701212 - Lecture SB 06.01.21 and Conversation - Indore
(Redirected from Room Conversation -- December 12, 1970, Indore)
Prabhupāda: In good health?
Haṁsadūta: Oh yes.
Prabhupāda: And for young man, the more he sleeps, he is dead. (laughter) (chuckles) He's a dead body. The child, if he overeats, if he overeats, then it is not bad for him. But anyone overeats, it is bad, specially for old man. And if child gets diarrhea, it is good for him. When a old man gets diarrhea, it is death for him.
Child gets diarrhea means whatever poisons he has acquired he gets out. His health becomes renovated. And old man, if he gets diarrhea, he loses his vitality. Chele hage banchte budho hage morte. (A young man can recover from diarrhea by passing stool but an old man gets closer to death by doing so.) These are the para . . . what is called? Common sayings? Parables?
Haṁsadūta: . . . (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Oh, it is time. They are not yet ready?
Haṁsadūta: No. (pause) If we get that house, Prabhupāda . . .
Prabhupāda: You can get.
Haṁsadūta: We can get?
Prabhupāda: Yes, why not? We have appealed to the king, and he is willing. Why can you not? What is the difficulty? Now it is your business how to induce, induce him. There is chance, ninety percent chance.
Haṁsadūta: In which way will it be most helpful—in giving money personally or inducing others to give money? They will give money?
Prabhupāda: Yes, otherwise . . .
Haṁsadūta: How much money?
Prabhupāda: Ten lakhs.
Haṁsadūta: Ten lakhs. They can give the full amount?
Prabhupāda: Yes, why not? This man . . . it is to be very carefully tackled. This king is going to die very soon. And as soon as the king dies, the queen's position is very precarious, almost finished. So if she becomes our president, she'll continue to keep her honor and prestige. That's a fact. She's a good lady.
We have no objection to make her the president of the local center. And she is American. She will be able to tackle these American boys and girls with motherly affection. And we shall keep her always in good respect, so that throughout her life she shall be honored all over as she was . . . as she was honored with her husband. This is a fact. So you have to convince her.
And I think if the other ladies who are . . . her daughter-in-law and granddaughters, like that . . . because her son is dead. He was the king. This old man being invalid, his son was king. And I think that middle-aged woman was there. You have marked this? She might be her daughter-in-law and the young girls might be grandchildren.
One of them, one of the daughters, girl, was very beautiful. So it appears that she comes from the royal family. Rāja-kanyā. King's daughters are very beautiful. That is fabulous in India, king's daughter, rāja-kanyā. In India if anybody gets a good dowry and a beautiful wife it is said, arddhe rajatva eka rāja-kanyā.
Actually we have seen in . . . when Devaki was married to Vasudeva, how much dowry. (chuckles) Can anyone imagine now? So many thousands of horses, chariots, elephants, maidservants, all decorated with gold ornaments. One cannot imagine even at the present moment. Therefore they talk of "legends." But actually such dowries were given when a king's daughter was married.
Not only royal family, even in ordinary family still, those who are rich, they spend lots of money to be married, either son's marriage or daughter's. When one spends lots of money during the marriage of one's daughter and son he is considered to be really rich man. That is the proof that he is rich man.
So I can begin. Why he cannot rise, this, what is called, Muktānanda? That's all right. Where he is?
Devotee: Muktānanda, Prabhu?
Prabhupāda: Yes. You come here. Girls may sit here. (Hindi: Please come to the . . . (indistinct) . . .) You can sit comfortably on this. (devotees come in and sit down) What is that?
Kauśalyā: Her baby. Her child. Her son.
Prabhupāda: Oh. So we were talking of Ajāmila, a Brahmin resident of Kānyakubja, presently known as Kanauj. So:
- kānyakubje dvijaḥ kaścid
- asit patir asit kaścid
- dāsī-patir ajāmilaḥ
- nāmnā naṣṭa-sadācāro
- dāsyaḥ saṁsarga-dūṣitaḥ
- (SB 6.1.21)
That, what is known as, at the present, prostitute, they were known as dāsya, dāsī.
Don't make sound, "cut, cut." Silent.
Dāsī . . . the kṣatriya kings also, when they married, with dowry many maidservants would follow the queen. That was the kṣatriya system. So Ajāmila was the illegal husband of a prostitute, dāsī, dāsī-pati. Actually one should be husband of dharma-pati, religiously married, not a friend or a husband of illegal marriage. That is not allowed.
Dāsī-patir ajāmilaḥ nāmnā . . . Ajāmila nāmnā. His name was Ajāmila. (aside:) Why the sound is in . . .? It is not possible to chant? "Cut, cut cut, cut." Naṣṭa-sadācāraḥ. Sadācāra means good behavior. Why good behavior was lost? Dāsyaḥ saṁsarga-dūṣitaḥ: because he was associating with a prostitute, illegal sex.
Therefore, anyone who wants to make progress in spiritual life, he must be sadācāra. His behavior must be very regulated. Asadācārī, unclean, non regulated, cannot make any progress. If somebody says that, "Whatever you like, you can do. There is no difference. You can imagine your own way . . ." This is going on nowadays. "Whatever you like, you can do. You can imagine your own way of self-realization."
But that is not recommended in the Vedic literatures. One must be sadācāra. This is the beginning of sadācāra: to rise early in the morning, to cleanse, then chant, or chant the Vedic mantras or, simplified as in the present age, Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, mahā-mantra. This is the beginning of sadācāra.
So sadācāra means to become freed from sinful reaction. Unless one follows the regulative principles he cannot be freed. And unless one is fully freed from sinful reaction, he cannot understand what is God. Those who are not in sadācāra, regulative principles, for them . . . just like animals, they are not expected to follow any . . . of course, by nature they follow regulative principles. Still, but human beings, having advanced consciousness, so instead of using it properly, they misuse the advanced consciousness, and thus they become lower than animals.
