730826 - Conversation - London

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His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada



730826R2.LON - August 26, 1973 - 82:11 Minutes



(eating prasādam)

Prabhupāda: A class of men who can understand God, that is missing at the present moment. The first-class man who can understand God, that is missing. That means head is missing. Head is missing. If the head is..., brain is cracked, then in spite of having the hands and legs and belly, the situation becomes confused.

So at the present moment the first-class men who can understand God, who can speak about God, the science of God, that is missing, as well as the arm, real kṣatriya, who can give protection. Here also people are taking part in politics. That is the same aim: "How can I get some money?" That's all. The whole, whole thing is śūdra. Śūdra's business is, do something and get money. That's all. Finished. That is śūdra's business.

Guest: What do you think has gone wrong with the supposedly intelligent people who should be concerned with God's business but are not? Why have they lost it?

Prabhupāda: Where is the intelligent people? They do not understand even what is virtue and sin. They do not understand. So where is the intelligent person? They are thinking everything is all right, but the nature does not say so. Nature says, "This is good for you. This is bad for you," but they do not know it. Where is Paṇḍita Mahāśaya (Pradyumna)? Call him.

Devotee: He is in London.

Prabhupāda: Oh. Who can read Bhagavad-gītā? Find out the verse pravṛttiṁ ca nivṛttiṁ ca janā na vidur āsurāḥ janā (BG 16.7).

Guest: (eating) This is very good.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Pravṛtti. P-r-a-v-r-i-t-t-i. In the Sixteenth Chapter.

Devotee:

pravṛttiṁ ca nivṛttiṁ ca
janā na vidur āsurāḥ
na śaucaṁ nāpi cācāro
na satyaṁ teṣu vidyate
(BG 16.7)

Translation: "Those who are demonic do not know what is to be done and what is not to be done. Neither cleanliness nor proper behavior nor truth is found in them."

Prabhupāda: They do not know what is to be done and what is not to be done. Next?

Devotee: "Neither cleanliness nor proper behavior..."

Prabhupāda: No cleanliness, no proper behavior.

Devotee: "...nor truth is found in them."

Prabhupāda: This is the general division, fourth-class, fifth-class men—demonic. Then?

Devotee: Purport?

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Devotee: "In every civilized human society there is some set of scriptural rules and regulations which are followed from the beginning, especially among the Āryans, those who adopt the Vedic civilization and who are known as the most advanced civilized peoples."

Prabhupāda: In the civilized men, there is such thing: do and do not. Even in ordinary dealing: "Keep to the right" or "Keep to the left," that means the other side you do not go, ordinary. So why there must be discipline, law and order? There must be these two things: do this; do not do this. Otherwise it is not civilized. Now in the Christian Bible, Lord Jesus Christ says, "Thou shall not kill." But they are killing, giving some plea. Straight thing is, the order is, "Thou shall not kill." But they are killing in spite of. In ordinarily, one does not know whether killing is good or bad. But even there is instruction—"Don't kill"—they do it.

Guest: Some of them do not.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Guest: There are some who do not, still.

Prabhupāda: Some there must be.

Guest: But not many.

Prabhupāda: But general people, they do not know even what is the wrong by killing. This is fourth-class, fifth-class men. They do not know what is the reaction of killing.

Guest: Reaction?

Prabhupāda: Yes. There must be reaction, because by nature's law... Just like you are living, I am living, or you are eating, I am also eating. So both of us have got the right to live, so how can I kill you?

Guest: You could... Sometimes people kill each other not because they want to kill, though; because there are some other reasons.

Prabhupāda: Then it is ignorance. You must know why you are killing. You cannot kill.

Guest: But essentially, if one person is killing some others, then it's occasionally felt to be justified, to kill the person who's doing the killing. Or to overthrow a tyrant or something.

Prabhupāda: If there is justification, then that is another thing.

Guest: Well, everybody feels that killing is justified. Very few people kill wantonly. They will always give a reason for it, especially in war.

Prabhupāda: They must give good reason. Simply I want to kill, therefore I must kill, that is not very good reason.

Guest: No. But people don't usually say like that.

Prabhupāda: They give this reason, that "I want to eat, so I must kill." That is tiger's reasoning. Tiger says... Tiger, by nature he has to kill, so there is no wrong for..., nothing wrong on his part if he kills, because by nature he is made. But why a man should kill unless the other party is wronged, aggressor, he is coming to kill you? We cannot kill even the tiger. But if the tiger comes in the city and creates disruption, you must kill. But there is no business going to the forest and killing. Why? He is living in his jurisdiction; why shall I encroach upon his jurisdiction? But people go in the forest and kill so many birds and animals unnecessarily.

Guest: Yeah, well... Yeah. This is quite true.

Prabhupāda: This is going on. Therefore, as it is stated, that they do not know what is right and what is wrong. This is the modern civilization.

Guest: But who does know?

Prabhupāda: We know. We know.

Guest: Yeah? You're sure?

Prabhupāda: That is our special qualification. And we are teaching this philosophy to our students. This is the special contribution of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. We know what is what.

Guest: Hmm.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore we are inviting persons to know this art, how to distinguish what to do and what not to do. This is our business.

Guest: How do you find out?

Prabhupāda: Here is the book. Here is the book.

Guest: That is the book? Bhagavad-gītā?

Prabhupāda: Bhagavad-gītā. Yes. Everything is there.

Guest: This seems to be a different version. I have read a very small one many years ago, but this seems to be rather large.

Prabhupāda: No. That is you might have seen only the original verses. Here there is explanation.

Devotee: The original verses are here. And there is full purport.

Guest: I see. Yeah. I once, in fact, was at a course on the Gītā. I went to a course on it. But that was many years ago, when I was very young, so I have forgotten now. I used to be in the Theosophical Movement, which has some relation..., some related ideas, because its origin is in Indian philosophy. So I know little about the Gītā, but.

Prabhupāda: Go on reading.

Devotee: "Those who do not follow the scriptural injunctions are supposed to be demons. Therefore it is stated here that the demons do not know the scriptural rules, nor do they have any inclination to follow them. Most of them do not know them, and even if some of them know, they have not the tendency to follow them."

