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770415 - Conversation - Bombay

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

770415R1-BOMBAY - April 15, 1977 - 140:22 Minutes

(Conversation with Ratan Singh Rajda M.P. "Nationalism and Cheating")

Girirāja: . . . either in Kurukṣetra or else in Vṛndāvana.

Prabhupāda: So let him do it. You suggested something?

Girirāja: Well, I suggested that he should have it in Vṛndāvana, and the delegates can stay in our guesthouse. So he liked the idea.

Prabhupāda: When he is going to hold it?

Girirāja: Well, I think in after a few months. I mean, this is just preliminary planning. One thing is, he does have a lot of faith in your words. I mean, he doesn't understand very much about Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but . . . like he wanted to know what you thought was coming in the future, so I told him that you had predicted that the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement would become stronger and stronger and that people would again become God conscious and so on. And he was really hanging on each word. He was very concerned. So then I said . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no, mean . . . and who cares for Vinoba Bhave? They are . . .

Girirāja: Well, he doesn't care.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He doesn't?

Girirāja: Sentimentally he cares, but like . . .

Prabhupāda: No, sentimentally, old man, pious man, everyone should care. But actually what he's done?

Girirāja: Actually, except for Your Divine Grace, no other leader has any real disciples, because all of their followers, they have their own ideas, which they consider more than their master. Like Mr. Bajaj . . .

Prabhupāda: Charismatic? What is the . . .? Tell.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Charismatic.

Prabhupāda: Our Dr. Stillson . . . "Charismatics . . ."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Who? Dr. Stillson Judah?

Girirāja: Yeah, he said that.

Prabhupāda: "Whatever he says, everyone believes."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's a fact. But Girirāja's point is well taken, that these other gurus, they may say that they have disciples, but their disciples are all independent.

Prabhupāda: Not disciples. They are masters.

Girirāja: Right. that's right.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Guru is a pet, you always say.

Prabhupāda: Yes. My Guru Mahārāja used to say: "They keep a pet dog. Their guru is keeping a pet dog."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Swami Cinmayananda's like that.

Girirāja: They all are. This . . . when I was at Poona, so I was meeting this man, Mr. Trelaskar. So the next house is a very wealthy widow, very wealthy widow, Sindhi lady. And one of the big gurus of Poona, this Vaswani, Sadhu Vaswani, so he comes and spends time at her house. It's really bad. And then here at . . . this morning on the beach, I went to chant my rounds. So there's another big swami, Swami Muktananda, and he was sitting on the beach. Some followers were there. And he's also staying with some, you know, rich disciple.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Female disciple.

Girirāja: Probably. I don't know.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's very popular in America.

Prabhupāda: Muktananda? Hmm.

Girirāja: And, you know, he's such a rascal that he loves dogs. He keeps dogs in his āśrama, and they're . . .

Prabhupāda: Ordinary man.

Girirāja: Yeah, right, ordinary man, that's right. In a different dress, an ordinary man.

Prabhupāda: And our is ei rūpe brahmāṇḍa bhrami . . . kona bhāgyavān jīva (CC Madhya 19.151). It is not for ordinary. Anyone who understands thoroughly Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he's not ordinary man. He's liberated man. It is not for ordinary man. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, kona bhāgyavān: "Somebody very fortunate." It is not for ordinary man. Still, we are trying to give to the mass of people as far as possible.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But we cannot compromise to do that.

Prabhupāda: It is not for ordinary man.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very important.

Prabhupāda: Therefore I stopped all these child painting book and . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. Prabhupāda got some . . . one day, I remember, in Māyāpur he received some pictures of children, painted, and actually you were not that impressed by it. I was surprised, 'cause I thought, "Well, this is very nice." But Prabhupāda wasn't very pleased. He said, "This is not a sentimental process. They should be studying how to speak in the Sanskrit, reading, writing Sanskrit and English and study the books."

Prabhupāda: So arrange for the State Bank coming as soon as possible. That will facilitate our business.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda wanted to know, Girirāja, whether you thought Bank of America would give interest on a savings account weekly. We know they're giving it on the fixed deposits.

Girirāja: I'll ask the manager.

Prabhupāda: It is a charitable institution, so you'll . . . why not give weekly?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That Kun . . . if he says no for any reason . . . (break) Here they come. (guests enter)

Prabhupāda: Aiye.

Mr. Rajda: Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Thank you very . . . aiye.

Mr. Rajda: I have brought my Parik, Mohendralal Parik.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Mr. Rajda: Here is Mr. Raju also.

Prabhupāda: Betiye.

Mr. Rajda: My wife, Mrs. Rajda; my daughter, Mitsu. This is my nephew, younger brother's son.

Mrs. Rajda: . . . (indistinct)

Mr. Rajda: How is your health now, Swāmījī?

Prabhupāda: Not very good, but as Kṛṣṇa's mercy going on. These are some of our latest publications.

Mr. Rajda: Latest publications. The get-up and all this is wonderfully attractive.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Mr. Rajda: Primer pages attracts the eye of the spectator, and contents are, no doubt, they are divine.

Prabhupāda: Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam amalaṁ purāṇam (SB 12.13.18). This is the regrettable fact, that we have got in India the real knowledge . . .

Mr. Rajda: Real . . .?

Prabhupāda: Real knowledge. And we have locked up that knowledge.

Mr. Rajda: We have locked up. That is the greatest crime we have committed.

Indian man (1): We have not allowed it to grow all over the world.

Prabhupāda: Jñāna-khala. Sarasvatī jñāna-khale yathā satī (SB 10.2.19). There is a verse like this in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Jñāna-khale. If you have got some knowledge, you should distribute it. That will glorify you, not that, "I have got some knowledge. I'll keep it secret." So India has got such exalted vast knowledge of spiritual life, and that is locked up. We are imitating the Western dog-dancing. This I wanted to bring to your notice. This will not do any good. So some arrangement should be made that this exalted knowledge of India must be distributed. That I have begun with my humble . . .

Mr. Rajda: No, that is very nicely done.

Prabhupāda: But I have no co-operation of the authorities. That is most regrettable. So now there is change of government.

Mr. Rajda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: And Morarji is very religious person.

Mr. Rajda: Yes, he is a highly religious man.

Prabhupāda: So why not attempt? At least keep an ideal institution.

Mr. Rajda: Correct.

Prabhupāda: Just like for technical knowledge, if there is a good medical college any part of the world, people go there without any consideration of nationality or anything. Similarly let there be an ideal institution in India so that the whole world will come and learn.

Mr. Rajda: We had those universities, Takshashila and Nalanda . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Mr. Rajda: . . . in ancient days.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Mr. Rajda: And people from all over the world were coming.

Prabhupāda: So why don't you invite now?

Mr. Rajda: Correct.

Prabhupāda: We go there for imitating their technology. But who comes here to learn something?

Mr. Rajda: Something. Quite right.

Prabhupāda: But we have got. The example is already set up. These boys, they have not come here for learning your cycle manufacturing. They have enough of it.

Mr. Rajda: That matter of cycle he is doing.

Prabhupāda: And we are proud of manufacturing cycle and sewing machine. (Mr. Rajda explains in Hindi to other guests) So that is my request, that I have started it. Make it an organized institution that the people from all parts of the world . . .

Mr. Rajda: Would come over here.

Prabhupāda: . . . would come here and learn this knowledge. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission is . . .

Mr. Rajda: Gauḍīya mission.

Prabhupāda: Not Gauḍīya mission. Caitanya's mission, Lord Caitanya. You know Lord Caitanya.

Mr. Rajda: Yes, yes, yes, Caitanya Mahāprabhu.

