731101 - Arrival - Delhi

Conversations by Date, 1973

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

731101AR-DELHI - November 01, 1973 - 35:50 Minutes

Prabhupāda:

anarthopaśamaṁ sākṣād

bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje

(SB 1.7.6)

This, the present material civilized life, is anartha, unwanted. But still we have accepted it. This is . . . (indistinct) . . . things are not wanted—this body, material body, it was not necessary. We have got our spiritual body. Just like in India, the tropical climate, we do not require any heavy clothing. But still sometimes you find to become a gentleman they load with heavy clothing, unnecessarily. (laughs) It is simply a habit.

Otherwise, in India plain cloth is sufficient. Most of the . . . most part of the year in the villages, they remain naked body. There is no need of any heavy clothing. But sometimes, to keep up the modern civilization, we dress heavily with coats, pants and necktie and . . . just see them covered. So unwanted. Similarly, we have got our spiritual body. This material body is unwanted. There is no need.

So our Vedic civilization is to minimize the necessities, artificial necessities of the body. Therefore a mendicant, a sādhu, lies down on the floor; a brahmacārī lies down on the floor. Simple, for society's sake, a loincloth. Bare necessities. Sannyāsī means the bare necessities. Brahmacārī means bare necessities. Only the gṛhastha , because they have to keep up the pace with the society, they require little gorgeous dress. So minimum necessities. Reduce. Just like Śukadeva Gosvāmī says, for persons who are desiring to advance in spiritual life, he says that "When there is by nature bedding, nice grass, just lie down. Why you are after cot and mattress?"

Now, "All right, the bedding is there. Where is the pillow?" He says then, "You have got this pillow: hand. Why should you try for another pillow?" Then, "Where is home?" "Oh, don't you find the caves?" And then, "Where is food?" "Oh, don't you find trees, their fruits?" "And where is water?" "Oh, don't you find this river, there is water?" "And where is the pot?" "Oh, you take pot like this." Then, "I must have a temple." "No, there is no necessity of temple; the Lord is within your heart." You see? The everything's simplified. No artificial necessity.

And then again, he says: "All right, if you are unable to, I mean to say, equalitize with this paraphernalia, then why you are so much worried? Do you think that Kṛṣṇa will not provide you? He's providing everyone, and not to His devotee? Why you are so much anxious?" Kasmād bhajanti kavayo dhana-durmadāndhān (SB 2.2.5). He says: "Why should you go to a moneyed man for begging? Make your life simplified, and live peacefully and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." That Śukadeva Gosvāmī is prescribing. But it is very difficult for the modern man to adopt. Śukadeva Gosvāmī was never dependent on anyone. He was naked even. He didn't require clothing also. He was naked.

So we should minimize anartha. Anartha means unwanted things we have habituated to use. They are called anartha. This body, this is also unwanted, but we have got it because we want it.

anarthopaśamaṁ sākṣād

bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje

(SB 1.7.6)

So if you want to get rid, out of these clutches of this anartha, unwanted things, then bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje. Take to bhakti-yoga. Bhakti-yoga to whom? Adhokṣaje, to Kṛṣṇa.

anarthopaśamaṁ sākṣād

bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje

lokasyājānato . . .

(SB 1.7.6)

But people do not know it. They do not know how to reduce the necessities of life to the minimum. That we teach us when we take to bhakti-yoga. And Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is there. Bhakti-yoga.

Then Vyāsadeva, after compiling this book, he educated his son, Śukadeva Gosvāmī, about this Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, and he first spoke in the assembly at the time of death of Mahārāja Parīkṣit, seven days before his death. He first spoke this Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, and in that meeting Sūta Gosvāmī was present. So he also learned Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam from him. In those days there was no necessity of noting down or writing. Simply once heard, everyone remembered. The memory was so sharp. All the Vedic literatures, there was no need of printing. One or two book maybe handwritten, but there was no printing press, neither there was necessity of printing books. Nowadays people have lost their memory; therefore printed books are required. Otherwise, there is no necessity.

anarthopaśamaṁ sākṣād

bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje

lokasyājānato vidvāṁś

cakre sātvata-saṁhitām

(SB 1.7.6)

(people talking) (aside) Who are these boys?

(pause)

So, any question?

Devotee (1): Will we get our memory back, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Devotee (1): Will we ever get our memory functioning properly again?

Prabhupāda: Yes. When the anartha, unwanted body's . . . body's covering of the spiritual body. We have got this spiritual body. When you get your spiritual body, then the natural memory is liberated. Everything is there. It is the diseased condition, anartha. In diseased condition . . . just like in high fever one does not act memory. Anādi-bahirmukha yei kṛṣṇa bhuli (CC Madhya 20.117). We have forgotten Kṛṣṇa.

