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760316 - Morning Walk - Mayapur

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

760316MW-MAYAPUR - March 16, 1976 - 38.44 Minutes

Devotee (1): You want a loṭā for . . .?

Prabhupāda: What for the loṭā is there?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: To water the tulasī.

Devotee (2): See is there any loṭā.

Devotee (1): No loṭā.

Prabhupāda: See how aparādhī, offender. They have used that loṭā for watering. Great offender. This is going on, mlecchas and yavanas.

Jayapatākā: I don't know whose loṭā that is.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Jayapatākā: I don't know whose loṭā that is.

Prabhupāda: I know. It has been used for watering.

Rāmeśvara: Prabhupāda discovered, it came from the bathroom.

Prabhupāda: Who is that rascals? Huh? Who took it from the bathroom, toilet room?

Jayapatākā: That was in the toilet room?

Prabhupāda: Yes. You do not know? You have not used that loṭā?

Jayapatākā: No.

Prabhupāda: You never use that toilet?

Jayapatākā: No, not since you've been using it.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Jayapatākā: Since you've been using it I have never entered that toilet.

Prabhupāda: No, that's all right. Before that.

Jayapatākā: Before that, loṭā wasn't there. There was another loṭā for the bathroom.

Prabhupāda: Then who kept that loṭā? I used that loṭā. I know. I was acquainted with this loṭā.

Jayapatākā: That was your personal, I think.

Prabhupāda: Personal . . . before I used that toilet, the loṭā was there. No, one who has used that, he has no sense how to water tulasī plant. He should be instructed, who has done it that, "You never use that toilet loṭā." (break) . . . observing fast day today?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Up to?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Moonrise.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Full moon. (break)

Prabhupāda:communist countries they accept a leader.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Do they not?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes.

Prabhupāda: So before they became Communist, they had some leader or not?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, the Czar in Russia.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The Czar was the leader in Russia.

Jayatīrtha: And Chiang Kai-shek in China.

Prabhupāda: So why they changed their leader?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: There was a revolution.

Madhudviṣa: People were unsatisfied.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Madhudviṣa: People were not satisfied with the government. There was a revolution.

Prabhupāda: No, people were not satisfied . . . the principle . . . what is the principle? To have better leader. Is it not? So if they get still better leader, why they will not change?

Madhudviṣa: They would say it's not the leader but it's the system.

Prabhupāda: Whatever. The system is done by some leaders. Anything . . . just like our this system we have introduced. I am the leader. Similarly, a leader is changed for betterment of the situation. So if the Communists and those who have brain, if they find a better leader for better situation, why they'll not? And they want for revolution only. They are in favor of revolution. Their theory is that periodically there must be revolution. That is their theory. I talked with Professor Kotovsky. So why they will not accept another revolution for further advancement?

Madhudviṣa: One of the main problems I can see is to divorce our movement from religious concept, because . . .

Prabhupāda: It is not the question of religious concept. This is nonsense. You have to . . . just like when Kṛṣṇa says, dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā (BG 2.13)—that is the beginning of Bhagavad-gītā—so does it mean a religion?

Rūpānuga: No.

Prabhupāda: Then why these nonsense take it as religion? It is a fact. How you can neglect the fact? Eh? Kaumāraṁ yauvanam jara. A baby becoming a boy, boy becoming a young man, is it religion? Either Hindu or Muslim or Christian or Buddha, everyone is becoming like that. Where is religion? Why do they take it as religion?

Satsvarūpa: It's religion because it's not empirical fact.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Satsvarūpa: It's not an empirical fact.

Prabhupāda: What is that empirical fact?

Satsvarūpa: That after you die, you take another body.

Prabhupāda: Apart from that, why . . . how the baby is becoming a boy? This is a fact. How a baby is becoming a child, a child is becoming a boy, a boy is becoming young man, a young man is becoming middle-aged? Does it mean . . . is it a particular type of religious system? Why this nonsense? What kind of intelligent person they are? It is a fact. Now we come to the old age. So I have come to the point of old age body after so many stages. Then where is the next? The next is tathā dehāntara, he'll get another body. This is very common sense.