Prabhupāda: So He declares that bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra (CC Adi 9.41): "Anyone who has taken birth as human being, not cats and dogs . . ." Cats and dogs, they simply jump whole night, "Gow! Gow! Gow! Gow! Gow!" That is another thing. We find so many dogs, whole night busy, watching. Whose property he is watching? But he . . . he has got this business—very busy. As soon as some motorcycle or some . . . "Gow! Gow! Gow! Gow! Gow! Gow!" watching, watching, watching. So therefore this is business of cats and dogs. But human being's business is different. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, bhārata-bhūmite haila manuṣya-janma yāra (CC Adi 9.41): "Anyone who has taken birth as a human being in India, bhārata-bhūmi . . ." Janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra, "first of all make your life perfect"—you have got the opportunity, Vedic culture—"and then distribute the knowledge all over the world for doing good to the whole human society." That will glorify the prestige of India. So why not continue this? Let there be an institution fully following the principles of Bhagavad-gītā, Bhagavad-gītā as it is. Then people will be benefited. If you say, "It is secular," Bhagavad-gītā is for every man. There is no question of Hindu, Muslim, Christian or this or that. No. When Kṛṣṇa says:

dehino 'smin yathā dehe
kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā
tathā dehāntara-prāptir
dhīras tatra na muhyati
(BG 2.13)

So this growing . . . a child is growing to become a boy. A boy is growing to become a young man. A young man is growing to become an old man. So what is the secular? Everyone grows. Does it mean, when it is spoken in the Bhagavad-gītā, it is only meant for the Hindus?

Mr. Rajda: It is universal activities.

Prabhupāda: It is universal; science. It is science. So why this science is kept locked up and distorted by the leaders? If you understand one line of Bhagavad-gītā, your life becomes successful. Now, our leaders are supposed to read Bhagavad-gītā, but who understands this one line, tathā dehāntara-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati (BG 2.13)? Nobody understands. And they are scholars of Bhagavad-gītā. They cannot understand this one line in the beginning. This is going on. So I would request you to take this matter seriously and . . . and it is being responded. I am writing these books on Bhagavad-gītā, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, and we are selling daily five to six lakhs worth of books. In a foreign country, where their religious system is different, and during Christmas festival we are selling our books, large quantity.

Mr. Rajda: That's a novel thing, no, novel thing.

Prabhupāda: So unless there is something substantial . . . they are intelligent.

Mr. Rajda: Intelligent people.

Prabhupāda: Why they should accept this? And this is one man's attempt.

Mr. Rajda: It has got to be institutionalized.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Why not make that? This political change, this political situation change, it will go on. Today you are powerful; tomorrow I am powerful. That does not make any difference. Indira Gandhi was so powerful. In one day everything finished. So it may be finished, my position. Mohitaṁ nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam (BG 7.13). Tribhir guṇamayair bhāvaiḥ. They do not know, behind these all activities there is a person who can do anything He likes. So what about to know about Him? So these things are there in India. The knowledge is not secret. It is open. So without distorting it, without breaking it and spoiling it, why not give it as it is for the benefit of the whole humanity? You are young man. You can think over.

Indian man (1): Make a commission.

Prabhupāda: But . . .

Mr. Rajda: With your blessings . . . with your blessing I can be sure to be able to do something.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Mr. Rajda: Last time we had talked about this, and in Delhi, actually, I was on the verge of arranging the meeting, but never here. But then our Girirāja telephoned me, and in deference to your health we didn't arrange that meeting in Delhi. When Morarji-bhai is coming here, we shall see that . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. First of all you can talk. It is not expected that everyone will be able to understand. It is not expected.

manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu
kaścid yatati siddhaye
yatatām api siddhānāṁ
kaścin vetti māṁ tattvataḥ
(BG 7.3)

It is not easy job. But still, some ideal institution should be there who are actually serious to understand. They may be given the chance. That must be there. In the university, when we were students, there were some postgraduate classes that no student was coming. But still, the university maintained that class, paying, in those days, 1,200, 1,500, salaries to the professors. They maintained that. So here there is no question of salary. Here the institution must be maintained, strictly following the principles of Bhagavad-gītā. It is open. It is not difficult at all. Just like Kṛṣṇa says the perfect life, how one can become perfect, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65): "Always think of Me," man-manāḥ, "just become My devotee," mad-bhaktaḥ, "worship Me," mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru, "simply offer your obeisances unto Me." One, two, three, four—four items. If you do one item at least, your life becomes successful. Even this child can do this. So to understand Bhagavad-gītā and follow the principle—not at all difficult. It is not reserved for any particular class of men or country or society. Such a nice thing. And the human body is meant for understanding this knowledge, not to imitate the cats and dogs, jumping. This is being done by the cats and dogs. By evolutionary process, when we come to the human form of life, it is meant for understanding this science. So this opportunity there is, but we are blocking them not to take this knowledge and try to understand how to jump like cats and dogs. Greatest disservice to the human society. We have got such chance, so instead of helping you to get the chance, if I mislead you another way, is it not greatest disservice?

Mr. Rajda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That is being done all over the world. If you simply understand this one line, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ . . . (BG 2.13). So today I am Indian, and after death I become something else. There are 8,400,000 different bodies. Today I may be very exalted minister, and tomorrow, if I become something else . . . I'll have to, because nature's law, you cannot check. Tathā dehānt . . . just like here is child. You cannot check to become young man. That is not in your power. She must become or he must become. Similarly, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ: it is not in your hand or in my hand. It is in the hand of the prakṛti. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ, ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā (BG 3.27). So there are so many things that . . . the human society requires this knowledge, and we are trying to give this knowledge alone with our humble attempt, and these foreigners are helping with their prāṇair arthair dhiyā vācā (SB 10.22.35), by their life, by their money, by their intelligence, by their words. (aside) Give them pad. They cannot sit comfortably. There is pad. Give him. Pads. Yes. Do nah. Unko bhi do. Baithiye usme. Baithiye, nahi to taklif hota hai. Baithiye. (Come on, give it. Give it to her also. Please sit down on it. Please sit down or else you will feel uncomfortable. Sit.) (sounds of furniture being moved) Sukham āsinaḥ. First of all one must . . . give her.

So we have got, at least in Bombay, the most important place in India, this institution. So come here. Try to understand the philosophy. There is no difficulty. But we neglect it. We are simply ne . . . and distorting. Everyone is giving his own interpretation. Eh? Then when, where is the importance of Kṛṣṇa? If Bhagavad-gītā is a book who is authority, and if you interpret and give your own interpretation, then where is the authority? Suppose Parliament passes one law, and if I interpret in my own way, then where is the authority of the law? This is the idea. If you want to give some idea of your own, give it separately. Why do you take Bhagavad-gītā and distort it? This is not gentlemanly, this. We are presenting, therefore, Bhagavad-gītā as it is, and it is being accepted. And before me so many svāmīs, yogīs went there. They also tried to explain Bhagavad-gītā, but nobody accepted. There was . . . in the history there was not a single devotee of Kṛṣṇa before my going. Now there are thousands. Why? The secret is that I am presenting as it is.

Mr. Rajda: As it is. Correct.

Prabhupāda: No distortion, no cheating. This is the secret. They give me credit, "Swāmījī, you have done wonderful. You have done . . ." I say the secret of wonderful is this, that I have not distorted it. I have presented Bhagavad-gītā as it is. It is open secret.

Mr. Rajda: That creates . . . it has created . . . your attempts have created a good impact on the Western world.

Prabhupāda: Everyone is . . . (indistinct) . . . but we have rejected. Our misfortune is that our property, we have rejected.

Mr. Rajda: Instead of rejecting, it would be correct as you say that we have locked it up.

