751005 - Morning Walk - Mauritius
Prabhupāda: ...similarly, this planet is also an island in the air. (break) These new boys, they are understanding our philosophy?
Cyavana: Yes, gradually. They are attracted.
Prabhupāda: Hmm? You are reading books?
Indian boy (1): Yes.
Prabhupāda: That's nice.
Cyavana: One boy last night, he said he was ready to move into our āśrama.
Prabhupāda: Let him.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Let him move. But he is going to cut his hair?
Cyavana: He said yes. He agreed. (break) (to boys:) Is that one of you who said you were ready? (break)
Prabhupāda: ...nice. Here is... This is the qualification.
(break) ...island can be developed in a very nice piece of country if the leaders are intelligent.
Cyavana: They are very interested in our philosophy.
Prabhupāda: The leaders?
Prabhupāda: So why do they not accept it?
Cyavana: Gradually they will. They are attracted. They will accept. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...only here I have seen. All the islands on the Pacific and Indian Ocean are all potential. Philippines, very... The Philippine boys, I saw, very nice. They are not guided.
Cyavana: Fiji also.
Prabhupāda: Fiji. Fiji also. Fiji, mostly Indian, but the original Fiji Fijians, they are also very nice.
Cyavana: What about Bali? There are also many...
Prabhupāda: Bali, there are practically Hindus. Yes. Everywhere. The soul is pure. They have been made impure by misleading.
Cyavana: All the outside influences are also here trying to make propaganda.
Prabhupāda: Just like here, this is māyā influence. These things should be stopped.
Cyavana: The Chinese come and make propaganda. The Russians come and make propaganda. The Americans come and make propaganda. They become confused what to do.
Prabhupāda: The climate is nice. There is good potential for producing food, keeping cows. Everything nice.
Cyavana: It is all volcanic. The soil here is all from volcano, volcanic soil, very rich.
Prabhupāda: Oh? Volcanic or not volcanic, pūrṇam idam (Īśopaniṣad, Invocation). When it is created by Lord, it is complete. (to boy:) You are originally from India? No.
Indian boy (2): No, Mauritius.
Indian boy (1): Our father from India.
Prabhupāda: All of you? Bihar? No.
Indian boy (1): Bihar, yes. Bihar. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...is also known as Magadha. Magadha. That is the... Candragupta and others, they were reigning in Bihar, emperor of India. Jarāsandha also belonged to Bihar. (break) ...a great scientist?
Cyavana: Yes, I studied.
Prabhupāda: How this sand is made?
Cyavana: From the rocks it is... They call it weathering. Weathering. The weather makes it ground up from the rocks. This is their theory.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Isn't it shells from the animals?
Cyavana: Some. Some from rocks, coral.
Prabhupāda: It is made from salt.
Cyavana: From salt.
Prabhupāda: It is called sodium silicate. (laughter)
Cyavana: They say this is combination of shells, coral and rocks, ground up.
Prabhupāda: No, no.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But if it's salt, Prabhupāda, our experience of salt is generally that it dissolves in water, isn't it?
Prabhupāda: Silicate there is.
Indian boy (2): Salt and silicate.
Prabhupāda: You know something of science?
Indian boy (2): Some. Chemistry.
Prabhupāda: It is melted in fire, and glass is made.
Cyavana: It becomes clear.
Prabhupāda: No, that you have to add chemicals.
Cyavana: Oh. (break)
Prabhupāda: Hawaii, on the beach side, there are many, many coconut trees, eh?
Cyavana: Many of them have been ripped up by the cyclone, pine trees and coconut trees.
Prabhupāda: In Hawaii there is no cyclone, I think. Hmm?
Harikeśa: They have a volcano on one island. There is one volcano that goes every twelve years.
Prabhupāda: Here there is any volcano, on this island?
Cyavana: Nothing left.
Indian boy (2): Only once. Once we had. The island has been created by a volcano itself. And then afterwards, they have no volcano. There are craters. (indistinct) (break)
Cyavana: ...volcano? There was a volcano here?