Our memory is so lost that we have lost the memory of Kṛṣṇa, although Kṛṣṇa is our . . . we are part, and Kṛṣṇa is the whole; we are so intimately connected. So we have lost the memory of Kṛṣṇa. Bhuli' gela (CC Madhya 20.117). Bhuli' gela means forgotten. So Kṛṣṇa consciousness . . . consciousness means to revive that memory. It is there. Somehow or other, it is conditioned. When you condition this material body, you have forgotten.

Devotee (1): Does the spiritual body grow gradually, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Devotee (1): Does the spiritual body develop gradually?

Prabhupāda: Not develop. It is already there; it is covered. There is no question of development. It is there. Unless it is there, how we are moving? This is a fact—open secret. As soon as the spiritual body goes, this body has no value. Just like my this coat. If the coat is out of my body, then it has no value, although the coat has hands and body; it looks like another body. Similarly, the real body supports the spiritual body. That is already there. Otherwise how this body is moving? It is common sense only. Just like this coat is moving because it is on my real body, so far we have got.

Similarly this real body, this is also another dress. This is also moving because there is spiritual body. Why don't you understand? This form out of this body cannot move. You hang it on the hanger, it will remain there for millions of years. But so long as this body . . . because at the end it has got hand, it has got body. Similarly, because the spiritual body is there, this material body appears to be moving. What is the difficulty to understand?

Devotee (1): Well, the spirit soul is so small, infinitesimally small . . .

Prabhupāda: Small, it may be small . . . just like this body is smaller than this coat.

Devotee (1): Yes.

Prabhupāda: So what is the difficulty?

Devotee (1): So there is a correspondence between the motion of the spiritual body and the motion of the material body?

Prabhupāda: Why don't you understand this, that this, this coat must be bigger than this body. But because this body is moving, this coat is moving. Similarly, the spirit soul may be smaller than this body, but still, because the spirit soul is moving, therefore this body.

Devotee (1): Oh.

Visal: Your Divine Grace, I understand that the spirit soul is one ten-thousandth the size of the tip of the hair, and in the spiritual world, is the size the same size?

Prabhupāda: No. When you get your spiritual body, you can enhance your body as you like. (laughter) Just like Kṛṣṇa can enhance the body—Varāha mūrti—which can lift this Earth on the tusk of the Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) . . . first of all, the Varāha mūrti came like a small germ from the nostril of Brahmā. And the Brahmā said, "What is this?" (laughter) And then became proof: "verrrhhh-verrrhhh-verrrhhh-verrrhhh," (laughter) so big that it covered the sky. Similarly, spiritual body means all freedom. You can increase; you can decrease. You can go anywhere; you can do whatever you like. That is spiritual body.

Indian guest: (indistinct) . . . is this another approach to renounce all this, our body?

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Indian guest: Is this another approach to renounce this body, this material body?

Prabhupāda: I don't follow.

Devotees: Repeat the question.

Prabhupāda: You please stand.

Indian guest: Is this, in our approach to renounce material body, to reach that spiritual?

Woman devotee: He's saying is this an approach to renounce the material body?

Prabhupāda: Approach . . .

Indian guest: No, reach . . . already know whether to reach . . .

Prabhupāda: Where is this?

Indian guest: To renounce this material body.

Devotee: To renounce.

Prabhupāda: Renounce . . .

Woman devotee: To renounce the body, he is saying.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So long you have material desires, you grow a material body. And as soon as you stop material desires, then your spiritual body is automatically there. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9), in the Bhagavad-gītā, that after quitting this body, no more developing another body, material body. Tyaktvā. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti. We take birth to accept a material body. We enter into the womb of a particular type of mother to create a particular type of body. So when you become completely spiritualized, then you don't enter into the body of a material mother and create . . . develop a material body, then come out from the womb and work. Is that clear?

Indian guest: Yes, very clear.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee (3): Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Devotee (3): In the Śrī Īśopaniṣad, in one of your purports, in one argument to repute the impersonalist view, you make one statement which said that it is not that this . . . it is not that the spiritual world is formless, but it is that this material world is formless, and it takes the shape to assume the spirit soul. So I want to ask a question—what about the 8,400,000 species of life and all those shapes that are temporary? Because the soul is always changing from one body to another.

Prabhupāda: Not changing; transmigrating.

Devotee (3): Transmigrating, yes, from one body to another . . .

