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760705 - Morning Walk - Washington D.C.

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

760705MW-WASHINGTON DC - July 05, 1976 - 59:06 Minutes

(in car)

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, as young children we used to have to put our hand over our heart and say a pledge to the flag, in America. And if one didn't say it, they were thrown out of school.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They changed that law now. It's not required. It used to be.

Prabhupāda: Mental concoction will be changed. Manorathenāsati dhāvato bahiḥ (SB 5.18.12). Their only business is mental concoction: today it is good, tomorrow it is bad. That is mental concoction. If mind likes it, it is good; if mind does not like it, it is bad. No standard. (break)

Hari-śauri: They have hospitals for animals, if your animal gets sick.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Mostly dogs and cats, birds.

Hari-śauri: The animal that was making the noise was the man on the porch. (laughs)

Vipina: Many people have horses in the neighborhood. They have horse shows, Śrīla Prabhupāda. They spend lots of money on fancy horses, and in this way, one becomes greater than another by showing his horses. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . slam the door. The door is secure or not?

Vipina: It should be locked. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . try to find out that happiness from this body, that is mistake. That happiness is there in the spirit soul, not this body. Happiness is our right. Ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta-sūtra 1.1.12). By nature, we want happiness. Mistaking, where is the happiness. The living being, he is to enjoy happiness. But they are trying to give happiness to the body, which is dead. Gatāsūn agatāsūṁś ca nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ (BG 2.11). The body is dead from the very beginning, so they are trying to draw happiness from the dead matter.

Hari-śauri: Chewing the chewed.

Prabhupāda: Yes, and that is not being fulfilled. Therefore planning: sometimes this way, sometimes that way. Manorathenāsati dhāvato bahiḥ (SB 5.18.12). Mental concoction. Real platform they are missing. Sometimes sitting down, sometimes standing up. (laughter) Happiness. When tired up, then come down. Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30).

Hari-śauri: They come out for a quiet sit-down in the countryside, and they bunch together, hundreds at a time.

Rūpānuga: They are coming to watch the fireworks. You see, from here, the fireworks are going to be very high in the sky. They can see it from this point. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . celebration, independence from our point of view.

Hari-śauri: From our point of view, it doesn't have any meaning. For a person, a conditioned soul, to think that he's independent . . .

Prabhupāda: It is foolishness.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They think they're free from being controlled by the British, for example. Free from being controlled.

Prabhupāda: There is some meaning. That's all right. But where is your independence? You are fully under the control of the laws of nature. So where is your independence?

Yadubara: There is none.

Prabhupāda: Simply dog dancing is independence?

Bṛṣākapi: Ultimately, they are declaring their independence of God, Kṛṣṇa. They can do as they like.

Prabhupāda: Then where is that independence? You can declare anything. A crazy man can say anything, but where is your independence?

Rūpānuga: In fact, they are bound up.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Where is the question of independence? Whatever you do not want, it is being forced upon you. So where is your independence? Nobody wants any miseries. So everyone is miserable condition. Struggle for existence means to get out of miserable condition. So where is independence? Now there is mist. How you can say you are independent? You cannot drive this mist, this fog. Unless sun rises, it cannot be cleared. So where is your independence? There may be so many accidents. Actually, it so happens. But you do not want. But here is an unfortunate. So where is your independence? It is not under your control. If the sun rises, then it can be dissipated, otherwise, there is no question. Poor thoughts. What is here, this park?

Bṛṣākapi: That's a private community.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Perhaps everyone is hopeful that the sun will rise for them.

Prabhupāda: Yes, sun is not your father's servant. He may not. It is not under your control. That is the point. You may think so.

Hari-śauri: They can only be hopeful.

Prabhupāda: That's it. Hope against hope. Independence means fully under your control. Whatever you like, you can do. Where is that independence?

prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni
guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ
kartāham iti manyate
(BG 3.27)

Foolishly thinking that "I am independent." Has anyone anything to say? Hmm?

Bṛṣākapi: I was thinking that they are talking of independence, but they cannot even become independent of old age and disease. Their body, they try to control things, but their own body is out of control.

