760605 - Morning Walk - Los Angeles

Morning Walks by Date, 1976

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

760605MW-LOS ANGELES - June 05, 1976 - 42:49 Minutes

(in car)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . had been a kīrtana leader in his previous lifetime, how could he take so naturally to Sanskrit and chanting like that?

Prabhupāda: This boy?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. He's just like a Bengali kīrtana leader. He joined the movement when he was only sixteen years old. Very . . .

Rāmeśvara: Jagannātha dāsa has just come back from Vṛndāvana. I think he's going to help on the books again. That will speed things up. Everything is going slowly through Sanskrit still.

Prabhupāda: (looking at bones) Chicken?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, some animal, bigger animal.

Rāmeśvara: Ribs? Lamb, sheep. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . kill. Simply kill. Paśu-ghna. As soon as you become animal killer, Kṛṣṇa consciousness finished. Parīkṣit Mahārāja, vinā paśu-ghnāt. Except the persons who are killers of animals, everyone will be interested.

nivṛtta-tarṣair upagīyamānād

bhavauṣadhāc chrotra-mano-'bhirāmāt

ka uttamaśloka-guṇānuvādāt

virajyeta pumān vinā paśu-ghnāt

(SB 10.1.4)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One good thing is that there is generally a growing movement amongst American people, and I don't know about other countries, for vegetarianism. People are becoming more and more . . . I think it is due to our books, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Book distribution, we are educating the people in that way.

Prabhupāda: Actually, we are educating. That's a fact.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Many vegetarian societies now. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . they say, Santa Monica?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, it is cleaner there.

Rāmeśvara: Yesterday you suggested that I send groups of our brahmacāriṇīs to that farm in Oregon where Yamunā Mātājī is staying, but I was thinking that actually, she is a very, very wonderful preacher, and if she can visit our temples more often, then she can . . . in other words, instead of . . . it's more expensive and difficult to send so many people to her . . .

Prabhupāda: So, do that.

Rāmeśvara: Otherwise, she can come to us.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's also a healthier environment, I think. It's a little . . .

Rāmeśvara: She lives alone with Dīna-tāriṇī. She doesn't have much association. She's keeping herself apart a little bit.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, I think, that's one . . . there's one disadvantage is that they have a little bit of a . . . their attitude is a little bit separatist from ISKCON in the sense of keeping aloof, and if the girls go there and live there, they may develop that same mentality. It might be better for her to come to the temples to teach.

Prabhupāda: Then make arrangement. I have no objection.

Rāmeśvara: (laughs) She has objection. That's the difficulty. We can't force her.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's the problem. And if that's her feeling, then if you send people there they'll get the same. (break)

Prabhupāda: Worshiping Deity.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Oh, they're doing that beautifully, and they're expert cooks. They're very good devotees.

Rāmeśvara: They could just be so valuable to helping our temples if they agreed to preach to our devotees. They could train. (break) . . . brought the reporters from Time magazine over to see our temple. I had Mother Yamunā prepare some prasādam, and she was also serving them, and then she was explaining about prasādam and preaching. So I could understand that as long as she stays on that farm, she's limiting herself, because she's an excellent preacher. She could be very valuable, expert preacher. In her . . . their idea is that they would like to make their farm a little bigger, with more women living with them.

Prabhupāda: I like that idea.

Rāmeśvara: There will be no man to help give advice, just the women manage it all themselves.

Prabhupāda: Just like in Vṛndāvana there is bhajanāśrama, they're only women.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śyāmabhajis?

Prabhupāda: Not śyāmabhajis, but bhajanāśrama.

Rāmeśvara: So that's a good idea. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . with man is dangerous for both. I, I have given that: man is good, woman is good, when they come together—bad. Both of them bad.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bad. We see that.

Rāmeśvara: They say that that farmland in Oregon is too small, very small.

Prabhupāda: Let them organize that.

Rāmeśvara: Jagadīśa was telling me that there are some boys who are donating seventy-five acres of farmland about four hours from Los Angeles. It is the best farmland in California. So he wants to develop this, because they have given it to him, specifically to make a farm and eventually to have the children of gurukula live there. So perhaps we could invite Yamunā.

