761216 - Interview - Hyderabad

Conversations by Date, 1976

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

 Listen to a 'Nectar Drop' created from this lecture

761216PC-HYDERABAD - December 16, 1976 - 46.59 Minutes

Prabhupāda: Ye light side, ye darkness, idhar jaiye ya idhar jayiye. (This is the light side, and this is darkness. You go this way or this way.)

Indian reporter (1): Obviously we have selected darkness. That is what we want to do. We want to go into light later on.

Prabhupāda: You are requesting something . . . Veda says: "Come to the light." Tamaso mā jyotir gamaya: "Don't remain in darkness. Come to the light."

Indian reporter (2): We want more light.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian reporter (2): Tamaso mā jyotir gamaya.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is desirable in human. Otherwise the animals are in darkness. They do not know what is God. But a human being, because he has got this human form of body, he can come to the light. So all the śāstras are for the human being, not for the cats and dogs. So if you do not take advantage of the śāstras, then you remain in the darkness. This is our position. The light is here. Just like apart from all other śāstras, if you take Bhagavad-gītā, it is the very brilliant light. It is not that changing. Five thousand years ago Kṛṣṇa said, what, that is still the same thing. Just like light. Millions of years ago, what was sun, the same sun is there. In the light there is no change. In the darkness there is change. If we do not accept the standard knowledge of Bhagavad-gītā, then we shall continue to remain in darkness, and there will be no solution of the problems of life. This is our propaganda. Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means that we are asking everywhere, all over the world, "You come to this light and be happy." That's it.

Indian reporter (1): Swamiji, tell us something good this āśrama, that you're doing.

Prabhupāda: Let Mahāṁśa . . . where is Mahāṁśa? Āśrama means an attempt to give some light. That is the difference . . .

Indian reporter (3): According to us, even in lightness there is darkness. Even in that it can be.

Prabhupāda: No, that is not light. That is called . . .

Indian reporter (3): There also it can grow from one level to higher level.

Prabhupāda: That is ābhāsa. Ābhāsa. Just like in the morning there is no full sunshine, but there is some glimpse of light. That is not real light. Real light is full sunshine, but before the sun rises fully there is some light. That light and this light different. We have to come to the full light. Then our life will be success. Not partial light. That will not help. The full light you can get from the Supreme Person, Kṛṣṇa.

Dr. Ramachandra: Jyotiṣām api taj jyotis tamasaḥ param ucyate.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Yes.

Dr. Ramachandra: Jñānaṁ jñeyaṁ jñāna-gamyaṁ hṛdi sarvasya viṣṭhitam.

Prabhupāda: So you take light from Kṛṣṇa. And that is full light, and you'll be happy. That is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Don't be satisfied with glimpse of light. Take full light. And that is open to everyone just like the sunshine is open to everyone. If you want to remain in the darkness, in the room, that is your business. But you come to the . . . you can come to the full sunlight. That you can do. Where is the difficulty? Kṛṣṇa is open to everyone. He is speaking everything openly. There is no secret mantra. Everything is there. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī mām (BG 18.65). This is open to everyone. Where is the difficulty? Unless we deny to accept Kṛṣṇa's instruction, there is no secret. Everything is open. But our leaders and scholars, they do not like to take Kṛṣṇa's instruction as it is. We are therefore insisting, we are presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is, no interpretation. They say: "Why not interpretation?" That is the defect. We say no interpretation. You take Kṛṣṇa as it is, that's all. Then your life is successful.

Indian reporter (2): No interpretation is it?

Prabhupāda: What interpretation you can give? He is authority, and what you are? You can give interpretation?

Indian reporter (1): It is self . . . (indistinct) . . . necessity.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Simply . . . yes. No, Kṛṣṇa . . . Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7). There is no more superior authority, more superior authority than Kṛṣṇa. And when Kṛṣṇa was present on this earth, He proved it. There was nobody superior than Him. That's a fact. Still He is superior. His Bhagavad-gītā is being studied all over the world with respect, determination, because He is still superior. That is superior.

