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740219 - Lecture BG 07.04 - Bombay

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

740219BG-BOMBAY - February 19, 1974 - 39:41 Minutes

Pradyumna: Oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya. Oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya. Oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya. (devotees repeat) (leads chanting of verse, etc.)

bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ
khaṁ mano buddhir eva ca
ahaṅkāra itīyaṁ me
bhinnā prakṛtir aṣṭadhā
(BG 7.4)

(break) (leads chanting of synonyms)

Prabhupāda: (aside) Is it necessary?

Devotee: No.

Pradyumna: (continues chanting of synonyms) (break)

Translation: "Earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, intelligence and false ego—altogether these eight comprise My separated material energies."


bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ
khaṁ mano buddhir eva ca
ahaṅkāra itīyaṁ me
bhinnā prakṛtir aṣṭadhā
(BG 7.4)

Prakṛti means energy. So, (break) because we are in the material world, our material science (break) is simply studying the material energy of Kṛṣṇa. Physical, chemical, light, sound, these are the subject matter of the scientists to understand. But they do not know wherefrom these material elements come.

In the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam or in the Vedic literature it is said that the material energy came out of the breathing of the Supreme Lord, Mahā-Viṣṇu.

yasyaika-niśvasita-kālam athāvalambya
jīvanti loma-vilajā jagad-aṇḍa-nāthāḥ
viṣṇur-mahān sa iha yasya kalā-viśeṣo
govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi
(Bs. 5.48)

The material energy is coming through the breathing of Mahā-Viṣṇu, who is lying down in the Kāraṇa . . . causal Ocean. So, from the breathing there is sound. From the ether, the sound comes—this is scientific—and from the sound, the air comes, the fire comes, then water comes, then the earth comes. The earth is the last, gross element in the material science. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says this earth, bhūmi . . . bhūmi, earth, has come out of water, āpaḥ. And wherefrom āpaḥ, water, has come? Analaḥ, fire. Wherefrom fire has come? From air. Where the air has come? Ether, sky. Wherefrom the ether has come? False ego. Wherefrom it has come? Mind. Wherefrom it has come? Intelligence. And wherefrom it has come? From the soul. This is the scientific study. But they do not know background of the soul. They're thinking, "There was a chunk and there was something. That's all." "Perhaps," "It may be." No definite knowledge. But here you can take the definite knowledge wherefrom these material elements come.

This Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Soul. So from the Supreme Soul all these material elements have come. Just like your body. Wherefrom it has come? It has come from the soul. In the śāstra it is said, karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa jantur deha-upapatti (SB 3.31.1). Janta. Jantu means living entity, jan . . . (indistinct) . . . jantu. So jantur deha-upapatti. There . . . the atheist theory that combination of matter makes a situation when living symptoms come out, combination of matter, that is the present chemical theory, chemical evolution. There are so many theories based on Darwin's theory, chemical evolution. Recently, when I was in Los Angeles, one German scientist came there. He has written one book, Chemical Evolution, and he has got Nobel Prize. Now he's touring for lecturing on his theory. So in the California University there is our student, Dr. Svarūpa Dāmodara. He's my disciple. He's doctor in chemistry. So, when this German chemist was lecturing, theorizing that life has come from chemical, so he put the question that, "Suppose if I give you these chemicals, whether you can prepare a life?" He answered in the meeting, "That I cannot say." That means he's not certain, still, he's theorizing, that from chemical, life has come. No, from chemical, life has not come; from life, chemical has come. This is real theory.

