720704 - Conversation with Bob Cohen - New York

Conversations by Date, 1972

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

720704R4-NEW YORK - July 04, 1972 - 52:24 Minutes

Prabhupāda: Śyāmasundara is transcribing your talks with me in Māyāpur.

Bob Cohen: I received your very kind letter about a week ago.

Prabhupāda: Now, you are very intelligent boy. You can try to understand this philosophy. It is very important. And try to preach. For sense gratification people are wasting so much time, but they do not . . . they're not responsible what is going to happen next life. But there is next life.

Foolish people, they are ignorant, but there is next life, and this life is preparation for next life. That they do not know. The modern education, universities, they're completely in darkness about this simple knowledge. We are changing body every moment—that's a medical science—and after changing this body, we'll have to accept another body.

How we are going to accept that body, what kind of body, this can be also known. Just like one is being educated, when he passes his examination one can understand that he's going to be engineer or a medical practitioner. Similarly, in this life you can prepare yourself to become something next life.

Barbara (Bob's fiancee): Can we decide what we want to be in our next life?

Prabhupāda: Yes, you can decide. Just like we have decided next life we are going to Kṛṣṇa. This is our decision, back to home, back to Godhead. Just like you become educated after decision that you are going to be engineer, you are going to be medical practitioner, and in that objective you prepare yourself, educate yourself.

Similarly, you can decide what you are going to do next life. If you don't decide, then material nature will decide. Just like a boy who is not nicely educated, without any future objective, the government will decide. If he's a criminal, then government will decide, "Go to jail," and if he's nicely educated, the government will decide, "You take this job."

So everything is like that. We have got our future life, and if we don't prepare what is that future life, then we are like animals. The animals, they do not know.

Barbara: Well how can I know if I wasn't Kṛṣṇa conscious in my last life . . .

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Barbara: If I . . . how can I know if I wasn't Kṛṣṇa conscious in my last life?

Prabhupāda: Therefore you are given the chance to become Kṛṣṇa conscious.

Barbara: Could I have been in my last life?

Prabhupāda: You may not be. It doesn't matter. But you can become, take advantage of our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: She's asking if it was possible in her last life she was a Kṛṣṇa's devotee, in her last life, and come back again? If you're a Kṛṣṇa's devotee coming back again. In her last life . . .

Prabhupāda: When one is perfectly Kṛṣṇa's devotee, he may not come. But if there is little deficiency, then there is possibility of coming back. But even though there is deficiency, he comes back to nice family, śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe yoga-bhraṣṭo sañjāyate (BG 6.41).

(aside referring to paper) What is this?

Human intelligence can decide for future. That is human intelligence. The animal cannot decide. We have got that discriminating power developed, "I shall do this, I will be benefited. If I do this, I shall not be benefited."

This is there in human life. So we have to use it properly. We should know what is our goal of life and decide in that way. That is human intelligence. What is that?

Bali-mardana: This is a photograph we've received of your Guru Mahārāja.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Bali-mardana: Yadubara, I think he has sent many from the family collection of Lalitā Prasāda. The painters . . .

Prabhupāda: So keep it and frame it, and keep it in my room.

Bali-mardana: Should the painters, should they paint such, uh, this type of pictures?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Why not?

Bali-mardana: And they can distribute to the centers?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Not all family members.

Bali-mardana: Just . . .

Prabhupāda: Simply Guru Mahārāja.

Bali-mardana: All right. What about this of Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura?

Prabhupāda: Oh, Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, but not that all family.

Bali-mardana: I see, yes.

Barbara: Have you ever seen Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Barbara: You have?

Prabhupāda: Daily. Every moment.

Barbara: But not in the material . . . not in the material body?

Prabhupāda: Huh? No in . . . he has no material body.

Barbara: Well in the temple here they have pictures of Kṛṣṇa . . .

Prabhupāda: That is not material. You are seeing material . . .

Barbara: Uh-huh.

