770203 - Conversation A - Bhuvanesvara
Prabhupāda: . . . India because the Japanese people, they were trying to expand. Two, three wars they tried, they could not. They wanted to take this advantage, Subhas Bose's cooperation. But their motive was different. And therefore they killed Subhas Bose. Subhas Bose was . . . (break)
Svarūpa Dāmodara: . . . in Manipur. So they wanted to construct some sort of memorial building but, somehow, India government is not granting them. So instead of doing that, they were just collecting the bones. They found out some bones by some . . . (laughter)
Prabhupāda: Bhūtejyā. This is called bhūtejyā.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: And they carried those bones along with them. Just in the village where I lived many Japanese bones were found. And they were coming very frequently to collect the bones.
Prabhupāda: Just see.
Gargamuni: When we were in Dvārakā they also showed us some shells.
Prabhupāda: How these Japanese died in Manipur?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They came, I think, in the war.
Prabhupāda: Oh, they attacked Manipur, and they were killed.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually the main Second World War was in Manipur towards the end.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Towards the end. The Japanese were trying to enter India, and Subhas Bose was there.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, many people saw Subhas Bose.
Prabhupāda: So Japanese planned that, "Kill Subhas Bose, and let us enter." Subhas Bose wanted Japanese help to enter India. The Japanese took this opportunity that, "We shall enter India and kill Subhas Bose." That was their trick.
Bhāgavata: So then they killed him. They killed him in that plane crash.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The Japanese had no honesty. You see? They thought "This is the opportunity that this Indian leader wants our help. So with his help we enter India. And this is the opportunity to occupy India." Because they are searching after land. They are very poor in land. They have no place; very little land. Therefore they are now going to Hawaii to settle down. They have no place.
Bhāgavata: How did Subhas Bose get from India to Germany?
Prabhupāda: That is also political. He was, what is called, interned at home.
Bhāgavata: By the British. Kept in his house.
Prabhupāda: Hmm. So there was the minister, Nizamuddin I think, he helped him to go out. He was going for evening walk with police force and other. So it became accustomed. Police became lenient, in the meantime slipped. And in a dress of a kābuli, kābuli-wālā, pāṭhan, he crossed India. In this way he went out.
Bhāgavata: I heard he took the dress of a Muslim?
Prabhupāda: Yes, this is called . . . yes. This is called pāṭhan. So after going outside India, he organized this INA, Indian National Army. And Hitler helped him. Tojo also wanted to help him, but he had a plan.
Bhāgavata: Different motive. So Hitler, he had no . . .
Prabhupāda: No, Hitler actually helped him, all the soldiers. And then the Sikh soldiers and Gurkha soldiers voluntarily surrendered to join INA. And this information obliged the Britishers to go away. Then "Now the army is joining national movement, so there is no hope." The Gandhi's noncooperation, the clerks' noncooperation, the . . . some of these teachers' noncooperation, what do they care for? But when they saw that, "The soldiers are now going to join this non . . ." Gandhi diagnosed the disease rightly that, "The Britishers are here on account of our cooperation. Without this cooperation, they'll go away." And that's a fact. So his noncooperation movement was . . . it was a good trick, but actually he did not succeed. And this movement succeeded, that "Now he's organizing Indian soldiers for national movement. There is no chance."
Gargamuni: That Mrs. Lalita Bose, she compared you to Netajī, that you went outside of India and organized an army, (laughter) then came back to India. She said that. She's the granddaughter? That Lalita Bose?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Niece.
Gargamuni: She said: "Your Gurujī is just like Netajī. He went outside of India and organized army of Vaiṣṇavas."