Dr. Ramachandra:

athavā bahunaitena

kiṁ jñātena tavārjuna

viṣṭabhyāham idaṁ kṛtsnam

ekāṁśena sthito jagat

(BG 10.42)

Prabhupāda: And we are not changing. Because, five thousand years have passed, therefore we have to make some additional. No.

Indian reporter (1): Then why should there be so many commentaries upon it?

Prabhupāda: They are rascaldom, that's all. Simple word, rascaldom.

Devotee: Rascaldom.

Indian reporter (1): Rascaldom. I see.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You cannot interpret on the words of God. You cannot interpret. Just like law. There is law by the government. You cannot interpret in your own way. You have to accept it. "Keep to the right"—no interpretation. You must keep to the right. That is law. If you say, "What is wrong if I go to the left?" Actually if one goes to the left, it is not very . . . but you cannot do it. As soon as you do it, you are criminal, you'll be punished. That is law. The dharma means dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19). This is dharma. If you want a general definition of dharma, or religion, that is given in the śāstra that, "Dharma means the law given by God." That is dharma. You cannot manufacture dharma. And because we are manufacturing so many dharmas, mental concoctions, there is no peace. And Kṛṣṇa therefore says that "You give up this rascaldom." Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66).

Dr. Ramachandra: Tasmāc chāstraṁ pramāṇaṁ te . . .

Prabhupāda: The śāstra means what is spoken by God and His representative. That's all. That is śāstra. Unless Kṛṣṇa accepts śāstra, how He is saying like that? Tasmāc chāstraṁ pramāṇaṁ te. Śāstra should be . . .

Dr. Ramachandra: Some śāstras must be existing before . . .

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Dr. Ramachandra: Some śāstras after, existing before Kṛṣṇa and Arjuna.

Prabhupāda: Śāstra? Śāstra means it is authorized. Just like Bhagavad-gītā is śāstra because it is spoken by Kṛṣṇa, the supreme authority. Therefore all the ācāryas, they accept it. Still the ācārya-sampradāyas are there. Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Viṣṇu Svāmī, Śaṅkara, they accept all this. And at the time of . . .

Indian reporter (2): Do you accept the supremacy of the Vedas, veda-pramāṇam?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyaḥ (BG 15.15). And if you do not understand Kṛṣṇa, then you do not know what is Veda. Your knowledge of Vedas will be accepted when you understand Kṛṣṇa. So if you do not know Kṛṣṇa, then what is the use of taking so much trouble to study Vedas? You do not know anything. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19).

Dr. Ramachandra: Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti.

Prabhupāda: Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti. That is knowledge.

Dr. Ramachandra: Sa mahātmā.

Prabhupāda: Sa mahātmā. If you do not know vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti (BG 7.19), śrama eva hi kevalam (SB 1.2.8): simply you have labored hard. That's all. You have gained nothing. And if you understood Vāsudeva, then you understood everything. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam idaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.3).

Dr. Ramachandra: How do you explain vṛṣṇīnāṁ vāsudevo 'smi?

Devotee: Tell again.

Dr. Ramachandra: Vṛṣṇīnāṁ vāsudevo 'smi.

Prabhupāda: Yes, He's the chief of everything. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ (BG 10.8). That is the . . . He is the origin of everything. Mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate. If you know the root, then you know the whole tree, where to water. If you water the root, so it . . . water goes. It is goes to the highest twigs. You haven't got to take trouble to go to the up to pour water. You pour water in the root. This is the way.

Indian reporter (1): Once He says, vāsudevaḥ sarvam, and again He says, vṛṣṇīnāṁ vāsudevo 'smi. So the meaning of that word is . . .