Prabhupāda: . . . because you have got material eyes. Because your . . . you have got your material eyes, you cannot see the spiritual form. Therefore He kindly appears to be in material body so that you can see. This is the point. Because He has kindly made Himself just fit for your seeing, that does not mean He is . . . he has material body.

Just like President Nixon, if he kindly comes to your house, it does not mean that his position and your position is the same. It is his kindness, out of love, he may come to your house, but that does not mean he is on the same level with you. Similarly, because we cannot see with our present eyes what is Kṛṣṇa, therefore Kṛṣṇa appears before us as painting, as made of stone, as made of wood. And Kṛṣṇa is not different from these paintings and wood, because everything is Kṛṣṇa.

Barbara: After we die, what happens to our soul?

Prabhupāda: You get another body.

Barbara: Immediately?

Prabhupāda: Yes. After your . . . just like you change your apartment, you fix up your apartment first, then you leave this and go there.

Barbara: But we will . . . we won't know it.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Barbara: We wouldn't know it.

Prabhupāda: Yes, you'll know it, provided you are qualified; otherwise nature will arrange for you. Those who know, they know what is there, but those who do not know, then nature will arrange. You do not know means you have not prepared your life, so accidentally, at the time of death, your mentality will create another body and nature will supply you.

Barbara: I'm chanting. What does chanting do?

Prabhupāda: That you can ask these boys. They will instruct you.

Bob Cohen: Could you tell me what is the difference between, uh . . . Kṛṣṇa controls everything, so how, how does Kṛṣṇa control a nondevotee?

Prabhupāda: By māyā. By having . . . just like government controls everything. A criminal is controlled by the police department.

Bob Cohen: And how does Kṛṣṇa control a devotee?

Prabhupāda: Just like you control your beloved. Just like you have got a beloved child. So you control, for his benefit. If he's going to touch fire, you immediately say to him, "No, no, my dear child, don't touch it."

So a Kṛṣṇa conscious person, devotee, he is never misled, because Kṛṣṇa is always guiding him, whereas those who are not Kṛṣṇa conscious, they're in charge of māyā, and māyā will do the needful, as he acts.

Bob Cohen: Is is preset when we're born, the time that we'll die?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Bob Cohen: Is the time that I'm going to die, and everybody going to die, is this preset before they're born? Do I have . . . when I'm born, do I have a certain given life-span?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: And he cannot change that?

Prabhupāda: No. He cannot change, but Kṛṣṇa can change.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: If he commits suicide, if somebody commits suicide, that is also preset?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Not preset. That you can do, because you have got little independence. It is not natural to commit suicide. It is unnatural. So, because we have got little independence, we can go from nature to unnature, and we shall be prepared for that. Just like a prisoner cannot go out of the prison house naturally, but somehow or other he arranges to jump over the wall and goes away.

Then he becomes again criminal, for further imprisonment. Naturally, the prisoners cannot go out of the prison house. Somehow or other, he manages to go out. That means he becomes again criminal. He will be again arrested, and his term of imprisonment will be increased, or he will be punished more.

So naturally we cannot violate the destiny, but if we do it, then we suffer. But our destiny can be changed by Kṛṣṇa when we are Kṛṣṇa conscious. That we do not do, but Kṛṣṇa will do. Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi (BG 18.66): "I shall give you protection." So that change takes place for my protection by Kṛṣṇa. There are two stages: nondevotee and devotee.

The nondevotee is under the control of material nature, and devotee is under the direct control of Kṛṣṇa. Just like a big man. In the office there are many employees, they are controlled by different departmental superintendent. But the same man at home is controlling his children directly. The controller, he is controller both in the office and factory and home, but at home he is controller directly; outside home he is controller indirectly. But he is controller all, always.

Similarly, God is controller always. When one becomes devotee, he is controlled directly by God. When he is nondevotee, he is controlled by His agent, māyā. But he has to be controlled. Just like every citizens of America is controlled by the government. When he's all right, his civil department controls him. When he's not all right, then the criminal department controls him. But he cannot say that, "I am not controlled." That is not possible. (break) . . . says: "I am not controlled," he is not sane. He is crazy. Everyone is controlled.