Prabhupāda: Yes. Now it is in the right hand. You are resourceful, you Americans. You can do this. There is scientist. So we have got the framework very nice. Now you can push on. It is a good movement for the benefit of the whole world. Kṛṣṇa will help you. Kṛṣṇa will recognize you. Go on pushing rightly. Our only mission is para-upakāra—we don't want to exploit anyone—Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. The people in general, human being, they have got this opportunity of being out of the clutches of māyā, and they are kept in darkness. What is the use? Is that civilization? This is our mission. Here is opportunity for his getting out of the clutches of māyā, daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā (BG 7.14), and they are being misled, the so-called science and nasty philosophy and economic and making them, training them as demons and rākṣasas. What is this civilization? So our movement is against this demonic civilization. It is really para-upakāra.
- bhārata-bhūmite haila manuṣya-janma yāra
- janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra
- (CC Adi 9.41)
And this is India's mission, Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission: para-upakāra. So . . . and Kṛṣṇa also confirms, ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ mad-bhakteṣv abhidhāsyati, na ca tasmād . . . (BG 18.68). You'll be recognized by Kṛṣṇa. Simply go on sincerely working for this movement. Nobody can defeat you. Take all strategic point, fighting with māyā, and become victorious. From any point of view, come on. We shall fight with māyā. It is a great declaration of fight with māyā. Not with māyā; we are . . . our fight is with the demons. Māyā is servant, maidservant of Kṛṣṇa. She can withdraw by the order. But she cannot withdraw, because people are demons. So this European opposition, American opposition is that the demons are now feeling the pressure. That is recognition that, "Now it is a fight. We have to defend."
Nanda-kumāra: The outcome of the battle is already decided. Just like in Bhagavad-gītā, we've already won. We just have to keep . . . keep fighting.
Prabhupāda: They are now feeling the pressure of the opposite party. So . . . fight is fight. When there is fight, my Guru Mahārāja used to say: "Some of our soldiers will die. It doesn't matter." You don't expect that not a single soldier of your party will not die. No, some of them will die. Still, fight must go on. Fight cannot be stopped. So fight like brave soldiers, Kṛṣṇa will help you. Don't make any compromise. No truce with these demons. Fight must be. Our fighting weapon is Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. That's all. Sāṅgopāṅgāstra-pārṣadam (BG 9.14). Astra. That astra is yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana, this saṅkīrtana, this astra weapon. They're now afraid of this astra more than atomic weapon. Is it not?
Gargamuni: Oh, yes.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) So . . .
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Everybody knows. At least, everybody knows about Hare Kṛṣṇa, about this saṅkīrtana.
Prabhupāda: No, it is more dangerous than the atomic weapon. They have accepted it.
Gargamuni: Yes. In many countries we are known to be very dangerous.
Gargamuni: In many countries we are known to be very dangerous, this Hare Kṛṣṇa. They are afraid.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They even write, the psychiatrists, that "These people are very dangerous." (Prabhupāda chuckles)
Bhāgavata: We are threatening their sense gratification.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So go on with fighting. We are not the Vṛndāvana bābājīs, "No, we are so perfect we do not go out of Vṛndāvana, and chant . . . chant or not chant, we have got three dozen widows." This is going on. Sahajiyā. Still they are better, because they have accepted Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Lord, than these demons. Our Guru Mahārāja said that although we condemn these sahajiyās, but they are better than the Māyāvādīs because they accept Kṛṣṇa as Supreme Lord. Their character is not good. But still, because they accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Lord somehow or other, they are better than these Māyāvādīs.
Prabhupāda: Sahajiyā means they have taken everything very easy. That's all.
Gargamuni: Would you like to rest a little bit?
Prabhupāda: No. Why rest?
Prabhupāda: So we go at ten?
Prabhupāda: 10:15, that's all.
Gargamuni: (to other devotees) See how you're going to pack?
Hari-śauri: Yes. (break)
Prabhupāda: . . . duty after all. Everyone is His son. Condemned maybe, but they must be supplied with food. (break) . . . supplies food to the prisoners.
Hari-śauri: Hmm. (break)
Prabhupāda: . . . are kept as prisoners of māyā. We want to fight and release them. Who has got such good mission?
Hari-śauri: No one even understands, actually, what the problem is.