Prabhupāda: So many things.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: One may say that if there's no independence, then where is the question of initiative in the material world, taking initiative?

Prabhupāda: Initiative? What is that question? Initiative I understand, but do you think that by taking initiative of independence you become independent, like this? By dancing and fireworks, you become independent? This is initiative, dancing like dogs, (sings) "We are independent, we are independent." (laughter) Does it have any meaning? Dance like a dog, that's all.

Hari-śauri: It's a big show, that's all.

Yadubara: They will say that they can do so many things.

Prabhupāda: What they can do? They cannot do anything. At any moment you can be kicked out, "Get out."

Yadubara: But they have choice within māyā. Isn't that a fact?

Prabhupāda: Choice?

Yadubara: They have choice what to do in the material world, many different fields. They will say that they can do this or that.

Prabhupāda: Many fields, that is also conditioned. That is conditioned; that is not independence.

Hari-śauri: One has choice to become a dog or a cat or . . .

Prabhupāda: Everything is conditioned. Therefore it is called conditioned life. There is no question of independence. That is foolishness. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, that they are not independent—completely under the control of laws of material nature, and still they are thinking independent.

Rūpānuga: It is like a prisoner in the prison house thinking he has some freedom.

Prabhupāda: That freedom is daṇḍa jāne rājā yena nadīte cubāya. Drowning the man in the water and, "Now you have independence, so breathe." (laughter) So he breathes in, "Ah! Ah!" "All right, you are now a little relieved. All right, again. Again become drown." "Oh! Save me, save me, save me, save me." "All right," take out, "now breathe, independently." This is independence. Daṇḍa jāne rājā yena nadīte cubāya. The rascal does not know "I am breathing independent, but at any moment I can be drowned again." Very correct example, daṇḍa jāne rājā yena nadīte cubāya. No independence. Independence is only there when you fully surrender to Kṛṣṇa. You surrender your all independence to Kṛṣṇa, then there is. "Kṛṣṇa, I have foolishly acted as independent so many lives. Now I surrender all my independence at Your lotus feet. If You like, You can kill me, if You like, You can . . ." that is independence. Otherwise, there is no independence. All foolishness. Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā (BG 3.27). By false egotism, he's thinking that "I am independent."

Rūpānuga: He's misusing.

Prabhupāda: Misusing the energy. Yesterday, some two and half million the government has spent, and we also, combined together, we have spent ten million by power, gas, going there and coming, so many cars. Another ten million. So all these twelve million, three . . . thirteen million dollars spent for nothing. Dancing like dogs, independence, māyā. (break) (out of car) Ask him this question.

Hari-śauri: Prabhupāda was saying in the car that yesterday the American people were declaring their independence. So he's asking what was the value to it.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: What is the value of it? They are enjoying their senses.

Prabhupāda: Now dog dancing. What is that song? Dog dancing? I sang that song?

Hari-śauri: Oh. (sings) "We are independent, we are independent."

Svarūpa Dāmodara: (laughs) That is the spirit of patriotism.

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, you can say any name, any style or any trademark, but where is the independence? That is the question.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But Śrīla Prabhupāda blessed yesterday around the Capitol. There were so many people, and they seemed like they liked . . .

Prabhupāda: So many people, there are so many earthworms also. Ants also, gathered together. Does it mean they are independent? Hare Kṛṣṇa. You know the earthworms? They heap up earth and disappear. So you are . . . if you take it in that way, that big, big buildings, just like earthworms gathering up earth and then disappears. Actually that is the fact. Like the worms, we gather together and become a nation and apply all our energy, heaps of building, then finished. We go somewhere, you go somewhere. And who knows what he's going to be next life? Everything is going like that—family, community, national. Like the same earthworm, they gather so much huge ḍhipi . . . what is called ḍhipi in English?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Some sort of manure.

Prabhupāda: We are ḍhipi. We are ḍhipi. We ḍhipi. You have seen?

Devotee: Teepee?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, big heaps, mounds, hills?

Prabhupāda: Not hills. Anyway, small or big, they gather together and then goes away, finished by the laws of nature. Washington, he gave you independence, but where he is? What he is doing? Where is that person who gave you independence?