So either you be controlled directly by God or you be controlled by His agency. Being controlled by māyā, you spoil your life. That means you remain in the material existence, one after another. You simply change your body. But if you give yourself to be controlled by God, then after this body you go back to home, back to Godhead. Then your life is successful.

You cannot be without being controlled. That is not possible. Therefore one who is intelligent, he puts himself under the control of God directly. That is intelligence. And that is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19): "After many births of struggling, or speculation, one surrenders unto Me." Vāsudevaḥ sarva . . . "Kṛṣṇa, You are everything. So I am . . . accept me. I am now fully surrendered unto You, and You control me."

Because I am controlled. So, so long I have been controlled by these rascals, so there is no benefit. I'm controlled . . . I have been controlled by my senses. So under the control of the senses, I have served family, so-called family, society, country, nation, up to serving the dog, but nothing has given me the satisfaction. Therefore now I have got sense, good sense. I put myself under Your power. Instead of being controlled by dog, let me be controlled by God." This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

You have not seen man, how he is controlled by a dog in the street? The dog stops, passes stool. "Yes, I stand." Is it not? He's passing stool, his urine, and the master is thinking, "I am master," but he's being controlled. That is māyā. He has become servant of dog, but he is thinking that "I am master of dog." This is māyā. This is māyā. So unless one is Kṛṣṇa conscious, one cannot understand. We can understand that this rascal is being controlled by this dog, but he's thinking that he is the master of him. We can understand. What do you think? Does he not become controlled by the dog?

Bob Cohen: It's very true.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Bob Cohen: That, it's very true.

Prabhupāda: But he's thinking that, "I am master of the dog." A family man, he's controlled by his wife, by his children, by his servant, by everyone, but he's thinking, "I am master." President Nixon is thinking that he's master of his country, but he's controlled.

At once he can be dismissed by the public, he is servant. And he takes that position, placing himself that "I'll give you very good service. I shall be your first-class servant." Therefore people vote, "All right, you become president." And he's advertising, "Re-elect me. Re-elect me." That means he is servant. But he's thinking, "I am master."

That is the position. Māyā. One who is controlled by māyā, he's thinking himself master, but he's servant. And a devotee, he'll never thinks himself, "I am master." "I am servant." That is the difference between māyā and not māyā. He at least knows that "I am never master. I am always servant." But these rascals, they think that they are master when actually they are servant. That is the difference.

That is the difference. When a servant is thinking, "I am master," that is called illusion. And when a servant thinks, "I am servant," that is not illusion; that is mukti. That is liberation. Because he is not controlled by a false thought.

Try to think about this subject matter. A devotee is never controlled by a false thought. He knows his position. Svarūpeṇa vyavasthitiḥ (SB 2.10.6). Mukti, liberation, means to be situated in his own constitutional position. That is called mukti, liberation. I am servant, so if I know that "I am servant," that is my liberation. And I am servant; if I think, "I am master," that is his bondage. That is the difference between conditioned life and liberated life.

So these Kṛṣṇa conscious devotee, they're always thinking that they are servants of Kṛṣṇa. Therefore all . . . they are all liberated. They haven't got to endeavor for liberation. They are already liberated, because they are situated in their constitutional position. They're not artificially thinking that, "I am master." Otherwise, everyone is thinking, "I am master." Everyone is thinking. That is illusion.

You cannot be master in any stage of your life. You must have to remain a servant. That is your position. But when one thinks artificially that he is master, that is his conditioned life. And when one voluntarily surrenders to the supreme master, that is his liberated life. A devotee hasn't got to try for liberation separately. As soon as he surrenders to Kṛṣṇa or Kṛṣṇa's representative, he is liberated.

Bob Cohen: Prabhupāda, people that engage in religions, like these Jesus freaks and other people, they claim that Jesus is guiding them. Can this be so?