Prabhupāda: As soon as you make gurukula, government immediately stops.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Will stop. That's the same in . . . (indistinct) . . . the same problem. The government can't raise objection. Better to keep it real small, decentralize. Children are learning, then they are sent to India when they're eight or ten. The children here are doing very nicely. The children here are doing as nicely as in Dallas, I've seen that.

Prabhupāda: Yes, small groups, small group.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, and it forces all the temples to have a community, which is nice.

Prabhupāda: Government rascals will come, "Do this, do that, do that," and they will never be satisfied, because their business is to tease.

Hari-śauri: Simply to harass.

Prabhupāda: Harass. So that they may not extend this philosophy, no meat-eating, Then their business will be spoiled.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. We represent a threat to them.

Prabhupāda: Yes, therefore they do not like this program anywhere. No meat-eating, no drinking, no illicit sex. Then what remains? Everything is finished.

Rāmeśvara: Actually, we have many enemies in America.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, naturally.

Hari-śauri: Everywhere.

Rāmeśvara: When we printed that Kṛṣṇa Consciousness is Authorized, that little booklet, we gave the names of professors who appreciated our movement, and their school, their college. So there are some demons in America who . . . well, like we gave the name and address of the professor in that book. So some demons in America got a hold of that book, and wrote all the professors letters blaspheming our movement and Your Divine Grace and telling them that, "Professor, you should withdraw your name. You are giving your support to a horrible movement." So we have many enemies.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Did the professors write back?

Rāmeśvara: Dr. Judah got a copy of one such letter, and he mailed it to Jayādvaita, so I've seen it. Very, very blasphemous, poisonous, but it was written by a very educated person. I could tell by the style of writing that the person who wrote that letter was very literate.

Prabhupāda: He did not disclose his name?

Rāmeśvara: Yes, his name and address.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That person gave his name and address, who wrote that letter?

Rāmeśvara: Yes, yes.

Prabhupāda: So we cannot bring it to the court?

Rāmeśvara: Perhaps. I'll see. But this is an example.

Prabhupāda: No, I know that.

Rāmeśvara: It is mostly from parents. Parents have had bad experience that they have lost their children to this movement.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that's the big propaganda now. The . . . there's one . . . there's a number of men who kidnap, their professional business is to kidnap devotees and other people who belong to other groups like ours. And they're paid by the parents to kidnap the children back, and they call it deprogram the children, deprogramming.

Hari-śauri: Prabhupāda saw that article on that Ted Patrick.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I saw it in New York recently. Our president, Ādikeśa, he went up against Ted Patrick on television, big television show, and he completely defeated him. So Ted Patrick was saying that, you know, that these people are all fanatics. So Ādikeśa, at the end, he said, so, if we're fanatics, then the Pope is even more fanatical, so why don't you deprogram him? And everybody laughed at that Ted Patrick. (laughter)

Rāmeśvara: He says we teach our . . . I mean he has many arguments. He knows all about the incidents in Germany and Japan, and he uses this against us.

Prabhupāda: He's collected all these bad.

Rāmeśvara: "Lying and cheating," he says.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: A few devotees who have joined him, who left and have joined him, they have given him this inside information, so he tries . . . actually, though, no strong devotee can be changed by him. He only gets the very new men. So now he's written a book.

Prabhupāda: About us?

Rāmeśvara: About his experiences of kidnapping our students and others.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What is the book called?

Rāmeśvara: It's called Let My Children Go.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Let Our Children Go, yes.

Rāmeśvara: So we have got our lawyer to start a lawsuit against him, because in that book they are blaspheming us like anything. And this very big publisher, who published the book, has spent lots of money in advertising. And the advertising always uses our name, because it's controversial. They always try to get people to buy the book, saying: "Now you can read about the dangerous Hare Kṛṣṇa people."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (laughs) It's a good propaganda, I think.

Rāmeśvara: But we're trying to stop that.

Prabhupāda: America is feeling the strength of Hare Kṛṣṇa movement.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, they're getting pinched. You have really come as an aggressor, Prabhupāda. (Prabhupāda laughs) Actually, I think we are the most dangerous revolutionaries in the whole world.

