751019 - Morning Walk - Johannesburg

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His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada



751019MW-JOHANNESBURG - October 19, 1975 - 46:33 Minutes



Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...cutting trees.

Prabhupāda: Because they are also living being, so you cannot take their life unnecessarily. You are responsible. You can cut trees when they are dried like this; otherwise not. (break) ...cutting trees indiscriminately for manufacturing paper, some bundles of papers nobody reads. Every day...

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They throw away.

Prabhupāda: ...they are publishing hundreds of thousands of copies for wasting, and for that paper it requires so many lives.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No one has ever considered such things before.

Prahupada: No, where is the man? All animals. Man will think. One who has knowledge, he will think. And what the animal will think? Anyone who is not a devotee, he is animal. Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ (SB 2.3.19). The big animal is being worshiped by a small animal. That's all. A lion in the forest is worshiped by the small animals. So does it mean the lion is not animal?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He is also animal.

Prabhupāda: He is also animal. So similarly, all these leaders, these scientists, these philosophers, they are applauded by the small animals, but they are also animals, big animal, that's all. The test is whether he understands the spirit soul different from the body. If he does not understand, he is animal, that's all. Maybe big animal, that is a different thing. Big or small, animal is animal.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So anyone who is not aware of the spirit soul...

Prabhupāda: He is animal. That's all. Sa eva gokharaḥ. That is the verdict of the śāstra. Yasyātmā buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke (SB 10.84.13): "Anyone who considers this body made of three elements—kapha, pitta, vayu—as self," yasyātm-buddhi kuṇape tri-dhātuke svadhiḥ kalatradiṣu, "and the accidental combination of family members, they are own kinsmen," sva-dhiḥ kala..., bhauma idyadhiḥ, "and the land in which they are born, that is worshipable..." That is nationalism, so-called nationalism. Bhauma idyadhiḥ yat-tīrtha-buddhiḥ salile: "And going to the pilgrimage, taking the water as very important," yat tīrtha buddhiḥ..., yat tīrtha buddhiḥna karhicij janeṣv abhijaneṣu, "and they do not care for the learned, experienced saintly person," sa eva gokharaḥ, "such person is nothing but cows and asses." That's all. If one does not know that he is not this body, he is different from body, so that sort of knowledge is there amongst the dogs. So why he should be distinguished from the dog? The basic knowledge is the same.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: One who has such knowledge... What is the position of one who has such theoretical knowledge but doesn't apply it?

Prabhupāda: Not theoretical. Practical.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: What happens if someone doesn't apply it practically? What is their position? Are they higher than the person in ignorance?

Prabhupāda: No, what do you mean by theoretical knowledge?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Just like so many... In Indian philosophy everyone knows that there is ātmā, but still, people continue to act on the gross bodily platform for sense enjoyment.

Prabhupāda: Then, if he seriously understood, then he will act on ātmā. And otherwise, simply understanding, that is impersonal understanding, Brahman only understanding. But what is after that Brahman knowledge, that they do not know. So they are almost as good as the animals. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54). Therefore they are not happy. Simply theoretical knowledge that "I am Brahman," that's all.

Indian man (1): They know the knowledge, but they don't act according to that.

Prabhupāda: Therefore they are not happy. Otherwise one who knows, "I am Brahman," brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā—he will be happy always. That has become fashion. "Table-chair brahma-jñāna," sitting on the table, chair, smoking and talking of Brahman. "Armchair brahma-jñāna." Although Kṛṣṇa is giving information, brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati, samaḥ sarveṣu..., mad-bhaktiṁ labhate param (BG 18.54), so they do not make further progress, mad-bhaktiṁ labhate param, to achieve that platform of bhakti. Therefore it is as good as no knowledge. These will be the symptoms of brahma-jñāna, na śocati na kāṅ..., samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. If they have got brahma-jñāna, then why they should distinguish? Just like in our country, Mahatma Gandhi, so he is designated as mahātmā, but why he was against the Englishmen, to drive them away? That is not brahma-jñāna. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. They are as good. As these white people, they do not give any chance to the other people, so similarly, Mahatma Gandhi also, he wanted that "These white people should go away." So what is the distinction? The same knowledge. "You want me..., to drive me away; I want to drive you away." So what is the distinction between you and me? The one dog is barking at another dog; another dog is barking, another dog. That's all. Where is knowledge?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That's a very interesting view.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Where is the change of understanding? It is natural. If you treat me as enemy, I treat you as enemy. That is natural. But brahma-jñāna means samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu (BG 18.54), that no distinction, "Everyone is Brahman." That is brahma-jñāna. (to guests:) What was the movement here of Mahatma Gandhi?