Prabhupāda: Yes. But they're not taking the guidance. Just like the Christians. Jesus guiding him, "Thou shall not kill," but they're killing. Where is the Jesus guidance? Simply by saying: "I am guided by Jesus Christ" will do? "But I don't care for his words." Is that guidance?

So nobody is being guided by Jesus Christ. They're falsely claiming. It is very hard to find out a man who is actually being guided by Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ's guidance is open there, but nobody is caring for him. They have taken Jesus Christ as a contractor to take up their sins. That is their philosophy. They commit all kinds of sins, and poor Jesus Christ will be responsible. That is their religion.

Therefore they say: "We have got very good religion. For all our sinful activities, Jesus Christ will die." Very good religion. They have no sympathy for Jesus Christ. "Once he has died for our sins, why should we commit again sins? Such a great life has been sacrificed for our sins."

That is guided by Jesus Christ. But if we take it otherwise—"We shall go on committing all sins, and Jesus Christ has made contract that he'll nullify all my sins. Simply I go to the church and confess, and come back and again do all nonsense"—do you think it is very goodly intelligence?

Bob Cohen: No.

Prabhupāda: That you . . . actually one is guided by Jesus Christ, he'll get liberation, certainly. But it is very hard to find out a man who is actually being guided by Jesus Christ.

Bob Cohen: What I think about is the Jesus freaks, the . . . these people that . . . young people that have joined this Jesus movement, and they read the Bible very often, and they try to . . .

Prabhupāda: But read the Bible, but violate the Bible injunction . . . injunction. How they can kill if they are following the Bible?

Bob Cohen: I asked one. They said . . . he said he claimed that Jesus was also eating meat, in the Bible. But I don't know.

Prabhupāda: But that's all right. He, he may eat anything. He's powerful. But he has ordered, "Thou shall not kill. You must stop killing". He is powerful. He can eat the whole world. You cannot compare with Jesus Christ. If . . . you cannot imitate Jesus Christ, you shall have to abide by his order. That is your position. Then you are guided by Jesus Christ.

That is actually obedience. You cannot imitate. That is explained in Bhāgavata, that those who are īśvara, those who are empowered, they will do anything. But we cannot imitate. We have to abide by his order. "What he says to me, that I will do." You cannot imitate. If you say that, "Jesus Christ ate meat," admitting that, in what condition he ate meat, if you do not know, then Jesus Christ is contradicting his statement. He's eating himself meat, and he's advising others not to kill. Do you think Jesus Christ is contradicting?

Bob Cohen: No.

Prabhupāda: He cannot do that. That, that is real faith in Jesus, that he cannot do that. So, "Why he has eaten meat, he knows—but he has asked me not to kill. I have to follow it." That is real Christianity. You are not Jesus Christ. You cannot imitate. He has sacrificed his life for God.

Can you do that? So why you can imitate Jesus Christ? You are imitating Jesus Christ for eating meat. Why not imitate Jesus Christ, sacrifice your life for spreading God consciousness? What do you think, Kīrtanānanda?

Kīrtanānanda: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes. When you preach, you can say all these things with so-called Christians. So "What you are doing for God?" Tejīyasāṁ na doṣāya (SB 10.33.29). Just like sun. The sun is absorbing urine. You drink urine? If you want to imitate sun, "Oh, here is sun absorbing urine. Let me drink urine," can you?

Tejīyasāṁ na doṣāya. He is powerful. He can do everything. Therefore we cannot imitate him. We have to simply abide by his order. That is real Christian. You cannot imitate powerful man. That is wrong.

Just like in our Vedic literature there was a poison ocean. So what . . . people became puzzled what to do with this, this demigod. Then Lord Śiva said: "All right. I'll drink it." So he drank the whole poison ocean and kept it in his throat, nīlakaṇṭha. Now, you drink poison? Not the ocean. You drink one cup.