Prabhupāda: To the rākṣasas.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And everyone is rākṣasa practically. If the government ever understood your mission in coming here, they would never have granted you this permanent residence visa. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: They thought, "It is very nice, the Swāmījī is preaching about God." (break) So don't read newspaper.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Don't what, Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Don't read newspaper.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, no. (laughter) Another smash.

Prabhupāda: So many don'ts, add one another.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Don't read newspapers.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Then next they'll make so much propaganda against you.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So we should do that. Whenever we preach to anyone and we tell them . . . I tell them that I have not gone to the movie house for ten years, they say: "Oh, how horrible! Inhuman!" (laughter)

Rādhā-vallabha: If we tell them not to read the newspaper, they'll think we're telling them to stop breathing.

Prabhupāda: They . . . don't read . . . you say: "I am not reading any other literatures." Just like you say that, "I have not gone to cinema house." It is another way of saying that, "Don't go to cinema."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The Christian missionary was trying to convert the people, so they would not listen. But then when he told that, ah . . .

Hṛdayānanda: In hell there are no newspapers.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . in hell there are no newspapers, they went, "Oh!" (laughter)

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Trivikrama: Coal miners.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, coal miners.

Prabhupāda: No newspaper; it is horrible. Ask the health department of government that, "You write on the cigarette box: 'It is injurious.' " What is that?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: We are preaching that. Give us some money.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, we're helping them.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Similarly, intoxication. And see practically, at least take some certificate from them.

Hṛdayānanda: If they find out that the solution is with God, they would rather have the disease.

Prabhupāda: Apart from God, see practically. (break)

Rādhā-vallabha: . . . money from the taxes on these things. They don't want them to be abolished. The government make thousands and millions of dollars by taxing the cigarettes and liquor; so they don't want these things abolished. (break)

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Dānavīra: I'm in charge of the New Bhakta program in Los Angeles, and yesterday one boy called up the temple, and he was seventeen years old, and he said: "Five years ago, when I was coming out of a store, I received this Back to Godhead magazine. So I took it home—I was twelve years old—and I began reading it. I read six pages, but my mother, she was a strict Baptist, and she took it away, I couldn't read it. I never saw devotees again until this time." He called up. Yesterday he came and joined the temple and became your disciple. (Prabhupāda chuckles)

Devotees: Jaya.

Rāmeśvara: Just by reading one word of your books.

Prabhupāda: What is that word?

Rāmeśvara: Any word. (laughter) "Surrender to Kṛṣṇa!" (break) . . . making almost ten devotees, new men, every month. And they're all coming from your books, from reading your books—every one of them.

Prabhupāda: Therefore I am insisting, "Spread books."

Dānavīra: Śrīla Prabhupāda, there was one boy who just joined a few months ago, and he had been reading your books, and he came to join the temple. He had graduated from college and he's been to law school, and we found out after some time that his father, his name was Dr. Royal McClain, he was a very, very big preacher in the South, and he had his own television program.

Rāmeśvara: Christian. His father was the biggest Christian preacher in the South. He had his own TV show. Very big preacher, very strict Christian, and his son joined our movement. So the father calls up the son, "How could you desert our religion and join this Kṛṣṇa movement?" So . . . (laughter)

Dānavīra: He explained how he was actually feeling real love of God now for the first time in his life.

Rāmeśvara: He convinced his father that he should stay in our movement.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Recently, in New York, my parents came to visit me. You know they . . . actually, they didn't come to see me, they came to the restaurant, but I happened to be there. (Prabhupāda laughs) So, ah, they related a very unusual incident that one of their friends is a lawyer in New York. So they were having dinner with him the other day, and he mentioned that recently he had gone to Las Vegas for a vacation. In Las Vegas there are many gambling casinos. So when he was about to depart on the plane, one of his friends gave him a five dollar bill and told him that, "In order that your gambling should be fortunate, the first good person you see there, you give this five dollar bill to him, and it will automatically bring you good luck." So the man went to Las Vegas, and when he got out at the airport, one of our devotees approached him. And this gentleman happens to be a lawyer who's fighting against us to keep us out of the New York airport. He's representing the airline company. So he didn't know it was one of our devotees because they were in the regular clothes, civilian clothes. So our devotee said: "Please, we're doing good work, educating people, you kindly give a donation." So the man thought: "Well, my friend gave me this," he gave him five dollars, and naturally, the devotee gave him a book. So the man didn't look at it, but he went into the taxi, the lawyer, and then when he looked he realized (laughter) he was supporting the enemy. And another incident they related is that they go on vacation to South America. So they were in the Amazon, in the jungle, in the Amazon . . .