Indian boy (2): Yes.
Cyavana: When? Huh?
Indian boy (2): A crater, it...
Indian man (3): We are not so sure.
Cyavana: Recently it came up?
Indian man (3): No, we are not so sure, because before human settlement in Mauritius.
Indian boy (2): No, but it is... (break) ...please tell us about the creation of the earth.
Indian boy (2): Creation, how... About the creation. I have read it from Bible too, about Adam and Eve. Do you think that it's true?
Prabhupāda: What is the idea of Adam?
Indian boy (2): God has created him.
Prabhupāda: So the same process is mentioned in Vedas. God created Brahmā, and he created this universe.
Indian boy (2): All which we can see on the earth has been created by...
Indian boy (2): Brahmā. Who is Brahmā?
Prabhupāda: Brahmā is the first creature in the universe, created by God. He came from the navel.
Indian boy (2): Navel of God. Therefore, by himself he could create everything, Swāmījī?
Indian boy (2): Brahmā himself? He is only one...
Prabhupāda: Yes. He was empowered.
Indian boy (2): He was only one person.
Prabhupāda: Empowered by God. God created Brahmā, and he was empowered to create the universe.
Indian boy (2): There should not have been two people, a female and male?
Indian boy (2): There should not have been two people, a male and a female, to create everything?
Prabhupāda: Yes, male and female.
Indian boy (2): Then, apart from Brahmā, there would have been something else.
Prabhupāda: No, Brahmā created male and female.
Indian boy (2): Oh, he himself created it from...?
Prabhupāda: From his ear, from his eyes, from his..., like that. From many parts of his body.
Indian man (3): Swāmījī, there is something quite confusing.
Indian man (3): Lord Kṛṣṇa created Lord Viṣṇu, and Lord Viṣṇu in His turn created Lord Brahmā. So...
Prabhupāda: Not created; expanded. Just like one candle is burning, and you lit up another candle. So this candle is not created; it is simply power transfer, expansion. You can call it expansion. Dīpārcir eva hi daśāntaram abhyupetya (Bs. 5.46). Expansion of the light. (pause) They say it contains iodine, this ship.
Harikeśa: Contains what?
Prabhupāda: Iodine. That ship is going or coming?
Cyavana: Going. But he's sitting.
Prabhupāda: Oh, it is standing.
Cyavana: It's sitting, yes.
Indian boy (2): Swāmījī, do you think that Bible, about the Adam, Adam is Brahmā? It has been copied from the Indian philosophy to put it there in different name?
Prabhupāda: From historical point of view it is copied, because Vedas are created by Brahmā long, long, many millions, millions of years, and Bible is created two thousand years. So we have to take the original. All religious system of the world, they are taken from Vedas, from different parts. Therefore they are not complete. The age of Bible is not more than two thousand years. The age of Veda you cannot calculate—millions and millions of years.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Why is it, Prabhupāda, that in earlier parts of the Kali-yuga no one like yourself came throughout the rest of the world and preached Kṛṣṇa consciousness?
Prabhupāda: Huh? Preached? Caitanya Mahāprabhu preached. His descendant preached. Why do you say no one preached?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But throughout the rest of the world, places like Japan and Australia...
Prabhupāda: Your calculation of the world. If it is preached anywhere, that is preached on the world. It was not spread, you can say, but it was preached.
Cyavana: The seed was planted.
Harikeśa: They were saving it for you.
Prabhupāda: For you also.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I think they had their hands full with India. They had their hands full with India, all of the preachers.
Prabhupāda: Yes. What they are collecting?
Harikeśa: Crabs, I think. Crabs.
Indian man (4): Swāmījī? It is prohibited to consume..., consume flesh, meat. It's because there is soul in the body, and if we kill it, therefore we are doing a sin. I think it's because that we can't consume meat according to the Vedic literature. But what about plants, Swāmījī?
Prabhupāda: Plants also, you... They are also killed. They are also killed. But this is... Plants are killed by the order of Kṛṣṇa. Therefore you are not responsible.