The animals, for want of advanced consciousness, cannot follow any regulative principles. But by nature they have got some regulative principle. A human being, advanced consciousness, instead of using it for advance in spiritual life, they use it for sense gratification, and thus they become lower than the animals.
So as soon as one becomes irregulated, without any sadācāra, then he doesn't care for any sinful activities for maintaining his body and soul together. He doesn't mind. Their philosophy is . . . what is called? "Existence is the first law of nature," or something like . . .
Guest (1): Self-preservation.
Prabhupāda: Self-preservation. So self-preservation . . . they do not know what is self-preservation. That is another ignorance. They consider this body as the self. Their self-preservation means to keep this body. And that is also not possible. If you do not follow regulative principles, it is not possible to keep your body in good condition. That is also not possible.
Those who do not follow the regulative principles, mostly they are diseased, some kind. We find in the medical . . . modern medical shop, the customers are educated people. Mass of people, they are not customers in the medical shop. You'll find it. They are not so much diseased. In every gentleman's house, modern, you'll find so many bottles of medicine. But you won't find such medical bottles in any house of less educated persons. They are not so diseased.
So this is one of the items. If you want to advance in spiritual life, you must follow the regulative principles to rectify your mistakes in the past life and this present life. Without being freed from all contamination nobody can understand God. That is not possible. Bhagavad-gītā says, yeṣāṁ anta gataṁ pāpaṁ: "One who has become completely freed from all kinds of sinful reaction . . ." Yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām, "Persons who are engaged in pious activities only," te, "such person," te dvandva-moha-nirmuktā. (BG 7.28).
This life, the material life, is dvandva. Dvandva means fighting or quarreling. Every one of us has got nature for fighting with others unnecessarily. Even some people come here with a spirit of fighting with me. So this is called dvandva. And moha. How this fighting spirit becomes developed? On account of illusion. What is that illusion?
Accepting this body as self. So if one is contaminated by sinful activity—if he is in illusion, how he . . . illusion of accepting this body as self—what is the meaning of their self-realization? He's illusioned. He'll keep himself in all kinds of contaminated life, and artificially he thinks that by some kind of mystic meditation he'll be all right. This is going on.
No. One must follow. Meditation, yogic meditation, is also possible when there is yama, niyama, āsana, praṇāyāma—the eight principles of yoga system. And nobody follows the eight principles of yoga system, and simply sitting down and meditating, that will not help. The first two steps are yama, niyama, then āsana, then praṇāyāma, then pratyāhāra, then dhyāna, then dhāraṇā, then samādhi. These are explained in the yogic śāstra or Bhagavad-gītā.
So this man, although born of a Brahmin father . . . Now, here it is said that naṣṭa-sadācāra. Although he is born of a Brahmin father, his ācāra, his dealings for advancing in spiritual life . . . A Brahmin is expected to be truthful, to be self-controlled, to be fully cognizant of spiritual life, practical application in life, jñānam, vijñānam, āstikyam, to have complete faith in the statement of the śāstras. That is . . . that is called āstikyam.
We, according to our Vedic system, we do not accept any other system of religion, because we consider them nāstika. That is the primary principle. Nāstika means one who does not believe in the Vedas. He is called nāstika. Not that he does not believe in God. One may believe in God, but one who does not believe in the Vedic literature, he is called nāstika. Veda na manīyā bauddha haila nāstika. Lord Buddha, although he is accepted as incarnation of God, but because he defied the Vedic principles it is said, nindasi yajña-vidher ahaha śruti-jātaṁ (Śrī Daśāvatāra Stotra 7).
Lord Buddha criticized the, I mean to say, sacrificial ceremonies, because in the sacrificial ceremonies sometimes there is recommendation of killing an animal. But he was preaching nonviolence. So he criticized even the sacrifice in yajña. He criticized. Nindasi . . . but a Vaiṣṇava is praying, "My dear Lord, You are defying the Vedic principles."
He knows why the Lord is now defying the Vedic principles; therefore he is devotee. In spite of Lord Buddha's defying the Vedic principles, a devotee is offering him obeisances: keśava dhṛta-buddha-śarīra jaya jagadīśa hare. He knows the Lord, how He is playing, how He is bewildering the atheistic class of men.
The atheistic class of men did not believe in God. Lord Buddha says: "Yes, you don't require to believe in God. There is no God. But you feel yourself that when you are attacked with violence you feel pain. Why should you offer to others?" Because his mission was to stop animal killing. Sadaya-hṛdaya-darṣita-paśu-ghātam.
The Supreme Lord became too much compassionate when he saw that people are unnecessarily killing animals, as it is going on still. Instead of . . . at least those who are claiming Buddhist, they are killing animals. Hmm? Bruce, is it not? Yes. But in the Buddhist religion there is no sanction for killing animals. Yes?
Guest (2): . . . (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: (Hindi: . . . (indistinct) . . . Why should I say something?) Muhammad, he also did not believe in the Vedic literature. But according to Vedic literature, anyone who does not believe in the Vedic literature, he is nāstika. Just like the Muhammadans, they say, "Anyone who does not believe in Koran, he is kafir." The Christians say: "Anyone who does not believe in the Bible, they are heathens." That is there everywhere. Similarly, Lord Caitanya said that veda na manīyā bauddha haila nāstika.
He is giving the definition, because we have to follow the great personalities, great ācāryas. That is our process. We do not make any research, or we do not make any statement made by us. We simply accept the injunctions given by great ācāryas. Ācāryopāsanam. That is the process of Vedic system. Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12).
One must approach a spiritual master and learn from him. So whatever spiritual master says, that is accepted. Sādhu guru śāstra vākya. Real evidence is, it must be stated in the scriptures, it must be explained by the spiritual master or saintly persons. That is evidence.
Guest (3): Śastra-vākya-pramāṇa.