Prabhupāda: That means we don't take any importance. But now, if you want to do something, then you maintain this institution rigidly, follow the principles of Bhagavad-gītā. It doesn't matter. It doesn't require many men. Ekaś candras tamo hanti na ca tārā sahasraśaḥ (Cāṇakya Paṇḍita). If there is one moon in the sky, that is sufficient. You don't require millions of stars, twinkling. So let there be an institution, and it is open to everyone. There is no question of "secular" and particular . . . let them learn this art. That is wanted. Not blindly, but apply your consideration and take it after mature judgment. No, what is that? Everything is there. There is no difficulty. Why you are neglecting this important business of India? Do you think it is right?

Mr. Rajda: One should not neglect. And as real it is done, it is better, not only for the world, for India also.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Mr. Rajda: The impediment was that all those rulers, most of them were not believing in religion. They say religion . . .

Prabhupāda: Why you are bringing religion? It is science. Why you are mistaking again? Is that religion, a child is growing to become a young man? Is that religion? It is science.

Mr. Rajda: But they do not look at it from that perspective.

Prabhupāda: That means rascals. They do not accept "Two plus two equal to four."

Mr. Rajda: Yeah, correct. Intelligent.

Prabhupāda: If we do not take mathematics as it is, and if we interpret, "Two plus two equal to three," that is rascaldom. "Two plus two equal to four," that is everywhere.

Mr. Rajda: Now could we put some concrete proposals, how do we want to proceed in this . . .

Prabhupāda: The proposal is there. Here it is already done. The same principle, the four things: man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru, mām evaiṣyasi asaṁśayaḥ (BG 18.68). These four principles, what is the difficulty? But if you are determined, "No, we shall not follow," then who can educate you? There is no loss. And if there is some gain, why not take it? We have to educate so many young men. So I think that harijana movement . . . you can bring that . . . that one gentleman, Dr. Paramar, you know him?

Mr. Rajda: Dr. Paramar?

Prabhupāda: Yes?

Mr. Rajda: Paramar, I have heard the name. Yeah.

Prabhupāda: He has regretted that, "Government has spent so much money and we have tried, but we could not improve our position."

(indistinct discussion between guest over who Dr. Paramar is)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This gentleman that Śrīla Prabhupāda was mentioning is named Professor Paramar. He's written one article.

Prabhupāda: Profess . . . Professor.

Mr. Rajda: Professor Paramar. Ah, ha, that is professor.

Prabhupāda: He is the same man?

Mr. Rajda: No, that's a different.

Prabhupāda: So they are hankering after for improving. Everyone is hankering. So let there be a demi-official, a regular institute to teach people the principles of Bhagavad-gītā as it is. Bās. Don't distort it. Don't amend it. As it is. What is the objection?

Mr. Rajda: I can't find any objection.

Prabhupāda: Bhagavad-gītā is accepted, and so far I understand that when Morarji was going to be arrested, he said that, "Let me finish my reading of Bhagavad-gītā." I read it in the paper.

Mr. Rajda: Yes, he was saying.

Prabhupāda: So he . . . he's a devotee of Bhagavad-gītā, and there are many others. So why this teaching should not be given to the whole world?

Mr. Rajda: Now, sir, daily he gets up at 3.30 a.m. does first of all his religious things, reading of Bhagavad-gītā and all this. And that goes on for two, three hours. Then, at seven, he comes out of his room after taking his bath. Then he meets the people and . . .

Prabhupāda: And these foreign boys, they begin their, this Bhagavad-gītā practice from 3.30 to 9.30. They have no other business. You see. You have studied our this Girirāja. The whole day he's doing. They're all on this. From morning, 3.30, till they are tired, 9.30, simply Bhagavad-gītā.

Mr. Rajda: Wonderful.

Prabhupāda: And we have got so many materials. If we discuss on this one line, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13), it takes days to understand.

Mr. Rajda: Quite.

Prabhupāda: Now, if this is fact, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ and na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20), what we are doing for that? This is Bhagavad-gītā. Na jāyate na mriyate vā kadācin na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre. So when my body is destroyed, I am going . . . (break) . . . personally going from door to door, selling the books and sending money. We are pushing on our mission in that way. I am not getting any help either from the government, from the public. And the record is there in the Bank of America, how much foreign exchange I am bringing. Even in this feeble health also, I am working four hours at least, at night. And they are also helping me. So this is our individual attempt. Why not come here? If you are actually very serious student of Bhagavad-gītā, why don't you come, cooperate? And harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇā manorathenāsati dhāvato . . . (SB 5.18.12). You cannot make public honest simply by legislation. That is not possible. Forget it.

Mr. Rajda: That cannot be done.

Prabhupāda: That is not possible. Harāv abhaktasya kuto . . . yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā sarvair . . . (SB 5.18.12). If you . . . if one becomes devotee of the Lord, all good qualities will be there. And harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad . . . if he's not a devotee . . . now so many things, condemnation, is going on, big, big leaders. Today's paper I have seen. This man, that man, is rejected even. Why? Harāv abhaktasya kuto. What is the benefit of becoming a big leader if he's not a devotee? (Dekhiye, sab sochiye. (Please think about it.) You are very intelligent, young, and therefore I am trying to give you some idea, and if you can give some shape to these ideas . . . it is already there. It is no secret. Simply we must be serious that this institution must be there for educating the whole human society. Never mind a very small number. It doesn't matter. But ideal must be there.

Mr. Rajda: Ideal. Correct. (indistinct aside to Girirāja) If it is possible at all . . .

Girirāja: No, no difficulty. No, no, no. No difficulty.

Prabhupāda: And we are prepared to challenge or meet challenge of any scientist, any philosopher, any politician—anyone. It is not dogmatic.

Mr. Rajda: Not dogmatic at all.

Prabhupāda: The same, it is science. And Kṛṣṇa says, begins, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13), kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā. So who can say anything against this statement? Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ (BG 9.11). But unfortunately, our people takes Kṛṣṇa as ordinary human being, as . . . avajānanti māṁ mūḍhaḥ. If we remain mūḍha, how we can be . . .? Because Kṛṣṇa comes just like a human being to teach us, we are taking that He's one of us. "Then I can also become Kṛṣṇa." This is going on. For so many thousands of years Kṛṣṇa is being worshiped as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. There are millions of temples in India for worshiping Kṛṣṇa. He is ordinary man? So many big, big leaders came and gone. Who care for them? Why Kṛṣṇa is being worshiped still? These are the questions.

Indian man (1): It is universal message.

Prabhupāda: Now universal. Yes, we have got recent pictures from our different temples. (shows BTG) Just see how they are being worshiped. This is in foreign countries. They have got their own religion. Why they should worship Kṛṣṇa? Dekhiye kitna acha-acha sab picture . . . (Just see, how beautiful these pictures are . . .)

Mr. Rajda: Yeah, the entire get-up is really perfect.

Prabhupāda: Do unhe. (Give it to them.) Prasāda? (pause as prasāda is served) What is the circulation of our this paper?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Of our magazine?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One million copies per month.

Mr. Rajda: One million per month.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's in English only. Then it also is published in Spanish and Portuguese, German, French, Dutch, Japanese, Chinese, Hindi, Bengali . . .

Prabhupāda: Gujarati.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Gujarati, Telugu. Recently we came out with Hungarian publication. (pause)

Indian man (1): Swāmījī, your idea is to have some international institution.

Prabhupāda: Yes, this is international.

Indian man (1): No, we must made to speak your needs of the mankind . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, they are following. They are following. I want to make it more speedy, but I have no help. Now, for the time being . . . now these boys, they are helping me, and government is driving them away, "Get out! Get out!" Can you not help me in this?

Mr. Rajda: Correct. Actually . . .

Prabhupāda: No Indians are coming. I am bringing men and money from there, and government is driving them, "Get out!" This is my position. And if one boy goes back and again comes—ten thousand rupees. In this way I am losing five to six lakhs of rupees per year—for nothing. This is the co-operation of the government.

Mr. Rajda: But why the government is driving them out?

Prabhupāda: This, your so-called visa.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They won't give us the proper visas so we can stay.