Vipina: Would you like to walk this way today, Prabhupāda?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: There is a basic difference between the earthworm and the man.

Prabhupāda: No difference. It is also living entity, you are also living entity.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But difference in the sense that the earthworm is, actually, it is not trying to violate the laws of nature. Just follows.

Prabhupāda: No, apart from that, the process of life is the same—biological. These rascals say that there is no soul of the animal, but is it correct biologically?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is biologically wrong.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You see the way physical and atomical constitution of the animal and the man, the same. If you say man has soul, then the animal has also soul. If you deny that man has no soul, then you can also deny. But so far physiological . . . they, in the biological laboratory, they dissect the frogs to see the similar arrangement. So how you can you say the frog has no soul? Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Sadāpūta: Śrīla Prabhupāda, on Saturday Svarūpa Dāmodara was talking about the scientific proof of the Absolute Truth from the Kṛṣṇa conscious point of view. And I wonder, when one realizes Kṛṣṇa, the Absolute Truth, does one also see like how the physical world is manifesting itself? Do we understand all physical laws, how chemicals are combining, or . . .? What do we actually understand when we understand the Absolute Truth?

Prabhupāda: Absolute Truth, there is direction. Scientific explanation is . . . he was showing the picture that everything is being performed under some direction, not whimsically. Therefore there is somebody dictating.

Sadāpūta: You see the cause of everything?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Vipina: These are the natural falls here, Prabhupāda, not man-made.

Prabhupāda: Ah, where?

Vipina: Not man-made. (break) It is not necessary to take millions of years for life to develop, because within five days an egg is there and life is being manifest. But scientists are saying it took millions of years to come to that stage where in five days it would only take life to become manifest.

Prabhupāda: Then why you are waiting millions of years? Accept that millions of years passed, now let us have it in five days. Why you are again asking to wait for millions of years, rascal, if it has passed? From the sky, Atlantic, wherefrom . . . big, big chunks like mountain constantly coming, cut-cut-cut-cut-cut-cut. In Canada, big, big chunks.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Ice?

Prabhupāda: Ice, flood, every second.

Hari-śauri: Down a fall?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Not from Canada; somewhere else, the Atlantic. And it is falling in the Atlantic Ocean. That broke the Titanic.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, iceberg.

Prabhupāda: Yes, iceberg. Throughout the whole year, every second coming. (break) . . . trees are fallen are grown like that?

Bṛṣākapi: Old trees, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Dead ones.

Prabhupāda: So the fall goes that side?

Rūpānuga: Yes. There's another place—I'm not exactly sure; I think it's down much further—where there's much bigger falls. This is just a small place. It's not the main falls. We can go there on another walk, I think, if you want to see the big fall.

Prabhupāda: Chicken is giving life to the egg within five days, and you are scientist, you have to wait for millions of years. So chicken is better than you. (laughter) Why, rascal, you claim as scientist? Better . . . a chicken is better than you. Chicken is giving just after sitting on the egg. In five days, there is living entity. You rascal, you have to wait. So why you talk? Better don't talk. It is better not to talk than to talk foolish. Where is the scientist?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: If they don't talk, they don't get jobs.

Prabhupāda: That's it. Then they'll say plainly that, "I'm hungry; give some food. Then I'll not talk nonsense. Give me some food." That's all. Take it. Tell the truth.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: See, if they talk these things, they can get money from the government, millions of dollars.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. So instead of talking all nonsense, tell freely that "I am hungry, give me some food."

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually, that's what happens in principle.

Prabhupāda: They have finished all their talks. So far as I know, these so-called scientists, they have finished their business. Now they have no other means than to bluff to get their salary.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, actually the research is also getting more and more difficult.

Prabhupāda: Yes, what they'll research? Everything finished.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Their imagination is running out.

Prabhupāda: That's all.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, the ideas are running out . . . (indistinct) . . . sciences. That's why now they are doing on the biological sciences mainly.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. There is another nonsense. Why they are checking the flow?