So how you can imitate Lord Śiva? Lord Śiva never advised that we drink poison. So you have to abide by the advice, not by imitating, "Oh, Lord Śiva . . ." Just like this LSD and marianas (marijuana), they say sometimes, "Lord Śiva used to smoke gāñjā." They say like that. But Lord Śiva drank the whole poison ocean. Can you do that?

Lord Śiva's instruction should be taken. He says: "The best worship is to worship Viṣṇu," viṣṇu ārādhanaṁ param. When Śiva was asked by Pārvatī, so "What method of worship is first class?" then he said: "The first-class worship is worshiping Lord Viṣṇu." Viṣṇu ārādhanaṁ param. Tasmāt parataraṁ devi tadīyānām ārādhanam (Cc. Madhya 11.31, Padma Purāṇa).

He said: "The Viṣṇu worship is the best." There are many demigods, but he recommended, "Viṣṇu worship is the best." And the better than Viṣṇu worship is to worship Vaiṣṇava. Tadīyānām ārādhanam. Tadīyā means His servant, or one who is . . . or what is in relationship with Him.

Just like we are worshiping this plant, tulasī. We are not worshiping all plants, but because this tulasī has very intimate connection with Kṛṣṇa and Viṣṇu, therefore we are worshiping. Tadīyānām ārādhanam. Similarly, anything who is intimately related with Kṛṣṇa, worship of that thing is better than worship of Viṣṇu, Kṛṣṇa.

Bob Cohen: Why is that?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Bob Cohen: Why is that? That worshiping . . .?

Prabhupāda: Because, because Kṛṣṇa will be pleased. Just like if you have got dog, and if some friends come and pats your dog, you become pleased. You become pleased, "Ah, he is my good friend." We see on the street . . . (aside) Come on . . . that some friend comes and friend's dog, the friend's, "My sir, my . . . you have got a nice dog," your friend says. (laughter)

(aside) Come on. Aiye. Namste! Ap sab kidhar se hai? (Please come. Namaste. Where are you all from?)

Indian guest: Mai Bombay se hu. Ye meri Ma hai. (I am from Bombay. She is my mother.)

Prabhupāda: Accha, Bombay se. Bhagavan ka darshan kiya ap log. (Alright, from Bombay. Did you all see the Deities?)

Indian guest: Ha ji. Aye the aur humara aisa saubhagya ho gaya ki ap bhi yaha padhare. (Yes. We came and we are lucky that you are also here.)

Prabhupāda: Ha, abhi ja rahe hai London. Aiye, aiye. (Yes, I am leaving today for London immediately. Please come.)

Indian guest: Inka nam Kṛṣṇa hai . . . (indistinct) . . . mataji hai. (His name is also Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) . . . she is my mother.)

Prabhupāda: Accha. (Okay.) Give them some prasāda. Ap aur sab branch me hum log, ap gaye the nahi? (Did you all visit any other branches?)

Indian guest: Nahi. Mai to New York me hi tha isliye . . . Paris me dekha. (No. I was in New York recently . . . I saw in Paris.)

Prabhupāda: Paris me, accha . . . aur London? (In Paris, okay . . . and London?)

Indian guest: London me nahi gaya. (No, I did not visit London.)

Prabhupāda: London me bohot . . . baithiye sab. (There is a big temple in London . . . please sit everyone.)

Indian guest: Apne to zabardust Bhagavan ka . . . kya bole? Badi khushi hui sunke. (You have preached about God tremendously . . . what can I say? I am very happy to see.)

Prabhupāda: Ab dekhiye na ye log ko samjhane ke liye dimag lagane padhta hai bohot. Ek ek ko samjhane ke liye. Abhi unko samjha raha tha kyu Tulasī ko, kyu hum log puja karte hai. Ye Tulasī hai. (See, we have to make a lot of effort to make them understand, lots of effort for each and every person. Just now I was explaining to him why we worship Tulasī. This is Tulasī.)