Prabhupāda: Just like I have got in America permanent residence. So why not give them permanent resident?

Mr. Rajda: Correct. But this problem could be settled very easily.

Prabhupāda: Kindly do that. At least . . .

Mr. Rajda: No, I didn't know. Just now I came to know. This . . . I can touch this . . .

Indian man (1): That's why we want some concrete things from you.

Mr. Rajda: That's why I asked . . .

Prabhupāda: That will be a great help immediately.

Mr. Rajda: That I'll do immediately. Now only . . . that's why I was just inquiring what concrete thing you would like to do.

Prabhupāda: Immediately kindly help me, that give at least one hundred men permanent residential permission. They are not politicians. They are not interested. They are devotee. Then I can manage this big, big establishment like Bombay, Vṛndāvana.

Mr. Rajda: Now tell me with your men written over all this. I will give you immediately.

Prabhupāda: Have you got that, made any list . . .?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I called for the names, so within a short time.

Prabhupāda: That's all. Name is there. So this is the . . .

Indian man (1): First progress the thing.

Mr. Rajda: No, no, we'll do this immediately, and even if necessary, I will fight with the government. They have got to do it. Only thing is if you can give me some note, what are the hurdles . . .

Prabhupāda: Bring some paper. Write it. Immediately begin to do this. They are coming from very rich, respectable family. They have not come here to earn money for exploit India. They have no business to do with this. I can guarantee that they will bring money from America and live here—not touch a single paisa of India.

Mr. Rajda: Correct, correct.

Prabhupāda: Now, suppose there are one hundred Americans, and if I am bringing ten lakhs of rupees per month, then what is the per capita?

Mr. Rajda: (laughter) Per capita will show . . .

Girirāja: Ten thousand.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Indian man (1): I . . . yeah, we are completely convinced. We are completely convinced. That is why I asked you, "What first step you wanted to?"

Prabhupāda: Kindly help.

Indian man (1): Concrete step.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian man (1): That, Mr. Ratan Singh is bound to do.

Prabhupāda: Kindly help me.

Mr. Rajda: No, no, we will think ourselves duty-bound. Oh, I feel intensely about it. There is no question about it.

Prabhupāda: And I guarantee that if they take any part in politics, you can drive away immediately. They have no . . . they have given everything. They are not thinking that they are Americans. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam (CC Madhya 19.170). This is the process of bhakti. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktam. Upādhi. This is upādhi. I am living being, but I have got some designation, "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim." These are designation. So then they are M.P. This is designation. You are not M.P. You are living being, part and parcel of God.

Mr. Rajda: Correct.

Prabhupāda: And this designation can be moved, removed at any moment. Indira Gandhi, no more prime minis . . .

Mr. Rajda: Gone in a wink.

Prabhupāda: Designation finished. So sarvopādhi-vinirmuktam (CC Madhya 19.170), when one become free all designation, tat-paratvena nirmalam, simply by Kṛṣṇa consciousness he becomes purified. Hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa-sevanaṁ bhakti . . . then bhakti begins.

brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā
na śocati na kāṅkṣati
samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu
mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām
(BG 18.54)

This is the preliminary condition. So it means as soon as they have become devotee, they have no more designation. This conception is not there: "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim"—no.

Mr. Rajda: Right. Very good.

Prabhupāda: Finished. Nirmala. (aside) So . . . so you are giving note?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What would you like in the note?

Mr. Rajda: Just the problems that you are . . .

Prabhupāda: Write. What I am saying, write him and give him. This is the most important point.

Indian man (1): Are there any local problems still surviving?

Prabhupāda: Our local problem . . . now, what about the Municipality?

Girirāja: Yes, that's there.

Prabhupāda: Write. Why don't you write immediately?

Mr. Rajda: Just give me a note. Wherever I can help, I will definitely do it. There is complaint, if you . . . first of all, about this visa, which is very difficult to be removed, and now . . .

Prabhupāda: In a nice paper you note.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, I'm going to type it down, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Afterwards.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Do it immediately. In the Bhāgavata it is said that one hasn't got to learn Bhāgavata, but if he simply says: "Yes, it is very nice," he gets some good result. Similarly, our movement is such that if simply one appreciates, "Yes, it is good . . ." Your chief minister has accepted, Maharastra chief minister.

Devotee (2): Yes, Chavan.

Prabhupāda: Where is that cutting that was published? He came, all, in paṇḍāl. So there is no doubt about it, that this is the best humanitarian activities. So kindly help us as far as possible.

Mr. Rajda: No, I think myself duty-bound. It is very important.

Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. Parik ji bhi thoda kripa kijiye. (Mr. Parik can also kindly help us.)

Mr. Rajda: I have talked with him also. He's always with me in this public life, right from the beginning.

Prabhupāda: You were also M.P.?

Indian man (1): No, I was a municipal councilor.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Mr. Rajda: He was a municipal councilor here in Bombay.

Prabhupāda: Oh, the municipal councilor . . . Wo humara. (Our that . . .) (aside) What is that?

Lokanātha: It's Chavan's cutting from the newspaper.

Prabhupāda: Why don't you read others? Read it loudly.

Bhakti-caru: "Chief Minister lauds Krishna movement. Kṛṣṇa consciousness was the essence of every faith and belonged to the world, Maharastra Chief Minister Mr. M. P. Chavan said at the Third International Hare Krishna Festival at the Cross Maidan in Bombay on Wednesday. Mr. Chavan lauded the work done by Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, Founder-Acharya of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness. He said that Swami was responsible for popularizing Kṛṣṇa consciousness all over the world. Speaking after the chief minister, Swami Prabhupāda emphasized the need for scientific understanding of the Bhagavad-gītā to solve the problems confronting humanity. 'When human society is without dharma,' he said, 'it becomes animal society.' The festival, scheduled to end on Tuesday, has been extended another five days."

Prabhupāda: So his wife also.

Mr. Rajda: But now, poor fellow, he's also going. That is his fate.

Prabhupāda: That's all. This is political struggle. It doesn't matter. A man is what he is. That's all. And to come to this field of activities, one has to become free from all designation. "I am the chief minister" or this or that, that is designation. So I have to give up.

Mr. Rajda: It's a temporary thing.

Prabhupāda: Temporary thing. We should not be bothering about these temporary things. And it is meant for the rulers. Bhagavad-gītā, in the fourth chapter:

imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ
proktavān aham avyayam
vivasvān manave prāhur
manur ikṣvākave 'bravīt
(BG 4.1)
evaṁ paramparā-prāptam . . .
(BG 4.2)

Devotees: Imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ.

Prabhupāda: Imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ. It is meant for the rulers, rājarṣi, not for the loafers. Imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ. Tabhi to wo log thik thik shasan kar sakte the. (That's why they could rule over their kingdoms properly.) Our this monarchy was there, but they were rājarṣis: monarch, at the same time, great saintly person. Therefore they were worshiped— Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, Mahārāja Parīkṣit, Mahārāja Ambarīṣa. They are not autocrat. Imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ. They understood the science of Bhagavad-gītā from saintly person, exalted brāhmaṇas. Then they ruled. You'll find in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam this Mahārāja Parīkṣit, grandson of Arjuna. His father died when he was in the womb of his mother. So all, everyone died. Only these five brother remained. And Parīkṣit Mahārāja, the grandson of Arjuna, he was in the womb of his mother, Uttarā. So he was also attempted to be killed by Aśvatthāmā by brahmāstra. Kṛṣṇa saved him. So anyway, the grandfathers took care of this child, baby in the womb. And when he was born . . . this is a ceremony, jāta-karma. Just after birth there is a ceremony. This is now gone, daśa, daśa-karaṇa . . . nobody is . . . so they were making horoscope, the brāhmaṇas: "So this child will be like this, like this, like this, like this." Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja's question was that, "What you are speaking, that is all right. Whether this child will be to their forefathers' reputation, how to give happiness to the subjects, prajā-pālana?" He was anxious, "How much he will be qualified, prajā-pālana, how to keep the prajās very happy? First of all see that." This was the test, prajā-pālana. And it is stated in this Bhāgavatam . . . (aside) Now find out this ruling of Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja, that chapter, first part. So there was not even disease during his reign. Ādhayo vyādhayaḥ. There was no extreme heat, there was no extreme cold, on account of this rājarṣi. And their only business was to see . . . and Lord Rāmacandra—how He was maintaining subjects like father. Therefore people are still hankering after rāma-rājya. There is a chapter, "Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira's Regime." See the Contents. (pause)

Upendra: This is when Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira was retiring, or before?