Indian man (1): There was a movement.

Prabhupāda: Yes. What is that movement?

Indian man (1): Erm... They used to call it...

Indian man (2): Satyagraha movement.

Indian man (1): Nonviolence.

Indian man (2): Fighting for the truth.

Prabhupāda: What was the truth?

Indian man (2): There was discriminatory laws against the Indians, trying to let them carry certain documents to identify that they are foreigners, you know, that type of things. Not allowed to go in certain places where other people were allowed to go, and all those kind of laws, discriminatory laws, especially for the Indians. So he fought against them for the truth that everybody is equal in the eyes of God.

Prabhupāda: So? But it was not successful.

Indian man (2): Partly it was, because then they had to listen to him, what actually the grievances were. First they were not prepared to talk to him. They didn't wanted to know anything. Then they compromised, and from then onwards... Still it has been carried on up to now. The laws are there for the Indians.

Prabhupāda: Still the Indians have no equal right.

Indian man (2): No.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They are not allowed to vote here even, or have any representatives in Parliament.

Indian man (2): No, nothing whatsoever. They are grouped up. Especially now within these couple of years. Before there was living in town and all that, but now they are grouped up in their own areas, not supposed to live in town anymore.

Prabhupāda: The Indians are driven away.

Indian man (1): But there is a change at the moment. We are getting indirect representation in Parliament, and most probably in another twenty, thirty years..., (laughter) things may change.

Devotee: Promises.

Devotee (4): Sounds like the scientists.

Indian man (1): Live on a promise.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: If you're still alive then.

Indian man (1): Is that also affected through karma maybe, Swāmījī?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Indian man (1): Is that also affected through karma maybe?

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) ...the whole, you are getting sufficient food to eat.

Indian man (2): Yes, that we are.

Prabhupāda: But Indians are not getting that. You are better than the Indians in India.

Indian man (2): That's what everybody says who comes from...

Prabhupāda: Oh, I see. Here I see you are prosperous than in India. You go to the ration shop, you'll simply find all rejected food grains.

Indian man (1): Rejected food grains.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They are not eatable. No country uses them as food grain, and India, they are selling, a good price.

Indian man (1): The people are lazy too, Swāmījī.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Indian man (1): Don't you think the people are lazy also?

Prabhupāda: Well, you are the same Indian. Why you are not lazy here? It is the government's policy or government's management. You see? To become lazy is the recommendation of the śāstra. To become lazy... It is a bad word, "lazy," but actually life means not to work very hard. That is real life. And to work hard for eating, that is animal life; that is not human life. Human life should be very peaceful, without any hard work, and cultivating spiritual knowledge. That is human life, not that to work hard like hogs and dogs throughout the whole day for find out some stool, where it is. That is not human life. So people are being educated to work very hard. That is not human life. Therefore those who have got money, they build nice bungalow in a secluded place to live peacefully, to become lazy. Is it not?

Indian man (1): Yes.

Prabhupāda: Perfection of life means ultimately you become lazy; you haven't got to work. That is perfection, they say. Otherwise, why they get a cottage in a secluded place and live? All these Americans, they go weekend. They leave aside all working, they become tired, hard-working, and they go. That is the intention, that you should live peaceful life, not working very hard. That is human life. Huh? Otherwise why they go outside the city at the weekend? Why do they go? Hmm?

Indian man (1): They want rest, I suppose. They want to rest.

Prabhupāda: So that means lazy.

Indian man (1): No.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Rest means lazy; you don't work.

Indian man (1): If one works five days a week, you rest for two...

Prabhupāda: That is another thing. You have to work to become lazy. (laughter) That is another thing. But the goal is to become lazy. You work five days very hard just to become lazy for two days. That's all. So if you have got means to become seven days lazy, you'll prefer it.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But I think people would... Most people would go crazy if they didn't have any work.