Prabhupāda: Yes. These are demons. If you are professing some religion, and the religion says that "You do not do this," if you act against the scripture, then you are demon. Just like if one does not act according to the law of the state, he is outlaw. But these things are not taken very seriously at the present moment.

Guest: That's true.

Prabhupāda: They take it, "Oh, they are saying so many things. It doesn't matter. Let us enjoy life." This is demon. And therefore you find all over the world so much confusion, because the number of demons have increased.

Guest: What do you think people who are not in the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement should do? Should they join the movement, or is there a specialization so that there are some people who do what you are doing...?

Prabhupāda: No. Everyone should join. Everyone should join. Everyone should join. What do you understand by "Kṛṣṇa consciousness"? What is your idea?

Guest: I don't know. I've come to find out.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa consciousness means God conscious. Kṛṣṇa means God. So if one is not God conscious, he must be a demon.

Guest: Hmm. But there are... The trouble is, the phrase is too vague. So there are thousands of groups having the same sort of phrase, you see, talking about God consciousness, "You must have God consciousness."

Prabhupāda: Then you have to see... Just like you go to purchase something in the market. There are thousands of varieties, but the intelligent man can pick up the nice one.

Guest: You think there is just one nice one?

Prabhupāda: Yes. God is one, therefore God consciousness must be one. Do you think God..., there are many Gods?

Guest: God has many forms. God has many forms.

Prabhupāda: That is another thing. Just like you are Mr. Such-and-such. You may dress in a different way, but in whichever way you dress, you are Mr. Such-and-such. Similarly, God may have many forms. We also admit that. But God is one. God cannot be many. That is stated in the Vedic literature: advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam (Bs. 5.33). Ananta-rūpam. God can expand. We are also expansion of God. We living entities, we are also expansion of God. The tree is also expansion of God. The germ is also expansion of God. So everything is expansion of God. That is pure understanding of God. But who is understanding in that way?

They are seeing differently: "Oh, here is a man, here is a dog, here is a cat, here is a tree." Who is seeing that everyone is expansion of God? And if I think that everyone is expansion of God, then if I want to kill you, I must take sanction from God. It is a great science. People are neglecting it. They are not interested. Whenever we speak of God, they think, "They are talking something utopian." God is there; kingdom of God is there; one can go there; how one can be qualified—these things they are not interested at all. Therefore they are fourth-class, fifth-class men. So how you can be peaceful with fourth-class, fifth-class men?

Guest: Can people change themselves from being fourth class to third class and so on?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest: Can people change themselves?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. That is the Kṛṣṇa conscious movement. We can train from the tenth-class men to the first-class men. This is Kṛṣṇa conscious. What to speak of fourth class, fifth class—any lowest class, ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ (BG 9.32)

(aside:) Find out this verse: māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya...

Somebody must be quick. Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ. Māṁ, m-a-m. Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya.

Śrutakīrti: Māṁ hi pārtha...?

Prabhupāda: Vyapāśritya.

Śrutakīrti: ...vyapāśritya. Read?

...ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ
striyo vaiśyās tathāśūdrās
te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim
(BG 9.32)

"O son of Pṛthā, those who take shelter in Me, though they be of lower birth—women, vaiśyas (merchants) as well as śūdras (workers)—can approach the supreme destination."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest: It said women as well?

Prabhupāda: Yes, women, because they are less intelligent.

Guest: Women?

Prabhupāda: Yes. You do not know that?

Guest: No. I didn't know that. No. Hmm. But I'm quite surprised to hear it.

Prabhupāda: But it doesn't matter. If one takes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he can be elevated. That is the...

(aside:) Read the purport.

Śrutakīrti: "It is clearly declared here by the Supreme Lord that in devotional service there is no distinction between the lower or higher classes of people. In the material conception of life there are such divisions, but for a person engaged in transcendental devotional service to the Lord there are not.

"Everyone is eligible for the supreme destination. In the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam (SB 2.4.18) it is stated that even the lowest, who are called caṇḍālas (dog-eaters), can be elevated by association with a pure devotee. Therefore devotional service and guidance of a pure devotee are so strong that there is no discrimination between the lower and higher classes of men; anyone can take to it. The most simple man taking center of the pure devotee can be purified by proper guidance.

According to the different modes of material nature, men are classified in the mode of goodness (brāhmaṇas), the mode of passion (kṣatriyas, or administrators), the mixed modes of passion and ignorance (vaiśyas, or merchants), and the mode of ignorance (śūdras, or workers). Those lower than them are called caṇḍālas, and they are born in sinful families. Generally, those who are born in sinful families are not accepted by the higher classes. But the process of devotional service and the pure devotee of the Supreme God are so strong that all the lower classes can attain the highest perfection of life. This is possible only when one takes shelter of Kṛṣṇa. One has to take shelter completely of Kṛṣṇa; then one can become much greater than great jñānīs and yogīs."

Prabhupāda: Materially there is such division, but when they take to the spiritual platform, there is no such distinction. They'll work on spiritual platform.

Guest: Should they... Can they do that in ordinary life, or do they have to join the institution like this?

Prabhupāda: Yes, any ordinary life, any ordinary life.

Guest: What is the function of the āśrama, then?

Prabhupāda: Āśrama means to teach. Sva-karmaṇā tam abhyarcya saṁsiddhiṁ labhate narā (BG 18.46). There is verse—sva-karmaṇā. S-v-a.

Śrutakīrti: Sva. S-v-a.

...yena sarvam idaṁ tatam
sva-karmaṇā tam abhyarcya
siddhiṁ vindati mānavaḥ
(BG 18.46)

"By worship of the Lord, who is the source of all beings and who is all-pervading, man can, in the performance of his own duty, attain perfection."

Prabhupāda: Simply he has to know how to do.

Guest: And it is very simple. Yes?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest: Yes. That's the story I've heard. Yes.

Prabhupāda: Therefore we can claim anyone from any position if he agrees to abide by our regulative principle. Then he can be. There is no difficulty. That is being happen, actually. All my students, ask them what was their previous life and what is the life now. They will explain. A healthy person recovered from disease, he can very well understand that "What I was in my diseased condition and what I am now." He doesn't require to take certificate from others. He can personally understand, "Yes. I was like this. Now I am like this." You can talk with any one of our student, boys and girls, they will convince you. Yes. They have been trained.