Prabhupāda: Śāstra-vākya-pramāṇa. And it should be known through the spiritual master. Just like nowadays Bhagavad-gītā is being interpreted in so many foolish ways, because they do not accept explanation from the authority. They become themselves authorities. Therefore misused. That is not explanation. Somebody is explaining that Kurukṣetra means this body, pañca-pāṇḍava means the senses. These are all nonsense. You have to accept Bhagavad-gītā as it is.
When you cannot understand, you should get it explained by your spiritual master. Therefore one has to accept a spiritual master to understand. Tad-vijnanārtham. In order to understand that transcendental science one must approach the bona fide spiritual master. That is injunction.
So here it is said that kānyakubje dvijaḥ. Dvijaḥ means he was offered the sacred thread. That means he was born in a Brahmin family. Janmanā jāyate śūdraḥ. Everyone is born a śūdra, a foolish. Sudra means a foolish man who simply laments. That is the real meaning of śūdra. Anyone who has no intelligence, he is śūdra. We also generally say gadāh, less intelligent.
So brāhmins, kṣatriyas, vaiśyas, they are called higher caste. According to their . . . Brahmin, first class, because his intelligence is first class. Kṣatriya, his intelligence is second class. Vaiśya, his intelligence is third class. And śūdra means fourth class. And less than śūdra, they are called pañcama, caṇḍāla. They are accepted as animals, those who are less than śūdra. This is the Vedic system.
Now here it is said that this Ajāmila, dvija . . . Dvija means he was properly initiated, second birth. First birth by father, mother, is śūdra. Anyone, even if he is born in a Brahmin family, the natural birth is considered as śūdra. But if there is garbhādhāna-saṁskāra, then he's accepted as born Brahmin. Born Brahmin. Still, one is born Brahmin, he has to undergo the saṁskāras.
So our this . . . Now it is known as Hindu society, although the "Hindu" word is given by the Muhammadans. It is called sanātana-dharma, or varṇāśrama society, who very strictly follow the four divisions, social divisions, of varṇa—brāhmin, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra—and four division of spiritual life—brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha and sannyāsa. So our . . . the Vedic system is called varṇāśrama.
Varṇa means this social order, and āśrama means spiritual division. Therefore those who are following strictly the Vedic principle, that family life is called gṛhastha āśrama. Āśrama. Whenever you add this word āśrama there is spiritual significance.
So all the division—brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha and sannyāsa—they are known as āśrama. Anyone can understand āśrama. As soon as there is āśrama, that means "Here some men, saintly person, spiritually advanced person, lives." That is āśrama. So that āśrama, when a student follows the regulative principles, he is supposed to be situated in brahmacārī āśrama. A householder living with family—husband, wife, children—if they are following strictly the regulative principles: gṛhastha āśrama. Similarly, retired life, if he is following the regulative principles: the vānaprastha āśrama.
Similarly, a renounced life, sannyāsa, if he is following the regulative principles, that is sannyāsa āśrama. Not that imitating somebody, I put on a saffron dress and I become a sannyāsī and by begging I live. This has killed the whole Hindu society or the sanātana-dharma society. Unqualified persons, they do not know the regulative principles, but for solution of economic problem they dress them. This is Kali-yuga. They will pass on simply by the dress, without any knowledge.
So here also, although Ajāmila was born of a Brahmin father and he was strictly following the regulative principles of a Brahmin—that will be stated—but he fell. He fell in love with a prostitute, and therefore his characters were lost. Naṣṭa-sadācāraḥ. The reason is, why? Dāsyāḥ saṁsarga-dūṣitaḥ. Because he associated with a prostitute, therefore his all regulative principles became lost. And as soon as you are lost of regulative principles, then you take to all kinds of sinful activities. The regulative principles will keep you on the standard of life. If you give it up, then immediately you fall down, māyā.
So this man, Ajāmila, because he was durācāra, naṣṭa-sadācāra, lost of all regulative principles on account of associating with a prostitute, then, although he was born of a Brahmin family, he became . . . his livelihood was juha, bandy-akṣaiḥ, cheating and stealing. Bandy-akṣaiḥ kaitavaiś cauryaiḥ. Cauryaiḥ means stealing. Garhitāṁ vṛttim āsthitaḥ. This kind of profession is garhitā. Garhitā means . . . hitā means beneficial. But this profession is garhitā, because it is not beneficial. Ultimately he will be punished, either by the king's law or by the God's law.
I can escape the king's law by doing something which is abominable but I cannot escape God's law. That is not possible. Therefore, although he is thinking that "Now I am cheating this person," or "I am stealing and getting some profit," that is not good for him. Just like a man is killing some man, another man. So that is not good for him, because as soon as he will be arrested he'll be hanged. So they think that "I am cheating the state, I am cheating God, and I can go on gratifying my senses by all these activities," but that is stated in the śāstra as garhitā. Garhitā means "it is not beneficial for you."
Na sādhu mānye yato ātmano 'yam. In another place it is said, "These kinds of activities, vikarma, is not good ultimately." Na sādhu mānye yato ātmano 'yam asann api kleśada āsa dehaḥ (SB 5.5.4). Although ātmā, the self, is different from this body—that is the first lesson in spiritual life—still, this body, although temporary, but as soon as you accept this material body you will have to suffer according to the body. If you get a dog's body you suffer according to that. If you get a man's body . . . suffering will be there, more or less, as soon as you get this material body.
Therefore Ṛṣabhadeva said, na sādhu mānye: "You are acting abominable. It is not good, because you are already suffering in this body." Otherwise why you are stealing? You are in want of money. You are suffering. Therefore necessity has now law. Therefore you are accepting. Even you know that stealing is bad, still, you are accepting it, because that is a suffering. So for some of your activities in the past life you are now suffering, and if you go on, continuing committing this nonsense, then you will again . . . you will have to again accept a body and you'll suffer. Therefore garhitāṁ.