Prabhupāda: No, that means their life is not properly conducted. And therefore the word laziness has come. Laziness is not actually the word. Laziness means minimizing the bodily labor and engaged in spiritual work. If you ask people, "Please come to our temple," who is coming? Because he says, "I have no time." But we are not working hard. So real aim of life is to... In German, I think, or somewhere there is classification: "Lazy intelligent, busy intelligent, lazy fool and busy fool." So at the present moment (laughs) the whole world is full of busy fools. But the first-class man, he is lazy intelligent. Lazy and intelligent, that is first-class man. And second-class man, busy intelligent. And third class means lazy fool, and fourth class means busy fool. When the fools are busy... Just like nowadays they are busy, but they are fools. Like monkey, he is very busy. You see? And they prefer to be generation of monkey, busy fool. That's all. Fools, when he is busy, he is simply creating havoc, that's all. Better... Lazy fool is better than him, because he will not create so much harm, but this busy fool will simply create harm. And first-class man is lazy intelligent. He knows the value of life, and soberly he is thinking. Just like all our great saintly persons, they were living in the forest, meditation, tapasya and writing books. All, you will find, lazy intelligent. They are first-class men.

Indian man (1): Not like the monkey, jumping from one...

Prabhupāda: Busy fool, what is the value? He is fool, and he is busy. So nowadays the education is to make busy fool, that's all.

Indian man (1): About the busy intelligent?

Prabhupāda: The second class.

Indian man (1): How does he behave?

Prabhupāda: Busy intelligent means at least whatever he is doing, there is some meaning, busy intelligent. And lazy intelligent means he is doing higher things. Lazy intelligent means brāhmaṇa, and busy intelligent, kṣatriya. So the cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭām (BG 4.13). The society should be divided into four classes. The śūdras, they are busy fools; therefore they are to be guided. They are to be guided. If there are, hundred workers are there, then one leader must be there to give the direction: "Why you are doing this? Why you don't do this?" Otherwise he'll create havoc. Busy fool. So the whole world is full of busy fools, that's all. In the Bhagavad-gītā you will find that for brāhmaṇa, śamo damaḥ satyaṁ śaucaṁ titikṣa ārjavam, jñānam vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma sva... (BG 18.42). There is no recommendation that "You work hard day and night." The brahminical qualification is controlling the senses, controlling the mind, truthful, clean, knows everything nicely, practical application of the knowledge, full faith in śāstra and Bhagavān. Jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyam. These things are recommended. Not that a brāhmaṇa should become very busy whole day and night for getting food.

So śāstra says, "There is no use of becoming busy for your food. Food is there already." Food is already there. He'll get his food. That is arrangement by God. But they are busy fool. They do not understand the God's arrangement. Only for food they are busy whole day and night like cats and dogs. Now this land is there. You can... Everyone can grow food if he works for two months. Everyone can grow his whole year's foodstuff. There is so much land. But no, they'll not grow food; they will grow hammer, manufacturing it. You see? Tire tube, then atom bomb, then this and that. They are busy. They are busy fool. Actually they are fools, and they are very busy. Everyone is busy. There are so many parts in the motorcar, three thousand part, and they are busy in manufacturing the three thousand parts of motor parts. So everyone is busy in producing things unwanted. But they have created a society in such a way that they have to do that.

Indian man (1): Otherwise they think that they not economically progressing. Maybe they think they are not economcally progressing.

Prabhupāda: Huh? What is that economical progressing? So that means busy fool. Fool, they do not know how to satisfy the economic problem. That is recommended in the Bhagavad-gītā, annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14): you grow food grains. Then all economic question... But why you are not producing food grains? Why you are producing iron stools and instruments and motor and tires, and collecting petrol far away from Arabia? That is... Kṛṣṇa never says that "You do all this nonsense." He said, "Grow food grains." Why don't you do that? That means fools. After all, you have to eat. So you are not busy in growing your food, but you are busy in producing tire tubes, motorcars, stools and instruments. Then how you will get your food? Where is your economics? First economic is, first necessity, you must eat.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But with the tire tubes and nuts and bolts they can make a tractor. And the tractor can help produce food, they think, much faster.

Prabhupāda: No, that is waste of energy. Because you are eating the bulls, therefore you require a tractor. Otherwise you don't kill the bulls. This animal will do the business of tractor.

Devotee (4): Little work.

Prabhupāda: But you want to eat them, so you must find out...

Indian man (1): Some other means.

Prabhupāda: Replacement. That's it.

Devotee (4): But man has to progress.

Prabhupāda: What is that nonsense progress? To become busy fool? That is progress? Do you think it is progress to become busy fool? This is not progress. The progress means lazy intelligent, that he will not have to work but he will get all the comforts automatically. That is wanted. That is progress. Actually nobody wants to work, but he is obliged to work because his necessities are not sufficiently met. Therefore he has to work. He has created such society that he has to work hard.

Indian man (1): Some of them wants to sit in the office and order the directors, "Do this, do this." They want to be on the head. They want to have peace there, but while they are sitting on the chair, they haven't got any peace.

Prabhupāda: No.