Guest: Hmm. I'm surprised that…

Prabhupāda: For example, in America government is using..., spending millions and millions of dollars how to check LSD, but the same LSD man, as soon as he comes to our camp, he gives up completely. This is practical.

Guest: Yes. I've heard that.

Prabhupāda: They'll hate to touch LSD, it is so perfect. So every thoughtful man, every philanthropist must study this philosophy very seriously and try to spread the all benefit activities for the human society.

Guest: Is it... But when you say it's very simple...

Prabhupāda: Very simple. Simpler than the simple.

Guest: It would change your life. But does it require very great visible change? I mean, do you have to change your life in the sense that you actually do different things? You say in the ordinary performance of your duty you can still attain the consciousness...

Prabhupāda: (aside) Just try to explain.

Dhanañjaya: Yes, well, you can go on being a student. You can go on being a householder. You can go on being a professional man. You can do all these prescribed duties, and still you can go on becoming Kṛṣṇa conscious.

Guest: But there are degrees of it. So it's simple, but yet…

Dhanañjaya: It's a practical application in daily life, day-to-day life.

Guest: But then does that take a long time or a lot of training?

Dhanañjaya: No. It doesn't take so much training.

Guest: Then what is the purpose of degrees of initiation? That's if it's just a one thing...

Dhanañjaya: That's something different. If you want to take seriously, then you can become initiated.

Guest: And what is the function of that?

Dhanañjaya: The function is that you accept the spiritual master as a bona fide representative as God, and then you take the rules and regulations very seriously, and you abide by these rules and regulations. There are rules and regulations in every āśrama, in every temple. Just like for instance if you decided you would like to stay here, so you..., it would be expected that you follow four basic rules: no meat-eating; no intoxication; no illicit sex life; and no idle sports, no gambling, no betting.

You see? And taking part in the day-to-day routine, like rising early, bathing, attending the services and helping to maintain the āśrama by working or by engaging in some particular duty that you would like to do—by writing. You can do this. If you have this vocation to write, then we supply you an office, we supply you with a typewriter, paper, and you can write so many nice articles about Kṛṣṇa. And therefore that... Dovetailing whatever you have experienced in the material world and whatever you have understood from the śāstra, from the scripture. You're benefiting yourself and you're benefiting your fellow men also.

Guest: So that..., that's the āśrama life. But even in the ordinary world, in a way which is what I'm interested in... I'm interested in the influence of Kṛṣṇa consciousness in the ordinary world, and how would it change people's relationships and how would it change...

Dhanañjaya: Well all we simply ask is to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, to spend a few minutes, sometime in the day—in the morning or in the evening—just to sit down and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and gradually take on these rules and regulations.

Prabhupāda: We actually say that chant Hare Kṛṣṇa always.

Guest: Why... How does that have such a strange effect?

Haṁsadūta: Why does it have such a strong effect, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa?

Dhanañjaya: "Strange."

Prabhupāda: Oh, that you can see.

Guest: Yes, I try to see. It is something very simple that one could do.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest: It is something very simple. And so then the world could be changed very nicely, and without any very complicated changes.

Haṁsadūta: For example, the best example and most practical example is, for instance, George Harrison, whom you must know. He has given this house for our propagating Kṛṣṇa consciousness. He himself is singing about Kṛṣṇa. So he is a singer. Before he was singing something; now he is singing something. So it's simply a change to Kṛṣṇa. The singing is there, the music is there, the record is there, the audience is there—simply the consciousness or the object of the song is Kṛṣṇa. Just like you are a scientist, so you use your knowledge to systematically present Kṛṣṇa.

Guest: But there is a difference between presenting an idea which is about Kṛṣṇa and ideas, and…

Prabhupāda: This is not an idea; it is a fact.

Guest: Yes. Well, some idea which is more complicated than just the word. I am surprised that just the chanting of the words will be so significant.

Haṁsadūta: Because the philosophy or the understanding is that this sound Kṛṣṇa, the sound of the name of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, there is no difference. This is the meaning of absolute. Absolute means there is no difference between the name, the thing, its quality. In this world your name…

Prabhupāda: In this physical world, from the sound everything has come. From the sound, the air has come. From air, the fire has come. From fire, water has come. From water, earth has come.

Guest: But the... But the puzzle is that by..., how the world could be made better, and people could be made to change by this simple procedure.

Prabhupāda: That you have to understand what is the aim of this world. Why such big cosmic creation is there? What is the purpose?

Guest: That is a very important question to ask.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They do not know that.

Guest: But you know it?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest: That's remarkable.

Prabhupāda: Yes. We know it. What is the purpose of this big creation, we know it. We know everything perfectly. That is our special qualification.

Guest: How do you think that there are so many other people that think they also know? How did they go wrong?

Prabhupāda: They are thinking part of, partially. They do not know the right way. Just like a train is going on. So in the middle of the station you get on a train. Now it moves. If you think this movement is began from here, that is wrong. The movement has begun wherefrom the train has started. That is right knowledge. But a child will think, "Now we have got the train, it is moving now." That is not perfect knowledge. The moving is fact, but the knowledge is not fact. So the modern so-called scientists, they capture something in the middle. They do not know where is the beginning, and they are simply theorizing. No perfect knowledge.

Guest: I can believe that very readily. It's not very difficult...

Prabhupāda: Yes. So they have no perfect knowledge, and still they are taking the place of a teacher. So others must be misled. If you have no perfect knowledge on a subject matter, and if you become a teacher of that subject matter, will you not mislead others? That is going on.

Guest: Hmm. Certainly.

Prabhupāda: They are taking big, big Nobel Prize by theorizing that life has begun from matter. Totally wrong, but they are getting Nobel Prize. Fool's paradise. You see?

śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ
saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ
(SB 2.3.19)

Animals—big animal. Suppose a lion roars. A small animal thinks, "Oh, he is big thing." He does not know that he is animal—nothing but animal. Is it not? (laughs) So this class of Nobel Prize winner just like a big animal praised by other small animals. That's all. Both of them are animals. Otherwise, how they can cheat people putting some wrong theory? But this is going on. He is getting Nobel Prize. Wherever he goes, he gets good audience. By stopping all nonsense we can understand that "Here is a fool. He is talking something intelligent." It was challenged. One some professor in California University—not he is from here; he came from outside—Nobel Prize winner. He…

Perhaps you may know. "Evolution of chemicals." He is theorizing this. So his lecture began that life has begun from these four chemicals. So in that university there is my disciple, who is also doctor in chemistry. So he challenged him, "Suppose if I give you these four chemicals, can you manufacture life?" He replied, "That I cannot say." What is this? (laughter) "Then why you are theorizing like this, nonsense?" This is going on. Just like Darwin's theory—he said that man has come from monkey, but not a single monkey up 'til now has produced any man, neither scientifically they can inject a monkey to produce another man. Still the theory is going on.

Guest: It could have taken a long time. It might have taken a long time to happen.

Prabhupāda: Why it should take? If it is actually fact, then it is no difficult thing to understand. But it is false theory.

Guest: You think that kind of evolution…

Prabhupāda: That is not evolution. Evolution is different. That we have got full knowledge. Evolution means just like I am now living in a house. It will belonged to some lord. What is this lord?

Devotee: Piggot.

Prabhupāda: Piggot. Lord Piggot. Now I am become lord. Piggot is gone. (laughter) Now it is Bhaktivedanta Manor. So not that I was in a small cottage, the cottage has evolved to become a big, palatial building. Not that. I have come from that cottage to this big house. That this nonsense Darwin does not know. Not elevation of the cottage to this big house. It is my personal elevation, that I was living in a cottage; now I have got the chance to live in a palatial house. I am concerned. But Darwin is thinking the cottage has evolved to become a big house. That is his nonsense.

Guest: You make it more silly than it really is. It's not quite as silly as that.

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Haṁsadūta: He says you are making it more silly than it actually is.

Prabhupāda: No.

Guest: Yes. You are making Darwin sound a fool. I mean, he might well be wrong, but… He had a better grasp of...

Prabhupāda: Then produce from a body of a monkey, you produce human being. Then you are correct. I don't say that I can turn this cottage into a big palace. I don't say. I am not so fool.

Guest: You could, but it would take you a long time.

Prabhupāda: No. No. No. It is not possible. Cottage is different, this house is different.

Guest: No. You can change... You can take a cottage and gradually add bits. You can put more bricks here. You can start to put windows in. That will take you a long, long time, but gradually it could change.

Prabhupāda: Why shall I do that? If the palace is already there, why shall I waste my time?

Guest: Why should you? But it's possible to do it.

Prabhupāda: No, why... It is not possible. Cottage is there. You break the cottage and make a palace. That is another thing.

Guest: But we can… For example, we can change dogs.

Prabhupāda: We can utilize the ingredients. Not that the cottage has developed into a cottage..., into a... It is not that. Matter does not develop in that way.

Guest: But we can do it ourselves. Your cows here, you see...

Prabhupāda: That we have challenged. You cannot do it.

Guest: Those cows. You have a brown cow, you have a black and white cow and you have a brown and white cow. Now all those cows came from a single kind of cow, which is the wild cow. And you can make those cows change, you see, to different kinds of cows—some which produce a lot of milk, and some which produce a lot of beef, and some which have big horns, and..., different colors. We can change animals in that way. You can see evolution happening on a small scale like that. So I think it's obviously possible that animals can change. I think you can see that.

Prabhupāda: I do not think it is possible that you can change a black cow to a white cow. I don't think.

Haṁsadūta: He is talking about breeding. He is talking about breeding.

Prabhupāda: That is another process. That is another process. Not that the same black cow has become a white cow. That is not possible.

Guest: That's not what Darwin claims—that a monkey becomes a man. He claims that it is a similar process to getting a pure-bred special cow from a wild cow, but it happens over many generations, as a change. And he would have supposed that that is the way people came, or humans came.

Prabhupāda: No, the point is whether the body of the monkey has changed into the body of human being.

Guest: I don't think that ever occurred. I am sure that doesn't occur. (laughs) I don't think it could.

Prabhupāda: But Darwin's theory is like that. He is pointing out that this body has changed into this body.

Dhanañjaya: He says it has evolved from a monkey's form, with a tail, to a human being's form. But this is not according to this knowledge of Vedas.

Guest: Well, you seem to be attributing the wrong theory to Darwin, that...

Prabhupāda: No, we have got our own theory.

Guest: ...because he supposed that a monkey will change into a man, but in the same way as you can breed dogs, and things like that. You can obviously change their form. That happens occasionally even in nature, from some special ways that…

Haṁsadūta: Yes. But a human being and a monkey... Just like a cow and a horse. You will never get a horse from a cow, no matter how you breed them.

Guest: Well horse and cow, it's possible over many..., a long time you can keep doing that.

Haṁsadūta: No.

Guest: The horse and cow had a common ancestor.

Haṁsadūta: No. You must do it.

Prabhupāda: One thing is, even accepting his theory…

Guest: Well, I'm not defending it; I'm just saying.

Prabhupāda: ...even mixed breeding you can change to another species, accepting this, but that you have to mix. But in nature's way there are so many species of life. How it has happened?

Guest: According to Darwin's theory, by that very process, by animals just constantly evolving over millions of years and changing.

Prabhupāda: But you say, your analogy, that you said that if we mix—you mix. But who is mixing?

Guest: Ah, well that is—nature does that. Natural selection.

Prabhupāda: If you analyze, make analogy, you must bring all the similar points. Otherwise it is defective. Here you bring a species of dog, another dog and mix them—you are the worker.

Guest: Oh, yes. That's true. That's true.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So who is the worker?

Guest: Well, according to Darwin's theory, it's nature. It's nature. It's very simple, you see, because…

Prabhupāda: Nature... You say nature. Nature is there. Just like this table, it has got these iron rod, it does not change into iron flute automatically. You cannot say that. If I am a man, I take this iron rod and make it a iron flute; I can do it. But it does not make iron flute automatically. That analogy will not do.