So these things are discussed very broadly in our American centers. So we stick to the point that life does not come from chemical, but chemical comes from life. So I gave one crude example. Just like a tree—it is also life, because there are different forms of life, 8,400,000 forms of life. So a tree also, another form of life. One who knows what is the condition of life, paṇḍita, learned, sama-darśinaḥ . . .

brāhmaṇe gavi hastini
śuni caiva śva-pāke ca
paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ
(BG 5.18)

Paṇḍita, who knows what is what, he is sama-darśī, equipoised. He knows that the substance within the tree or substance with the dog or substance with the human being or substance within the brāhmaṇa or a śūdra or a dog or a caṇḍāla—the soul is the same. Therefore, he sees everyone sama-darśinaḥ. Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). He does not distinguish between man and animal or tree, because he knows that the living force is the same, spiritual quality that is the fragmental portion of the Supreme Soul, Kṛṣṇa. So we can understand, if we are little sober, how material things come out.

Now, we understand from śāstra that after sex between man and woman, the matter is emulsified and creates a situation wherein the living entity takes shelter. Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa (SB 3.31.1). So, living entity, every one of us, dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13), we shall get another body. So what kind of body we shall get? That is karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa. That will be judged by higher authorities according to our karma. If we have done work like human being, then further promotion will be given.

ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva-sthā
madhye tiṣṭhanti rājasāḥ
adho gacchanti tāmasāḥ
(BG 14.18)

There are three qualities of the material nature. One who is associating with the modes of goodness, they're being promoted to the higher planetary system. Those who are associating with the modes of passion, they will remain within this middle planetary system. And jaghanya-guṇa-vṛtti-sthāḥ, those who are most abominable, acting most abominably, jaghanya-guṇa, adho gacchanti. This is confirmation. Adho gacchanti: "Goes down," to the animal kingdom, to the beast, birds, reptiles, snakes, so many things. There are eight millions forms. It is daivena, daiva-netreṇa. Netreṇa means "By supervision." Background of the supervision is Kṛṣṇa. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate ca-carācaram (BG 9.10). They are absolute.

In the Bhagavad-gītā, in another place, it is said that upadraṣṭā anumantā. The Supersoul, soul and Supersoul . . . there are two souls: the Supreme Soul and the subordinate soul within the body. So what we are doing, subordinate soul . . . the Supreme Soul, or the Supersoul, who is also sitting with me within the heart, He is upadraṣṭā anumantā. He's simply seeing. And anumantā means without His sanction we cannot do anything. Sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭaḥ (BG 15.15). Everyone has got experience. When we want to do something wrong, there is conscience: "Don't do it." "No, no, let me do." There is struggle. So this is the struggle between the soul and the Supersoul. But when you're persistent that, "I must do it," then the Supersoul orders, "All right, you can do at your own risk." That is called karma-phala. We have become subjected to the resultant action of our karma. That is called karmaṇā. By the activities, daiva-netreṇa, by the superior authorities' superintendence, daiva-netreṇa, jantur deha-upapatti, the living entity gets a type of body. What is this body? The five elements, bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ khaṁ mano buddhir eva ca. Eight elements: earth, water, fire, air and sky, the mind, intelligence and ego. Ego—false ego. The false ego is that "I am this body." Ahaṅkāra. Ahaṅkāra: "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim." These are all false ahaṅkāra. Neither I am Hindu nor Muslim nor Christian nor American nor Indian. I am living entity.

mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ
jīva-loke sanātanaḥ
manaḥ ṣaṣṭhānīndriyāṇi
prakṛti-sthāni karṣati
(BG 15.7)

Kṛṣṇa says that, "All these living entities, they are My part and parcel, but they are struggling hard against these material laws." Manaḥ ṣaṣṭhānīndriyāṇi prakṛti-sthāni karṣati (BG 15.7). By mental concoction he's creating a situation and he's getting that type of body. Otherwise, why there are so many varieties of body? These are the creation of our mental concoction, "I shall do that, I shall do that, I shall do this, I shall do this." So this is daiva-netreṇa. He gets daiva-netreṇa, by superior . . . just like a child insists upon doing something. The father says: "All right, do it. I don't mind." He says: "Don't do it," but he persists, "I must do." "All right, do it." There are many examples.