Indian man (1): So they got to order everybody. That's what I believe.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. He has to tax his brain. Kṛṣṇa has given advice, everything: "Divide the society into four classes—brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra." And then the brāhmaṇas should give nice advice, teacher. The kṣatriyas should govern, and the vaiśyas should produce food and give protection to the cows, and if there is excess, then trade. And śūdra should help, worker. Here I see the Europeans, they are working as the kṣatriyas, government, and the Indians they are working as vaiśya, and the African, they are as śūdras. But where is brāhmaṇa? There is no brāhmaṇa; therefore it is not good. It will suffer. And if they accept, the government men, accept our advice and do accordingly—we don't want government post, but we can give good advice how to govern—then everyone will be happy. That they are losing. There is no good head. They are simply thinking in their animal way, "Why the Indians should come here?" And the Indians are, "Why whites are neglecting us?" This is going on because there is no good engagement. So this is essential, that the society should be divided into four classes of men: the first-class men—lazy intelligent; second-class men—busy intelligent; and third-class men—lazy fool; and fourth-class men—busy fool.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But we find śūdras even amongst the European class here, even though they are in the governing position.

Prabhupāda: No, we are not speaking "Europeans," "American," "Indians." We are speaking human being. We never say... Bhagavad-gītā never says that the Europeans should be the first-class men and Indian should be the last... It never says. That is training. Just like in engineering college. The European also can become engineer, and the Indian also can become engineer. There is no discrimination. Similarly, this division of society, that the whole human society, it should be recruited and trained up. Then society will be all right. Otherwise not.

Indian man (1): Is this still possible, Swāmījī? Is there still possibility that that can happen?

Prabhupāda: At any moment, provided you agree. But you do not agree. Nobody is prepared to become a brāhmaṇa. Everyone wants to become a śūdra. This is the modern civilization.

Indian man (1): But can a person become a brāhmaṇa?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Why not?

Indian man (1): Doesn't it depend...

Prabhupāda: It is training. How they are become brāhmaṇa? According to śāstra, they are coming from mleccha, yavana. How they have become brāhmaṇa? More than brāhmaṇa. But they are abiding by the rules. You see? They are accustomed to eat meat from the very birth. They have given up. And if we request Indians, they will not give up, although their forefathers never ate meat.

Indian man (1): Does it say somewhere in the Bhagavad-gītā that we shouldn't eat meat? It's in there?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Yes. Ahara-śuddhi. There are three kinds..., four kinds of ahara: sāttvika, rājasika, tāmasika. Everything is there, the classification of āhāra. Meat is tāmasika-āhara, fourth class. It is not first class.

Indian man (1): When the Āryan civilization was there in the past, Swāmījī, were there also such kind of economic problems in the...?

Prabhupāda: There was no economic problem. Every time... Always this system is followed: cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭām (BG 4.13). And it is the duty of the government to see that this classification is properly being executed. That is the duty of the government. Secular state means that as you like, you can become. But if you claim to become a brāhmaṇa, you must act as a brāhmaṇa, not that you act as a śūdra, bhaṅgī, and also you are brāhmaṇa. No. That will not be allowed by the government.

Indian man (1): The purity must be there. (break)

Prabhupāda: Yes. In the whole world you won't find qualified brāhmaṇas. And they are required for guiding the human society. So therefore the human society is in chaotic condition. There is no guidance. The śūdras, they make things by vote. And what they'll vote? They're all rascals. What is the value of their votes? So that is going on all over the world. Fools and rascals they vote, and another vote is selected..., er, another rascal is selected. And after some time—"Oh, he is not suitable. Get him down," Nixon, and replace another fool, rascal. Just see.

Indian man (1): That is continuously going on.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Going on. The democracy means the selector, the elector, they are all fools and rascals. So how he will select a person who is not rascal?

Indian man (1): Is it possible that every man's life is directed by God, and you're born to do certain things, and you come down to be prime minister or something?

Prabhupāda: Yes, there is something like that. But I am talking of if you depend on God, then why do you keep election? You are opportunist. Sometimes you take shelter of God and sometimes of your election power. If you are so firm believer in God, then why election? Let God elect. Why you take part in election? Huh? Let God elect the prime minister. Why you are busy in giving vote? (break) God elected Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira. Hmm? His plan was that Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira should be king, not Duryodhana. So He killed all the Duryodhana's party and selected Yudhiṣṭhira: "Sit down here." That is God's election. So why you elect? Depend on God.

Indian man (2): And that comes through lack of spiritual knowledge, Swāmījī?