Guest: Well, in living things they do move around and nature has a great deal…

Prabhupāda: Living… This is a dead thing—iron rod, iron pipe, but I am a living being. I can change this iron pipe into iron flute. The iron pipe does not automatically becomes iron (flute). Darwin says they automatically it is become.

Guest: Well, with living things it is different.

Prabhupāda: (to devotee:) Just make him understand.

Haṁsadūta: The point is that…

Guest: I can see what he is saying.

Haṁsadūta: ...whatever it is—animal or any species of life—it appears to change, but actually someone is changing it. It is not changing…

Guest: Yes. It's possible. I agree.

Haṁsadūta: You understand?

Guest: Yes. It's certainly possible that there is a force outside which is making things change.

Prabhupāda: That he does not know.

Haṁsadūta: That is the defect in Darwin's theory. Darwin is putting forward that the matter is changing independently of any worker, of any other force.

Prabhupāda: Therefore I say that is foolishness.

Guest: Yes. I agree. You could still have evolution, but it could be directed by an outside force.

Haṁsadūta: Yes. There is evolution, but it is spiritual, not material. In other words, the monkey body's not changing to the human form, but actually the soul…, eh, what…

Prabhupāda: He is transmigrating...

Haṁsadūta: Transmigrates.

Prabhupāda: ...from this body to another body.

Guest: Oh, I see. But how did the bodies start to come about in the first place? I mean, they were just created, huh, in the first place? How did human bodies arise?

Prabhupāda: You have no experience?

Guest: Oh, yes. (laughs) But…

Prabhupāda: How your body is created?

Guest: Yeah. But in the very beginning? Well, that was some...

Prabhupāda: At the very beginning, yes. Very beginning we accept God. God is therefore called the original father. Is there any wrong?

Guest: No. That's splendid. That's a good story. Yes. Very good story.

Prabhupāda: Just like I have got my father. So it is a fact, my father has got a father. He has got father, he has got father, and come up to the original father. Who has no father, but He is original father, that is God. But you have to accept it that there is somebody, living entity, who is the original father. That you have to accept.

Guest: But that doesn'tseem to make any difference to the way one behaves in the world. See, in your practice of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, as you have—the practice and the (indistinct)—there seem to be two parts. There is one part which is about how to behave. And there is another part which is how the world is or how the universe is, or how things came to be.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest: And it seems to me that these two are not necessarily to be connected. I see for you it is very important that they are, but it seems to make no difference to me whether evolution exists or not, or whether..., how human beings started. That seems to make no difference at all. What seems to matter is how to live and how to behave and how to behave towards each other. Things like that. I can understand that it is a good thing to be a vegetarian, for example, you see, not to gamble…

Prabhupāda: The thing is, to behave, if I do not know what is the ultimate goal of life, then where is the question of behavior?

Guest: I can see that the ultimate goal of life is very important, but what about the history? That doesn't seem to be important, or the theory of how evolution occurs, for example.

Prabhupāda: History, history can give you the statement of a few years, but creation is not like that. It is eternal. It is eternal. So you cannot give eternal evidences by your historical method. That is not possible.

Revatīnandana: What he's saying is that one way or another, history..., regardless of what the history was, it's an irrelevant subject. History does not seem a relevant subject—whether we evolved or whether we were created does not seem important to him, but how we behave seems important to him.

Prabhupāda: The thing is that he is also created. How he can say he can remain aloof from creation? He is created by father and mother. How you can neglect this process of creation? As soon as you accept that you are also created being, then the intelligent person asks, "What is the origin of creation?" That is next. If you are not interested in the origin of creation, then you are not in perfect knowledge.

Guest: Why do you need perfect knowledge?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Perfect knowledge to become perfect.

Guest: No, I am puzzled about how that would influence. You see, you have a set of metaphysical theories, and some of them seem to be relevant to behavior. In other words, they will change your behavior. They would change the way you treat other people. And that's very important. But there are other theories which you have which don't seem to make any difference to life. They are just theories.

Prabhupāda: What do you mean by behavior?

Guest: Well, if you have a theory, for example, about how all things are part of God, so if you kill something then you are killing part of God—and that is obviously a bad thing. Now I can understand how that theory has a relevance to behavior. It explains why you mustn't kill things. But there are all sorts of other parts of the theory, the theories that you have, which seem to have no bearing; it doesn't really matter. I mean the nature of God, for example, it doesn't seem to make much difference.

Prabhupāda: First of all, thing is that what is the purpose of proposing some theory of knowledge? What is the purpose? Just like somebody is putting a theory of knowledge—take Darwin: he had no necessity to put forward this theory of evolution. Why? Why he takes so much trouble, and why people are taking interest in his theory? What is the idea behind it? There is no need of. Suppose one does not know the Darwin's theory. He is not suffering. There are so many hundreds and thousands of men, they do not care to know, but they are also living. Cats and dogs, they are also living. The first thing is where is the necessity of become a man of knowledge?

Guest: I don't think it's necessary, but it seems..., some people like it.

Prabhupāda: Then it is something sporting?

Guest: Sporting?

Prabhupāda: Yes. I can give some knowledge as my sporting, as my whims. Is that the aim of knowledge?

Guest: For some people it is. Some people just like it.

Prabhupāda: Some people... If you bring some people, then some people rascal, some people very nice, then it is very difficult. We have to generalize. Do you think that knowledge is equal for some people and not for all?

Guest: Sorry, I don't understand.

Prabhupāda: Do you think that a man should be man of knowledge only for himself and not for others?

Guest: I think there are different kinds of knowledge. Some knowledge everybody should have, and some knowledge is... Not everybody can know everything.

Prabhupāda: My point is, what is the purpose of acquiring knowledge?

Guest: It varies. It varies. Sometimes it's to know how to live…

Prabhupāda: It may vary. Just like we are eating. You are eating something, I am eating something, but eating is necessary. You cannot say that eating is not necessary. So you may be interested in a particular type of knowledge; I may be interested. But whether knowledge is essential for us or not?

Guest: Some knowledge is essential.