Indian man (4): Therefore, if we say that we can kill some animal by the order of Kṛṣṇa...
Prabhupāda: Yes, then you are not responsible. Suppose I kill one snake by the stick. The stick is not responsible; I am responsible.
Indian man (4): When do you think that you'd know that Kṛṣṇa is responsible and not our...
Prabhupāda: You learn from the śāstra. You learn from Bhagavad-gītā what Kṛṣṇa says, and do it. Then you are not responsible for anything. Just like there is law book. If you act... (aside:) Don't keep so near. ...act according to law book, then you are not criminal. If you violate the law book, then you are criminal. Similarly, what Kṛṣṇa says, that is recorded in the śāstra, especially in the Bhagavad-gītā.
So you act what is said in the Bhagavad-gītā; then you remain free from all sinful reaction. Yajñārthāt karmaṇo 'nyatra loko yam karma-bandhanaḥ (BG 3.9). Yajñārthāt means for Kṛṣṇa. Whatever you do, that's all right. Otherwise you are become bound up by the reaction. Anyatra karma-bandhanaḥ. Karma-bandhanaḥ means you are bound up by the reaction. So therefore you have to act according to Kṛṣṇa. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. If you act differently, then you are responsible.
Indian man (4): How would you know what to consume and what not, Swāmījī?
Prabhupāda: That is stated in the śāstra. Kṛṣṇa says, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati (BG 9.26). Patram means vegetable, leaves; puṣpam, flower. In this way, whatever He says, you collect and offer to Him and take prasādam. Then you are not responsible. And if you collect for yourself even patram without offering to Kṛṣṇa, if you take, you are responsible for killing. It doesn't matter whether you kill a big animal or a small plant. You are responsible.
Just like a soldier: He kills hundreds and thousands of men and he is given gold medal. And as soon as he kills one man for his sense gratification he is hanged. Eh? Is it not? He can say, "I have killed so many men. At that time I was not hanged. I was given gold medal. How is that? (laughter) I have killed only one man. I am going to be hanged?" That is law. You cannot do anything on your own account, sense gratification. Then you are responsible. Yajñārthāt karmaṇo 'nyatra loko 'ya karma-bandhanaḥ.
Everything is stated. Read Bhagavad-gītā very thoroughly and try to understand. Then everything will be clear, how to live, how to organize society. We have to live. The same thing: we are also working, we are also eating, we are sleeping, we are also marrying—but according to Kṛṣṇa's direction. Then it is Kṛṣṇa conscious life and perfect life. And as soon as you do anything whimsically, at your will, then you are responsible. Kṛṣṇa or His representative. Kṛṣṇa is giving instruction, and His representative is explaining. In both ways Kṛṣṇa is helping. So even so much facility being offered to you, if you don't take advantage, then you are committing suicide. Ātmahā. Ātmahā. Just like the sea is now calm and quiet. If you want to go somewhere, take advantage of it. And if you start your boat while it is cyclone, then you'll be drowned.
So Kṛṣṇa has left the book of instruction, Bhagavad-gītā. It is favorable condition. And the spiritual master is the captain, and you take advantage. Your this human body is a good boat. So good boat, favorable condition, good captain—take advantage of crossing this ocean. Otherwise you are committing suicide. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). It is very difficult to cross over this ocean of nescience, but these are the favorable condition. One should take advantage of these favorable condition and cross over this ocean of nescience.
Devotee (5): Many people, they don't want to accept a captain. They want to go all alone.
Prabhupāda: Let them be drowned. Who can check them? If they do not accept good captain, let them be drowned. There is no regret for them. Let them go to hell. They are going, actually. For their dog's obstinacy they are going to hell. Adānta-gobhir viṣatāṁ tamiśram (SB 7.5.30). This is stated. Because they cannot control their senses they are going to hell.
Indian man (4): Swāmījī, is there any hell, or rather this is hell...?
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Why not? Why not?
Indian man (4): Above the world or in the world?
Prabhupāda: Huh? You know everything, where, what is where? Do you know? Then why do you ask this question? There is. There is. There is planet, hellish planet.