Prabhupāda: One does not understand—that does not mean the fact is not.
Hari-śauri: Yes. You said preaching is a thankless task.
Prabhupāda: Just see Jesus Christ—crucified. What was his fault? He was crucified. Of course, he was not crucified.
Hari-śauri: No, but externally he . . .
Prabhupāda: Nobody can crucify him. But the people are so thankless . . .
Hari-śauri: That they wanted to do that.
Prabhupāda: Such a great personality, son of God. He wanted to deliver God consciousness. And return, he was crucified. We don't take Jesus Christ very insignificantly. We give him all honor. He's representative of God. He tried to preach according to the time, place, circumstances, country, people. Otherwise he is representative of God.
Hari-śauri: Yeah. Well, to say . . . he only preached for three years, too.
Prabhupāda: He could not preach even, but still, in three years what he did is wonderful.
Hari-śauri: Yes. He's world famous for the last two thousand years.
Prabhupāda: Yes, not joke. Unless he's God representative, how he can be so famous? That we know. I told in Melbourne, "What is your idea of Jesus Christ?" And "He's our guru," I told. You remember that?
Hari-śauri: I don't . . . that was at one of those . . .
Prabhupāda: The priest meeting.
Hari-śauri: Yes. I didn't attend that. I wasn't there.
Prabhupāda: They asked me. And, "He's our guru." They very much appreciated. He is preaching God's consciousness, so he is our guru, spiritual master. That's a fact. Don't take him otherwise. He's guru.
Hari-śauri: It's just his nonsense followers.
Prabhupāda: Guruṣu nara-matiḥ. Such person, great personality, why shall I think of him as ordinary human being? That is nārakī-buddhi.
Prabhupāda: Anyone who is preaching God's glories, he is guru. So how can I decry him? He is guru. Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). Unless one is guru, how he can preach about God?
Hari-śauri: Yes. Actually, we have a much better appreciation of Jesus than anyone . . .
Prabhupāda: More, yes. Oh, yes.
Hari-śauri: . . . because we actually understand the value of the guru.
Prabhupāda: We are the greatest Christian. We follow his instruction; we accept him as guru.
Hari-śauri: Yeah. Without following the guru's instructions, there's no question of appreciating who he is or his work.
Prabhupāda: And this word, "Jesus the Christ," it is not?
Hari-śauri: Well, originally they say it was "Jesus of the Christ."
Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . Christ means . . .
Hari-śauri: So they . . . originally it was "Jesus of the Christ," meaning he was son of God.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That Christ is Kṛṣṇa.
Hari-śauri: Yeah. Same word.
Prabhupāda: Hmm. Krisht, Krisht. Christ means Krisht, Krisht. Krishta is vulgar expression of Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: No, from his teaching we can understand he is representative of God.
Hari-śauri: Oh, yes. He's . . . what he was teaching is exactly in accord with what we're doing.
Hari-śauri: I was reading some of his instructions, what he was giving to his original disciples. And he gave them examples that, "The birds, they are not worrying about their food. God is supplying. So you should not worry for your food. You should simply go out and preach."
Prabhupāda: He said like that?
Hari-śauri: Yes. He said: "So what should you worry if you go out and preach? Do you think that God will not give to you?"
Hari-śauri: "He is giving to the birds."
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is, our mission.
Hari-śauri: Yes. And he told them, "You should not worry for your food, for your clothing, for somewhere to stay. If you preach, then God will look after all those things."
Prabhupāda: Yes. That's a fact.
Hari-śauri: And he had them give up everything. They had a common pool. Anyone that came to join him, they would pool all their resources and share it among them. Anybody who was with nothing, he would get something. They would get food and clothing, like that.
Prabhupāda: We are planning like that, "Come, take your food. Reside comfortably. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa."
Hari-śauri: Yes. We have no objection for . . .
Hari-śauri: . . . feeding them. He was an actual Vaiṣṇava . . .
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.
Hari-śauri: . . . teaching Vaiṣṇava principles.