There are so many things to know, but these things are not discussed nowadays. Very cheap thing: "You can do whatever you like. You simply meditate and become God. That's all." So much cheating is going on everywhere, all over the world. So-called yogīs, they go, "Oh, you meditate. You are . . . And as soon as you realize, you are God, within six months." No.
Therefore in this age the only method . . . it is a concession to the fallen people of this world, this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. They'll not be able to follow all the regulative principles; therefore they must commit all kinds of abominable activities. Under the circumstances the śāstra or God has given a concession that you simply chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and gradually you will be elevated to the highest position of spiritual life. Other things you cannot follow. You are already fallen. So you take to this process of chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra without any offense.
And in order to save yourself from the offenses, a little austerity, that you cannot have illicit sex life. Why should you have illicit sex life? Everyone's need is sex life. Āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithunam (Hitopadeśa). These are the bodily needs. So śāstra has sanctioned, "All right. You can live peacefully by married life and have sex life for children, good children." That is allowed. But why should you have illicit sex life? What is this? Irresponsible life. "I shall not take responsibility of family life, and I shall go on as so-called bachelor and have illicit life." But that is not good. That is garhitāṁ. Na sādhu mānye: "This is not good." This is the advice of Vedic literature.
Ultimately you'll suffer. You are thinking at the present moment that you are avoiding suffering, because family life is very responsible life. So if you think that family life is responsible, yes, it is responsible life. If you don't take, if you cannot take the responsibility, then remain as a brahmacārī. Why should you marry? Yes. If you practice brahmācārya, then you become free, seventy-five percent freedom immediately.
But you do not want to undergo the austerities of a brahmacārī, and still you want to remain as an unmarried man. Everywhere in the world it is going on. This is increasing. That is stated here, sadācāra. Naṣṭa-sadācāro dāsyāḥ saṁsarga-dūṣitaḥ. The illicit connection with man and woman will certainly make him abominable, fallen down to this abominable life.
I . . . when I was . . . in my younger days, when I was in business, so I was to take agency one of big company, Smith's Transit Company. So they had to . . . I had to give some guarantee of my honesty. So in that program the question was whether married or unmarried. Because unmarried man mostly become dishonest. So that inquiry was there, "Whether he is married?"
Married man cannot be dishonest, because he has got responsibility. If he is arrested, he will be insulted in his family. His family members will be in difficulty. Therefore he does not commit dishonesty very easily unless it is absolutely . . . but that should not be done. But unmarried man, because he has got no responsibility, he commits all kinds of sinful activity. That's a fact.
Therefore in our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement we do not allow such illicit sex life. No. You must get yourself married. And practically, we are seeing, that is very effective and that is going on nicely.
All right. (Hindi: Where are you all coming from?)
Guest (4): (indistinct) . . . Yesterday I had a talk with Bhagavati Hema.
Guest (4): She told me to come for an interview . . . (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Oh. So your interview is finished?
Guest (4): I have got most of my queries and answers, but they remain some.
Prabhupāda: So you can inquire. But sometimes wrong report is published.
Guest (4): People releases wrong report. I am a responsible man, sir.
Prabhupāda: Yes, but some irresponsible report is published in that paper, that "Bhaktivedanta Swami says that Kṛṣṇa is everything and nothing." That . . .
Guest (4): The very reading was abominable.
Prabhupāda: That's it.
Guest: . . . (indistinct)
Guest (4): I really couldn't believe it.
Prabhupāda: No, in the reading matter he said that, "He was trained by his father to worship Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa, to observe Rathayātrā, and he was taught mṛdaṅga." These are all true. But anyone who worships Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa and who follows the Hindu ceremonies, Rathayātrā, how he can say that "Hinduism nothing"? Just see how rascaldom. This is contradiction.
Guest (4): Mahārāja, there is reason for that. Because that paper, the managing director or the owner of that press is a Jain. And the Jains have a natural antipathy towards the . . . Mahajanas?
Prabhupāda: Oh, just see. So how biased man can report? So therefore we are avoiding reports.
Guest (4): . . . (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: No, tape may be. But he also taped, that man. But he has misrepresented.
Guest (4): I should like to ask one question . . . (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: All right, you can ask. But kindly publish rightly. Don't . . .
Guest (4): Yes, yes.
Guest (5): (indistinct) . . . (break)
Prabhupāda: Still you want to inquire from her?
Guest (4): From the entire business.
Prabhupāda: So you can inquire from me. In my presence, you can inquire from me. Because after all, they are my students; they may not be able to reply thoroughly. So if you have got any inquiries, you can ask from me.
Guest (4): Yes. Yes. Mahārāja, I am a teacher of Sanskrit and English in one of the higher secondary schools here, and I am very much interested in . . .
Prabhupāda: So you join us. Simply lip sympathy will not do. Just like these boys and girls, they have joined wholeheartedly. So I do not find any Indians.
Guest (4): I am ready to join, but for my family liabilities. Is there is some . . .?
Prabhupāda: So you can join. You are family man, so it is not that we have no family men. We have got many family men. Now they are all family. These girls, they have got a husband. And some of them, they are living separately. Just like one of my students, Professor Howard Wheeler. He is married man. He is living separately. Not separately; he is also conducting our one establishment, New Vrindaban. So it is not that one has to live with us. He can live separately also, but his whole life is dedicated to Kṛṣṇa. That is wanted.
Guest (4): I would like to live with you and tour with you.
Prabhupāda: So why not come and live and tour with me? Who forbids you? But it is not possible to pay anything for your family expenditure. That is difficulty. We cannot pay anything, but you can live with your family. That responsibility you can take. But I cannot pay you. That's not possible. Because we are maintaining by collecting alms. In that case it is not possible to pay something.
There is . . . it is selling all over Europe. (Hindi: Yes, there is Hindi also. Now I don’t have . . . (indistinct) . . .)
Guest (4): Mahārāja, could you employ me in some kind of . . . in your publishing?