Prabhupāda: Anyway, some knowledge is also knowledge. That you cannot deny. So knowledge is essential. You have to accept. Then what is the ultimate goal of essential knowledge? That comes. Suppose I am the whole thing. Somebody is studying my hand. This is also knowledge. Somebody is studying my leg. So there are different parts of my body, but what is the ultimate goal of such knowledge: that he must know whose hand, whose leg, whose head. And that is essential knowledge. Knowledge is essential. Somebody is simply partially studying a part of that essential knowledge, but the aim should be how to come to that complete knowledge, which is called absolute knowledge.

Guest: I can see that. Yes, I can see that's true. Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest: Yes. How to come to that knowledge. But there seem to me to be many routes to that knowledge, and you seem to deny that. That puzzles me.

Prabhupāda: Many groups may be, but we have to know which is right. That is my business. When I want to purchase something, many sellers will come. Everyone will say, "Here is sir. Very nice." So it depends on me how to select the nicest. That depends on me, on my intelligence.

Guest: It's not just a matter of intelligence, it seems, because...

Prabhupāda: No, it is matter of intelligence. Just like when you go to purchase something from the store, the storekeeper will give you varieties of gold, and you have to select, "Yes, it is right."

Guest: Yeah, but there are... You see, in the case of going to a stall, they have a lot of things. There is not necessarily one single thing which is the best one, because you might go there... Some people, just like you are choosing pears, you see: some people may like soft pears, and some people may like hard pears, some people might like brown pears and others like yellow pears. There is no best pear. There are particular ones. There are obviously bad pears and good pears, but of many different kinds, and you pick the one that you like. It depends on, to some extent, what you are looking for. And then there will be many pears that are equally good.

Prabhupāda: If there is something that if you get that knowledge or you get that thing you can get all other things automatically, is it not intelligence to pick up that knowledge?

Guest: If it existed, yes. If it existed.

Prabhupāda: It exists. That is intelligence. Just like there is a tree in your house. So the tree has got so many branches, twigs, leaves, flowers, fruits. So if you..., if somebody says, "No, I like to pour water on the fruit," if somebody says, "No, I like to pour onto the leaves," and somebody says twigs... This is different. But if somebody knows to water everything at a time, who is intelligent?

Guest: Well, it depends... I don't know what the best thing to do is.

Prabhupāda: First of all you answer this.

Guest: It's not that the analogy is not…

Prabhupāda: Why not analogy? You have understand by analogy. You gave me analogy too. Without analogy, how we can make progress?

Guest: (laughs) Well, you see I would be in the position of somebody not knowing about trees, and I would see a lot of people, and they would all have a particular theory about how it is best to water a tree.

Prabhupāda: This is the way going on. The whole cosmic manifestation, that is described in the Bhagavad-gītā, viśva-rūpa. Just like I am a form. So I have got many parts—the fingers are there, the hairs are there, the nails are there. So many things. If you make analytical study the anatomy or physiology, you will get so many parts. Innumerable. So this body, somebody studies as psychologist. He is simply studying the brain. Somebody is physiologist. Somebody is a biologist. The same... Center is the body. Center is the body.

They have made so many departmental knowledge, but if there is any such process to know what is this body, then is it not possible to know everything? Yasmin vijñāte...That is the Vedic instruction: yasmin vijñāte sarvam evam vijñātaṁ bhavati (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.1.3). If you understand the Absolute Truth, then other, relative truths become automatically known. So those who are interested with the relative truth, they are intelligent? Or one who is interested in the Absolute Truth, he is intelligent?

Guest: Hmm. It just seems to be a particular problem to find one's way among lots of different groups that express themselves in exactly the way that you do. Because there are very many, and that's...

Prabhupāda: They are busy with the relative truth.

Guest: Yes, but they all say the Absolute Truth.

Prabhupāda: There is a process of knowing the Absolute Truth.

Guest: They will say that too.

Prabhupāda: So if you can understand the Absolute Truth, the relative truths become automatically known. This is Vedic injunction. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.1.3). By knowing the Absolute Truth... Just like, take another example, analogy. In the mathematics 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 0. So if you simply learn this, then you learn the whole mathematics, because whatever you write in mathematics is 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, in this way and that way, say plus, minus, division, but they are nothing but 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7... You simply make different angle of vision of studying, but the figures are the same—1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9.

Dhanañjaya: Everything else is simply a combination of…

Prabhupāda: That's right.

Guest: Yes. It's interesting. I can use that; I can explain that.

Prabhupāda: Similarly, we understand the Absolute Truth in this way in the Bhagavad-gītā.

(aside:) Just find out,

bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ
khaṁ mano buddhir eva ca
(BG 7.4)

Seventh Chapter. Bhūmi. B-h-u-m-i.

Devotee: Bhūmir āpo?

bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ
khaṁ mano buddhir eva ca
ahaṅkāra itīyaṁ me
bhinnā prakṛtir aṣṭadhā
(BG 7.4)

Prabhupāda: Bhinnā prakṛtir me aṣṭadhā. Yes.

Devotee: "Earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, intelligence and false ego—all together these eight comprise My separated material energies."

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is the whole composition of the whole material world, these eight elements: earth, water, fire, air, sky—this is gross; and mind, intelligence, ego—subtle. So the whole material..., whole cosmic manifestation is combination of these eight things. Just like the same analogy: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9.

Guest: Do you think that's the only way to describe them? Do you think there could not be another, I mean, indefinite number of equivalent ways to describe...

Prabhupāda: No, no. Whatever you can take. Suppose you are, what is called, soil expert. The soil expert means you are studying the earth, that's all. You may be interested in light and heat. So light and heat is fire. You are studying fire. You are studying electricity—you are studying fire. You are studying gas—it is combination of water and fire. So you cannot go out of these elements. You cannot go out of these elements. Whatever you may be expert in particular line, but you are bound up within these eight elements. That's all. If you are psychologist, that means intelligence or mind. That is stated. Mano buddhir ahaṅkāraḥ. So you cannot go outside.

So here Kṛṣṇa, or God, says, "These eight elements are My energy—separated energy." Separated energy means just like it is being recorded in the tape-recorder, but when it will be replayed, it will speak exactly like me—the same sound, same everything. But I am not that. That is my separated energy. This is the example of separated energy. Similarly, all these eight elements, they have come from the original source, God, and they are acting differently. So if I know God, I can know that these are different energies of God. That's all. Therefore my knowledge in God, if it is perfect, then I can understand perfectly all these material energies.