Indian man (4): I don't know. I have thought about this, that the hell of the pradas(?) exists only in this world itself.
Prabhupāda: Because you are the frog of the well. The frog of the well thinks, "This well is everything." And if you say, "There is Atlantic Ocean," he cannot imagine, the frog of the well. You know frog of the well?
Indian man (4): Yes, yes.
Prabhupāda: A three-feet well, and a frog is there, and he is thinking, "This is everything." And some friend comes and informs, "Oh, I have seen very big water, Atlantic." He simply imagines, "Oh? It's big? How much big? One feet more? All right, two feet? All right, three feet?" like that. So the frogs in the well, they cannot understand. You should be not a frog in the well; you should be liberal to hear from the authorities, Vedas. Then you will understand.
And if you remain a frog in the well... All these rascal scientists, they are all frog in the well. They have got little calculation of this planet, and they have no information of... There are so many millions of planets. What do they know? They cannot..., could not study even this moon planet. Wrongly study. The moon planet is above the sun planet, (sic:) 1,000,600,000 miles above. What do they know? They are thinking the moon planet is in between the earth and the... So the all wrong calculation.
Indian man (4): Swāmījī, it has been said just as we act... We take birth according to our action. So if we have done something, we must take birth according to the law of God.
Prabhupāda: You must take birth. That is a fact. You cannot avoid it. But according to your karma you have to take birth.
Indian man (4): But therefore this means that you pay what you have wrote. Yes, eh? Therefore, do you think that...
Prabhupāda: Suppose when your this shirt is torn, you have to purchase one shirt. Now, that shirt you have to purchase according to your price. If you have good price, then you get a good shirt. If you have no money, then you get a bad shirt. That's all.
Indian man (4): I wanted to say this, Swāmījī, that hell also is situated in this world itself, because where do you think that we can pay our debt?
Indian man (4): The sin, the debt of our sin. Where do you think that we pay it? In the hell, which is not...
Prabhupāda: Hell is the place for your punishment.
Indian man (4): Therefore it is on the earth itself.
Prabhupāda: Why earth?
Indian man (4): In the planet earth, no?
Prabhupāda: No. It can be...
Indian man (4): In any planets?
Prabhupāda: ...many millions' miles away.
Indian man (4): But it is not locate... Only hell is located in one place or a prada(?) is located in another place? Do you think so, Swāmījī?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. There are different planets.
Indian man (4): There are many people who suffer in this world itself.
Prabhupāda: So they are first of all trained up in that hellish planet, and then they come here to suffer the same standard of life.
Indian man (4): When our soul gets out from our body, it goes to the hell or...
Prabhupāda: Hellish planet.
Indian man (4): ...hemisphere or it takes birth immediately afterwards?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Those who are sinful, they do not take immediately birth. They first of all trained up in the hellish planet how to suffer to become accustomed, and then they are taken birth, then suffer. Just like you pass I.A.S., then you become an assistant to the magistrate. You learn. Then you are posted as magistrate. Even if you are fit for going back to home, back to Godhead, you are first of all transferred to the universe where Kṛṣṇa is now present, and there you become accustomed. Then you go to real Vṛndāvana.
Indian man (4): Therefore, after our death...
Prabhupāda: Every arrangement by God is perfect. Pūrṇam. Pūrṇam adaḥ pūrṇam idaṁ pūrṇāt pūrṇam... (Īśopaniṣad, Invocation). Whatever is created by God, that is perfect.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So all the associates of Lord Caitanya also were in the same position.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Liberated souls. Does Lord Caitanya always appear just after Kṛṣṇa?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In every universe.
Prabhupāda: Hmm. (break) All questions are answered, or not yet? Make it clear.
Indian man (4): Yes. I am thinking about it. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...the science of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and educate your men on this island and be happy. There is good potency for this island.
Prabhupāda: Don't be misled by the misleaders.
Cyavana: There are many of them here also. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...clear in the understanding and help your people. That is good service.