Prabhupāda: So does it mean that He is not sarvam? One who does not understand vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti (BG 7.19), particular, "It is also Vāsudeva. It is also Vāsudeva. It is also Vāsudeva," that is called less intelligent. Otherwise, one who is intelligent, he'll under . . . vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti: "Everything is Vāsudeva." Sa mahātmā. But if he has no intelligence, then "I am this, I am God. I am Kṛṣṇa." The same example, just like here is a tree. If I say, "The root, you pour water," here is everything. Otherwise this is also tree. The leaf is also tree, the twig also tree, the flower is also tree . . . you go on like that. They are of the same value. But if one is intelligent, he will understand, "Here is everything," vāsudevaḥ sarvam, the root. That's all. (devotee talking) What is that?

French devotee: I was just telling this gentleman that the reporters may have some other questions also.

Prabhupāda: Then that is his wish.

(pause)

Prabhupāda: This is our movement.

Indian reporter (4): Through meditation you attain mukti?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Indian reporter (4): Through meditation ultimately you attain Him.

Prabhupāda: What do you mean by meditation?

Indian reporter (4): I don't know, but normally it is understood to be . . .

Prabhupāda: Then why you are talking of meditation?

Indian reporter (4): Normally as it is understood by . . .

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Indian reporter (4): Concentration.

Prabhupāda: Which concentration? What is the subject?

Indian reporter (4): It can be from man to man, from . . . one may do it on Kṛṣṇa, and one may do it on . . .

Prabhupāda: That is not standard. If meditation is according to one's whims, that is not meditation.

Indian reporter (4): But it depends upon the faith.

Prabhupāda: According to śāstra, meditation means to meditate upon God. That is meditation. Dhyānāvasthita-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ (SB 12.13.1). Yoginaḥ, those who are yogīs, they meditate upon the form of the Lord.

Indian reporter (4): So through that, you . . .

Prabhupāda: That is meditation.

Indian reporter (4): Yes.

Prabhupāda: Other things, they have manufactured concoctions.

Indian reporter (4): Maybe, but through that, you say you attain God, is it?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Indian reporter (4): You attain God, or what is the concept?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Meditation means Kṛṣṇa. He says meditation. Man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ: "Just concentrate your mind upon Me." This is meditation.

Indian reporter (4): Then, in due course of time, do you see Him? Or in what form?

Prabhupāda: Yes, immediately you see Him. Kṛṣṇa's picture is there. Kṛṣṇa's picture and Kṛṣṇa is not different. So if you concentrate upon Kṛṣṇa, you immediately see Him.

Indian reporter (4): You see Him.

Prabhupāda: Yes, immediately. But if you think Kṛṣṇa has no form, then it is difficult. Immediately. Now He says, man-manāḥ. He personally says man-manāḥ, so where is the difficulty?

Indian reporter (4): No, the form of the light, you see or . . .?

Prabhupāda: Why light? With two hands, two legs, He is speaking, man-manāḥ: "Me." Why light? Light is another feature of His existence, but He says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru. Therefore we are presenting. Mām evaiṣyasi asaṁśayaḥ (BG 18.68).

Indian reporter (4): In other words, do mean to say that you see Him in three dimensions?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Indian reporter (4): You see Him in three dimensions?

Prabhupāda: Unlimited dimension. Three dimension for you because You cannot see Him. Otherwise He is unlimited. That's it. But you cannot see unlimited. That is His mercy, that He presents Himself before you in three dimension because you have no eyes to see Him in His unlimited dimension. That is not possible. So it is His mercy. But He is not limited with three dimensions.

Indian reporter (4): No, no, I'm not saying He is limited. As the man sees.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because he is limited . . .

Indian reporter (4): As the man's concentration through which progresses, how, in what forms he goes on seeing Him? That is what my question is.

Prabhupāda: Therefore question is just simplified, that . . . therefore we establish temple, "Here is Kṛṣṇa." That's all. If you say that "Kṛṣṇa is all-pervading. Why shall I come to the temple?" And why not in the temple if He's all-pervading? But you say: "No, I am not going to see in the temple. I shall see outside in the sky." Then you don't see. Otherwise Kṛṣṇa is everywhere, why not in the temple? What is that argument? He is here also. But according to my capacity I can see temple, Kṛṣṇa, very easily. So Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ. You come daily to the temple and see Him and think of Him. There is no . . .

Mahāṁśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, may I introduce the project over here?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Mahāṁśa: May I introduce the press to the project over here?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Mahāṁśa: So by Kṛṣṇa's grace we have been given this plot of land which is 585 . . . 565 acres exactly, in two villages, that is, Dabilpur and Kanaipali villages. Lands are situated in the jurisdiction of these . . .

Indian reporter (5): Dabilpur and what is the other?

Mahāṁśa: Kanaipali. And the lands were originally in the Venkateshvara Gorakshini Trust, and they have transferred these lands to ISKCON Venkateshvara Trust under the chairmanship of His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda. So our interest here is to . . . this area, the whole area here, is very dry. Although there is potency of . . . there is potential for tapping water, it has been left dry and unused just like so much land all over. You can see. There is so much land which is unused, vacant, just like this. So we have been given this piece of land. We want to set an example of how such wasted land can be, with proper management and organization, it can be made usable to grow food, abundant food grains and fruits and to feed unlimited . . .

Prabhupāda: And offer them to Kṛṣṇa and give to them prasādam.

Mahāṁśa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That is our mission. We are already giving prasādam daily in the evening. There is no question of making profit.

Indian reporter (5): So anyone can come and live here.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Indian reporter (5): Irrespective of religion . . .

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Actually that is happening. Somebody has come from Germany, somebody from . . . (indistinct) . . . somebody Australia, somebody . . .

Indian reporter (6): And even if he doesn't subscribe the śikṣā to which you want them to. Even those who don't subscribe to . . .

Prabhupāda: Then how he can live? If he does not live like us, then how he can live?

Indian reporter (6): That is his question. Supposing he doesn't subscribe, still will he be allowed to come and live?

Prabhupāda: No, no, if he lives, then he will subscribe. Saṅgāt sañjāyate kāmaḥ. If you associate with good men you become a good man. If you associate with drunkard, you become a drunkard. So we are giving the chance, "Associate with us and you'll be devotee." That is becoming. So we are giving that chance: "Come and live with us."

Indian reporter (6): And what are the other point of stress in temples . . .?

Mahāṁśa: Yes. To facilitate a harmonious Kṛṣṇa conscious community we will have all facilities. There will be temples.

Prabhupāda: Let them come here, live peacefully, eat sumptuously, get all the other necessities of life and become Kṛṣṇa conscious. This is our . . . and we have no discrimination, Hindu, Muslim, Christian. No. We have got many Christians, many Jews, many Hindus, many Muslims, many Africans. They are taking to Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Indian reporter (5): Even in India, Muslims are taking to Kṛṣṇa consciousness?

Prabhupāda: Well, Muslim India or same India, those who are intelligent, they are taking.

Indian reporter (5): In this country also have they taken?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Some of the Pakistanis, they have taken. Of course, he is living in foreign country.

Indian reporter (5): Doesn't matter whatever; but living in Islam.

Prabhupāda: One Dr. Ramjan, he is the professor in Portland. He is my disciple. I have given him the name Rāmarañjana from Ramjan.

Indian reporter (3): He has renounced his religion of Islam.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is there. Yes. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam (BG 18.66). That is wanted.

Indian reporter (3): Can you repeat his name, please?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Indian reporter (3): Can you give his name?

Prabhupāda: I said, Ramjan, Dr. Ramjan, in Portland University.

Mahāṁśa: Also Ātreya Ṛṣi.

Prabhupāda: Ah, Ātreya Ṛṣi, yes. He is Iranian.

Dr. Ramachandra: He is also Muslim?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Many Iranians, they have become our devotees. We have got a temple in Tehran.

Devotee: In Hyderabad there is Muslim. He is a Life Member.