Madhudviṣa: They won't accept that.

Prabhupāda: That means a rascal. Why should you not . . .? You answer, then what is next?

Madhudviṣa: They will say he is finished.

Prabhupāda: No, how it can be finished? How it can be finished?

Madhudviṣa: Because they don't have a concept of spiritual . . .

Prabhupāda: If you have come stage by stage by stage . . . it is finished to your eyes. Just like the sunshine is there, "In the evening there will be no more sun; it is finished." What is this nonsense? Is it finished? A rascal may say it is finished.

Rūpānuga: Out of sight, they say it is finished.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So this thing you have to convince them. Why should you allow them to remain a rascal? Now the sun is rising. Does it mean all of a sudden a sun is created? So these are the examples. You have to preach like that. Simply believe your eyes? You believe also there was no sun, now it is sun. That means all of a sudden a sun became created. See the intelligent persons and convince them. Yad yad ācārati śreṣṭhaḥ (BG 3.21). Pick up the best man. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He picked up the best men, Sanātana Gosvāmī, Rūpa Gosvāmī. So His movement became successful. Sanātana Gosvāmī was not an ordinary man. Very educated, learned brāhmaṇa and minister, Caitanya Mahāprabhu picked up. Similarly Rūpa Gosvāmī, similarly Jīva Gosvāmī. Picked up means by His preaching they became converted. So similarly pick up a person like Sanātana Gosvāmī, intelligent, in position, and try to convince him. Why he will not be convinced, if he's a human being? This is not religion. That I am breathing, what is this breathing? Eh? What is the breathing?

Gurukṛpā: Air going in and out.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Now, when the breathing is stopped, why don't you manufacture some machine that breathing will come again? Why you cannot do it? Everyone knows it is air. Put some machine within and let there be breathing. Tell me why you cannot do it?

Mahendra: They have some machines like that, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Then you are another rascal. Who is this rascal?

Mahendra: They have some machines.

Prabhupāda: And don't spoil time like that, "They have got a machine." What is that machine?

Mahendra: Machines are not living.

Prabhupāda: And don't create unnecessary talks. What is that machine? They have a machine? What is that nonsense machine? Eh? Who knows that machine? Eh?

Gurukṛpā: It's called an air respirator.

Prabhupāda: But can it bring life?

Gurukṛpā: No.

Prabhupāda: Then what is the use of that machine?

Gurukṛpā: It prolongs life, that's all.

Prabhupāda: What is the use of that machine? Everyone knows that it is air. Now air is stopped. That is my reject. Bring that air again. There is ample air. Bring that machine. Simply.similarly, if you analyze the whole body, it is confirmed, you will find these five elements, that's all—earth, water, air, fire, sky. That's all.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's scientific. No one denies that.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Then why don't you create a body? Where is your science?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You've just pointed out: the body may already be there, but they cannot replace the life. Even a body is already created, like a dead body, but they can't bring life back into it.

Prabhupāda: Then what is that life? That is the question. That life is soul. You have to accept. (break) . . . car stop. Some machine broken. As soon as the machine is placed, now the motorcar is fit for running, but not for the machine, but for the driver. When the driver is not there, you cannot create or purchase a driver. That is not possible. You can repair the machine, but without driver the machine will not run. So why they should be blind about this fact? What is this knowledge, advancement of knowledge? The body is created. If it is accepted, body is created by these material elements—now create another body. Just like doll-makers make a body, you also make a body, very beautiful woman, and give it life. Why they cannot do it?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But even accepting that the soul is the living force, they may say that, "Well, we're living in this material world and we have to deal with matter, so what is the importance of all this knowledge?"

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They may say that, "We're living in the material world in spite of this knowledge, so we have to deal with material circumstances."

Prabhupāda: But you do not like to die. Why do you die with your material knowledge? Nobody wants to die, but why you die? Then where is your material knowledge? You do not like to be old man. Where is your material knowledge that you can stop old age? Then you have to accept that your material knowledge is not perfect. Why you are so much proud of this false knowledge, unnecessarily?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But we don't see that you are able to stop death.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We agree that it would be nice to stop death, but where is . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, we know. You learn from us. We know. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). This is the process.