Devotee (6): Śrīla Prabhupāda, I was asked a question by a man. He asked that Lord Śiva... Lord Rāmacandra was praying to Lord Śiva in the Rāmāyaṇa, and so he's taking Lord Śiva as being God. And we didn't have a clear answer to him.
Devotee (6): Could you just instruct us, please, on this matter? Why? What reason?
Prabhupāda: Lord Rāmacandra worshiped His devotees. Just like sometimes Kṛṣṇa worships Rādhārāṇī and touched His feet..., Her feet. That does not mean that Kṛṣṇa... Just like Kṛṣṇa was tolerating ear-pulling by Mother Yaśodā. That does not mean that Mother Yaśodā is the Supreme. Hmm? Kṛṣṇa was carrying the wooden shoes of Nanda Mahārāja. So that does not mean Nanda Mahārāja is greater than Kṛṣṇa. It is Kṛṣṇa's pleasure. Just like sometimes a father takes the son on the shoulder, carries.
Does it mean the father is inferior than the son? So this is third-class man's conclusion. They do not know what is Kṛṣṇa, what is Rāma. Kṛṣṇa says that aham ādir hi devānām (BG 10.2). So He is the origin of Lord Śiva. So how Śiva can be the Supreme? We have to consult śāstra. Kṛṣṇa does not say that Śiva is Supreme. So if a third-class man says Śiva is Supreme, we have to accept it? We are preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Whatever Kṛṣṇa says, that is Supreme, not a third-class man's version. Is it clear? Yes. We should not take a third-class, fourth-class man's version. We should take from the śāstra.
Indian man (7): Swāmījī, Śiva is not another name of God?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Śiva is next to God. Just like yogurt, dahī. You know dahī? What is this dahī?
Indian man (7): Curd milk.
Prabhupāda: Milk, but it is not milk. Dahī is not anything but milk, but it is not milk. Similarly, Lord Śiva is nothing but Viṣṇu, but it is not Viṣṇu. Is it clear now?
Indian man (7): Yes.
Prabhupāda: You can say, "Well, dahī is nothing but milk." Yes. But it is not milk. If instead of milk you take dahī, the result will be different. And if you take milk instead of dahī, the result will be different, although the milk and dahī is the same thing, same ingredients. So you have to understand in that way. Lord Śiva is nondifferent from the Supreme Lord. Everyone is nondifferent from Supreme Lord, but he's still different. This is the perfect philosophy, acintya-bhedābheda, simultaneously one and different.
Indian man (7): Swāmījī, in all the temples in Mauritius especially, the supreme deity, whom everybody comes...
Prabhupāda: Supreme Deity is Viṣṇu.
Indian man (7): But we consider Lord Śiva to be the supreme deity, because we...
Prabhupāda: But that is your lack of knowledge. I have already explained that, that yogurt is not different from milk. It is milk, but still it is not milk. You have to understand like that. Lord Śiva is not different from Viṣṇu, but he's still not Viṣṇu.
Indian man (7): No, but do we offer the prayer first to Śiva...?
Prabhupāda: That you do. There is no harm. Lord Śiva is also called Mahādeva. Amongst the demigods, he is the chief. So if you worship Lord Śiva... We also worship Śiva. It is not that we disrespect Śiva. We offer our utmost respect to Lord Śiva. But that does not mean that he is the Supreme Lord.
Indian man (7): The difference that is there, Swāmījī...
Prabhupāda: Difference I have already explained. You cannot understand?
Indian man (7): No, no, we pray Śiva first, and then we go to pray Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: So that you do. There is no harm. There is no harm. But you should understand what is Śiva and what is Viṣṇu. If you offer first prayer to Lord Śiva, there is no harm. It is good. He is... Vaiṣṇavānāṁ yathā śambhuḥ (SB 12.13.16). He is our spiritual master. He is Vaiṣṇava. Why not offer first respect to him? Then... But if you take Lord Śiva as the Supreme, that is insult. You are giving me respect as spiritual master, but if you give me overestimation, that "You are the king of the whole world," that is insult. That is insult. That is not prayer. If you offer me prayer as I am befitting, then it is all right. But if you give me prayer for which I am not befitting, that is insult. That is insult. So you must know what is the position of... Lord Śiva is Vaiṣṇava; he is the greatest devotee; he is the number one demigod—and everything is all right. But if you say that he is the Supreme, then he will feel insulted, that "What is this nonsense saying?" So don't insult him in that way. That will go against your credit. He doesn't like that.