Prabhupāda: No, that, Life Member . . . God consciousness . . . who will deny God? It is a science. So we are teaching the science, not the bigotry, "my God," "your God." God is one. Gold is gold. Gold does not become Hindu gold, Muslim gold or Christian gold. Anywhere gold is available, it is gold. That is our definition. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmaḥ (SB 1.2.6). That is highest, topmost type of religion, yato bhaktir adhokṣaje, where one can learn how to love God, that's all. That is wanted. We are teaching that. There is no question of "this God," "that God." God is one. You just practice how to love Him. Then your religion is first class.

Indian reporter (5): But why give names to Him? Why give names to that God?

Prabhupāda: No name. When I say yato bhaktir adhokṣaje, this is not name. Adhokṣaja means "who is beyond your sense perception."

Indian reporter (5): It can be Allah, Christ, even Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But you must know what is meaning of God. That's all. His name . . . just like water. You say "water"; he says pāni; he says autuk. So water is water. Similarly, you must know what is God. Name does not matter. But Kṛṣṇa is the perfect name. Kṛṣṇa, according to Sanskrit, "all-attractive." The God must be all-attractive; otherwise how He is God? That is the perfect name. Now, if you want to give another name we have no objection. There are hundreds and thousands of names, whatever you like. But it must be God's name. You must understand what is God. Then it is perfect. (aside) Get on this light. It is scientific. It is not a religious sentiment. Why they should manufacture God? God is God. Gold is gold. And God definition is there in the Vedic literature.

aiśvaryasya samagrasya

vīryasya yaśasaḥ śriyaḥ

jñāna-vairāgyayoś caiva

sannam iti bhaga . . .

(Viṣṇu Purāṇa 6.5.47)

Bhagavān. These are the bhāgas, opulences. One who possesses all these opulences, He is God, Bhagavān. Asty arthe vatup. So all opulences. God is not shortage of opulences. All opulences. All the riches. Bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram (BG 5.29). This is God. He is the proprietor of everything.

So unless you accept this formula, how you get conception of God? God is not a proprietor of three bīghās of land. Here is God: sarva-loka-maheśvaram. That is God. God is not limited. He is unlimited. I can say I have got lakh of rupees, you can say you have got crore of rupees, but God says: "I am the proprietor of all the riches." That we cannot say. That is God's wealth. And because He is the proprietor, He is the enjoyer, supreme enjoyer, bhoktā. But we are manufacturing different bhoktās, therefore there is controversy. If we accept "God is bhoktā—we are simply dependent on Him," then the whole question is solved. The United Nation is . . . (break)

Indian reporter (5): . . . has food got to do with?

Prabhupāda: Yes. God says, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati (BG 9.26). He never said, māṁsaṁ din māṁ māṁsam. (laughter) If you are God conscious, then you must give. Suppose you are here. If I invite you, then I'll ask you, "Sir, how can I serve you?" If you say: "Give me this kind of food," then that is real service. And you do not like something, and if I say: "Oh, this flesh is very nice. You take it," is that service? God demands this. Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati. So we are God's servant. We are giving with these groups of food. And after He's eating, we are taking. We are servant. We cannot say: "My dear master, I like this flesh. You take it." That is not service. So therefore fool has to do everything because God wants it. And if you say: "God is nirākāra. He has no mouth, no head, tail," then you can manufacture. But here God says.

Indian reporter (6): Now that you have established the āśrama, will you be spending part of the year here?

Prabhupāda: Yes, I have got so many centers that if I stay in each center three days, the whole year is finished. (laughs) What can be done?

Indian reporter (5): Swāmījī, how many āśramas and things you have?

Prabhupāda: Hundred and two—big, big āśramas. And we are feeding twenty thousand men daily, without any income. The God sends. Yoga-kṣemaṁ vahāmy aham (BG 9.22). We are spending twelve lakhs of rupees per month in New York, and similarly other centers.

Indian reporter (6): Twelve lakhs also in Delhi center only?

Prabhupāda: New York. New York.

Indian reporter (5): Where do you get these funds?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Indian reporter (5): Where do you get these funds?

Prabhupāda: God sends.

Indian reporter (5): God?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian reporter (5): But he's not sending funds, the God, planning commissioner.