Hṛdayānanda: Oh, I heard this when I . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . and they, right in the middle of the jungle, suddenly the devotees were there. (laughter) Hṛdayānanda's men were there preaching, and they said they could not imagine that they were in this most unusual place, no one was around, but suddenly Hare Kṛṣṇa devotees appeared. (laughter)

Hṛdayānanda: They told me they met Tamāla Kṛṣṇa's mother.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Rādhā-vallabha: If he gets a book in an unusual place, they always say, "You people are everywhere."

Rāmeśvara: When we tell the public that we only have maybe ten thousand devotees, they are very surprised that there are so few Hare Kṛṣṇa devotees, because they see us everywhere.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Therefore we're the most enthusiastic missionaries in the world. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . say that all the ten thousand devotees, each of them is a moon, not a star.

Devotees: Jaya!

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And you are the sun, Śrīla Prabhupāda. We are just reflecting your light. (break)

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: . . . do the work of many stars.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Ekaś candras tamo hanti (Cāṇakya Paṇḍita). Stars, they cannot do anything; they simply glitter, that's all. Glowworms.

Rāmeśvara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, one boy joined our temple here, he was attending a very well known college, and straight A's in physics, a scientist. So his parents were a little concerned. His father is a very big professor at California Institute of Technology, the biggest technical school in America. His mother is a professor of anthropology, and she is in the family of millionaires from Germany, German industrialists. So they were very concerned. So they came to visit their boy at our temple, and now the mother is coming regularly, giving nice donations and sometimes spending the weekend.

Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct)

Dānavīra: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So give him nice. He's living with us?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: He was given one room? No?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Dānavīra, was he given a room?

Dānavīra: We gave him a place to study every day.

Trivikrama: He also has a Ph.D., from Heidelberg University, in philosophy.

Prabhupāda: Therefore, I say that take care of him. He's a good.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The other way, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Svarūpa: Now that the Back to Godhead has become so very good in quality, when the people finish reading it they see our ad for membership and they write in for information on membership, and they are becoming our members, which means that each month they pledge donations, and they are on our mailing list. They receive newsletters; we even send them prasāda in the mail. And now we've got 250 members each month donating to the Book Trust . . . altogether are donating four thousand dollars each month, and it is increasing.

Prabhupāda: So increase the number of Back to Godhead.

Svarūpa: Yes. As the quantity and quality increases in Back to Godhead, the membership program is increasing, and orders for the literature through Back to Godhead increases.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's our best means of advertising, that magazine.

Mahendra: Every day, the mail order department is delivering to the airport, or to the post office, a big stack of books to be mailed out.

Prabhupāda: So why not ask them to make a post office here, ISKCON post office?

Svarūpa: Each day fifty letters are coming. Some are inquiries, some are orders. (break) . . . program, Prabhupāda, we continue writing letters to these people until they become devotees.

Prabhupāda: That's nice.

Svarūpa: And last year thirty became devotees. They wrote us letters saying that they have moved into a temple and that they are very happy now.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Svarūpa, he does all this writing—he's the secretary. He keeps correspondence with all of these people every month.

Rāmeśvara: In your book, there is an invitation in every book: "For more information, write to the secretary."

Prabhupāda: Yes, I've seen.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That is Svarūpa. He does all that. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . avasthiti. When one remains in svarūpa, that is called mukti. (laughter) Svarūpeṇa avasthitiḥ (SB 2.10.6). (break) The best place in Los Angeles for walking.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Wow. This is the best place in Los Angeles for walking. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . still the sea beach is here.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very clean.

Rādhā-vallabha: It was Hṛdayānanda Mahārāja's idea to come here.

Rāmeśvara: We've been planning for some time to prepare one flyer advertising our Vṛndāvana guesthouse, because every year college professors take students to India. They all go to see the Taj Mahal, so they pass through Mathurā, so they can easily stop.