Devotee (6): Also one other question came up from this man.
Prabhupāda: A man may ask so many nonsense. A man is man, imperfect man. Why you bother about that? Man is imperfect. You have to take conclusion from the śāstra. A man may say anything nonsense. What we have got to do with him? He is a man, after all, imperfect man. So what is the value of his statement?
Indian man (7): So he's a man and he's imperfect that he asks questions from you... No, Swāmījī?
Prabhupāda: No. If he submissively asks to know, then we can explain. If he challenges, then he should be avoided. But he's a rascal. He does not know what is what.
Brahmānanda: Yesterday at that meeting they were challenging.
Brahmānanda: Some of the men yesterday...
Prabhupāda: So I replied in that way, yes, that "Why you put these ridiculous questions?"
Cyavana: Yes. Before he asked it.
Harikeśa: That's what he could not understand, that you knew he was a... (laughter)
Prabhupāda: The other man I said, "Why do you bring 'India'? Never... Kṛṣṇa never said, yadā yadā hi Hindu dharmasya glānir... (laughter) Nonsense, what is this? Dharmasya glānir bhavati (BG 4.7). Why do you bring 'Hindu dharma,' 'India'?" That is their imperfectness of knowedge. We are not talking of Hindu dharma, Muslim dharma, this dharma. We are talking of what is religion. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19). Religion means the law given by God. You should know what is God, what is that law. That is religion.
Devotee (6): They all think we are propagating Hinduisim because we're wearing dhotī...
Prabhupāda: They are thinking. They are rascals. They are thinking like that. Therefore I say they are imperfect. They are imperfectly thinking. So... So there were many Muslims, and the Christian, that Scotland man, he appreciated.
Cyavana: Yes. Very much.
Prabhupāda: So we do not say anything about any particular section. We are speaking about God. God does not belong to any section. When Kṛṣṇa says that there should be four divisions, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam (BG 4.13), He does not say that these divisions should be in the Hindu society or in India. He never says so. So why they take it as Hindu? Kṛṣṇa does not say that it is meant for the Hindus, for India. If God says that "I have created the sun," does it mean sun is created for India, not for this island? So these are foolishness. Whatever is spoken by God, that is meant for everyone, all over the universe. That is real understanding.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's in the American Constitution that all men are created equally.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is real idea.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So they complain that "If all men are created equally, then each man will have equal opportunity."
Prabhupāda: Yes. You can become a brāhmaṇa. Equal oppor..., we are giving. Any man, he may be caṇḍāla, but we give them opportunity: "Come on, you become a brāhmaṇa." We don't deny: "Oh, you are coming from a caṇḍāla family. You cannot become brāhmaṇa." No. We don't say that. We give equal opportunity. (break) ...is that before this movement, really Vedic culture was never broadcast. Therefore they are finding somewhere contradiction, something astonishing. But Vedic culture is meant for the whole world.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It has been misrepresented.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) ...the other day, before Mr. Nanda, that how brāhmaṇa can be from any family. He did not know. No rascal informed him before me. Therefore he was a little surprised. He was also mixed with Anandamaya, this māyā, that... And nobody informed him. He was kept in darkness. That was the first time that he could understand that cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam (BG 4.13)—brāhmaṇa can be prepared from anywhere. The whole India is under the impression that brāhmaṇa can be prepared..., brāhmaṇa is manufactured in India, and the son of a brāhmaṇa is a brāhmaṇa.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This is propagated by the brāhmaṇas themselves, though, isn't it?
Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, this is the current idea.
(break) ...culture is meant for everyone... (end)