Prabhupāda: If he has taken sometimes fish, there was no way . . . what can be done? Not for his sense gratification.
Hari-śauri: Even that's not certain, that he took fish, anyway.
Prabhupāda: Sometimes it is said.
Hari-śauri: Well, it mentions that they distributed foodstuffs to a lot of people, fish and bread, 'cause that's all that was available.
Prabhupāda: Yes. What can be done?
Hari-śauri: And because it wasn't always easy to get good water, there's a very cheap kind of wine. It's not actually very alcoholic. It's very, very cheap. Then they used to drink that because there was no good water.
Prabhupāda: That is not plea that we shall drink bottle after bottle.
Hari-śauri: Yes. (laughs) Catholic priests, they have a big stock in their cabinets, so much wine.
Prabhupāda: If they want to be reformed, we can reform them. On the basis of Bible, we can reform them. There is no difficulty.
Prabhupāda: Most of my disciples, they are coming from the Christian group. They can reform. Chanting is also recommended in the Bible, the glories of the Lord. I do not know why these rascals, Protestant . . . that means . . . the Protestant means last class. Why they should protest against Jesus law? Protestant means that. They protested. Is it not?
Hari-śauri: I'm not sure about . . . I don't know much about the history of Protestants.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That King John, who started this Protestant movement? Some king in England.
Hari-śauri: Yes, it was started like that.
Prabhupāda: Yes. He was forbidden not to divorce his wife.
Hari-śauri: No, that was Church of England, Henry the Eighth.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Oh, Henry the Eighth. He started this Protestant.
Hari-śauri: He was excommunicated from the Catholic Church . . .
Prabhupāda: But this . . .
Hari-śauri: . . . so he started the Church of England.
Prabhupāda: . . . Protestant group was started by him.
Hari-śauri: I don't know anything about their history.
Prabhupāda: That is the history.
Hari-śauri: There's always been fighting between the Protestants and the Catholics though.
Prabhupāda: Well, fighting must be there. They protested.
Hari-śauri: There's so many Christian sects.
Prabhupāda: There are many. Means they don't want anything genuine. Something imitation. What is the cause of fighting, this Ireland? Unnecessarily. It is going on in Europe since long time. In France it was very terrible fight. I have seen that Church. They would bell, and they'll come and fight Protestant. You have been there? No. Concorde. It is . . . that place is called Concorde. So history there is a building, church. The Catholics would come and kill the Protestants. The Joan of Arc.
Hari-śauri: She was burnt.
Hari-śauri: Europe has a big history of . . .
Hari-śauri: . . . religious fighting.
Prabhupāda: Crusade. Crusade.
Hari-śauri: Yes. The Crusades were against the Arabs, though.
Prabhupāda: That was a religious fight.
Hari-śauri: Yes. Christians against the Muhammadans. That article of Gurudāsa's was very nice.
Hari-śauri: They asked him, "Do you think that another religion will help Ireland?" criticizing that, "We've already got two religions, and they're fighting, and what do you think you're going to do?" So then he said: "Well, actually, it's another way of life, and Ireland could certainly use another way of life." It was a good point. We get a good reception there too, our devotees. People are very pious there, because Ireland is still very simple.
Prabhupāda: Everywhere people are simple. That is my opinion. Mass people, they are simple. The leaders spoil them.
Hari-śauri: Yes. That's a fact. Most people are just . . . they're in ignorance.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The human psychology is the same for man, woman. That's all. Amongst the lower animals you see. The pigeons, they are the same. The sparrow, they are the same everywhere. The squirrel, the same, the same. So why men should be different?
Hari-śauri: It's artificial, the differences they've created themselves . . .
Hari-śauri: . . . on national basis.
Prabhupāda: In Russia I have seen. The people are the same.
Hari-śauri: Yes. Common mass of people are always . . .
Prabhupāda: Simple. Hmm?
Hari-śauri: I think I'll see what's happening with the van.
Prabhupāda: Hmm. (end)