Vipina: The water is too rough for the boats to travel, so they made this artificial canal so boats could travel without getting wrecked, and they could transport their items of sense gratification in that way. They used to have mules that pulled the boats with ropes alongside here, these pathways, pulled them through the canal.

Prabhupāda: It will grow mosquito. Mosquito plant.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Mosquitoes . . . when the devotees came back from India, many got malaria, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So I think we got to do something next year.

Prabhupāda: Get a mosquito curtain. That's all.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, curtain is necessary.

Prabhupāda: Get a mosquito curtain. In India everywhere there is mosquito. I think in your country also.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, yes, many mosquitoes. They are also in Florida, many mosquitoes, when it rains.

Prabhupāda: Tropical climate, there is mosquitoes. (break) That is falls?

Hari-śauri: No, it's just a ravine.

Sadāpūta: One of the members of the temple here, Prabhupāda, is a doctor, and he was doing some research into malaria, saying that many of the chemicals that they were using to kill these mosquitoes in India are becoming ineffectual. And now the mosquitoes are bigger and they aren't able to control it, so malaria is going to be a problem during the breeding season this year, much worse problem they've created for themselves.

Prabhupāda: There is a place in India, Jabalpur, there is a fall passing, Narmada, and these stones are all marble, first class. Very nice place. I went there.

Hari-śauri: You were mentioning in Hawaii how there are planets where instead of having grains of sand on the beach, they have jewels.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Jewels.

Sadāpūta: Some scientists find it hard to understand the description of different planets wherein there are oceans of milk, because we know that there's oceans of water here, and that water has to be there to create rain . . .

Prabhupāda: So why the rascal carry this idea there? Has he seen everything?

Sadāpūta: No, but he cannot understand how an ocean . . .

Prabhupāda: So how he can understand? He's a fool. How he can understand? (break) . . . into the moon planet, what does he understand about water there? There are so many millions and trillions of planets. How he can understand what is there?

Devotee (1): Where did the astronauts go, Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: They'll go to hell. (laughter)

Hari-śauri: I hope there's some rocks.

Prabhupāda: To pick up some sand, as if sand is not there.

Sadāpūta: Śrīla Prabhupāda, is māyā especially empowering the scientists to come up with nonsense?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Sadāpūta: This is all coming from Kṛṣṇa, though, isn't it?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because you want to be fooled, Kṛṣṇa makes you a better fool.

Sadāpūta: He's also the greatest cheat.

Prabhupāda: (break) . . . want to become rogue, He'll give you all facility to become rogue. Ye yathā māṁ prapadyante tāṁs tathaiva bhajāmy aham (BG 4.11). He's so kind.

Sadāpūta: Śrīla Prabhupāda, we're doing all these studies about science from a Kṛṣṇa conscious point of view, and yet the gopīs didn't care anything for this; they just simply wanted to love Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: They did not care for anything except Kṛṣṇa. Therefore they are all perfect. Harer nāma harer nāma (CC Adi 17.21).

Sadāpūta: Do we accept the way bacterias reproduce, by fission, splitting in half? I know Kapiladeva instructs there are four different methods—like the egg, the lump of flesh, etc. And the scientists are saying that bacteria split in half and produce two daughter cells.

Prabhupāda: Bacteria is produced from fermentation. Sveda-ja. Just like nasty bedding, from your perspiration, if you don't clean, then bugs will come. Sveda-ja. In India, the Europeans they eat meat, and automatically bugs and germs come within their coat and shirt due to bad perspiration.

Hari-śauri: When you say that they're born from perspiration like cockroaches, does that mean that the eggs are laid by the female and then the atmosphere of perspiration enables the eggs to be hatched? Like that?

Prabhupāda: No, from the perspiration automatically it comes.

Sadāpūta: Prabhupāda, we say that everything is situated on desire, and as a person surrenders to Kṛṣṇa, ye yathā māṁ prapadyante (BG 4.11), He rewards accordingly. But people don't understand. Just like if there's a mother and father, and the child is not doing well, they try to mold that child's desire properly, the way that they see as proper.