Prabhupāda: One . . . just like we are in this room, this is another room. You can go to a small room, we can go to a beautiful room, we can go to a rotten room. (laughter) So we are changing different apartments, but I am the same man.

Devotee (3): It says something like the material nature is formless, but it takes a shape according to the form of the spirit soul.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee (3): Well, the spirit soul is not in the form of hogs . . .

Prabhupāda: Spirit soul . . . spirit soul is the same, but it is accepting different apartments.

Devotee (1): So like clay: it can be turned into clay pot, or it can be turned into brick, or so many other types of things, the material energy can be changed into so many shapes.

Prabhupāda: It is changing . . .

Devotee (1): Then it is again crushed up . . .

Prabhupāda: The matter is that earth, water, fire . . . just like this building, you dismantle it, and you can make it a different shape, but the matter is the same. Bricks and cement and wood—the material is the same, but you can change shape, according to your desire. Similarly, this body, you change to another body, tiger's body. If you want to be tiger, nature will allow you to have a body. Then you have to enter the mother. Nature's process is like that. If you want a certain type of body, so this is destroyed: now enter another atmosphere, and you'll get a particular type of body. Daiva-netreṇa. Daiva-netreṇa means under the supervision of superior power. You are dependent. You desire something, and Kṛṣṇa gives. Similarly, if you desire simply Kṛṣṇa, He gives you a body like Kṛṣṇa. It is very simple. Kṛṣṇa is so kind that He is giving you.

bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni

yantrārūḍhāni māyayā

(BG 18.61)

Kṛṣṇa simply work . . . you desire. "Man proposes, God disposes." You desire, and Kṛṣṇa will give you. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni (BG 3.27). Daiva-netreṇa: by the order, superior order. Why there is light? Who has put the light there? Huh? (break) Whatever you desire, Kṛṣṇa will give you. Kṛṣṇa is so kind. Any kind of body you want. Body means as . . . as you desire. So just like to work something, we require particular type of instruments. Suppose we want to make a chair; then we require so many instruments.

So this is bhoga, enjoyment. Just like you are artist, you want to paint some picture, so you particular type of brush you want, particular type of colors you want. So you paint for your satisfaction of desires. And the instruments are available in the market. Similarly, you desire something, and the instrumental body will be prepared by nature under the order of Kṛṣṇa. This is followed. Daiva-netreṇa, by superior order. Kṛṣṇa knows. Kṛṣṇa is within you. He knows that you want to enjoy in such a way: "All right, you take a body like this. Enjoy." You have no discrimination for eating? "All right, become a hog." You have no shame? You want to stand naked?

"All right, become a tree. Stand naked for ten thousand years. Enjoy life." This is going on. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says: "Don't try to enjoy." Sarva-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66): "Give up this business that 'I shall enjoy this, I shall enjoy that.' Simply you surrender. Then you will be happy." Don't make your plan, that "I shall do this." That is dangerous. You simply accept this one plan: surrender to Kṛṣṇa. That life will be successful, perfect. Or any other plan you make, and then you will be unhappy. What is the difficulty?

Visal: Your Divine Grace, if a man desires a million dollars from Lord Kṛṣṇa, besides his desire for a million dollars, doesn't he have to also deserve the million dollars?

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa does not want million dollars. Why Kṛṣṇa will desire? You are desiring million dollars. What Kṛṣṇa will do with your million dollars?

Visal: Well, to give it to you, the desiring person who desires it.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Visal: You said that Kṛṣṇa will give you whatever you desire.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Visal: Let's say I desire a million dollars.

Prabhupāda: Yes, you'll get it.

Visal: Even if I don't deserve it?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Visal: Even if I don't deserve it?

Prabhupāda: No, if you don't deserve, how you will get it? Just like if you want to be a high-court judge, government can give you. But you must have the qualification. Simply you are a sweeper in the street, and you desire that, "I become high-court judge," the government is so foolish? You should desire; at the same time you must have the qualities. Then it is at the disposal of Kṛṣṇa to give you reward. What is the difficulty?

Whatever . . . first deserve, then desire. Why should you desire millions of dollars if you are a rogue? You must honestly work. You must have the business tactics, how to earn money. Then you'll get million dollars. Kṛṣṇa will help you. But if you are in the market, you are thief, you want to cheat others, then how you get? This is a crude example. First deserve, then desire. But still, if we don't desire, Kṛṣṇa helps you. The one thing is that without Kṛṣṇa's sanction, you cannot have anything. At the same time, you must be qualified to occupy that post. If you are a practicing lawyer in the court, and if you apply for a high-court judgeship, then your application will be considered.