Bhavānanda: But we haven't seen that anyone in your movement . . .

Prabhupāda: Again "seeing," condemned seeing. Your seeing is like that, that "The sun has come all of a sudden." That is your seeing. And when the sun is not there, "The sun dead." That is your seeing. This is rascal seeing, animal seeing.

Madhudviṣa: Then you want us to have faith.

Prabhupāda: No faith. It is knowledge.

Madhudviṣa: If I can't see, then it means faith.

Prabhupāda: No, you can't see. You are rascal, how you will see? Just like an astrologer can say it is going to happen. You cannot see, but he can see.

Madhudviṣa: That means I have to have faith, though.

Prabhupāda: It is not faith. It is fact. If I say that, "At 6:30 in the evening there will be no sun," it is not faith, it is fact. But a rascal does not say . . . "No, why? The sun is there. Why there will be no sun?" But intelligent man will say: "No, there will be no sun." It is neither astrology, neither anything. It is knowledge. You have no knowledge, you do not know. I have knowledge, I can tell. That is the way.

Madhudviṣa: But I must believe that knowledge.

Prabhupāda: But you are rascal, "I believe." Learn how to believe it, how to see it.

Madhudviṣa: But I have another teacher who can teach me something I can see.

Prabhupāda: Paśyanti jñāna-cakṣuṣā. Paśyanti jñāna-cakṣuṣā (BG 15.10). If you have got knowledge, then you can see. But you have no knowledge. How you can see? Therefore you have to go to a person where you get the knowledge. Then you will see. Another example is that in the desert the animal is seeing there is water.

Gurukṛpā: Mirage.

Prabhupāda: He is seeing. And the man knows that there is no water. That is the difference between animal and man. The animal cannot see. The man can see. So become a perfect man. Then you'll see everything.

Trivikrama: Another example you give, when we see the sun it looks like a small disk.

Prabhupāda: There are so many examples. Why you believe your rascal eyes? Why you are proud of seeing? You cannot see.

Devotee: They may say in relation to that . . .

Prabhupāda: You have got the same eyes, but when it is dark you cannot see. Then what is the value of your eyes? You see under condition. That is not absolute. (break) . . . should be informed that, "Why you have changed?" Now, the Russian and Chinese, first of all they began believing Lenin, or Marx.

Madhudviṣa: Marx was the original.

Prabhupāda: Now they are not in agreement. Why?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They saw it practically. It was impractical.

Prabhupāda: That means for advancement of knowledge you have to change. They accept this theory, revolution. So if you get better situation, why you'll not change?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They accept a better theory when it is presented.

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is presented. This is the beginning that, "Your knowledge is imperfect. You are believing your eyes, but that is not perfect knowledge. You have to see with knowledge." Paśyati jñāna . . . paśyanti jñāna-cakṣuṣā. Śāstra-cakṣuṣāt. That is seeing, not seeing like a child. A child is seeing a motorcar is running, a aeroplane is running. He thinks a wonderful machine, but it is not the machine. It is the pilot. It is the driver. A child cannot see it. The father knows that it is not the machine. The machine may be however perfectly made, it cannot run. There must be a perfect pilot also. Just like we get on aeroplane. There are hundreds of men. If there is any trouble, then the pilot can stop it, not the hundreds of men.

Mahendra: In these Communist countries, Śrīla Prabhupāda, such as Russia . . .

Prabhupāda: Not Communist country—everywhere, a pilot is required. Not Communist country.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Every country has a leader.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So these . . . all this "ism"—communism, this "ism," this "ism," beginning from that Greek history—so many changes have been made in Europe, leaders, sometimes Napoleon, sometimes Mussolini, sometimes Hitler. It is going on. So where is the perfect situation? You have changed so many leaders for so many years in the history, but where is your perfect situation?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We have one leader, and our situation is perfect, and we are not changing that leader.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is perfection. We have taken Kṛṣṇa as leader. We are not taking any other leader.

Mahāṁśa: In thousands of years.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hundreds of thousands of years.