So there is soul and there is the gross material body and there is the subtle material body. The soul is the basic principle, but to get a body, as I have already explained, the secretion discharged by the father and the mother, they mix up, they are emulsified, and forms in the body of a pea. And the soul comes through the semina of the father and he's situated there. Then the body develops. Now, just try to understand: Because the spirit soul is there, therefore matter is developing. If the soul is not there, if the child is dead, no more development. No more development. No dead child develops body. Everyone knows. Therefore these material elements come from the spirit soul, not that spirit soul comes from the material elements. This is not. This is wrong theory. If it comes from the material combination, then why you cannot produce a living entity in the laboratory? In the laboratory, no, that is not . . . a material . . . because . . . material creation is there because I wanted a, such a circumstances, atmosphere, and anumantā, the Supreme Lord, He's the supreme sanction-giver—He gives me opportunity to enter into a certain type of mother's body, and the material grows.

So the actual fact is from spirit soul, the energy, material energy comes out. Take, for example, that I was giving, that chemicals. Now, take one lemon tree. It is a living entity, and it is producing at least hundreds of pounds of citric acid, lemons. Everyone knows. You take fifty lemons today, again take fifty lemons, and if you extract the lemon, you'll find extensive quantity of citric acid. So wherefrom the citric acid chemical comes? Because the living entity's there in the tree. Therefore the conclusion should be the chemicals come from life; life does not come from chemical. If life comes from chemical, then you produce. I give you the chemicals, whatever chemicals you want. So chemical is produced. Just like you have got experience when there is perspiration. You taste the perspiration, there is salt. Wherefrom the salt comes? Salt is . . . what is the chemical name? Sodium carbonate, no?

Devotee: Chloride.

Prabhupāda: Sodium chloride. Sodium chloride. So sodium chloride, wherefrom it comes? It comes from your body, and your body comes from the soul. Therefore the original cause of sodium chloride is the soul. So as you can analyze a little quantity of chemicals from your body, from tree's body, from any body, so you just imagine the unlimited body, gigantic body of Kṛṣṇa, virāṭ-puruṣa, how much chemical it can produce. Therefore, don't take it that this is all imagination. Kṛṣṇa says:

bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ
khaṁ mano buddhir eva ca
ahaṅkāra itīyaṁ me
bhinnā prakṛtir aṣṭadhā
(BG 7.4)

"These eight kinds of materials, gross and subtle, they are My energy." It is coming from Kṛṣṇa. If you . . . Kṛṣṇa is not talking any nonsense. He's not bluffing you. At least those who are advanced, why you are reading Bhagavad-gītā? Because it is authoritative. Kṛṣṇa is speaking—that is fact—the most exalted authority.

We have to take knowledge from the authority; we cannot manufacture knowledge. That is not . . . that is imperfect knowledge, because our senses are imperfect. We have got four deficiencies. We commit mistake, we become illusioned . . . we commit mistake, everyone knows. I have several times talked that even a personality like Gandhi, he committed so many mistakes. So, so long you are conditioned by the material nature, you must commit mistake. There is no escape. Similarly, we are illusioned. Illusioned means we accept something for something. Just like you are accepting this body—"I am American," "I am Indian"—but I am neither American nor Indian, I am spirit soul. This is called illusion. Bhrama, pramāda and vipralipsā. Vipralipsā means the propensity for cheating others. I do not know exactly what is the cause of life; still, I am theorizing in so many ways. And when I am challenged by other person that, "Can you produce, with chemical, life?" "That I cannot say." Then why you are talking nonsense? This is cheating. If you are actually in knowledge that from chemical, life can be produced, then you produce it. I give you chemicals. But when you cannot do, why you are cheating people? But this cheating propensity is there. One is a nonsense number one, but he speaks. "Devil cites scripture." That we do not accept. Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement does not accept the scripture cited by the Devil. Therefore we have accepted Kṛṣṇa, sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam (Bs. 5.1). Whatever He says, we accept. We are not perfect, our senses are not perfect, we are fool number one, but the knowledge which we accept, that is perfect. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Therefore, whatever we speak, we do not speak anything which Kṛṣṇa does not speak. That is our quality. I have several times, I was eulogized by many persons, "Swāmījī, you have done wonderful." So I say that I am not a wonderful man. I simply follow Kṛṣṇa. What Kṛṣṇa says, I repeat, like parrot. That's all. I have no knowledge. But Kṛṣṇa says that, "This is this"; I accept it. And then that will be . . . that we shall be benefited. Just like a child: If he accepts the instruction of the parents, he gets knowledge. Parent will not cheat. If a child does not know a small watch, he asks, "Father, what is this?" Father can explain, "My dear child, this is called watch. You can see time, what is the time now." That is perfect knowledge. So that knowledge is perfect. Therefore in the beginning of this chapter and in the Fourth Chapter we see, evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). If we get knowledge by the pure paramparā system, pure disciplic succession, that knowledge is perfect. Then our life is perfect. And if we want to try to expound knowledge by our limited power, that is imperfect knowledge. That knowledge is not perfect. That is concoction. If you want to take perfect knowledge, then you must get from the authorities. Evaṁ paramparā. That is Vedic knowledge.

tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet
samit-pāṇiḥ śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham
(MU 1.2.12)

One must go to the guru. And who is guru? Guru, śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham—"One who has heard from the paramparā system and he has become completely convinced in the understanding of Brahman."

So, so this is the process. This bhūmir āpaḥ, this material, it is not a fact. People are so much attached to this material world. That is called ignorance. Mūḍha. They are called mūḍha. Māyayāpahṛta-jñānāḥ (BG 7.15). Their knowledge has been taken away. These things will be explained in the later verses, that do not try to take knowledge from imperfect person; take knowledge from the perfect person, perfect Supreme Personality. Who is perfect? God is perfect. And who carries the word of God, he is perfect. This is the definition of perfection. So Kṛṣṇa says, bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ. Matter is produced by Kṛṣṇa's energy. It is not automatically produced. Just like I have given the example that this body, this material gross body, is produced out of the soul which is put into the womb of the mother by the semina of the father. These are . . . these description are there in the Third Canto of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, very nicely, you consult.

So that knowledge is perfect because experimentally . . . science means observation and experiment. If you are observing something, then you must experiment. Jñānaṁ vijñānam. In the previous verses we have already studied that jñānaṁ te 'haṁ sa-vijñānam (BG 7.2). Jñānaṁ te 'haṁ sa-vijñānam. Theoretical knowledge, that is observation. And sa-vijñānam means experiment. If you say, if you have observed that life is produced of chemicals, then make experiment. Then it is science; otherwise it is hodgepodge; it has no meaning. Life is never produced of matter; matter is produced out of life. This is the . . . therefore we are fragmental matter . . . life. We living entities, small portion, very small portion. That is also given in the śāstras: keśāgra-śata-bhāgasya śatadhā kalpitasya ca. One ten-thousandth part of the top of the hair, that is the magnitude of soul.

śatadhā kalpitasya ca
jīva-bhāgaḥ sa vijñeyaḥ
sa cānantyāya kalpate
(Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 5.9)

That jīva, ananta, unlimited. That is our magnitude. They cannot find out one ten-thousandth part of the upper portion of the hair. There is no machine, no microscope which . . .

Therefore these foolish people, because they cannot see the dimension, length and breadth, of the soul, they say the soul is nirākāra. It is not nirākāra. It has ākāra, but you cannot see with the blunt eyes. "Then how can I understand?" Śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham, tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). You have to learn by hearing. There is no other process. The Vedas says, the śāstra says: "This is the magnitude of the soul," you have to take it. Then you will understand. Otherwise, by so-called experiment, you have neither instrument nor facility to make, find out. The first-class medical man or physiologist, find out where is the soul in this body. But they cannot. They have no such power. But there is something which, being absent, the body is dead. That is a fact. That is a fact. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). That . . . because that soul has gone out of this body, therefore the body is now dead. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. Therefore it is authority.