Prabhupāda: No, when he was ruling.

Upendra: Ruling, yeah.

Prabhupāda: The reign of Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, there is chapter.

Lokanātha: Shall I read?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Lokanātha: "Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, whose enemy was never born, performed his daily morning duties by praying, offering fire sacrifice to the sun-god, and offering obeisances, grains, cows, land and gold to the brāhmaṇas. He then entered the palace to pay respects to the elderly. However, he could not find his uncles or aunt, the daughter of King Subala." Should I read the purport?

Prabhupāda: No. What is the śloka?


ajāta-śatruḥ kṛta-maitro hutāgnir
viprān natvā tila-go-bhūmi-rukmaiḥ . . .

Prabhupāda: No, the śloka is, beginning is sarva-dughā mahī, like that. Parjanyaḥ . . . (pause) Ah. Kāmaṁ vavarṣa parjanyaḥ sarva-kāma-dughā mahī (SB 1.10.4). Find out this verse.

Girirāja: I can find this.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Girirāja: About how the . . . there's one . . . (aside) No, no. You want 1.2. You've found it?

Prabhupāda: This is the verse, kāmaṁ vavarṣa parjanyaḥ sarva-kāma-dughā mahī (SB 1.10.4). Ye sab Bhagavata padhaya jaye school, college me. (This Bhāgavata should be taught in schools and colleges.) So vast knowledge.

Girirāja: Should I read?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Girirāja: "During the reign of Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira the clouds showered all the water that people needed."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Read the original verse.

Girirāja: Oh, I'm sorry.

kāmaṁ vavarṣa parjanyaḥ
sarva-kāma-dughā mahī
siṣicuḥ sma vrajān gāvaḥ
payasodhasvatīr mudā
(SB 1.10.4)

Prabhupāda: Translation?

Girirāja: "During the reign of Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira the cloud showered all the water that people needed, and the earth produced all the necessities of man in profusion. Due to its fatty milk bag and cheerful attitude, the cow used to moisten the grazing ground with milk."

Prabhupāda: Abhi pani nahi milta hai, wo dudh se wo moist ho jata tha, ground. (indistinct) . . . itna dudh hota tha, wo girta tha. Wo maidan jaha gai charte the, wo moist ho jata tha. (Nowadays we don't even have adequate water but in those days the ground used to get moistened by milk. There was so much milk in the udder that it used to keep dripping on the grazing grounds and moisten it.) Now read the purport.

Lokanātha: "The basic principle of economic development is centered on the land and cows. The necessities of human society are food grains . . ."

Prabhupāda: About the land and cows, this is Bhagavad-gītā mentioned: kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). Never recommends factory. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam. So there is no question of giving protection to the cows if it gives milks only. No. Go-rakṣya. There must be protection to the cow. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Even the cows pass urine and stool, that is beneficial. And if it gives milk, then there is no question. Hmm. What is that?

Lokanātha: "The necessities of human society are food grains, fruits, milk, minerals, clothing, wood, etc. One requires all these items to fulfill the material needs of the body. Certainly one does not require flesh and fish or iron tools and machinery. During the regime of Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, all over the world there were regulated rainfalls. Rainfalls are not in the control of the human being. The heavenly king Indradeva is controller of rains, and he is the servant of the Lord. When the Lord is obeyed by the king and the people under the king's administration, there are regulated rains from the horizon, and these rains are the causes of all varieties of production on the land. Not only do regulated rains help ample production of grains and fruits, but when they combine with astronomical influences there is ample production of valuable stones and pearls. Grains and vegetables can sumptuously feed a man and animals, and a fatty cow delivers enough milk to supply a man sumptuously with vigor and vitality. If there is enough milk, enough grains, enough fruit, enough cotton, enough silk and enough jewels, then why do the people need cinemas, houses of prostitution, slaughterhouses, etc.? What is the need of an artificial luxurious life of cinema, cars, radio, flesh and hotels? Has this civilization produced anything but quarreling, individually and nationally?"

Prabhupāda: Simply fighting. They are not peaceful. That's all. Where is peace? You'll be surprised: During gas scarcity the gas was being supplied in Honolulu—this was in our presence—so the gas supply, whatever they had, distributed, and they had one sign board, "No more gas." So next man was so angry that he shot him dead. Just see. He had no more gas; he cannot supply. He became so much infuriated that he shot him dead. This is the result of this modern motorcar civilization. He thought that "Gas will not be supplied. Then I am gone. I am finished. So kill this man." This is education. Ye sab chiz phir bhi revive ho sakta hai. (All these things can be revived once again.) Provided we train at least some ideal men, everything can be done. Everything is there. There is no scarcity of knowledge in India. We have to simply take it and practically apply it, bās. Yeh attempt . . . (This attempt . . .) We are not sentimental religious group. (laughs) Everything practical. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is not like that, sentiment. Everything scientific, practical, for the good of the whole human society. Therefore I require that this must be pushed on for the whole human society, and naturally India also. (aside) The prasādam arrangement is . . .? You give each item, one each. No, no, leave it, leave it. This is . . . each item, you give one. I have got this ambition that Indian culture should be spread, and otherwise what can I do wherever . . .?

Mr. Rajda: And you have already done lot of great, noble work.

Prabhupāda: Yes, they say at least.

Mr. Rajda: It is a great movement. Naturally your Bhagavad-gītā should be given importance. It must be delivered to every corner of the world.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Mr. Rajda: It is your . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Mr. Rajda: . . . desire, I put it.

Prabhupāda: They'll be happy. They're suffering. You see? Is that civilization? "You could not supply me petrol. I shot you." What is this? How much animalistic a human being can be. (aside) Wake up. Kāma eṣa krodha eṣaḥ. The people are being educated to become too much lusty, and as soon as their lust is not fulfilled, they'll be angry. Kāma eṣa krodha eṣa rajo-guṇa-samudbhavaḥ (BG 3.37). And the krodha was . . . anger was so intense that he killed another person. No consideration that, "What he can do? The petrol is finished." He simply says: "Now my stock is finished." So therefore he should be killed?

Mr. Rajda: Now this information will . . . I shall be interested to read from it.

Prabhupāda: So where is that note? Bring. (pause) Kam se kam itna toh zarur kar djiye. (Please do at least this much.) Those who are assisting me, let them have permanent visa so that I can work peacefully.

Mr. Rajda: Correct.

Prabhupāda: And I am unnecessarily spending five to six lakhs of rupees.

Mr. Rajda: No, this was not mentioned, never mentioned before me. I will definitely take it up when I go next time to Delhi. And when I'm going on 25th, the first thing I'll do . . .

Prabhupāda: No, we approached that Brahmananda Reddy.

Mr. Rajda: Reddy's not there. They are all gone.

Prabhupāda: No, before that I met him.

Indian man (1): Now Your Grace will have to speak either with the prime minister straight, and he will swiftly done.

Mr. Rajda: No, that was not the . . . the prime minister himself will nullify. No, he will immediately grasp what is the . . . 'cause I have already talked . . .