Prabhupāda: Yes, employ, I can employ in any way. But there is no payment.
Guest (4): I am M.A. in English, M.A. in Hindi. I am trying to devote myself to this work . . .
Prabhupāda: So please come.
Guest (4): But for my family liabilities . . .
Prabhupāda: What amount you want for your family, minimum?
Guest (4): Five hundred a month.
Prabhupāda: That is not possible. Yes, you require five hundred. I know that. That is not much. To maintain a family nowadays, five hundred rupees is not much, but where is the money? How can I pay?
Guest (4): (chuckles) I would be a very good asset to your publications work.
Prabhupāda: That I know. You are qualified, educated boy. You can do it. But one thing I can do, that you can live with your family, just like they are living. That I can arrange. And whatever food we can provide you have to accept. We can . . . we can arrange for the education of your children also, everything. But we cannot pay anything.
That is not possible. We can take charge of the husband and wife. We can take charge of your children. But it is not possible to pay. And besides that, when there is question of payment the service is not good, because the payment means he is serving the money; he is not serving the cause.
Devotee: (indistinct) . . . (tape of kīrtana plays for a second)
Guest (4): His old mother listens to these chantings. (break) . . . (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: No, no. He has appeared to establish dharma. So what is the dharma according . . .
Guest (4): Śāstra-dharma. Śāstra means Ārya-samājī-pratiṣṭhā . . .
Prabhupāda: So what is that śāstra veda dharma?
Guest (4): Vedic dharma.
Prabhupāda: So what is that? Explain it practically.
Guest (4): Yama, niyama, samādhi, dhyāna . . .
Prabhupāda: No, that is the process. So what is the end of dharma?
Guest (4): Self-realization.
Prabhupāda: What is that self?
Guest (4): That is to be realized. (laughter)
Prabhupāda: This is going on. One has no idea what is dharma, what is the end, but he becomes, "Oh, I have appeared for establishing dharma." And when he is asked, "What is that dharma?" "It is to be realized." Then what you have realized that you are preaching dharma?
Guest (4): Sadācāra . . .
Prabhupāda: Sadācāra is the means. Sadācāra is not the end.
Guest (4): Can I know as to what made these young people want to leave the affluent Western society and join this . . .
Prabhupāda: Because they are sincere, seeking after . . .
Guest (4): Pardon, sir?
Prabhupāda: They are sincere, sincerely seeking after. Their material business is finished, because they have enjoyed enough of material things. Now there is spiritual inquiry. That is natural. When our material necessities are complete, we enjoy; then next stage is spiritual hankering. And that is explained in the Vedānta-sūtra, athāto brahma jijñāsā.
After finishing karma-kāṇḍīya life . . . karma-kāṇḍīya life means you do pious activities and enjoy life. That is called karma-kāṇḍīya. So . . . but the fact is that even you get your birth in a very rich family, you cannot avoid the sufferings of this material nature.
Just like yesterday we had an interview with Holkar, His Highness Holkar, the old gentleman. So he was a king. He has got very beautiful wife, very beautiful family, very palatial building, but he is not happy, we saw. So the foolish people, they do not know that in this material life there is no happiness. They hanker after these palatial buildings, the motorcars, the bank balance, and so on, so on.
Therefore those who have enjoyed all these things but have not become happy, there is another inquiry: "How to become happy?" Say America, they have enjoyed material life. Their children have enjoyed material life to the fullest extent. But they are not happy. Therefore they have come to this spiritual life.
Guest (4): Last night in your learned discourse you said that you're supposed to found a temple in this city.
Guest (4): But you preach this Vedic mārga. Don't you think that instead of building a temple, āśramas in this brahmacārī model would be . . .
Prabhupāda: Yes. And without temple, the brahmacārīs will be vyabhicāris. (laughter)
Guest (4): That āśrama becomes a temple.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that we . . . wherever we have got a center we have got a temple, and at the same time teaching. These two things must go parallel. If simply dry teachings go on and there is no temple worship, then gradually he will glide down to vyabhicāri instead of brahmacārī.
Guest (4): Besides the chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa and arousing this Kṛṣṇa consciousness in the people, what else are you doing to establish the way . . .?
Prabhupāda: That you have seen in this morning. We are teaching every day the śāstra. They are not simply chanting. Their chanting is based on understanding. Therefore they are sticking.
Guest (4): Mahārāja, the educational system of this country has so much deteriorated. I have been studying. I see young people of different colleges, boys and girls taking to LSD even in this city and doing to all sorts of nonsense. What is the best . . .?
Prabhupāda: That I was explaining. As soon as there is indulgence illicit sex life, all bad qualification will come. That I was explaining.
Guest (4): And Mahārāja, what are your impressions of the youth of this country?
Prabhupāda: I have no estimation of "this country" or "that country." I know everywhere, because spiritual education is lacking, everywhere the boys and girls are fallen.
Guest (4): Is secularism coming in way of this spreading spiritual education?
Prabhupāda: Secularism is a bogus thing. You see? That is an indulgence: "Whatever you like, you can do. Whatever religion you follow, that's all . . ." No. That is not good. The state should be responsible for the spiritual progress of the citizens. Now, especially in our country, we say it is Hindustan, Bhārata-varṣa. So we are not giving the bhāratīya, or Hindu, spiritual cultural education. So that's a great loss of the secular state.
Guest (4): Do you think that the present democratic system will be able to impart a spiritual education?
Guest (4): Then what system do you advocate?
Prabhupāda: Of course, so far Vedic culture is concerned, they advocated monarchy, because the one man's training, a good king guided by the brahminical culture, although it was autocratic sometimes, but because the king was very cultured there was no possibility of doing any harm to the citizens. But democracy means simply they are given the post by votes, and they may be all rascals. Then what they can think of good to the citizens?