Prabhupāda: Yes, He's coming, Kṛṣṇa, personally, "Rascal, give up all these ideas. Surrender unto Me." But who is accepting it? He's coming for this purpose; He's leaving His instruction, Bhagavad-gītā; He's sending His devotee; but who is caring to accept that? He's very much anxious to do good to you. But if you don't accept, what can be done?

Vipina: In the case of a devotee . . .

Prabhupāda: Devotees, they accept. Therefore they are happy. And they'll be happy. They'll go back to home happy. One who accepts, he becomes happy.

Vipina: Well, in the case where a devotee is definitely sincerely following your instruction and applying himself to all these principles that Kṛṣṇa has outlined, then when there's difficulty for him, how is he to understand that?

Prabhupāda: He cannot understand immediately. He must be patient. Utsāhān dhairyāt (Upadeśāmṛta 3). Dhairya means patience. He cannot . . . if you have sown some seed, you cannot expect immediately tree and fruits. You must wait. You must nourish the plant, water it. Śravaṇa-kīrtana-jale karaye secana (CC Madhya 19.152).

Vipina: But if there is some difficulty that causes so much trouble in your service . . .

Prabhupāda: That is impatience. That is impatience. Either he does not do properly his duty, or he is impatient.

Hari-śauri: Impatience means fruitive. Fruitive. He's looking for some results.

Prabhupāda: Immediate result, immediately.

Vipina: But isn't there a point, Prabhupāda, at which, you know, you can expect that you've been doing the right things, so there should be some relief?

Prabhupāda: Everything takes time. Suppose a girl is married. So she wants a child. It does not mean today she's married and next day child. It is not possible. Wait. You'll have child.

Devotee (1): That is faith, Prabhupāda? If the woman has faith in the husband she will . . . (indistinct) . . .?

Prabhupāda: Faith or no faith, if they live husband and wife, there will be child. That's all. (break)

Vipina: That's why they had to build this canal, because it was too rocky for boats. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . potency of hari-nāma-kīrtana, everyone will join. We have to be sincerely working, then everything . . . Kṛṣṇa will. Natural, even child, drunkard, sane man, everyone was.

Vipina: Yes, they were all dancing.

Prabhupāda: The proof was there.

Vipina: You said last night that actually they all want to dance, but they're artificially checking.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) Birth, death. (laughter)

Svarūpa Dāmodara: I saw Niagara Falls, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: I have seen.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: You have seen? How do you like it?

Prabhupāda: Oh, nice. The water is very clean. Īśāna took me there when I was Buffalo.

Vipina: It's very big, very high.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's the biggest fall in the world.

Prabhupāda: Biggest fall?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, Niagara Falls. Isn't it?

Devotees: No.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: No?

Prabhupāda: No, I have seen in Jabalpur, that is also very big fall. Jabalpur.

Hari-śauri: There is one in Africa as well.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Victoria Falls. I've seen that, Rhodesia. It's a mile wide.

Prabhupāda: Vancouver.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In Victoria, Rhodesia.

Hari-śauri: In Africa there's a very big fall.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That's not the biggest one either, though.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Angel Falls in Venezuela.

Vipina: Might be some on some other planets we don't know about.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Has there ever been debates on the authenticity of modern science, or is this the first time modern science has been challenged in the world?

Prabhupāda: India, Vedic civilization never cared for anything which is searched out by, what is called, imperfect human beings. They never cared for it. Because he knows the man who is searching after, he's imperfect. Whatever he'll do, that is imperfect. Therefore neglect it. That is Vedic civilization. Śruti-pramāṇa: whether it is evident from the śruti, from the Vedas. Otherwise, they reject it.

Vipina: Prabhupāda, if spiritual life and Kṛṣṇa are stronger than māyā, then how is it that religion was ever overcome to the extent it is now? In Kali-yuga it's so much neglected, whereas in past ages we learn that it wasn't neglected. How is it that māyā got such a stronghold?

Prabhupāda: There is a time. Just like young man and old man. Old man is dwindling, young man is growing. It is a question of time. Kali-yuga is bad time. Therefore māyā has got chance to flourish.

