Why bhāṣya? They . . . Kṛṣṇa, in the Bhagavad-gītā, it is said, dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre (BG 1.1). Kurukṣetra is still there, you know. There is a station. Why do you interpret in different way?

Reporter: Sir, it is a joy to be with you.

Prabhupāda: What is the use of interpreting Kurukṣetra as different? That is a simple waste of time.

Reporter: (indistinct) . . . a skeptic, sir?

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Reporter: Have you been to Russia or any communist country?

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.

Reporter: They allowed you to preach?

Prabhupāda: So why not? We are not afraid of anybody.

Reporter: Because they have their own . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: They may have, but the public is not their own. Public is different.

Reporter: That's all right. But you've got to get a visa. How do you . . . how can you get?

Prabhupāda: Then one Russian professor invited me already.

Reporter: Ah. And to receive visa. Sir, did you give some . . .

Prabhupāda: Professor Kotovsky.

Reporter: Kotovsky?

Prabhupāda: Yes. You know his name?

Reporter: Well, I have heard of him.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He, not invited me officially, but he . . . we had correspondence. He said: "Swāmījī, you come this side, I shall be very glad to meet you."

Reporter: So you went there?

Prabhupāda: Therefore, therefore I got the visa.

Reporter: When was this?

Reporter: Twentieth of June.

Prabhupāda: Twentieth.

Reporter: Twentieth of June.

Reporter: Only this year?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Reporter: How long were you there for?

Prabhupāda: Only one week.

Reporter: One week. With your disciple?

Prabhupāda: Yes. I have created some disciple.

Reporter: Were you always in Moscow?

Prabhupāda: Moscow, mostly.

Reporter: I see. You . . . what did . . . do they allow some lectures or . . .

Prabhupāda: No. I had meeting with Professor Kotovsky. That's all.

Reporter: Only?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Reporter: Kotovsky only. That's all. He couldn't bring some people? Just his . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. He had his assistants, I had my assistants.

Reporter: . . . and some other people who said "All right, we'll hear, like to hear . . ."

Prabhupāda: Well, that professor wanted to hear. That's all right. So I . . . my conclusion was that, "Your communistic idea has not very much improved from our idea, because you cannot do without surrendering. Our Kṛṣṇa philosophy is to surrender to Kṛṣṇa.

Kṛṣṇa says, sarva dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam (BG 18.66). So your surrendering process is there. You have not improved. You say God consciousness or Kṛṣṇa consciousness is not good, but you have not improved, because instead of Kṛṣṇa, you have surrendered to Lenin. That's all.

Reporter: Surrender to Lenin.

Prabhupāda: "So you have to surrender in any circumstance. Either you become Communist or this 'ist' or that 'ist,' you have to surrender."

Reporter: That's it. And you will go to China and tell the Communist . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: This is a fact. This is a fact. You have to surrender to your senses. That's all. And we are simply recommending surrendering to Kṛṣṇa. That's all. By surrendering to senses you are not happy, but if you surrender to Kṛṣṇa you will be happy. Your surrender is there always. You cannot say that, "I don't surrender to anybody." That is nonsense.

Reporter: There should be right surrender.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Reporter: There should be . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because you are small. It is better to surrender and be peaceful.

(break) . . . here, there, here, there, here. Kṛṣṇa says: "No. That surrender will not help you. You surrender to Me, you will be happy." So intelligent person will see that, "If I have to surrender, why not to Kṛṣṇa? Why surrender to some foolish man? Let me surrender to Kṛṣṇa. If my business is to surrender, I cannot do without surrender." That is intelligence. That Kṛṣṇa says:

bahūnāṁ janmanām ante

jñānavān māṁ prapadyate

vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti

sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ

(BG 7.19)

Therefore we surrender to Kṛṣṇa, he is mahātmā. It is very rare mahātmā, su-durlabhaḥ. So anyone who has surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, they are mahātmā. They are not ordinary men. Sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ.

Reporter: Sir, we may . . .

(break)

Prabhupāda: We have to surrender, that's a fact. But we refuse to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. That is our disease. He is not free. Just like in a state, just like in Mahatma Gandhi's time, so many started civil disobedience, but the government brought them all into prison, and they obliged them to obey. Similarly, our position is that . . . (break) (end)