Prabhupāda: Agra they must go. Every foreigner, they go to Agra.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Agra.

Rāmeśvara: So we want to make some propaganda, and Air India will help us distribute it. So the question is, these students and professors, they cannot control their senses from smoking and so on. So do we want to allow them to stay in our guesthouse, because it is certain that they will smoke in their room.

Prabhupāda: That is very difficult thing.

Rāmeśvara: That is the only question. And then if you think it is all right that we still invite them, then we can prepare this flyer.

Prabhupāda: You, first of all you GBC think, then and act. Make one room, smoking room. That's all right. Just like a, that kind of restriction is there in the airplane, smoking; not, none. So you keep a room separately, a smoking room.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One time when I was staying in the Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma mandira, I saw a man smoking a bīḍī in his room. If that happens—in the bedroom—should the managers go and say this is not permitted?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They should. They should go down to the smoking room.

Prabhupāda: "Kindly go to the smoking room."

Devotee: The Deities in Vṛndāvana are in need of paraphernalia, and . . . which is more important, that the Deities get Their paraphernalia, or should the money be used . . .

Prabhupāda: What is that paraphernalia? Who are asking?

Devotee: Who asked me? I'm asking you which is more important.

Prabhupāda: I'll have to . . . if you want to give some money, you transfer to the Bank of America, account number 1606.

Rāmeśvara: The Māyāpur-Vṛndāvana Trust Fund? Oh.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And let me know that, "I've transferred so much money."

Devotee: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Then I will do it.

Jagannātha: The Deity pūjā has been improving in Vṛndāvana. Right now Nitāi is the head pūjārī there.

Prabhupāda: Then it's all right?

Jagannātha: And he is making many improvements.

Prabhupāda: No. He can. All of you can, if you like.

Rāmeśvara: This is, Śrīla Prabhupāda, Allen, who is becoming very enthusiastic to support our movement.

Prabhupāda: Thank you.

Rāmeśvara: His wife is very, very devoted.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: She is always insisting that he give more. (break) (in car)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What about July?

Rāmeśvara: And this month, coming up, at the end of June we are printing one million copies, just for one month's sale, for this Bicentennial celebration. There'll be so many people coming to the parks and monuments to observe this event. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . Kalyan, the paper, most important theistic paper in India. And during Harivan Prasad's time, they were selling all ninety-five thousand. Between one lakh, nine thousands.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Nine thousand. Now it is ten times that. That organization now is finished.

Prabhupāda: Yes. There was no life.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No.

Prabhupāda: But it was a good organization, that's all. On account of good organization, it was going on. But there was no life. The Marwaris, they can organize business very nicely.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: First class, yes. Same thing with even someone like Swami Chinmayananda's group. It is organized nicely, but there is no . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no more organization also.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Really?

Prabhupāda: Organization is also finished.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. Jaya.

Prabhupāda: Mean . . . dead life organization, how long it will go on? Aprāṇasyeva dehasya maṇḍanaṁ loka-rañjanam . . . (Hari-bhakti-sudhodaya 3.11). If this body is dead, how long keep it alive by simply painting? Is it possible?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No.

Prabhupāda: It will decompose.

Rāmeśvara: So then everything—the Church, everything.

Prabhupāda: Artificially . . . gundan camas kapalethabada-masa. By artificial means you can keep a thing alive for six months. But what is destiny, that will go on all the time. Baḍa māsa. Baḍa māsa: "all the year."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Just like that girl's body.

Prabhupāda: Gundan camas kapalethabada . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There was one girl that had some disease, she was unconscious for . . . how long? A year and a half?

Rāmeśvara: She was, practically speaking, dead, but by artificial means they kept the heart pumping.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: For one and a half years.

Rāmeśvara: And they thought that, "If I pull out the electrical plug on this machine, then it will be murder." She was already dead, and the doctors fixed this machine to keep her heart . . . now they were afraid of pull out the plug.

Prabhupāda: Not dead. Not dead. (chuckles) Dead cannot be continued by electricity. That is not possible.

Hari-śauri: Spirit soul was still there.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The soul was still there, but not in that condition.