Indian guest: Ha, ha Tulasi Maharani. Apka Hindustan me kaha nivas sthan rehta hai? (Yes, yes Tulasī Mahārānī. Where do you stay in India?)

Prabhupāda: Humara janmasthan Calcutta hai, baki humara Bombay me hai, Juhu me. Nahi, Bombay me humara centre hai, Juhu me. Bis hazar square yard jagah hum log liya . . . aise hi Mayapur, Chaitanya Mahaprabhu ka janmasthan me, Vrindavan me. To ap New York me koi kam karte hai kya? (My birthplace is Calcutta, and we have centers in Bombay, in Juhu. Now we have a center in Bombay, in Juhu. We have taken a twenty thousand square yard place . . . also like that in Māyāpur, which is birthplace of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, also in Vrindāvan. Do you work somewhere in New York?)

Indian guest: Ha. Mai teen sal se yaha hu. Aur pehle insurance ka karta tha, abhi export-import ka thoda sa kar raha hu. Ha thoda sa. (Yes. I have been here for 3 years. Earlier I was working in insurance but now import and export. Yes little bit.)

Prabhupāda: Business? Ha thik hai, thik hi hai. (That's okay, it is alright.) (pause) Jab apko fursat hoga aiyega temple me. (When you get time, do visit the temple.)

Indian guest: Ji hum ate hai. Ap ja rahe hai aj? (Yes, I come. Are you leaving today?)

Prabhupāda: Ha. Udhar Ratha-Yatra hoga. London me. London me barabar Ratha-Yatra me hota hai. Abhi teen char baras se. San Francisco me hota hai . . . aur aur jagah me hota hai. (Yes. We have Rath Yātrā there in London. We have been organizing Rath Yātrā in London since last 3-4 years . . . also in San Francisco, and in other places too.)

Indian guest: Ap yaha se London ja rahe hai? Kitna . . . (indistinct)? (Are you leaving for London from here? how much time . . . (indistinct) . . .)

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Kam se kam ek mahina lagega. London se Paris jayenge, Marseille jayenge aur ho sakta hai Nairobi. Udhar bhi humara mandir hai. Apka Gujarati udhar bohot hai. (It will take at least one month. From London I will be visiting Paris, Marseille, maybe Nairobi too. We have a temple there as well. There are a lot of Gujaratis there.)

Indian guest: Ha. Bhāgavata ka ya sirf . . . ? (Yes. Is anyone preaching Bhāgavata there or just . . .?)

Prabhupāda: Sab aise hi hai. Sab mandir hai. Bhāgavata path ho raha hai, Bhagavad-gītā. (Yes all of them are the same. There is a temple, Bhāgavata recitation, Bhagavad-gītā.)

Indian guest: Yaha kisiko Bhagavata ka prachar karne ke liye ana hoga? Aur kisiko kuch bolna ho to yaha jagah mil sakti hai? (Someone should also come here to preach Bhāgavata. If anyone wants to come here and speak, will they get a place?)

Prabhupāda: Bhāgavata ka prachar to hum hi log kar sakte hai. (Bhāgavata preaching can be done by us only.)

Indian guest: Ap logo ke sath hi rehke. (I mean together with you all only.)

Prabhupāda: (break) One saptah? Ek shloka samajhne me to apka jivan bit jayega. (One week? It takes a whole lifetime to understand one śloka.)

Indian guest: Wo to sacchi hai. (That is true.)

Prabhupāda: Ye sab profession hai. (This is all profession.) We don't encourage this. Wo Bhāgavata sunata hai sara jivan, aur unko Bhāgavata sunta bhi hai sara jivan. Wo kisi ka kuch hota nahi hai. Wo jaha tha taha hi rahega. (One speaks the Bhāgavata his whole life, the other one listens to him his whole life, nothing happens to anyone. They stay the same.)

So this professional will not help us. They have taken as a profession. As you are doing business, they have taken as reading Bhāgavata. Maf kijiyega humara bat ap sun rahe hai. (My apologies if you did not like what I said.)