Hari-śauri: Eight minutes to seven, Śrīla Prabhupāda. If those people in India who are aware of the actual science, though, if they had come out and spoken against material scientists, then . . .

Prabhupāda: I am speaking.

Bṛṣākapi: You're the only one, though, Prabhupāda.

Sadāpūta: Śrīla Prabhupāda, one problem we face with students and scientists, when we present Kṛṣṇa conscious philosophy, they say . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no. We don't condemn the scientists. We say that, "Take credit as much as you can. But why do you defy the existence of God?" That is our protest.

Sadāpūta: They want to be God.

Prabhupāda: That is their foolishness.


Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, is Kali-yuga the age when desires become manifest like this?

Prabhupāda: Answer him.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In other words, the question is that do people who have such types of low-grade desires take birth in the Kali-yuga. So the question is naturally, that yes, everyone is taking birth according to their karma. But we can change our destiny by becoming Kṛṣṇa conscious. Just like if a sick man is offered medicine, so if he takes medicine, then he can become cured from his disease. Similarly, Kali-yuga means very high temperature, and the medicine is there in the form of the holy name, harer nāma (CC Adi 17.21). So we have to take advantage. Otherwise, everyone in Kali-yuga is condemned.

Prabhupāda: Have we not published that, "You have created 747. All right, take credit. But you cannot make a mosquito with pilot. Can you?" "No." "So why . . . how can you defy the supreme creator?" We are taking it, there is supreme creator.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That basic point they find it hard to understand.

Prabhupāda: No. Because they are blind. It is common sense, that you have created the 747. So somebody must have created this, a small insect. This is common sense. You cannot see Him; that is your bad fortune. But somebody has done it.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, that's our logic.

Bṛṣākapi: To be able to be so fooled, that is the greatest wonder, how it's so obvious that there's a creator, but yet one can say there is no creator.

Prabhupāda: That is foolishness. That we are protesting that, "You rascal, you stop this nonsense talking." There is son and there is mother, so there must be father. This is conclusion. And "I do not see father. I do not see that." But without father, how there can be son? This is intelligence.

Devotee (2): Prabhupāda, on the one hand you say the scientists are rascals, and on the other you say not to condemn them.

Prabhupāda: No, the rascal means when they say there is no God. Then they are rascals. Here is a scientist—he does not say that there is no God. He's not rascal. Anyone who says there is no God, he's a rascal. He may be scientist, philosopher, or anyone. (break) (back in car)

Hari-śauri: I'm a bit puzzled about this, these entities that are born from perspiration, like that. It seems that there's no father and mother, yet like we were just using the argument that there must be a father and mother.

Prabhupāda: No, there is father and mother. The supreme father is Kṛṣṇa, and mother is nature, ultimately. So perspiration also another form of nature. Yes. There's always father and mother.

Yadubara: There's no material father, though? In that case?

Prabhupāda: Material father is not material. Real father is Kṛṣṇa. He may come in so many ways.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The thing is that the scientists may isolate some cockroaches in a box, and they will watch the cockroaches secrete eggs and this or that or whatever—I don't know exactly how the cockroaches . . .

Prabhupāda: Not . . . give up cockroach. There are many other living entities, they come from perspiration. Take for . . . bugs. Bugs, they come from perspiration. Many, many come by fermentation.

Hari-śauri: Yes, but it seems that form of the bug must come from the form of another bug.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari-śauri: So it's very difficult to understand how it comes from perspiration.

Prabhupāda: The form is coming directly. Why from another? The form is . . . the birth is coming directly.

Hari-śauri: From the perspiration.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And those who are coming, they will take that form, bug-like form, and drink blood. That is all destined.

Hari-śauri: So just like a spirit soul, say, in a human form.

Prabhupāda: Spirit soul, according to his desire, he's gotten that body. But that body is coming from perspiration. That is the way.

Hari-śauri: So like in our case, the spirit soul takes shelter in the semen.

Prabhupāda: Yes, according to his desire he's given shelter to such and such place, and he comes out with the body.

Hari-śauri: And in that case he take shelter in the perspiration.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Daiva-netreṇa. That is by superior administration, he has to take shelter and take out the body, come and act. It requires little brain. The dull meat-eaters cannot understand, the drunkards and meat-eaters.