Prabhupāda: When I was in Delhi, there was one day a meeting at Brahmananda's place, so I personally requested. So he noted down, that's all. So he's the chief man, Home Member.

Indian man (1): Home Member. But the last days his powers were very much limited in home matter. He had to look after the home ministry. And possibly . . .

Mr. Rajda: There was too much power struggle during those days. That is the main difficulty . . .

Prabhupāda: In Delhi . . .

Mr. Rajda: Everyone was struggling for his own existence in that power, in that . . . some of the people . . .

Indian man (1): Now we have got a government. The chief man of the . . .

Prabhupāda: Government.

Indian man (1): . . . the team, he is an intensely religious-minded man.

Prabhupāda: That is . . .

Indian man (1): Delivering Bhagavad-gītā.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian man (1): Practicing the principle of Bhagavad-gītā. So to him we can appeal.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian man (1): And it will, appeal go straight home.

Prabhupāda: And therefore I am so much on the . . . that a man, harāv abhakta. He is bhagavad-bhakta. Unse bahut kuch kaam ho sakta hai. Bhagavad bhakti . . . bahut jagah me hai. (A lot can be done through him. Devotional service to the Supreme Personality of Godhead . . . it is mentioned in many places.) This is another proposition.

jātiḥ śāstraṁ japas tapaḥ
aprāṇasyeva dehasya
maṇḍanaṁ loka-rañjanam
(Hari-bhakti-sudhodaya 3.11)

"Anyone who has no devotional life, for him, belonging to the great family, great nation, jāti . . ." bhagavad-bhakti-hīnasya jātiḥ tapaḥ, "all austerity, penance, everything is just like decorating the dead body." Just like a body minus life, so what is the use of decorating with sal and silk robes? Similarly, any person who may be very highly posted, but if he has no bhagavad-bhakti, then it is decoration.

jātiḥ śāstraṁ japas tapaḥ
aprāṇasyeva dehasya
maṇḍanaṁ loka-rañjanam

(claps hands) That is little applause from the foolish public. Otherwise . . .

Lokanātha: The requisition finished in next few minutes.

Prabhupāda: How many minutes? They have been detaining few minutes. Just bring immediately. You cannot detain all these important men. They have got other business.

Mr. Rajda: No, there is no other thing. Only thing, there is a function in Bombay, and I have to visit them.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (indistinct background discussion amongst guests) (aside) What is that?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "To Ratan Singh Rajda, Member of Parliament, Bombay. Dear Sri Rajda, We thank you very much for visiting us at Hare Krishna Land and for sympathetically hearing our divine master Śrīla Prabhupāda. His Divine Grace mentioned several difficulties which are impeding his great work, and you have been kind enough to promise to remove these obstacles. 1] Our men are regularly being asked to leave India. How can we manage such important projects when our men are forced to leave? Every year we have to send so many men away from India, and then again we have to bring them back. For every man who comes and goes like this, we have to spend Rs. 10,000, and in this way we are wasting not less than rupees five to six lakhs each year. Our men should be given permanent residence in India. The United States Government granted Śrīla Prabhupāda a permanent residency visa so that he could fulfill his mission in the USA. Similarly, Śrīla Prabhupāda's foreign disciples should be given permanent residency in India. Śrīla Prabhupāda requires at least one hundred men to remain in India, and he is prepared to bring rupees ten lakhs, foreign exchange, per month just to maintain them. They will not have to seek employment, they are not interested in politics, and they will not touch one paisa locally for their maintenance. Rather, they will bring money. Therefore we request that the government of India should grant permission for at least one hundred of our men. 2] Locally we are being troubled by the municipal corporation. The local councilor is trying to take over ten feet . . ." (break)

Mr. Rajda: . . . evening. And we shall see what is in the meeting. And I am meeting the commissioner also on Tuesday. So . . .

Prabhupāda: Note it.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I'll do that.

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I'm putting in an envelope.

Prabhupāda: Bring. I want that at least at the weekend respectable gentlemen come here, live here, try to understand the philosophy, and if possible render some service. That's all. We have got now nice building. Every room is air conditioned. Not that you have to go to the jungle. (laughs)

Indian man (1): (laughs) You're right.

Mr. Rajda: No, it's a nice atmosphere.

Prabhupāda: For us, we can live underneath a tree. But if I would have lived underneath a tree, you would not have come. (laughter) Therefore this building is required. So give them, one each, this magazine, latest edition. Here is. Mr. Rajda, Mr. Parik. Rajda's copy is in the red binding? That's it. No. Give him. Give him.

Mr. Rajda: So we thank you very much.

Prabhupāda: Thank you very much for your coming. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Sab kripa rakhiyega. (All of you, please be merciful unto us.)

Mr. Rajda: Before leaving, I will come again. After 24th, I am here.

Indian man (1): Thereafter, I will come, no? Once in a week or at least a fortnight.

Prabhupāda: And you are Parik.

Indian man (1): Yes.

Prabhupāda: You can study whether we are genuine or bogus parik. (laughs)

Indian man (1): That will be my privilege.

Prabhupāda: Thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya.

Devotees: Haribol!

Prabhupāda: Jaya. Phir aiyega mataji, jab . . . (Please come again mataji, whenever . . .)

Indian woman: Ji ha. Zarur ayenge. (Sure. We will definitely come.) (guests leave)

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Upendra: I'm just fixing the bedspread.

Prabhupāda: We have got these chairs. Why you should use apara . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. No more of these . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . for guests.

Prabhupāda: This may be . . . make it comfortable.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: From now on, I'll . . . (break)

Prabhupāda: That is not possible in the dog. A human being can do. So this opportunity is there, and people are not giving them this opportunity. This is the greatest harmful civilization. They are keeping them in ignorance for that. Anyway, if people agree to take our guidance, we can change the face of the world. That is a fact. Whole world will be peaceful immediately.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Maybe a possible name for this could be "Kṛṣṇa: Messiah of the Harijanas." 'Cause he published, "Who is . . ." They need a messiah.

Prabhupāda: Every one of us messiah. Anyone Kṛṣṇa conscious, he's the messiah. Every one. Why one? All of us. Gaurāṅgera bhakta-gaṇe, jane jane śakti dhari, brahmāṇḍa tārite pāre: "The devotee of Lord Caitanya, every one has so immense power that every one, they can deliver the whole universe." Gaurāṅgera bhakta-gaṇe, jane jane śakti . . . brahmāṇḍa tārite pāre . . . that is Gaurāṅga's men.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Only you are that powerful, Śrīla Prabhupāda. We're like . . .

Prabhupāda: Why you are not?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We're like the bugs.

Prabhupāda:You are my disciples. "Like father, like son." You should be. Gaurāṅgera bhakta-gaṇe. Everyone. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra' ei deśa (CC Madhya 7.128). He asked everyone, "Just become guru." Follow His instruction, you become guru. Āmāra ājñāya. Don't manufacture ideas. Āmāra ājñāya. "What I say, you do. You become a guru." Where is the difficulty? "And what is Your ājñā?" Yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa-upadeśa. Bās. Everything is there in the Bhagavad-gītā. You simply repeat. That's all. You become guru. To become a guru is not difficult job. Follow Caitanya Mahāprabhu and speak what Kṛṣṇa has said. Bās. You become guru.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We live in Bombay 54. This man lives in Bombay 52.

Prabhupāda: So it is somewhere near.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It must be pretty near.

Girirāja: I think, Bandra.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: First rows.

Girirāja: Bandra or Khar.