Guest: That's an example of what I was saying earlier—that it doesn't seem to be necessary to have that particular theory or way of describing the world to behave properly.

Prabhupāda: There is no necessity. Your real necessity is the Absolute, wherefrom these things have come. That is your real necessity.

Guest: ...and to understand the purpose of life. I think that's...

Prabhupāda: That is purpose of life, because that is the purpose of human life especially—not all. Cats and dogs, they cannot understand. A human being can understand. Therefore a human being's aim of life is to understand God.

Guest: Hmm. That's a very good angle, that.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And if he understands God, he understands everything. Just like we, we speak with so many scientists, psychologists, metaphysists and chemists. But we talk with them because we know the central point. Therefore we can detect what is the wrong in Darwin's theory.

Guest: Can you use it for anything? Can you use it to detect what's wrong in any theory?

Prabhupāda: Any theory. Any theory. Because we know the central point.

Guest: So you should be able to use it to predict things. You should be able to use it…

Prabhupāda: What is the use of prediction? Prediction... We can also predict. Predict... Just like I can predict, "You'll die." Is that prediction? (laughter) If I say, "You'll die," is that prediction? Everyone knows. Or if I say, "In the month of January there will be snowfall," is that prediction?

Guest: Well, you might have a warm January.

Prabhupāda: Yes, it is simply experience. And we can experience all the world(?). That is our point of view. You take the perfect knowledge from the perfect, everything is then perfect. We take knowledge that the soul is not destroyed after the destruction of the body. Well, that is a fact.

Guest: What happens to the soul after the death of the body?

Prabhupāda: You have to accept another body out of the so many varieties of body.

Guest: Immediately?

Prabhupāda: Yes, immediately. Immediately like this. The example is given, just like you are walking. So when you fix up your leg in right place, then you take up this leg. Not before that.

Guest: What happens when...

Prabhupāda: So... Sometimes a man remains in coma. That means what kind of life he'll have to accept, that is being judged by higher, superior authority. And as soon it is settled up, he leaves this body and takes another. That is transmigration of the soul. Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa (SB 3.31.1). Just like judgment is going on in the high court that what will be the next stage. So as the judgment is given, he must go to the prison and suffer so many days or so many months. Immediately he leaves this, goes there. That's all.

But these rascals, they do not believe that there is a judge and there is judgment, there is life after death, there is... Therefore I say they are rascals. I don't say whimsically. Because they are misleading, therefore they are rascals. So many human being they are misleading by false knowledge. How much disservice they are doing they do not know, by giving false knowledge, misleading people. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās (SB 3.31.1). A blind man is giving lead to thousands of blind men, what is the result? All of them will fall in a ditch. This is going on.

Therefore our policy is to accept perfect knowledge from the Supreme Perfect. That is perfect knowledge. Then we get knowledge, perfect knowledge, and then you become perfect. But a man is imperfect or perfect on account of knowledge. If one has got perfect knowledge, he is perfect. One who has got imperfect knowledge, he is imperfect. Because my existence as living entity, I am cognizant. I want knowledge. So if my knowledge is perfect, then I am perfect. And if my knowledge is imperfect, then I am imperfect. Just like they do not know that the soul is there and the soul is transmigrating from one body to another. They do not know.

Guest: How many people are there with perfect knowledge?

Prabhupāda: Anyone can become, provided he takes the perfect knowledge.

Guest: How long does that take?

Prabhupāda: It takes immediately. If you are really serious, it takes immediately. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says,

sarva-dharmān parityajya
mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja
ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo
mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucaḥ
(BG 18.66)

Kṛṣṇa said, God said, that "You simply surrender unto Me, I will give you protection from all imperfection." So how long it takes? A second. You simply surrender to Kṛṣṇa, and immediately your life, your perfect life, begins. Now if you keep yourself surrendered, then you..., on and on your life becomes perfect, perfect, perfect, more, more, more, more, more. Absolutely perfect.

teṣāṁ satata-yuktānāṁ
bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam
buddhi-yogaṁ dadāmi taṁ
yena mām upayānti te
(BG 10.10)

First of all you have to accept this principle; then you become..., immediately your perfection life begins.

śreyaḥ-kairava-candrikā-vitaraṇaṁ vidyā-vadhū-jīvanam
ānandāmbudhi-vardhanaṁ prati-padaṁ pūrṇāmṛtāsvādanaṁ
paraṁ vijayate śrī-kṛṣṇa-saṅkīrtanam
(CC Antya 20.12)

(aside:) He can explain this verse, ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanaṁ.

Revatīnandana: This is the first verse of the verses composed by Lord Caitanya, who began this movement; it is present from five hundred years ago. The Vedas say that He is a incarnation of Kṛṣṇa Himself. And the verse...

Guest: The Vedas five hundred years ago?

Revatīnandana: It's not predicted (indistinct) …said that He would be actually Kṛṣṇa Himself. So He didn't write, except a few selected verses. This is the first verse, and the translation is: "All glories to the śrī-kṛṣṇa-saṅkīrtanam, the chanting of the names of the Lord, because this chanting will cleanse the heart of all the dust that's accumulated there for years together. It is all the material conditioning that's been acquired from births and deaths. It is cleansed by the transcendental sound, and in this way the fire of conditional life, of repeated birth and death, is extinguished."

And the troubles with this material life, starting out with the cycle of birth and death, is likened to being in a blazing fire condition of existence. It says, "It is the life of all transcendental knowledge, this chanting." It brings it to life, the whole process. "It increases the ocean of transcendental bliss by bringing more and more souls into it, and it helps us also to have a taste of the full nectar for which we are always anxious." Everyone is always anxious to enjoy fully, but he does not experience full enjoyment, because he's not linked with the source, which is Kṛṣṇa. The chanting forms an immediate link. And, erm, "It helps us to have a taste of the full nectar, for which we are always anxious." This is the verse. So this...

Prabhupāda: Vidyā-vadhū-jīvanam—it is reservoir of knowledge, vidyā-vadhū-jīvanam; ānandāmbudhi-vardhanaṁ—increasing spiritual bliss. Then all perfectness. All these things can be achieved only by paraṁ vijayate śrī-kṛṣṇa-saṅkīrtanam. The process is very simple.