Rūpānuga: They do not even know about that kind of birth, that it even happens.

Hari-śauri: That's a fact.

Prabhupāda: No, even in their meat there will be so many germs. They know.

Rūpānuga: The common people think that by cooking the meat that they kill so many worms and germs in the meat.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rūpānuga: But studies have shown that certain worms and germs are not killed, and they are ingested into the body and cause diseases.

Prabhupāda: You take the yogurt. Even by microscope, you see so many germs.

Hari-śauri: Yogurt is made by . . .

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Even a drop of water there is . . .

Prabhupāda: Bacteria. Lactic acid. Bacteria.

Rūpānuga: I've seen that these cattle that are raised for eating, they are not like dairy cows. Dairy cows are much cleaner. These beef cattle are very dirty animals. They have no clean habits. They are almost like pigs.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Still, they should be protected, though. They can be used for plowing and . . .

Prabhupāda: No, if they are not cows, there is no need of protection. When one gives milk, that is cow.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Bulls . . .

Rūpānuga: These animals are created by man, actually. History . . .

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But it would have been a bull.

Prabhupāda: The bull also required, because cow alone cannot give milk unless united with bull.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The philosophy now with the farmers is that if there's a bull born, generally they kill it.

Prabhupāda: That is the law in England. You cannot keep a bull.

Hari-śauri: The only reason they keep the male animals is just for meat. Bullocks, one year old, and then they send them to the slaughterhouse.

Prabhupāda: Therefore in India, they require bulls and . . . generally, they are not inclined to kill. So they are engaged in . . .

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But otherwise, when Kṛṣṇa says go-rakṣya, He means the female, the cow, giving milk.

Rūpānuga: Actually, in these beef animals, if . . .

Prabhupāda: Go means species, means both bull and cow. But generally go means cow.

Hari-śauri: Of the two, the cow is the more important because it gives milk.

Rūpānuga: One thing is, these beef cows, the female, they only produce enough milk for a little offspring. They have made it like that. You cannot get enough milk from them. They have little bags, only just for their own offspring. They have created like that.

Prabhupāda: Man-made.

Rūpānuga: Yes, a man-made idea.

Hari-śauri: How does that fit in with the species of life, Śrīla Prabhupāda, when they combine two different species, artificial?

Prabhupāda: You can make, by arrangement, artificial, cross-breeding.

Hari-śauri: But that cannot be counted as one of the 8,400,000 forms.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But it's within the three modes of material nature.

Hari-śauri: I was just thinking last night when we were coming down this road that it's very nice and smooth, but then I thought you were saying the other morning that in the heavenly planets they are made from coral and so many different things. Here we're using tarmac.

Prabhupāda: The more you go higher planetary system, the standard of living is many, many thousand times better than this. Many, many thousand times.

Rūpānuga: We can't even imagine it.

Hari-śauri: What to speak of the spiritual world.

Prabhupāda: Just suppose here are stones—there are pearls. You cannot imagine.

Hari-śauri: Lying on the roadside. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . Western scientists, philosophers, they are all Dr. Frogs. They simply calculating three feet water, that's all. As soon as you speak to them about Atlantic Ocean, they say: "Oh, it is impossible." Froggish brain. (break) . . . word has come, kūpa-māṇḍūkya-nyāya, the frog in the well.

Hari-śauri: Prabhupāda, is that example also given in the Bhāgavatam? Frog in the well? Sometimes you use all these different examples, and they are all there in the Bhāgavatam. I was just wondering if this frog in the well was also there.

Prabhupāda: No.

Hari-śauri: You use very graphic examples; they're very perfect.

Prabhupāda: No, my Guru Mahārāja used to use to place so many examples, (laughs) I do not know all of them. No, there is a book, Nyāya-śāstra, logic. You'll find all these things.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is that the Nīti-śāstra?

Prabhupāda: Nīti-śāstra is different. This is Nyāya-śāstra.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Logic. Caitanya Mahāprabhu was a student.

Prabhupāda: Yes, logician. (end)