Prabhupāda: Because he is not devotee. How He'll send? You feed your son, not the outsider.

Indian reporter (5): But God doesn't discriminate.

Prabhupāda: So that, general food is there, but special, special mercy is for the devotee. Just like you have got sympathy for all the children, but you have got special sympathy for your own children.

Indian reporter (4): How many āśramas do you have in India?

Prabhupāda: India, I have got about six, seven.

Devotee: Eight.

Prabhupāda: Eight. Out of 102, in India I have got only eight. In America we have got forty centers.

Hari-śauri: Fifty with the farms.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Hari-śauri: Fifty, more than fifty, with the farms.

Prabhupāda: Farms.

Indian reporter (3): Fifty, five zero.

Indian reporter (5): Yes, five zero.

Indian reporter (3): Here?

Prabhupāda: No, in America. We have got farms like this. They are very successful. They are eating fresh vegetables, fresh grains and milk, and chanting. The temple is there. They have left the city life. So I want to organize that here also. We have already one in Navadvīpa. The devotees are there. They are having their own cloth, own food, own milk, residence, and chanting. That's all.

Indian reporter (3): Total membership for around the world?

Prabhupāda: Total membership is practically unlimited. Because we are now getting opposition, so . . . but actually dedicated life, about ten thousand like these boys.

Indian reporter (5): What's going to be the name of this āśrama?

Prabhupāda: It is already told. It is ISKCON Venkateshvara Trust.

Indian reporter (5): The name of the Trust will be the name of the āśrama.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari-śauri: New Naimiṣāraṇya?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Hari-śauri: New Naimiṣāraṇya?

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is secondary, but legal is . . .

Dr. Ramachandra: Shall we go now?

Mahāṁśa: I'll take them around.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Show them. Thank you very much. (break)

Indian reporter (8): Mr. Patel?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian reporter (8): Did he invite you or . . .?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian reporter (8): Any idea of the topics?

Prabhupāda: About Bhagavad-gītā. Some of them, they are a little surprised how I have alone spread this Kṛṣṇa consciousness all over the world, and all the yogīs and svāmīs, they could not rise, combined together. That is his little surprise.

Indian reporter (8): Did it surprise Bhave?

Prabhupāda: Yes, otherwise why he is inviting me? He could not do.

Indian reporter (8): And Swāmījī, when you are meeting Bhave?

Devotee: Eighteenth.

Prabhupāda: Eighteenth. Not only him, but there are so many svāmīs. They are also going. But not a single Kṛṣṇa devotee they could turn. That's a fact. For the last two hundred years. That's a fact. You cannot deny the fact. But within ten years we have got so many centers and so many . . . that is little surprising.

Indian reporter (8): You'll be talking about the cow protection also.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Whatever Kṛṣṇa has said. Kṛṣṇa says, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). He is giving you. That is our duty. I told these boys, "The cows, whether they give milk or not milk, it doesn't matter. They should be given protection."

Indian reporter (8): They should be given . . .?

Prabhupāda: Given protection. If Kṛṣṇa says go-rakṣya . . . He doesn't say only give protection to the milk cow.

Indian reporter (8): Once they expire, how do you propose to dispose of the body?

Prabhupāda: Then they can eat, those who are eating cows. Just like in our country the chāmāras, they take away and take the skin for preparing shoes and eat the flesh and use the bone. So we request those who are flesh eaters that "Wait up to the natural death. Why you are killing?"

Indian reporter (9): So you support actually government ban of slaughter.

Prabhupāda: Certainly.

Indian reporter (9): After the cow is dead, if the flesh is taken, it is . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian reporter (9): You have no objection.

Prabhupāda: No. The vultures, they live on the cow's flesh, so what objection we have got? We don't . . . we say: "Don't kill."

Indian reporter (9): After the natural death, not slaughter.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. If they are . . . now you can do whatever you like. Our philosophy . . .

Indian reporter (9): It is only ten-year-old movement.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian reporter (9): It started in . . .