Prabhupāda: So contact him. If he's sincere, let him cooperate with us. We'll make everything nice. And if they want to eat hog's flesh and wine, at the same time become harijana, (laughs) that is not possible.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So there's certain stipulations to our taking responsibility for the one hundred million harijanas.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. We can take them. Why one hundred million? Whole universe we can take. It is Kṛṣṇa . . . method is simple: you have to follow Caitanya Mahāprabhu and speak Bhagavad-gītā. Bās. Where is the difficulty? Why one hundred million? All, whole universe we can take, provided they are prepared. Our business is not difficult. What Caitanya Mahāprabhu has said we have to execute and speak Bhagavad-gītā. Bās. What I am doing? These two things are there. Not at all. But these rascal will not take. They will manufacture their own way of life. That is the . . . that is dog's obstinacy. Therefore Ṛṣabhadeva says, "Don't become hog and dog." Nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujām (SB 5.5.1). The difficulty is that you can preach nice thing, but they will not accept.

Girirāja: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Then what can be done? A man has fallen in the dark well, crying. You give him one rope: "Catch it." But he'll not catch. Then how you can deliver? Let him suffer. So he had asked him to go to the municipal . . .?

Girirāja: Yes, 3:30 on Monday. These M.P.'s are just here for a few days, and they have very busy schedule. So I have arranged for one man to come tomorrow. He can see you . . . (break)

Prabhupāda: So? Now, this nationalism idea, so you have to trace out the whole history. By introducing nationalism, what improvement came? Nationalism era, it began in Europe, the Romans. They wanted to spread. Where are the Romans now? Carthagian . . . (indistinct) . . . Egyptian, Grecian, then, later on, Moguls, then British. So where are these groups? "Combined together, exploit others." That was, that means, a gang of rogues. Rogues and thieves, they . . . And by doing that, what they have actually done? The Romans, now their broken buildings are there. And people go to see the fun, how they used to enjoy. What is that called?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Colosseum. That's the Greek Colosseum, they . . .

Prabhupāda: By keeping one lion and fighting him, and it is enjoyed. What is this? What they have gained? In this way, the privileged . . . is it not subject perception? What Napoleon has done? Or Hitler has done? Or Churchill has done?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What about nationalism here in India?

Prabhupāda: They are imitating. What Gandhi has done? These things are cheating, spoiled. Then they have now a slogan to drive away poverty. Vivekananda imitated, daridra-nārāyaṇa-sevā. That Vivekananda started his mission in India hundred years ago. Why there are so many daridras lying on the street at night? Hmm? Everywhere. Here you can say: "India is poverty-stricken." That is your imagination. Accepting that, those who are materially opulent, why they are also, they're lying on the street? What is the answer? Why in Bowery Street they are lying on the street? Why in the Bedford Park the English boys are lying on street?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I don't know . . . (indistinct) . . . one verse can be quoted that because of one's connection with the modes of material nature . . .

Prabhupāda: Amsterdam, who they are, lying on the street in center of Europe? What have they done about these poor? On the other hand, the poor have learned how to utilize unrestricted sex and indulge in gambling and intoxication.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: For example, in America we find that the less intelligent persons are engaging in illicit sex life, so naturally they have more children, and they're eating meat, so the children are very . . .

Prabhupāda: And female . . . and women, girls.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: As the man becomes unrestricted in sex life, he has no potency. Either he becomes impotent or he can bring out some girls. We see practically from our association. Mostly they are begetting girls.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: From our what, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Our association.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Our society.

Prabhupāda: Those who are married society. These boys are begetting mostly girl, because they have lost their potency.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I know most of our Life Members, because they're a little bit regulated, mostly sons—three sons, one daughter; four sons, one daughter. It's very common.

Prabhupāda: Yes. If not equal quality quantity.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: At least.

Prabhupāda: So we have to touch all these. Then poverty . . . and "Drive away poverty. Give them more money." More money means cheating. You are employing; I am employed. Begins from government. More money and printing, they are coming. If I have got power to print paper and distribute it as money, you are dissatisfied getting hundred rupees, you want two hundred, so what is to me? I print and give you. This is artificial inflation.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: More money means printing more bills.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, but you haven't increased the . . .

Prabhupāda: And your enemy country, they're actually happy. They print exactly money like you. They come and purchase goods and give you fortune, anybody. I know it. Then what is the difficulty? Suppose this American dollar, is it very difficult to print it? So the Chinese, they are America's enemy, they can print, bring millions of dollars and purchase from your country and export to his country and give you some paper. You are . . . what you can do?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, we can only hope that we'll catch them. We hope that we'll catch them.

Prabhupāda: That is another thing, "when we catch." Who will catch? "Bell the cat." It is going on. I know. During wartime, one Chinese man was coming from China, and one business friend, he was appointed his purchasing agent. He was giving a list of goods to purchase. And this man, whatever money he'll charge, he'll immediately—Indian currency. He'll not say: "Why so much money?" No. Then he will pack up the goods, and through some channel he'll dispatch it. That is also through our way, not in the . . . the China is on the border. There also, if you pay money, smuggler's rate . . . they try to do.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That seems to be a big issue now, these smugglers. I notice in the newspapers every day.

Prabhupāda: The smugglers get with money, printed money. Who can check it?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So printed money should have gold behind it.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the theory. What is the rate of economy?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What is the idea . . .

Prabhupāda: That is called . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Gold standard.

Prabhupāda: Not gold standard, but there is a technical name. That means if you print notes, currency note, immediately you have to keep stock of gold in the reserve bank. Reserve. Therefore it is called . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The gold reserves.

Prabhupāda: Gold reserve. Gold reserve, yes. At least forty percent.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What's the idea behind that?

Prabhupāda: What is that? The idea is cheating. The cheating business begins from the government." And why people will not learn to cheat? This is cheating. I am giving you one paper, one hundred rupees, dollars, and you are happy, "I have got so many . . ." I am giving you cheque, ten thousand dollars: you got ten thousand dollars. Now I give you a paper. But it is going on. We have made machinery in such a way that it will go on in hundred rupees or ten thousand rupees. Just like this fixed deposit. I am giving actual money; they are giving a receipt. And it will increase. What increase? The same paper. And gradually inflation is going on. They'll pay at the inflation rate.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, they say they're paying at the investment rate.

Prabhupāda: That is, mean, their plea. Really, today . . . just like in our childhood my father had three hundred rupees, and that three hundred rupees is now ten thousand. So if my father would have deposited three hundred rupees at that time, automatically he has become ten thousand. So if you pay me instead of three hundred, say, six hundred or eight hundred, what is your loss? It has already become ten thousand.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, it's practical also, because supposing I have a cow . . .

Prabhupāda: But it may be . . . this cheating is going on.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But is it . . . what I'm asking is this: Supposing you have a cow, and you give to me a cow, so from that cow that I get from you . . .

Prabhupāda: That I understand, that in twenty years you get another . . . same money. That is another. But another side is the money is gradually losing its purchasing value.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's a fact. That's a fact.

Prabhupāda: My father, with three hundred rupees he was . . . what he was doing? If you want to do that thing now, you'll require ten thousand.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That means some cheating is going on.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Government, through the government.

Prabhupāda: Somewhere or other. Things are there. The rice are there, the dāl is there, the cloth is there, but what he purchased at three hundred rupees, now you have to pay ten thousand.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That means they've introduced more and more notes without any gold in their banks. Very dangerous.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Cheating. That's cheating.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What is the implication of this cheating? What are the ramifications, the results?

Prabhupāda: Result is that as we say always, that conditioned soul has a tendency to cheat. So they are utilizing this conditional qualification.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: With which result?

Prabhupāda: Result is nothing. Therefore we say it is dogs' race, imagination that, "We are becoming happy." He's becoming implicated in karma, cheating karma, and losing the opportunity of human life. Instead of applying his energy and intelligence how to become Kṛṣṇa conscious and get out of this, he is becoming expert in cheating and suffering. Then you become mouse. Unless you cheat, you cannot eat even.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So the leaders of government, they are encouraging like that. Instead of encouraging honesty and work according to the varṇas, cātur-varṇyam, they are doing like this to become . . .