Guest (4): Mahārāja, don't you think that monarchy . . . (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: No. That is also not possible. And therefore we are training people to be Kṛṣṇa conscious. And when the Kṛṣṇa conscious people will elect Kṛṣṇa conscious leaders, there will be peace and prosperity. And now, because the minority is Kṛṣṇa conscious, they cannot elect Kṛṣṇa conscious leaders, and therefore havoc is being played.
Guest (4): Mahārāja, do you think that the West is being Hinduized?
Prabhupāda: The "Hinduized" is a sectarian view. We are not . . .
Guest (4): I mean this, being brought up on sanātana culture.
Prabhupāda: Vedic ways. Yes. You can . . . the perfect word is "Vedic civilization."
Guest (4): Vedic civilization.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is original civilization. Out of Vedic civilization there are so many outcome now, but if you go originally to the Vedic civilization, that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. In the Bhagavad-gītā you will find the word is vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam (BG 15.15). That means to follow the Vedic way of life means to become Kṛṣṇa conscious.
Guest (5): . . . (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Yes, Vedic way means they are following principles, regulative principles.
Guest (5): So what principle?
Prabhupāda: That I was explaining. That is a big principle. But it has been shortened, shortened in this age.
- harer nāma harer nāma harer nāmaiva kevalam
- kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva nāsty eva gatir anyathā
- (CC Adi 17.21)
In the Kali-yuga you cannot reform the whole population by any other means except this harer nāma. Therefore we are introducing Hare Kṛṣṇa movement everywhere.
Guest (4): Mahārāja, do the Western and Eastern societies respond differently to this call?
Prabhupāda: No. You cannot say that. Two plus two equal to four everywhere, East and West. There is no difference, East and West. It is scientific. It is vijñaṇa. So when you call of . . . talk of science, there is no difference of understanding in the East and West. The same thing is understood.
Guest (4): Mahārāja (Hindi: How the Varnāśrama-dharma can be established ? . . . (indistinct) . . .)
Prabhupāda: Yes. Varnāśrama-dharma . . . that is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā: cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Qualified. Therefore we want qualified Brahmins, qualified kṣatriyas. At the present moment, without being qualified they are passing on as Brahmin, kṣatriya. That is not varṇāśrama. Without being qualified they are all śūdras, all caṇḍālas. But when they are properly trained and qualified, then it is varṇāśrama, real varṇāśrama.
Guest (4): Where are they to be trained, then? How are they . . .
Prabhupāda: That we are proposing. When we open a center we shall train anyone. It doesn't matter whether he is born in a śūdra family or Brahmin family. Just like they are born in a different family other than Brahmin, but they are now Brahmin, because after being trained up.
Guest (4): (indistinct) . . . regard, you said that monarchy and democracy, both are systems which cannot help this cause. Then . . .
Prabhupāda: No, why cannot help? If . . . monarchy means the king was properly trained up. Similarly, in the democracy, if people are properly trained up, then they will vote for nice men and there will be nice government. Now, because the people are not trained, they are practically asses. The votes of the asses, what has the meaning? If the majority are asses, then one ass will be elected. That's all. So when the executive head is an ass, what benefit he can do to the people?
Guest (5): I see.
Guest (4): Mahārāja, you said that you had been misrepresented in that report which appeared yesterday in one of the dailies of the cities.
Guest (4): How could you like to mend your statement?
Prabhupāda: My statements are clear there, but he has misstated in the heading with ulterior purpose.
Guest (4): . . . (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Young men of cities, they may come to me and be trained up in the spiritual life, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. (Hindi: I will keep as much as I can . . .) So long you'll ask me to keep there, provided you are serious of taking training from me . . .
Guest (4): I am very much serious.
Prabhupāda: Then you are welcome. I am asking young men like you to come and join me.
Guest (5): . . . (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Aiye. Yes. I am speaking in English because my students, they cannot understand Hindi. But if educated young boys like you come, they will be also able to understand English, so there will be no difficulty.
Guest (4): Thank you, Mahārāja.
Prabhupāda: Thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (aside) Replay little. No, replay. I will . . . (break) . . . Please try to understand the philosophy. Thank you. Yes. (Hindi: (indistinct) . . . It has already reached here . . . (indistinct) . . .) So you are welcome. You come. Live with us with your family. We take charge of you. But if you ask some salary, that is not possible. That is not possible.
Guest (4): I have my sisters and my mother and father to support.
Prabhupāda: So let them come, all, and live with me . . . (indistinct) . . . That's nice. (Hindi: So whatever responsibility is there, that should be performed.) That I can take. But if you want money, that is not possible.
Guest (5): No, I don't want money.
Prabhupāda: Then you come with your whole family. (Hindi: We are going to offer prasadam to you. Yes we will give everything . . . (indistinct) . . .) (break)
Guest (4): But still one keeps . . . (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Then don't be dependent. Be dependent on Kṛṣṇa. To live here means to become dependent on Kṛṣṇa. That is there. You have to become dependent—either to your master or to your boss or to your brother or to somebody else. But if you become dependent on Kṛṣṇa, your whole problem is solved. Yes. Alright, Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Haṁsadūta: Maybe you would like to see the books that His Divine Grace has published? . . . (indistinct) . . . (break)
Prabhupāda: (Hindi: Seriously everyone should take part in this movement.) Don't consider about money . . . (indistinct) . . . did not care for the family. For political emancipation they sacrificed so much.
Guest (5): Perhaps they are the people, the older followers of . . .
Prabhupāda: Not always these people. Not all. (Hindi: To fill your belly, this is only Maya. God fills everyone's belly, even for a dog. It is not a problem to fill your belly.) We have created this problem. (Hindi: There is no problem at all to fill your belly.) (break) You'll get your bread, bara, and somebody will fill up your belly. (Hindi: (indistinct) . . . We don't know that . . . (indistinct) . . .) It is not possible. (Hindi: God gives to everyone.)
- nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām
- eko bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān
- (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13)
These are Vedic injunctions. You know all this; then why don't you believe in this? (Hindi . . . (indistinct) . . . You need training for this only . . . (indistinct) . . . We don’t really care. The whole world . . .) (break) So it is coming? (Hindi: It is not like that God gives to food to everyone but not me . . . (indistinct) . . . is it possible?) (break) We must have faith. Adau śraddhā . . . (indistinct) . . . You should be prepared, even there is difficulty. Just like when I took sannyāsa I gave up my family life. In the beginning there was so much difficulty. I was living alone. But I never cared for it. Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Guest (6): Swāmījī, suppose one wants to become Life Member, they can't pay whole money in one charge. They want to pay in installments.
Prabhupāda: That's nice. We shall accept. Oh, yes.
Guest (6): They told me that it is impossible for them to pay whole sum.
Prabhupāda: That doesn't matter. Let him pay by . . .
Guest (6): They are ready to pay two or three installments.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. It is accepted. Please bring them.
Guest (6): One man, that Bengali person, he is coming. He wants to become member but he is telling that "I am unable to pay whole . . ."
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. That doesn't matter. Let him pay by installments.
Guest (6): I told him I will ask you, whether you are ready or not . . . (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: (Hindi: So please bring them.)
Guest (6): He is coming daily, that man.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Mr. Chakravarti or Chatterjee. Yes.
Guest (6): Chatterjee. He is scared of . . . (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: He is good boy. Yes. No. He had the cap on his head, sweater, cap and pant.
Guest (6): Yesterday he was asking me to ask you . . . (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Where is my stick? Give me a glass of water. (break)
Guest (6): . . . (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Then there is no problem. You come and join me. If you want to . . .
Guest (6): Let me get degree.
Prabhupāda: You get your degree. That's all right. Finish your education. If I'll be able to open a center, nice center, I shall call so many people, "Come and live with me and be trained up." I am just writing one advertisement. We shall have to publish it. Just read it.
Haṁsadūta: "Wanted, qualified Brahmins for preaching Bhagavad-gītā all over the world. (laughter) Candidates accepted without any discrimination of caste and creed. Apply ISKCON."
Yamunā: Oh, ho, ho, Prabhupāda!
Haṁsadūta: "Life Member can send any member of his family for being trained up as qualified brāhmin who can preach Bhagavad-gītā as it is all over the world." You're going to put this in the newspaper?
Prabhupāda: Huh? Yes.
Haṁsadūta: Oh, that will be nice.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughter)
Yamunā: Oh, that's a wonderful notice, Prabhupāda. It's so wonderful.
Prabhupāda: We have to preach all over the world. We require so many men, so many boys, girls, men we want.
Haṁsadūta: I should send this to the GBC members in the West, and they should put ads in the paper.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Let us have application.
Haṁsadūta: Should I copy it down?
Prabhupāda: Yes, you take it. You take it. Type it.
Himāvatī: Prabhupāda, in Calcutta Madhudviṣa advertised like that at one meeting, and the next day a man came . . .
Prabhupāda: Only one man?
Haṁsadūta: Two men came.
Himāvatī: With his six children and his wife, they were prepared, "Let us live here. We will see."
Himāvatī: And another old man that was so old that he was ready to die. (laughter)
Prabhupāda: Then you write "young men." No, even old man, there is no question. That we can test, whether he is able, he is a qualified Brahmin. First of all he is qualified Brahmin.
Himāvatī: You were going to Peruda that day, so we said, "When we return, then you come and join us." But when we returned they didn't come. They changed their mind.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They . . . they cannot. They cannot. Only young men can join. Old men cannot join. (Hindi: What is your name?)
Guest (6): Ashoka Kumar.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. I remember. So please, after finishing your education you come and join this great movement. They are joining Communist movement, this movement, that movement. Why not a real, genuine movement for the welfare of the whole?
Guest (6): I am not joining any . . .
Prabhupāda: No, I mean to say . . .
Guest (6): I want to join . . .
Prabhupāda: Generally they join. Generally they join.
Guest (6): My brother also agrees to stay with you.
Prabhupāda: Oh, that's nice.
Guest (6): From today we are ready to join you.
Prabhupāda: No, you finish your education. That will be a good qualification.
Guest (6): Why not you are paying a visit in Lakhpur. There is a very big Gītā Mandir.
Prabhupāda: Everywhere there is Gītā Mandir. Here there is also big Gītā Mandir.
Guest (6): No, there . . . here they have mixture of many gods. Not like that. There is only one Gītā, and all, the whole temple, belongs to Gītā and nothing else.
Prabhupāda: So if they invite, I can go. Why don't you ask them to invite us? Then we can go immediately.
Guest (6): Whole temple there is a pracāra(?) Gītā . . . (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: But how many preachers they have produced?
Guest (6): You must be knowing that Vidyananda, Swami Vidyananda . . . (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Oh, he's a great nonsense.
Guest (6): Oh, no.
Prabhupāda: I know.
Guest (6): He has constructed that from Gujarat. He's a Gujārati.
Guest (6): He constructed a temple there.
Prabhupāda: I have seen in Ahmedabad his temple. He established one deity, a woman shape, and there is no Kṛṣṇa. "Gītā." "Gītā" means a woman. So I don't think he has full understanding of Gītā. He has money; he has spent. That's all. But he does not understand Gītā. Gītā means unless one takes Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead he does not understand anything of Gītā. That is the test.
He may advertise himself as scholar or this or that, but our only test is whether he accepts Kṛṣṇa the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). That is the test. Is that person accepting Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead? He himself accepts that, "I am God." Is it not? Therefore he's a foolish. He is squandering money, public money. That's all. That is his business. He might have some qualification to collect money, but he does not know what is Kṛṣṇa.
Guest (6): He's all . . . (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: But I think he is dead.
Guest (6): He is dead now or he . . . Sadhanananda is dead, Swami Sadhananda.