Prabhupāda: It started in actually 1967. But the preliminary arrangement was made from 1965. Two years I had to spend for making the suitable ground.

Indian reporter (9): Obviously the first one you started in the United States.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian reporter (9): The first āśrama.

Prabhupāda: Yes. New York.

Indian reporter (9): And that was in '67.

Prabhupāda: Yes. It was registered in . . . by the end of '66.

Hari-śauri: July '66.

Prabhupāda: July '66. And then it took some time to find out some place. So in '67 I found out some place.

Indian reporter (9): But you don't have an overall budget of all these 102 āśramas, for daily expenditure.

Prabhupāda: I have my Book Trust. The daily collection of Book Trust is five to six lakhs of rupees. Daily.

Indian reporter (9): Daily. Oh, Book Trust. Oh, by the sale of books.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And I have asked them, "Fifty percent, you print books again, and fifty percent, you spend." That's all. Same thing.

Indian reporter (9): Spend on what?

Prabhupāda: Spend for this purpose, propagation. That is my mi . . . and if I would have taken some royalty, then my daily income would have been not less than 75,000 per day.

Indian reporter (9): After income tax, little would be left. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: There is no income tax. We are charity.

Indian reporter (9): 75,000 daily, you said.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because five to six lakhs daily collection. If I take minimum fifteen percent, what it comes to? Big, big authors, they get twenty-five percent.

Indian reporter (9): But one . . . (indistinct) . . . I think in this temple . . . some of your books are, rather, prohibitively costly.

Prabhupāda: Yes, this was meant for the outsider. Because our countrymen, they are learned, they don't require.

Indian reporter (9): No, no, but are you keeping it for other . . .

Prabhupāda: They are so learned, they don't require anybody. (laughter) Therefore it is prohibited. Better they do not take it. Otherwise they will misinterpret. That's all. Their only business is misinterpret. Therefore the prohibitive price.

Indian reporter (9): There is something which is difficult to make them understand.

Prabhupāda: Therefore better they do not take it.

Indian reporter (9): It's easy to go in the virgin soil.

Prabhupāda: That means they do not understand what is the meaning of śāstra. They want to interpret śāstra in their own way. That is the difficulty. Big, big person . . .

Indian reporter (9): Real testing would be only in India in that case.

Prabhupāda: No, Kṛṣṇa does not speak for Indians. He is for everyone.

Indian reporter (9): The sections of your movement accept in that sense.

Prabhupāda: No, they have given up. They have purposefully given up that, "This religion and śāstra has killed our nation. Better give it up. Throw it in the water." This is the leaders' plea. Therefore they are changing. They have altogether rejected this.

Indian reporter: No, they don't reject. They give religious freedom.

Prabhupāda: What is freedom? That "Whatever you like, you do."

Indian reporter: No, not that.

Prabhupāda: So then what is freedom?

Indian reporter: Whichever religion I like, I can . . . free to follow it.

Prabhupāda: This freedom means you can manufacture your own religion, and this is freedom. They want this freedom, that you can manufacture. Yato mata tato patha, as the Ramakrishna Mission says that, "You can manufacture your own way of religion."

Dr. Ramachandra: Somebody said religion is the opium of the masses.

Prabhupāda: Yes, they will say.

Dr. Ramachandra: That is . . . they trained us.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Ramachandra: I think you're correct in saying that the government has rejected it, in that sense.

Prabhupāda: But they do not know what is religion. That is the difficulty. Religion is here. Kṛṣṇa says, mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). This is religion.

Indian reporter (9): But recently a political party also has alleged that ISKCON temples have become abode of the CIA agents. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian reporter (9): What do you say for it?

Prabhupāda: We are detecting who is irreligious. That's all. That is our business.

Indian reporter (3): They are detecting who is irreligious.

Prabhupāda: He is going on in the name of religion, but he does not know what is religion. So that we are detecting. You can say like that. This is our business.

Indian reporter (3): It was an allegation by an important . . .