Prabhupāda: Millions of years.

Mahāṁśa: So many constitutions, they have been amended so many times. But the Bhagavad-gītā has not been amended since so many millions of years.

Prabhupāda: It cannot be amended. Just like this rule, dehino 'smin yathā dehe (BG 2.13). When the change of body, how you can change the rule? A perfect definition. You cannot change it. (break) . . . religion, the so-called religion, it is changed. Formerly there was no Christianity, and now Christianity. And now, from Christianity, so many others, so many others. That is not religion.

Revatīnandana: If you say that your leader is perfect and you do not change your leader, we see that in India . . . this is where Kṛṣṇa came. He is your leader, but they do not follow Kṛṣṇa any more, and India is in trouble.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the right thing.

Revatīnandana: But why do they not follow if He is perfect leader?

Prabhupāda: That is their misfortune.

Revatīnandana: They argue like that.

Prabhupāda: That is their misfortune. Just like father says: "Child, do this," but he does not do. Father says: "Don't touch fire"; he touches, so he'll suffer.

Madhudviṣa: They can also say that about their leader. They can say that according to Marx, if everyone followed Marx purely, then the Communist system would be running on . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no. What is the purity?

Madhudviṣa: Well, the pure Communist philosophy.

Prabhupāda: What is that pure Communist philosophy? State. We state, "This is our philosophy." What is the Marx philosophy?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Ultimately, they say there should be no leader. Everything will work automatically.

Prabhupāda: But you have leader, rascal. Why do you say no leader? Immediately take shoes and beat with them.

Mahendra: They say that in the future there will be no leaders.

Prabhupāda: Again beat threes, thrice. But we are not so fool that we are going to believe in your future postdated check. We are not so fool. Present right check.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We don't accept blindly.

Prabhupāda: Immediately payable. Then we accept.

Madhudviṣa: They will accept that there has to be a leader . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, they must have. They must have.

Madhudviṣa: . . . but the leader should not be a person which is held in esteem for his personality, but simply a person who is guiding the system.

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Then that is Kṛṣṇa. He is giving this leader. This is a fact.

Trivikrama: And their leader can never be perfect.

Prabhupāda: No, no.

Trivikrama: The Communist leader.

Prabhupāda: You can become perfect if you follow a perfect leader. That's all.

Lokanātha: Just like some gurus say there is no need of guru.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The trouble is, their system is not perfect. Our system is . . .

Prabhupāda: How it can be? Because the leader who introduced this system is a rascal, so how the system can be perfect?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Just like you pointed out yesterday that Communism holds that everyone should have an equal right, but, you pointed out, then why do they limit that simply to human beings?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It is imperfect system.

Prabhupāda: Why they become sectarian?

Madhudviṣa: They will say this is the natural development. When a system develops to this size there will be . . .

Prabhupāda: That you cannot change, natural development. You rascal, why you become leader? I don't require your leadership if everything is going on by nature.

Madhudviṣa: No, it requires a guide.

Prabhupāda: No, because you are rascal, you are under nature. So how you can guide me? Your position is the same. You are blind, I am blind. How you can lead me?

Madhudviṣa: They won't say that.

Prabhupāda: So, "They won't say" means . . .

Madhudviṣa: They say that . . .

Prabhupāda: Why shall I accept you, blind leader? If a blind . . . I am blind, and if a blind man says: "Come on, I shall guide you," why shall I accept that leader?

Madhudviṣa: Their contention is not that, though. Their contention is that Mao Tse Tung, along with being the political leader, is also the spiritual guide of the people.

Prabhupāda: Political, social is not. The leader must be perfect. If the leader is blind, how can I accept such blind leader? I am blind man. What is the use? I am blind; therefore I am asking, "Can you help me to cross the road?" Another blind, "Yes, yes, come on, I shall." Why shall I accept? First of all I shall ask, "You have got eyes?" "No, I am also blind." What is this nonsense?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Do they admit their leader to be blind?

Revatīnandana: No. They use their leader's book as Bible.

Prabhupāda: Then why you change? Why you change?