Indian guest: Nahi, apki bat sacchi hai. Mai . . . kisi ek ne pucha tha, maine apka pucha. Bas. Mujhe to usme koi ye nahi. Ab hum uthe kyu ki apko bhi jana hai. Badi khushi hui. (Someone asked me so I asked you. I have nothing to do with it. Please give us your leave as you have to go very soon. We are very happy to meet you.)

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Aiyega. (Please come.) Come on.

Indian man: Ek photo khiche? (May I take one photo?)

Prabhupāda: Please, Jaya.

Barbara: Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Jaya.

Devotee: So Prabhupāda, you'll be leaving in about ten minutes. In ten minutes. About ten minutes

Prabhupāda: Yes. I am ready. I can go.

Kīrtanānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda's always ready.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Kīrtanānanda: You're always ready.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They have taken that all bags and baggages, that's all right. I am ready. What is that telegram?

Kīrtanānanda: That's, I think, Śrīla Prabhupāda, there's a group in Cleveland, Ohio.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Kīrtanānanda: There is a colored lady who is leading a group, and they're dressing in dhotīs and sārīs, and, uh, they're doing some . . .

Prabhupāda: So you just train them.

Kīrtanānanda: They're giving some disturbance to the temple there. And they are here. They've come to New York.

Prabhupāda: Ah. So, what do they want?

Kīrtanānanda: They want to see you.

Prabhupāda: Why? He is not my student. So the GBC unders may see and do the needful. In all affairs, how can I see everyone?

Kīrtanānanda: No. You . . . I don't think you should.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Kīrtanānanda: You asked me what they wanted.

Prabhupāda: Everyone wants, but how can I see everyone?

(aside) Give it to Śyāmasundara.

Kīrtanānanda: So you will come for Janmāṣṭamī.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Kīrtanānanda: Without fail.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Nanda-kumāra. Ask Nanda-kumāra. (pause) You have taken everything? Packed?

Nanda-kumāra: Almost finished. I have about five or ten minutes left.

Prabhupāda: Oh. So where is the key of the almirah?

Nanda-kumāra: Uh, it's on the key ring.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And you have got one?

Nanda-kumāra: No. That turned out that that other key was the same make of key, but it didn't fit the slot. There was only one key.

Prabhupāda: All right. Then where is the pen?

Nanda-kumāra: That Gopāla Kṛṣṇa gave you?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Nanda-kumāra: I have that packed in your suitcase.

Prabhupāda: That's all. Preach, preach, preach, preach, preach, preach . . . here everyone is . . . (indistinct) . . . that Christian, "Oh what . . . what Christian you are? You are disobeying the orders of Jesus Christ, and you . . . (indistinct) . . . a Christian."

This is going on. We don't say that because you are Christian you cannot love God. We simply say that you are not following. If you follow, then you can learn also how to love God. I never said. So many questions are there. "By following Jesus, yes, we can attain perfection." Yes?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Śrīla Prabhupāda, which would you like to take?

Prabhupāda: Any one will do.

Śyāmasundara: So shall I take your passport now, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: And health card?

Prabhupāda: Yes. So here is my passport, and here are my health cards. Is that all right?

Śyāmasundara: Yes. This we have to turn in when leaving the country.

Bali-mardana: Prabhupāda, can I offer you a fresh garland?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Thank you. It is too fresh.

Bali-mardana: Huh?

Prabhupāda: Too fresh. (laughter) Water.

Bali-mardana: Oh, I'm sorry.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. Now, you can take this. Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja, you can take this. Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja. Where is Viṣṇujana? He can take this.

Devotee: Viṣṇujana Swami.

Prabhupāda: And if you can distribute among the others? Where is my, that wrapper? Yes. So the Deity is open?

Bali-mardana: Yes, yes.

Prabhupāda: So I'll go and see the Deity, and from that door I shall get out.