Rāmeśvara: So then there was no movement, no thinking—everything was . . .

Prabhupāda: Unconscious, that may be.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Terrible karma. Like a tree.

Hari-śauri: I remember reading in England there was somebody that had been in a coma for seventeen years.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Hari-śauri: They had been in a coma, in a hospital, for seventeen years.

Prabhupāda: Seventeen years?

Hari-śauri: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bad karma.

Prabhupāda: And still he was taken care of?

Hari-śauri: Hmm.

Prabhupāda: Good patient. (laughter) And then after? He revived?

Hari-śauri: No. He was still in a coma. It was just an article that he'd been in a coma for so long, and there was no hope that he would revive or anything.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That description you give in the Bhāgavatam, Śrīla Prabhupāda, at the time of death . . . it's in the Fourth Canto. It's very, very graphic. During that Purañjana, the story of Purañjana, how the fire starts to build, an attack is given on the kingdom. Oh, boy, anyone who reads that will become very much . . .

Rāmeśvara: Sober.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . sobered up. These books are a real slap. They make you awake very quickly. We always . . . I used to lecture from that to the new men to bring them out of their māyā quickly. People don't like to think of death. They try to forget it. It's so fearful to them. And that brings all of the horrors of death very graphically in front of them. You describe how the soul is kept . . . the body is burning like a big fire, and the soul is trying to get out, but all of the holes are blocked. Just like a man in a house that's burning and he can't get out. Fearful condition. (break)

Rāmeśvara: . . . numbers of men, big temples, it is all due to our books, to your books. So I was thinking that if one day this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement becomes so powerful that even it is giving instruction to governments, that will also be because of . . .

Prabhupāda: That is very easy. If you increase the number of your devotees, government hears. That is not very difficult thing. Simply you have to increase our supporters; then the government is there.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually, although the actual number of initiated devotees is still few, there is a growing . . . ever-growing number of sympathizers.

Prabhupāda: Supporters, yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Tremendous number, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: So you make good supporter, then government is yours.

Rāmeśvara: Then it's all based on selling your books more and more.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Oh, yes.

Rāmeśvara: That is the principal way to increase the supporters and thus deliver the whole world.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: When people ask me, "How many members do you have, how many people?" I don't answer any more "Five thousand," or something like that. Now I tell them many millions. Because the thing is when they ask . . . when you ask someone how many Christians are there in America, of such and such sect, they don't mean priests, they mean also the people who are coming.

Rāmeśvara: Congregation.

Prabhupāda: Congregation.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So we should give that number, not as five thousand, but as so-and-so many millions.

Prabhupāda: That I say, when people ask me that how many followers you have got in India, "They're wholesale."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The whole country.

Rāmeśvara: The whole country. Yes.

Hari-śauri: Yes. That man was amazed when on the plane when he asked me, he said: "How many members of your religion are there?" So I said: "Well, in India there are hundreds of millions." He couldn't imagine it.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's what we should say, two million, like that. American, five hundred thousand. Why should we say five thousand?

Hari-śauri: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Before you were mentioning that we should start to try to get on friendly terms with some of these governmental people. Would that be done in the same way as they do in India? Just like we have so many government ministers that have become Life Members and things like that. Is that possible to do in America?

Prabhupāda: Yes. There are many government men. Why not? Human psychology is the same. How many lines in . . .?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How many lanes?

Rāmeśvara: Four lanes.

Prabhupāda: That is biggest.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, there is highways with six lanes, and there's even some with seven. Yes, fourteen lanes. In other words, fourteen lanes, both sides.

Rāmeśvara: Every family has to have two or three cars, otherwise, they are not respected.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Also, every family has to have two or three televisions; otherwise, there's fighting. Because the husband wants to see the one show, the wife another, and the children another. So at least two or three televisions, two or three cars.

Prabhupāda: In India also, those who are rich.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Getting like that.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: In Bombay.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bhogilal Patel had twenty-three cars. Just for him and his wife and father. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: Yes. They are spending money to save income tax. They have got enough income. So instead of giving to the income tax, they are thinking that, "Why not provide some serfers, some drivers, some servants, and repair the house every year." In this way, spend money. (laughing) It is good policy. Money's distributed to the poor instead of going to the government pocket.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's got at least thirty-five servants, and it is only father and son and daughter-in-law.