Revatīnandana: They don't change. They follow Mao.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They . . .

Revatīnandana: They have a book. They accept it as fact.

Prabhupāda: They say there is necessity of revolution. The Communist theory they accept, that periodically there is need of revolution.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: But it all culminates.

Madhudviṣa: That's not to change. That's not to change.

Prabhupāda: You have change, change of the system.

Madhudviṣa: No, that's not to change the system. That's to purify it.

Prabhupāda: That change of the leader . . .

Madhudviṣa: That's to purge the system.

Revatīnandana: Continuous purification.

Prabhupāda: That's means . . . purge out means it is not perfect.

Madhudviṣa: No, they will say that in any system . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no.

Madhudviṣa: . . . over the years they are dealing with millions of people.

Prabhupāda: No, but if I can give you any system which is perfect, why you'll not accept it? Why you are so fool?

Madhudviṣa: Then, if you can give a system that people will not deviate?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Madhudviṣa: Any system people can deviate from . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no, deviate, that you have got independence to deviate from anything.

Madhudviṣa: So that is the imperfection.

Prabhupāda: That is your imperfection.

Madhudviṣa: So they will say that is the imperfection in Communism, also, that the system is perfect but we have imperfect people.

Prabhupāda: But if there is an "ism" where there is no such defects, why should you not accept it?

Madhudviṣa: But there is defects, though.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They can point out even within our own movement the different people who don't follow.

Trivikrama: Don't follow, but the system is perfect.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So they'll say their system is also perfect, but there's some that don't follow.

Trivikrama: No, but their system is not perfect.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That you have to establish. But not on the basis that some do not follow.

Bhāgavata: So it didn't save the man who created it. The man who founded the philosophy, it didn't save him.

Madhudviṣa: What does it mean, "The saving"? He died like everyone else.

Trivikrama: Saving means saving from lust and all these things. There's so much . . . they're servants of their senses.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Everyone requires leader, yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: That is a fact.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So they are changing leaders one after another because they think that the present leader will satisfy their present desires more.

Prabhupāda: The leader, perfect leader, is God. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānāṁ (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). That nitya and cetana, all living entities, we are eternal, and we are conscious. And He is the supreme conscious. Therefore God means Supreme Being. You take His leadership. Then He'll properly guide you. That is our philosophy.

Madhudviṣa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, actually, I think it was either Marx or . . .

Prabhupāda: But the leader says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo (BG 18.66): "I shall give you protection from all pitfalls." This is. We also accept leader, but the most perfect leader, who can actually give me protection from all dangers. So Śrīdhara, when you go, you take some letters from me. So what happened about Ganguli? (break) . . . this nature. Just like a child is born, immediately he requires protection by mother.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What . . . Śrīla Prabhupāda, what are the qualifications of a perfect leader?

Prabhupāda: No mistake, no illusion, no cheating, no imperfection. Anyone who commits mistake, he's illusioned, he's a cheater and imperfect—he cannot lead. So bring any leader of these rascal groups and test with these four principles, he is misleader.

Trivikrama: They're all servants of their senses.

Madhudviṣa: They will also say that within our movement the so-called leaders also have imperfections.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Madhudviṣa: They will say, within our movement, that the leaders also have imperfection.

Prabhupāda: No imperfection.

Trivikrama: No imperfection.

Madhudviṣa: They will say: "Yes, we can give you examples."

Prabhupāda: No. No, no. Why? Why you shall accept? They will say. Because therefore they are saying, we shall accept?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Here's Prabhupāda. Here's Prabhupāda

Trivikrama: The so-called leaders, maybe they are imperfect, but the real leader, he is perfect.

Prabhupāda: Yes, this is test of.

Madhudviṣa: They will say: "He also makes mistakes."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Where is that mistake?

Prabhupāda: No, there is no mistake.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We have not seen any mistakes.

Gurudāsa: Where is the mistake?

Prabhupāda: There is no mistake.

Gurudāsa: Jaya.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What would you define . . .