Bali-mardana: I see. I'll arrange.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) Ready?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: No, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: So ask them to keep my one cloth out; otherwise I may require in the . . . (indistinct) . . . at least one sweater, one wrapper.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: So is that . . . our version about Christianity is all right?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Wonderful, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Huh, where is Christian? Simply by saying that, "I am Christian . . ."

Ātreya Ṛṣi: There is no Christian.

Prabhupāda: There is no Christian. Otherwise there is no difference between Christianity and our philosophy. They're Christian, we're Krishnian. And Christ comes from the word Kṛṣṭa. So if they actually follow the commandments given by Lord Jesus Christ, the world will change, immediately.

Devotee: Is that solely . . .

Prabhupāda: Unnecessarily, false argument. Even Jesus Christ ate meat, you cannot imitate. You have to follow his instruction.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, our best . . . I have found that the best argument is, you practice. Proof.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So I shall go? No.

Bali-mardana: A few minutes, I think, 'cause they are still packing.

Prabhupāda: All right.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: None of these religions have produced a sannyāsī.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: None of them—a person who is detached from material life.

Jayādvaita: I was reading in the Bible . . .

Prabhupāda: Therefore I refused this Bhāgavata reader. He wants to come here, and no, we don't want these professional men. We want men who have sacrificed their life for God. We want such men, not professional. The so-called priests, they are professional.

They are earning money. That's all. Just see, they . . . how the karmīs are earning money by their business, and it has become a business. Everywhere, religion has become a business.

Devotee: They perform some charity, that's all.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Devotee: They just perform some char . . .

Prabhupāda: What charity they can do? We also, a "loophole," that's all. We are making charity.

Jayādvaita: I was reading in their book, the Bible . . .

Prabhupāda: And they're playing gambling.

Devotee: Yes. In the church.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Devotees: Bingo.

Prabhupāda: Bingo.

Jayādvaita: I was reading, they prescribe . . . the book prescribes all our principles.

Prabhupāda: And five hundred . . . five hundred priests are in hospital for, for their drinking habit. Five hundred or five thousand? You know that? Yes. Brahmānanda gave me a cutting from newspaper, that five hundred or five thousand priests are in the hospital to cure of their drinking habit.

Kīrtanānanda: Probably five thousand.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Kīrtanānanda: Probably five thousand . . . (indistinct) . . . five hundred. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: Huh? They're drinking, they're eating meat, they're gambling and they are having illicit sex, and they are preaching. And we say: "First of all stop these things, then claim yourself to be religious, or God conscious." You cannot indulge in all these things.

(aside) Oh, you have kept my one cloth outside?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. It's outside.

Prabhupāda: Because I may require in the . . . so, we don't want to enter into arguments, but we must know. But if somebody comes to argument, we have to say. What can be done?

We say that, "You follow Christianity in perfect order, you'll be benefited." That we say. Our test is whether you're advancing in God consciousness. That is our test. You follow Christianity or Muhammadanism, anything you follow, we don't mind. Whether you are developing your God consciousness, love for God, that is our test.

But if your process has failed, then you can try this. And you'll see, in our process, within so short time how they are becoming God conscious. You have to admit. And they admit also.

Viṣṇujana: They're not getting any young priests.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Viṣṇujana: They're not getting young priests. Only this movement is getting young priests.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (chuckles) Very young. Just from the womb of the mother. (laughter) Yes?

Śyāmasundara: We should go, Śrīla Prabhupāda. The car's . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, I'm ready. (break)

(conversation in car)

I think that, that building is Empire Building?

Śyāmasundara: Yes. Empire State Building.

Pradyumna: These are now world's biggest, these buildings here, those big square ones. (World Trade Center buildings).

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Pradyumna: They're much taller than the Empire State Building. (break)

(at airport)

Bali-mardana: . . . your flight.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Bali-mardana: Luggage is arriving a little bit later, different flight.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Bali-mardana: There was not time to get it on the plane.

Prabhupāda: But, uh, tickets?

Bali-mardana: He has the tickets.

Prabhupāda: I can give you that also. (japa) (end)