Prabhupāda: I know. So that is the test. That is the test. Therefore it is a revolutionary movement. Even so-called followers of Gītā, they will be caught up by this movement as rascals. Because the real purpose of Gītā they do not know. Real purpose of Gītā is to know Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That you will find in the Bhagavad-gītā: sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye yan māṁ vadasi madhava (BG 10.14). And Arjuna says that "Whatever You have said, they're all right, and I accept them in toto, without any revision."
So Kṛṣṇa says that, "I am the Supreme Personality of Godhead." One who does not understand Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Person, what he has read Gītā? He is useless. Śrama eva hi kevalam (SB 1.2.8). Simply has labored. That's all. That is the test. Don't you agree to this point? So anyone who does not accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he has no knowledge of Gītā. He immediately becomes foolish. That is our test. So Muktānanda, what do you think?
Muktānanda: Yes, Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the test, whether he has understood. In the Seventh Chapter:
- mayy āsakta-manāḥ pārtha
- yogaṁ yuñjan mad-āśrayaḥ
- asaṁśayaṁ samagraṁ māṁ
- yathā jñāsyasi tac chṛṇu
- (BG 7.1)
"Anyone . . . how one simply by concentrating his mind upon Me," mayy āsakta, "with āsakti . . ." Āsakti means attachment, love. Mayy āsakta-manāḥ: mind attached to Kṛṣṇa in love. Yogaṁ yuñjan mad-āśrayaḥ: and performing the bhakti-yoga, mad-āśrayaḥ, under the disciplinary action by a bona fide spiritual master, mad-āśrayaḥ. Asaṁśayaṁ samagraṁ māṁ: "Then he can understand without any doubt and fully what I am."
That means one who has not understood Bhagavad-gītā . . . Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he has not found the yoga properly. And why? That is mad-āśrayaḥ: he does not follow the disciplic succession. Mad āśrayaḥ. And in the beginning, in Fourth Chapter it is said, evaṁ paramparā-prāptam (BG 4.2).
So these foolish persons, they do not follow all these principles; therefore they cannot understand Bhagavad-gītā. Anyone. We say . . . It may appear to be very strong word, but that's a fact. (Hindi: If someone says a thief, "This person is a thief".) That's a strong word, that's all right, but he's a thief . . . (indistinct) . . . Strong language used here. (Hindi: What is there to talk to a thief . . . (indistinct) . . . Isn't that right?)
Guest (6): (indistinct) . . . This movement, I have intent only in Kṛṣṇa, not in any other way.
Prabhupāda: So that is our movement. Wherever we go, we find out sincere persons, immediately attract. Yes. But if he's not sincere, we cannot attract. If he's sincere, immediately attracted. That is the value of this movement. All my students, they were attracted only because they were sincere. Anyone sincere in seeking after the Absolute Truth will be attracted.
Guest (6): I am not getting . . . (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Ekāgra. Ekāgra. Yogaṁ yuñjan mad-āśrayaḥ, therefore it is said. "One has to perform this bhakti-yoga under My representative." Mad-āśrayaḥ.
Guest (6): I am very grateful to you.
Prabhupāda: And there is Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura Prārthanā. Āśraya laiyā bhaje, kṛṣṇa nāhi tare tyāge: "One who takes āśraya, shelter of a devotee, Kṛṣṇa does not give him up. Kṛṣṇa accepts him." Yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ . . . because if that person who is giving shelter, if he's pleased, Kṛṣṇa is immediately . . . if he recommends a fool, "Oh, Kṛṣṇa, here is a devotee," Kṛṣṇa will accept immediately.
It doesn't matter whether he's a fool or rascal. Because he is recommended by representative, he will be accepted. Yasya pra . . . this is the meaning of yasya prasādad bhagavat-pra . . . without his recommendation there is no entry in Kṛṣṇa's kingdom. Yasya-prasādad na gatiḥ kuto 'pi. If he displeases Kṛṣṇa's representative, he has no entrance to the Kṛṣṇa's kingdom, however learned he may be or whatever he may be. Immediately rejected.
In a business office, suppose a secretary is there. A clerk does not accept the order of the secretary, immediately he should be dismissed. In my personal experience, when I was young manager in a big chemical concern, one correspondent clerk, he disobeyed me. I reported to the head boss. He immediately came and he said, "Get out immediately from the office." And he wanted to plead in so many ways.
Said, "No, I don't want. If you don't go out, then I shall call my doorman. He will forcibly get you out. Get out." I was sorry, because this man is dismissed immediately, but he took. Disobedient . . . "Obedience is first discipline." So if Kṛṣṇa's representative is disobeyed—"Get out immediately." Kṛṣṇa is very strict.
Guest (6): (indistinct) . . . From tomorrow, he was not able to get . . . (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just see. Yes. Therefore in our system, vaiṣṇavāparādha is the greatest offense, to commit offense at the lotus feet of a Vaiṣṇava, and spiritual master is to be considered the first Vaiṣṇava. If there is aparādha, that is great . . . greatest offense. That will spoil the whole spiritual life. These are stated in Caitanya-caritāmṛta. In Teachings of Lord Caitanya you'll find.
Guest (6): In yesterday's newspaper I read that somebody donated some land to you . . . (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Yes. No. He has proposed to donate; not he has done. Where you learned this?
Guest (6): In that . . . (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Yes, somebody has promised. Somebody has promised.
Guest (6): And it will . . . (indistinct) . . . Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa mandir, I will possibly able to get . . . (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Yes, why not?
Guest (6): Swāmījī, you are here . . . (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: But if somebody gives me land I may go on staying there.
Guest (6): No, no, father and mother, they are forcing me to leave you all in my home.
Prabhupāda: Where it is?
Guest (6): It is nearby.
Prabhupāda: Your father, mother, cannot come here?
Guest (6): They want you to come.
Revatīnandana: They've come here before.
Prabhupāda: Oh. (break) (end)
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