Guest: What would one do in order to… First of all you can just chant the name. That seems to be the thing. But then there were some..., a bit..., rules of behavior that one has to follow.

Prabhupāda: No, chanting of this mahā-mantra, Hare Kṛṣṇa, there is no rule. You can chant without following any rule. There is no such thing. You simply chant—Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare. That's all. God has given you the tongue, so you can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa without any difficulty, without any loss. Why don't you try it, if there is any gain?

Guest: Yes, I'll try it. Why not? Are there any particular times of the day when...

Prabhupāda: No. No. Anytime. Simply you try to chant always. (laughter)

Guest: Now what is the full chant?

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare.

(aside:) You can give in writing.

Guest: (indistinct comments by devotees) I think I can learn it.

Prabhupāda: These sixteen words: Hare, Kṛṣṇa, Hare, Kṛṣṇa, that's four, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare. Actually three words. They are adjusted in sixteen words.

Guest: What does Hare mean?

Prabhupāda: Hare, Hare means "O the energy of God." There are two things: God and His energy. Just like fire—fire itself and its energy. Is it not? Two things are there. Is it not? Fire itself and its energy, heat and light, whatever you call. So similarly, God we cannot see at the present moment because we are materially dull, blind. We cannot see God. Therefore common man cannot understand what is God. But he can see and feel His energy.

Just like the sun planet. It is not possible to go there, but you can feel the energy of the sun planet, the sunshine. Any common man can understand. But it is a fact that sunshine is not important; the sun is important, wherefrom the energy is coming. Is it not? Similarly, whatever we are seeing, that is already explained, bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ (BG 7.4), this material world, this is simply the energy of God. So Hare means "O the energy of God."

Guest: And Rāma?

Prabhupāda: And Rāma means God Himself. Because there are two things: God and His energy. No—three things. Actually there is one thing: only God. Without God there is no energy. Therefore He is Absolute. But for our experience we can understand God is there. We cannot see God, therefore we have to go through the energy. If you want to go to the sun planet you must go through the sunshine. Therefore we offer our prayers to the energy also. That is Hare—not only God, but His energy. Hare Kṛṣṇa means the Supreme, the all-attractive. We are also energy of God. So Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, so simply pray, "O the energy of God, O God, kindly accept me." That's all. Simple thing.

Guest: Yes. Simple, yes.

Prabhupāda: Just like a child cries, "Mother, take me, take me on your lap." The mother will take. You have to cry a little, that's all. (break) Mother wants to see, "How much the child is anxious for me." As soon as mother sees, "Oh, he is very much anxious. All right. Come on," she will give up all other business and take the son on the lap. Similarly, we have to become little eager. Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, yugāyitaṁ nimeṣeṇa (CC Antya 20.39), eagerness: "Oh, one moment is just like twelve years." Twelve years; yuga means twelve years. Yugāyitaṁ nimeṣeṇa cakṣuṣā prāvṛṣāyitam, that "Torrents of rain of my tears." Śūnyāyitaṁ jagat sarvaṁ, "I find everything vacant," govinda-viraheṇa me, "without Kṛṣṇa, without…" This is eagerness. When we become eager like that, God will reveal: "Yes, come on. Here I am." What is that? Simply He waits to see how much eager you are.

But our eagerness is attracted by this material energy, illusion. We are engaged in studying physics, chemistry and so many things, other things, politics, sociology and that logy, this logy, that logy, that's all. We are thinking we shall be happy being attracted by the different varieties of energy. Therefore we pray to the energy, "Don't put me into illusion." These are illusion. What you will do? Suppose you will become a great physist, even Professor Einstein, does it mean that you are free from death? Has the all the scientists discovered something, "Yes, I am the greatest scientist, Noble Prize winner. There will be no more death"? Where is that scientist, "There is no more disease"? We may manufacture million types of best medicine, but can you stop disease? "No, sir." So this is intelligence.

So what is the use of cultivating this knowledge? The real problem is there: birth, death, old age and disease. How to get out of this? They do not know. They are simply theorizing—this theory, that theory, that theory, that theory. What is the value of all these theories? You are compelled by nature (indistinct). As soon as nature comes, "Please get out from this platform," you have no theory. Finished, all your knowledge. They are not thinking of that. They are not thinking of that, that "What is the value of my theories?" Real problems are there. And that is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā: janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). This is real knowledge, that we are theorizing in so many ways, but we must always put forward before us, "Here is birth, here is death, here is old age and disease."

Guest: Do your theories help you to deal with those problems?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Then I shall be serious how to solve these problems. And that is also stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, that if you simply try to understand the Absolute Truth, Kṛṣṇa, then immediately you get out of the clutches of death. Get out of clutches of death means you get out of clutches of birth also. Because where there is birth, there is death. If there is no death, then there is no birth, and if there is no birth, there is no disease, there is no old age. So Bhagavad-gītā says that,

janma karma ca divyam me
jānāti tattvataḥ
tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma
naiti...
(BG 4.9)

Anyone who simply understands Kṛṣṇa and His activities, then he immediately becomes free from rebirth—tyaktvā dehaṁ. This body you have got. You have to give it up. But after giving up this body I am not transmigrating to another material body. I'm going directly to the spiritual world. Then there is no more birth, death, old age and disease, because as spirit soul we have no birth, death, old age and disease. It is the body, the material body. So there is no such knowledge throughout the whole world, universities. They are not busy for acquiring this knowledge.

(aside:) Where is Śyāmsundara?

Guest: You must excuse me. I have to go. I have to go home.

Prabhupāda: You have to go? Why?

Guest: My lady friend, she will expect me back about ten o'clock.

Prabhupāda: So your lady friend will give you protection from birth, death, old age and disease?

Guest: Well, maybe, maybe not. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: We can give you protection. Why don't you remain here?

Guest: Hmm. Well, I shall try it. By chanting I shall (indistinct). It's very interesting. Thank you very much for giving me so much of your time.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Thank you.

Guest: Bye-bye.

Prabhupāda: Please come again.

Guest: Yes we must. I think you've got something very nice going there.

Prabhupāda: Thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

(guest leaves) (break) (end)