But if you have no legal knowledge, then how you can expect to become the high-court judge? But two things must be there: first thing is you must have the necessary qualification; at the same time it must be sanctioned by Kṛṣṇa. (break) You are not independent, you are dependent on Kṛṣṇa. So-called independence is a false notion. Nobody is independent. "I am God," this is false notion.

Devotee (4): Śrīla Prabhupāda, we have minute independence.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee (4): I was wondering how that . . .

Prabhupāda: Minute independence means just like we are Indian nation, independent. Such independence that we cannot light . . . we can burn light. Government order is, "No, you cannot do this!" But we are still, we declare that we're independent nation. So your independence will depend on the independence of Kṛṣṇa. Just like your independence, individual independence, depending on the independence of the state. You cannot do anything, everything, as you like in the name of independence.

Devotee (4): So because of the sanction of the state, if the state okay's it, then you can do it. So similarly, if Kṛṣṇa sanctions it and He okay's it, then you're able to do it. I see.

Prabhupāda: But you desire to do it. Kṛṣṇa simply sanctions, "All right. You may do it."

Devotee (4): So Kṛṣṇa's sanction is just about . . .

Prabhupāda: But when you become a devotee, and if you desire something which is not favorable to your devotional service, Kṛṣṇa will not sanction it. If anyone is sincerely desiring Kṛṣṇa, at the same time desiring material enjoyment, then Kṛṣṇa will not allow him the material enjoyment. He will put him in such circumstances that he'll simply desire Kṛṣṇa. That is Kṛṣṇa's special favor.

Guest: Prabhupada, in the spiritual sky with some spiritual trees, some spiritual cows, why . . . (indistinct) . . . species of life in the spiritual world also?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Devotee (3): (explaining) Do all the eighty-four lakhs species of life exist in the spiritual world also?

Prabhupāda: No. There are things, there are species, but they are all spiritual. There are trees, but those trees are as good as Kṛṣṇa. There are cows, animals, but they're as good as Kṛṣṇa. There are flowers, fruits—everything—water, but they're all spiritual, as good as Kṛṣṇa; therefore absolute. They want to serve Kṛṣṇa like that, like . . .

Devotee (1): Are there many species existing in the spiritual sky which cannot be found amongst the eighty-four lakhs? There are . . .

Prabhupāda: That we have to see, (laughter) what kind. Be satisfied with the information you have got.

Devotee (5): Prabhupāda, when we're put into a difficult situation, is that automatically to be understood that Kṛṣṇa is testing us?

Prabhupāda: It may be due to your karma.

Devotee (5): To your karma?

Prabhupāda: Yes. But if it is due to karma, it will be minimized, because you have taken to devotional service.

Devotee (1): You know, many times we saw the devotees have received, actually, materially considered, fairly severe injuries while in devotional service. Does that mean we would have been mangled for many lifetimes?

Prabhupāda: What is that injury?

Devotee (1): Eh?

Prabhupāda: What is that injury?

Devotee (1): Well, I knew one devotee who was in a very bad automobile accident and lost . . .

Prabhupāda: But if you are not this body, where is the injury?

Devotee (1): No, but there is pain, et cetera, from karma.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is . . . that you must tolerate.

Devotee (1): But it would've been much, much worse, had we . . .

Prabhupāda: Whatever his pain is, that you have to tolerate.

Devotee (1): Yes.

Prabhupāda: That is, Kṛṣṇa says, tāṁs titikṣasva bhārata (BG 2.14): "Just tolerate. You should not be disturbed." Therefore Kṛṣṇa . . . Caitanya Mahāprabhu says:

tṛṇād api sunīcena

taror api sahiṣṇunā

(CC Adi 17.31)

We have to learn tolerance. Despite all disturbances, we have to execute Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is determination, dṛḍha-vratāḥ. Bhajante māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ (BG 7.28). Dṛḍha-vratāḥ means that I . . . I am not going to be perturbed by all this . . . by all this disturbances. I must execute. This is called dṛḍha-vratāḥ. Firmly determined.

Visal: Your Divine Grace, I still don't have it clear in my mind about the meaning of asamordhva. Now in the Bhāgavatam, it mentions Asamordhva, which is another name of Kṛṣṇa, meaning "No absolute truth is equal or greater than the Supreme Absolute Truth." And yet you say that in the spiritual world, everything is the same. A tree is the same . . . is as good as Kṛṣṇa, or a plant . . .

Prabhupāda: That is in the spiritual world, not in the material world.

Visal: I see. So even though there's spiritual variegatedness, there is no difference in the spiritual world. I see. Thank you very much.

Prabhupāda: All right.

Devotees: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end)