Prabhupāda: It is allegation. And they are so fools that the Americans, they have come here to become Vaiṣṇava and starvation and they have become religious. They have no food there, and they have come to me, and they have no dress, they have . . . and this boy is English boy. He is giving me massage as if he's a poor man's son. This is . . . is he poor man's son? Why he is giving massage? We are Indian, poor Indian. He is not in need of money. He even buys his own cloth. The other day I was chastising him, "Why you are purchasing? You take." "No, I have got money." Just see. This is their position.

Dr. Ramachandra: Sir, may we take leave?

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Yes. Jara theek se lijiye, humlog CIA hain. (Take it properly, we are the CIA.) (laughter)

Dr. Ramachandra: This is wild allegation.

Prabhupāda: It is no reason . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . as if they have no money to go to the hotel.

Dr. Ramachandra: In India everything is after CIA now.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Dr. Ramachandra: Everything is after CIA.

Prabhupāda: And in Parliament it has been denied. Rather, Home Member said that, "We have no information that they are CIA." Parliament challenged, "What steps you are going to take?" And "No step. There is no information." (background conversation) They are afraid of the American government because of this Bangladesh affair. And otherwise government appreciates this movement. But because the Americans are there, they think, "Some may do something," in this way. Yes. But there is no such chance. They are all devotees. They have nothing to do . . .

Dr. Ramachandra: This is a purely religious movement.

Prabhupāda: That is right. They have nothing to do with politics. And if they found any politics, they can hang me. I shall go.

Dr. Ramachandra: I am doctor from Hyderabad, so I wanted to pay my respects to you.

Prabhupāda: Oh. Thank you very much.

Dr. Ramachandra: I am eye specialist practicing in Hyderabad.

Prabhupāda: You are very qualified.

Dr. Ramachandra: With your grace. So I have been thinking of meeting you for a long time, and when I was told you are leaving tomorrow, then I said I would come and pay my respects to you.

Prabhupāda: Very good. Very good. Thank you.

Dr. Ramachandra: It's our luck that I could meet you. You are a great leader of . . . religious leader, you see, international. And you belong to order of the Caitanya Maṭha.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Ramachandra: It's a great bhakti movement. So any services I am prepared to give for the āśrama, with your . . .

Prabhupāda: (aside) So keep this card. The Dr. Ramachandra is ready.

Dr. Ramachandra: I am on telephone also.

Prabhupāda: So any help you want, he'll give. It is very nice. Phir aaiye. (Come again.)

Dr. Ramachandra: I only want that your movement should utilize my services, because I believe service to mankind is service to God.

Prabhupāda: No, no, service to God is service to mankind. If you pour water in the root, then it is service to the tree. And if you pour water on the leaf, then nobody is served. Everything will be dry, that's all. That is imperfect service. If you have got realization of God, why should you give only human being service? Why not tiger? He is also . . . Kṛṣṇa says: "They are also My sons." That means you discriminate. That is not that . . . father will be satisfied when all the sons are given, not partial, not partial. Suppose I have got five children. If you give service to one children, so I'll ask that, "Why not other children?" Naturally.

Dr. Ramachandra: Discrimination comes.

Prabhupāda: Discrimination comes. So if you have realized God, then you must be learned. Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18).

Dr. Ramachandra: Śuni caiva śva-pāke ca paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18).

Prabhupāda: Why you make distinction, daridra-nārāyaṇa? Why not dhanī-nārāyaṇa? If Nārāyaṇa is everywhere, why not dhanī? So our vision is either he is dhanī or daridra, he is blind because he does not know God.

Dr. Ramachandra: You want to give light.

Prabhupāda: That's all. We do not discriminate in that way. We discriminate in this way, that "Here is a man who knows about God, and here is a man who does not know."

Dr. Ramachandra: Any service for āśrama, I am volunteering, sir.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Service . . . so long we have got this body, we require your service. We have got the eyes. Naturally . . .

Dr. Ramachandra: So you can kindly tell your disciples

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. So take. He's so kind. That's it. (end)