Prabhupāda: Yes, no knowledge. No spiritual knowledge means he is an animal, that's all. Sa eva gokharaḥ. This is the final word. One who has no spiritual knowledge, he is no better than these cows and dogs. That's all. Therefore guidance of the brāhmaṇa required. Why the brāhmaṇas are selected to guide? Because they have got full vijñāna, jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyam. Therefore.

Indian man (1): It is very necessary for the brāhmaṇas. We must have brāhmaṇas in the society.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. You are very intelligent. Therefore we are creating some brāhmaṇas. We are not creating the busy fools. No.

Devotee (5): Does that mean that the more one gets control over his senses, he becomes more lazy intelligent?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. One who is servant of his senses, what is intelligence? That is dog's intelligence. As soon as he sees one lady dog, and ten dogs come here and begin to smell vagina. Is that intelligence? So the human society is like that. They're smelling the vagina of the girls, that's all. Everyone is doing that.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So the activities of the lazy intelligent are jñāna-vijñāna?

Prabhupāda: Jñāna-vijñānam, yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Not sleep. Not sleep.

Prabhupāda: No. This is the term used, "lazy," but real term is dhīra. The Sanskrit word is dhīra. And everything... Just like high-court judge, he is dhīra. He is... Before giving judgment, he thinks three days, silently. That is your... That is not laziness. His brain is working how to give nice judgment. That is required. But because we do not understand what is dhīra, we think that "This man is sitting idly and drawing four thousand rupees." Because we know, "Unless one is active like dog, running there, running there, he is not a busy man." And he cannot appreciate the work of the author, the work of the high-court judge. They think they are lazy. Therefore he's using the "lazy," but lazy and intelligent. Otherwise he is not lazy; he is dhīra. The word is dhīra. Dhīras tatra na muhyati (BG 2.13). Unless one is dhīra, one cannot understand that there is soul within the body. (break) Kṛṣṇa uses this word, dhīras tatra na muhyati. One has to become dhīra, sober, silent. Then he can understand. Not these busy dogs.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But Arjuna is fighting for Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: No, no... You try one point. Arjuna's fighting is... That is all right. So what is your question? The subject matter was defined. Now you jump over to another. Why?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Indian man (1): So everything is in the Bhagavad-gītā. Everything is there.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. This understanding, that soul is different from the body, it is meant for the dhīra, not for the adhīra. There are two classes men, dhīra and adhīra. So adhīra means busy fool, and dhīra means lazy intelligent. But our this movement is meant both for the dhīra and adhīra.

Indian man (1): Dhīra and adhīra.

Prabhupāda: Adhīra. We can make them really human beings, never mind he is dhīra or adhīra. It is so nice movement. Dhīrādhīra. Kṛṣṇotkīrtana-gāna-nartana-parau premāmṛtāmbho-nidhī dhīrādhīra priyau (Śrīnivāsa Ācārya). It is very pleasing both for the dhīras and adhīras. Why not? What we are doing? We invite people, "Please come here. Chant, dance and take prasāda." So both the dhīras and adhīras, they will be attracted. Dhīrādhīra priya. (break) You cannot make everyone dhīra; that is not possible. There is necessity of adhīra also. That is also... But it should be guided by the dhīra.

Indian man (1): Adhīra should be guided by the dhīra.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Adhīra should be guided by the dhīra. Then it will be all right. (break) Unnecessarily.

Indian man (1): The whole week they are very, very busy. Now today, Sunday, they can at least they think that by playing golf they can relax.

Prabhupāda: That is also another busy-ness. So this Sunday should have been utilized for understanding God. But they have no knowledge, because they are fools. So again busy in pushing on a ball, that's all.

Harikeśa: We should go quickly. They're not going to stop.

Indian man (1): They won't stop.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They've already both hit the ball. Now walk three hundred yards and hit it again.

Prabhupāda: Busy fools, creating foolishness. And this is aristocracy, a rich man's engagement.

Indian man (1): Yes. He can afford all this.

Indian man (3): So how long this thing will continue now, Swāmījī, the materialistic progress, the way they are carrying on today?

Prabhupāda: If you don't take advice from Kṛṣṇa, it will continue. You take advice of Kṛṣṇa, it will be all right. The disease is there; the treatment is there. If you take treatment, the disease will disappear. If you don't take, the disease will continue and you will die, that's all.

Indian man (1): So eventually destruction can come to this earth?

Prabhupāda: It is already come, but because you are not intelligent, you do not see it. It is already come. Who is happy? (end)