Prabhupāda: That's all. (laughing) No children even.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Prabhupāda stayed there. They gave us so much, er, attention.

Prabhupāda: They are very favorable to us. Especially the father.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes, Bhogilal. I remember when I first approached him for a donation, I asked him, "Please give twenty-five thousand rupees." I was the one who was approaching him. So then he said: "I can give ten thousand." So I said . . . all I did is I . . . just I said: "Please give more." He said: "All right, twenty-five thousand." (laughter) It didn't take very much preaching, he's so kind-hearted. And his son Pranlal was also nice boy.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He's very intelligent. He knows what we are doing. His wife also, that young girl.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, very nice. They're actually a little aristocratic, I think.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They have palatial buildings in Ahmedabad, oh.

Prabhupāda: That, when I was staying there, that young girl, the daughter, she was always taking care, always, "Swāmījī, what do you want? What can I serve you?"

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That was a wonderful stay. That was when Mrs. Nair surrendered. That house . . . (laughs)

Prabhupāda: The Bhogilal was coming daily.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: To talk with you?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And Pranlal was offering any help that he could. And they gave our . . . the secretaries were also treated very nicely. They gave us each a car.

Rāmeśvara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, when I first came to this, to your movement, the first thing I was told is that Lord Caitanya's movement in this age will, like a moon, rise for ten thousand years. I was told that number, ten thousand years. Is that true?

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Rāmeśvara: And then after that, they will . . .

Prabhupāda: This movement will go for ten thousand years without any impediment.

Rāmeśvara: So that means increasing, because it's the nature of the spiritual energy.

Prabhupāda: It increases; you should take this opportunity. You work sincerely, it will increase, it will increase.

Rāmeśvara: Ten thousand years, there is a good opportunity to . . .

Prabhupāda: Many fallen souls will be delivered back to home, back to Godhead.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very encouraging.

Rāmeśvara: You once said that Christianity will die out. We will be the only religion left.

Prabhupāda: I do not remember that.

Rāmeśvara: Someone told me like that.

Prabhupāda: Christianity's already dead. We are purchasing the churches.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That means dead.

Hari-śauri: And their priests are coming to join us as well.

Prabhupāda: See, this temple, this was closed. There were no men. And now balcony. In the same place, the same countrymen. That is the proof, this building. These boys and girls and men, they are not imported from India.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They are formerly Christians and Jews.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: These demons that are trying to challenge us, they cannot stop our movement for ten thousand years.

Prabhupāda: What is their challenge? They have no . . . nothing to challenge. Unless they are, what is called, violent. That much they can do, like demons.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That, you think that they will do that eventually?

Prabhupāda: No, now people are civilized. It is . . . but they want to do it.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They are thinking. So . . .

Prabhupāda: But on the garb of civilized person it looks odd. Especially in America, when religious freedom is there. Otherwise they would have done. (break) . . . real peace formula, anyone who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he's rascal. This is very revolting. "Because I am not Kṛṣṇa con . . . because I am a rascal?" "Yes." (laughter)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, they don't like that.

Prabhupāda: (laughing) This is too much.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Even you were challenging their gurus. That they get very angry at. Sadajī will always tell me, "I like your Prabhupāda very much, but he is always criticizing all of our gurus."

Rāmeśvara: Like Ramakrishna and this cheater magician.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "He calls them cheaters, rascals, rogues, in public." At all the pāṇḍāls you used to do that. Oh, they couldn't stand it.

Hari-śauri: That man that stopped me in the street . . .

Prabhupāda: What can I say? Kṛṣṇa says. I am simply a child, repeating the words of Kṛṣṇa.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, you always tell them that, "It is not what I'm saying, Kṛṣṇa is saying." But that gets them even angrier.

Prabhupāda: We are Kṛṣṇa conscious. We are obliged to say like that.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That makes them even more angry.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Actually Kṛṣṇa says. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15)—finished. (laughing) They cannot bring any defamation. We can say in the court that we are simply repeating like parrot. That's all. We have pledged to become parrot of Kṛṣṇa. That's all. (end)