What is the distinction between dead man and living man? That you have to understand. You cannot make experiment why the body is dead. But you can understand when you touch Bhagavad-gītā. Bhagavad-gītā says:

dehino 'smin yathā dehe
kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā
tathā dehāntara-prāptir
dhīras tatra na muhyati
(BG 2.13)

Dhīraḥ, those who are actually learned, sober, he is not agitated by the death of a man, because he knows that the soul has now changed this body to another body, just like he was changing from child's body to baby's body, baby's body to boy's body, boy's body to youth's body, from youth to old man's body. Now, from this old man's body, now the body cannot be used. Vāsāṁsi jīrṇāni yathā vihāya (BG 2.22). Just like old garments we give up and take another garment, similarly, so long we are in the material world, we accept another material body. This is called transmigration of soul, death and birth. But when you are liberated from this conditioned life—you are fit for going to the spiritual world in your spiritual body—that is perfection of life. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti (BG 4.9). That is wanted. That is wanted. You give up this body. Don't accept any more any material body, either Indra's body, Brahmā's body or the body of the worm of the stool. You can have any body, according to your mentality. Yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran bhāvaṁ tyajaty ante kalevaram (BG 8.6). Your body, you are making now. So at the time of death, the condition of your mind will transfer you with mind, intelligence, subtle body. They are seeing that this gross body's finished, but they cannot see that there is another body which is made of mind, intelligence and ego. That is called subtle body. That will be explained next verse.

So this knowledge . . . so people are simply mad after this material enjoyment. He does not know that this material body is temporary, it is for a certain years only. But you are eternal. Just try to understand what is your eternal business. Why you are so much mad after this temporary business? That is stated in the Śrīmad-Bha . . .

nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma
yad indriya-prītaya āpṛṇoti
na sādhu manye yata ātmano 'yam
asann api kleśada āsa dehaḥ
(SB 5.5.4)

Kleśada. This material body is kleśada. Kleśada means always giving us trouble. Always giving. Kleśada āsa. So one should always remember that "I have got this material body, which is suffering heat, cold, mātrā, sukha, duḥkha, happiness, distress." Why? Because this material body . . .

mātrā-sparśās tu kaunteya
āgamāpāyino 'nityās
tāṁs titikṣasva bhārata
(BG 2.14)

So long you have this material body, bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ khaṁ mano buddhiḥ (BG 7.4), then . . . material world means suffering. You cannot avoid suffering. But the endeavor is how to get out of suffering. That is called struggle for existence.

So you cannot get out of it so long you do not stop acceptance of another material body. That is called real liberation, no more accepting material body. Therefore Bhāgavata says that, "These madmen . . ." Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ. Pramattaḥ. Mattaḥ means mad, and pra means prakṛṣṭa-rūpeṇa, sufficiently mad. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma (SB 5.5.4). There are karma, vikarma and akarma. So one should know. Vikarma means criminal activities. Just like so many people are acting criminally simply to get money, as if money will save him. If he acts criminally, simply sinful activities, and by such, he is punished to get another body which is sinful, pāpa-yoni, then what is . . . how his money will save him? No, that cannot save. Just like if you have become criminal and you are arrested by the state. Suppose you are millionaires. Your money will save you? No. That will not save. But they . . . for money they are doing all sorts of sinful activities. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma yad . . . (SB 5.5.4). Why they are doing? Yad indriya-prīta . . . simply for sense gratification, that's all. Only benefit is sense gratification. Yad indriya-prītaya āpṛṇoti.

Therefore Ṛṣabhadeva, na sādhu manye: "Don't do this. Oh, it is not good." Why not good? Na sādhu manye yato ātmano 'yam asann api. You have got this material body, suffering, although it is temporary, but you have got this. So don't do this. Don't do anything that you get another material body. That is perfection of life. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Thank you very much.

Devotees: Jaya. Haribol. (end)