Prabhupāda: There is no honesty all over the world. It is forgotten. "These are primitive," they say. "Now, the honesty, to become pious, to become religious, these are simply primitive idea." We have to open this. That will be a specific subject matter of that . . . but we have to write very nicely. Everything is based on tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13).

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The rascals also argue that . . . the materialists argue that we're being cheated.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The materialists' argument is that we are being cheated by being promised something imaginary.

Prabhupāda: We are not discussing that. But you are cheating—that is practical. You are cheating. Your government is cheating, giving a piece of paper, cheating me that "You get hundred rupees."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And they're cheating in so many . . . just like they were paying ninety rupees for a vasectomy. To make someone impotent, to make them sterile, they're giving ninety rupees. They're saying: "This ninety rupees is worth . . . it's worth it to become sterile if you take this ninety rupees."

Prabhupāda: That is paper.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Now, that's cheating. A man can produce a son. A son has got real value in so many ways, but instead they'll give him that paper worth . . .

Prabhupāda: Cheated with ninety rupees, and he's no more . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Just like the foreigners bought the island of Manhattan for twenty-four dollars from the Indians, the native Indians in New York. Twenty-four dollars' worth of trinkets. And they purchased.

Prabhupāda: No, the land was there. Just like Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura purchased Māyāpur at eight annas a bighā.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Now . . .

Prabhupāda: Two thousand rupees.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And they want five thousand. Same land.

Prabhupāda: Land value has increased.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, they say that land, buying land, is better investment than putting your money in the bank, so much increasing.

Prabhupāda: And they'll not allow. Rather, I cannot purchase land instead of keeping in the bank. They will not allow.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, they won't.

Prabhupāda: You can purchase, at most, sixty bighās. That's all.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right. Individually. But what about the cheating going on, big cheating, international cheating about the space flights?

Prabhupāda: Everything is cheating, because so long you are a conditioned soul, out of four defects, one of the defects is cheating propensity, kāraṇa pāṭava, er, vipralipsā. That is a qualification. And in this material world, the more you are expert cheater, you are considered very able man. All over the world, so many expert cheaters are going on.

Devotee: Are these people consciously cheating or raised in cheating so that they don't know the difference?

Prabhupāda: That is another thing, but they are cheating. That is a fact. How we have learnt it, that is another thing. But you are cheating. That's fact.

Devotee: Just like this President Carter, though, he's supposed to be a religious man and bringing so-called honesty into government, compared to the others.

Prabhupāda: That everyone says.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And this, these space flight cheatings, this is for the purpose of giving a few men more tax money or fame. That's another reason for cheating—to get fame.

Prabhupāda: I have got tendency to cheat, so people unnecessarily poses himself as very big man even by ideas that you will consider him very great man, although I am nothing. So many gurus, they are doing that. Our business is that we want to speak what Kṛṣṇa has said. If Kṛṣṇa has cheated, then we are cheater. Otherwise honest. If Kṛṣṇa is honest, we are honest. If Kṛṣṇa is cheater, so our position is safe. Yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128). Other gurus, they are manufacturing how to cheat. That is the difference. We are not speaking anything new. So if Kṛṣṇa has originally cheated you, then I am cheater.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's a . . . a big cheating is going on in the form of speculating. Just like the . . . all of the teachers, professors . . . I was reading Satsvarūpa's book. Satsvarūpa was presenting that there's three ways of acquiring knowledge, you know. First way is by sense perception. But that's cheating, because . . .

Prabhupāda: Hmm, pratyakṣa, parokṣa aitihya.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The senses cheat us because they're imperfect.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One thing looks like the wrong thing.

Prabhupāda: (aside) Call Gopīnātha.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But he points out that the final method, which is to hear from one who actually knows, that is the best way.

Prabhupāda: That is our . . . and who knows better than Kṛṣṇa? That's all. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Satsvarūpa gives the example, Shakespeare is the expert on Shakespeare; Kṛṣṇa is the expert on Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: That is good. Very nice.

Devotee: He's coming, Prabhupāda. He was just in the shower.

Prabhupāda: So we have to discuss very thoroughly all these subject matter.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Another form of cheating is done by man and women for sex life. Just like a woman cheats by putting on all this makeup with the idea that, "I will attract someone for my sense pleasure." And the man promises so many things, "I will take care of you. I will do this. I will do that."

Prabhupāda: Well, first of all, if you accept that you have got the cheating propensity, then all other things must come.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right. So many things, everything. Yeah, practically this whole civilization now is a cheating civilization.

Prabhupāda: Whatever name you can give, it is not civilization. That we have to . . . not that "How they are cheating." But it is not human civilization; it is animal. Just as animals cheat naturally. Animal fight. So we have to prove this is animal civilization. (aside) My isabgol? This is not human civilization. Without Kṛṣṇa consciousness it is not human civilization. That we have to prove. How it is not? You have to prove that, "This is animal civili . . . this is not human civili . . ." Real human business is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's para-upakāra. In ignorance they are doing all nonsense. Stop them. Give them knowledge. This is real civilization. That we have to prove. It is clearly stated in . . . na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). Anyone who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious—duṣkṛtina, simply cheating. And therefore narādhama, lowest of the mankind. And human life he's spoiling by cheating like animal. Who cheats? The man who doesn't care for the authority. He cheats. And if a man is afraid of law and government, he does not cheat. So godless person means cheater.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So fear is a principle of control which . . .

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, certainly.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But the higher principle would be love. That's our . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. O jokhon phal debe na . . . (When you serve me those fruits . . .) Breakfast. Tar shonge ektu isabgol debe. (Give me some isabgol with that.)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What does this isabgol do?

Prabhupāda: The dysentery tendency can be stopped.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The problem nowadays is that although the controlling agencies, the police force, they are supposed . . .

Prabhupāda: They are cheater.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They themselves are cheaters.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Cheater. The government is cheater, the government men, they should be honest?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Therefore how can the citizens be honest?

Prabhupāda: Why Indira Gandhi is condemned? She was cheating.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Nixon too.

Prabhupāda: Everyone. And what is guarantee they will not do it, this present government?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So force in this age is finished as a means for influencing honesty. Force will not work, because the leaders are dishonest. Then we have to teach the principle of love.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu didn't kill. He did not kill Jagāi and Mādhāi. 'Cause Kṛṣṇa killed, but in this age that principle's of love . . .

Prabhupāda: And if you kill, then wholesale will be killed. No . . . there will be no candidate for learning. You have to kill everyone. That will be done at the end, Kalki avatāra, simply killing, bās, finish. They'll have no capacity to understand. Nowadays there are . . . they cannot understand this philosophy. But there are some, they are trying to understand. But at the end of Kali-yuga there will be no brain to understand or to hear all these things. Mleccha. That is mleccha. Mleccha means they are so unclean, unstandardized, they have no brain. That is Europe, America. That's mleccha. Kill animals; eat. Mleccha, they are, according to Vedic; untouchable. If you touch, then you'll infect.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Of course, Śrīla Prabhupāda, but you did not become infected by our association.

Prabhupāda: But the danger is there. Danger is there.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Therefore traditionally the sādhus will not go outside India. They won't cross the ocean.

Prabhupāda: And I took the risk. I told you the story, that I was keeping my foodstuff in the same freezer where dog's flesh is there. What can I do? Circumstance. Therefore this rascal, Ginsberg, he used to say: "Swāmījī, you are very conservative." And "You do not know what is conservative. I'm so lenient. You do not know what is the meaning of conservative," I used to reply him. If I was conservative, then for a single moment I could not stay here. Immediately I would have gone.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But with yourself you were very conservative. With others you were very lenient, but in your own personal . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no, strictly I am not doing, because I am keeping my foodstuff in the same refrigerator where there is leftover and meat and dog's food is kept. (end)