Prabhupāda: If you think your leader is mistaken, then you are mistaken. (laughter)

Mahendra: Like a mirror. You see a mistake but it's yourself.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: The leader of mistake—therefore immediately gives evidence from śāstra. What is the use of quoting from the śāstra? "Just to prove that I am not mistaken; here is the proof."

Madhudviṣa: They would say that there is a way of life which is perfect, but all men are imperfect. There is a way of life.

Prabhupāda: Yes, therefore they . . . because you are imperfect, therefore you have to accept the leadership of a perfect person.

Madhudviṣa: They will say no one is perfect.

Prabhupāda: No, that is the . . . that is your ignorance.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You have never seen such . . .

Prabhupāda: Now, just like blind man says: "Nobody is with eyes. Because I am blind, so everyone is blind." Ātmavat manyate jagat. That is the way.

Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, the whole thing is actually nonsense, because Marx himself in his old age became senile and died in a crazy condition.

Prabhupāda: Yes, he must be. He was crazy always. Many, many leaders die like that.

Trivikrama: Every leader.

Madhudviṣa: They will point out that our ācāryas also died. You say that Marx died, so they will say: "Your ācāryas also died."

Prabhupāda: Dying, that . . . there is difference of dying. But nobody, he died . . . they did not die a crazy. That is the superexcellence.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, he died gloriously.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Not only that, that he prepared himself, "Now I am going to die. Now I am sleeping. You just pierce with your arrow." So where is that death? Even that death is perfect.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, it's glorified from time immemorial.

Trivikrama: Like Haridāsa Ṭhākura.

Prabhupāda: Actually it is not death, but if you take it as death, that is also glorified.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's wonderful.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Look at Lord Caitanya's disappearance. Wonderful.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: A leader means that he's following a system. So what are the criterion of . . .?

Prabhupāda: That already told. He does not commit any mistake.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that I understand.

Prabhupāda: He is not illusioned, he is not a cheater, and he is perfect.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So now you've defined a perfect leader. What is a perfect system? What are the criterion for a perfect system?

Prabhupāda: Perfect system means from which we do not suffer. That's all.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No suffering.

Prabhupāda: No suffering.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So that is the main criterion.

Prabhupāda: Yes. We are always hankering after happiness. So we do not like suffering. So if there is no suffering, that is perfect system.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Can you point out any time in history when there existed such a perfect system?

Prabhupāda: It is always existing.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Even now?

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Otherwise why you are sticking to this? This is the proof. You are all young men, you have given up everything. Why you are sticking to Kṛṣṇa consciousness?

Revatinandana: In the West so many young men are joining different groups.

Prabhupāda: They may be rascals. Therefore, therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu said arupay brahmanda. (break) . . . told me it is full. But people coming and going, it looks very nice.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Like a house when it has no occupants, it's not so nice as when there are people moving about.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Canakya Paṇḍita says, putra-hīnaṁ gṛhaṁ śūnyam, "In a home where there is no children—sons and daughters—it is zero."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Just like a body without a soul.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Caitya-guru kidhar tha? (Where was Caitya guru?) (break) You are not going to China?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, we are not so impressed by roṭī here, but it is really a . . .

Prabhupāda: Very nice, a good news. You are eating nicely. That gives me pleasure.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I mean, everybody is so satisfied. This . . . what is it? Shantilal is just a wonderful cook.

Prabhupāda: So just give him the leadership of cooking everywhere. (break) When the prasāda is supplied?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: At one o'clock.

Prabhupāda: So you can send me at half past one?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Oh, yes, it can be kept warm very easily. Hot capatis, he says, for hundreds of people.

Prabhupāda: Hot. That is wanted. That I had asked. Therefore it is so filling.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, everything is hot. (break) . . . not so . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no. Prasādam, when it is supplied from the temple, in any condition it is prasādam. So Communists should be impressed that, "You are trying to establish a perfect society. That is your philosophy. So unless there is perfect leader, how you can establish?" This is the way.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And we know what the qualities of a perfect leader are, "We don't find that you have any such persons."

Prabhupāda: No, phalena paricīyate, by result. (kīrtana as they approach temple)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, if we can convince them, then they can demand to come there, maybe . . . (break) (end)