721117 - Lecture BG 02.12 - Hyderabad

Lectures by Date, 1972

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

721117BG-HYDERABAD - November 17, 1972 - 53:57 Minutes

Prabhupāda:

na tv evāhaṁ jātu nāsaṁ

na tvaṁ neme janādhipāḥ

na caiva na bhaviṣyāmaḥ

sarve vayam ataḥ param

(BG 2.12)

Kṛṣṇa is giving more enlightenment on the living entity, soul. "Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be." Now, Kṛṣṇa says that, "In the past I existed. So also you. And so also all these soldiers and the kings who have assembled in this fighting. They existed in the past. For the present, there is no question of asking . . . we are existing. And in the future also, it is not that we shall not exist." That means, "We shall exist."

So what is "I," "you," and "others"? I am individual person, you are individual person, and all others, they're also, each and every one of them, individual person. So in the past we are all individuals; at present we are all individuals; and in the future also, we shall remain individual. So where there is question of merging, become one? Here Kṛṣṇa said that, "In the past we are individual person, in the present we are all individual persons, and in future also, we shall remain individuals."

So the Māyāvādī theory that impersonal, how it stands? Neither God is impersonal nor the living entities are impersonal. Every one of us—person. The difference between the Supreme Person and our personality is that He is all-powerful, we are limited. Our power is limited. Everything our, limited. Aṇu, prabhu. He is great; we are small. He is infinite; we are infinitesimal, very small. Otherwise, in all other qualities we are one. There is no difference. Sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ (Bs. 5.1): in eternity, in blissfulness and in knowledge. Everything is there.

But Kṛṣṇa's knowledge and our knowledge, different. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam (BG 4.1): "I spoke this yoga system, Bhagavad-gītā, long, long ago to the sun-god." Vivasvān manave prāha: "And the sun-god explained it to his son, Manu; and Manu again, in his turn, he explained to his son, Ikṣvāku. In this way, this knowledge of Bhagavad-gītā is coming by the disciplic succession."

So Kṛṣṇa says: "I spoke." So it is millions and millions, at least, four hundred thousand millions of times, millions of years ago, according to the calculation of Manu. So Kṛṣṇa said millions and millions of years ago this Bhagavad-gītā He remembers. But Arjuna inquired from Him that, "How can I believe that You spoke this Bhagavad-gītā millions of millions years ago to sun-god, because we are contemporary?" Kṛṣṇa and Arjuna, they're of . . . practically of the same age.

So Arjuna was calculating as a human being about Kṛṣṇa. That was his mistake. That was his not mistake, that was his inquiry to clear the mistake of our. We mistake Kṛṣṇa as one of us. Because Kṛṣṇa comes down as human being, we, due to our lack of knowledge, poor fund of knowledge, we think Kṛṣṇa is as good as we are. But actually it is not. Kṛṣṇa is God, we are ordinary living entity. His knowledge, His power of remembrance, His power of knowing everything perfectly is different from our knowing. But unfortunately we think, "God may be little greater than me." That is that Dr. Frog philosophy.

We have explained several times, kūpa-maṇḍūka-nyāya. The frog within the well, he is calculating the dimension of Pacific Ocean. So by this dog . . . frog philosophical way we can . . . we cannot understand what is God. We must receive the knowledge from God Himself or from a person who knows God. Otherwise, there is no possibility. Now, according to Māyā . . . Māyāvāda philosophy, they say that there is no duality; it is a kind of illusion that we see difference between God and ourself. That is māyā.

Then Kṛṣṇa is not advocating herewith about the impersonal feature of the Lord. He says, ah, He represents . . . He is God Himself. He says: "I, I was existing as I am existing now, and in future also I shall exist like this." So He was speaking as individual person. So in the past He says that, "I was individual person." And in the present He's individual person. So why these Māyāvādī philosophy, philosophers, do not understand this direct version from the Supreme Personality of Godhead?

Because āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ (BG 7.15). The Māyāvādī philosophers, they do not accept the supremacy of the Personality of Godhead. They think God is as good as they are. Therefore they introduce themselves as Nārāyaṇa. But according to Vaiṣṇava philosophy, Nārāyaṇa cannot be equal to any one of us. What to speak of us, Nārāyaṇa cannot be equally estimated even with great demigods like Lord Brahmā, Lord Śiva.

That is . . . the Vaiṣṇava Purāṇa says:

yas tu nārāyaṇaṁ devaṁ

brahma-rudrādi-daivataiḥ

samatvenaiva vīkṣeta

sa pāṣaṇḍī bhavad dhruvam

(CC Madhya 18.116)

"Anyone who calculates Nārāyaṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, equal with such demigods, not . . . what to speak of ordinary human being, even big, big demigods like Lord Śiva, Lord Brahmā, he immediately becomes a pāṣaṇḍī, atheist." So if . . . the Māyāvādī philosophy, they put forward this argument that "Because we are now in māyā, we are thinking that we are different from God." But Kṛṣṇa is making thus such differentiation that . . . He's making, He's saying, "You and I and all these."

So does it mean that Kṛṣṇa is also covered by māyā, or illusion? Because He is very clearly differentiating between Him and the living entities, all individual. So if the Māyāvādī philosopher is right, that this differentiation is due to our illusion, then we have to accept Kṛṣṇa is also in illusion, because He's making differentiation. So if Kṛṣṇa is in illusion, then what is the use of taking His version? Because our proposition is that we have to take knowledge from the perfect person. So if Kṛṣṇa is in illusion, then how He can become perfect person, and the knowledge delivered by Him is perfect? No. Kṛṣṇa is not illusioned; we are in illusion. Kṛṣṇa is not in illusion. Kṛṣṇa cannot be in illusion.

(reading from purport) "In the Vedas, in the Kaṭha Upaniṣad as well as in the Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad, it is said that the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the maintainer of innumerable living entities." The Supreme Personality of Godhead . . .

nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām

eko bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān

(Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13)

There is eka and bahu. The bahu, they are also nitya and cetana. That means we living entities, we are also cetana and eternal, and Kṛṣṇa is also eternal and cetana.

So, so far the living symptoms and the eternity is concerned, both the living entities and God, Kṛṣṇa, they are one. But the difference is that eko bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān, that one, that chief one, although He's eternal and living force as we are, but He is the chief. He maintains all others. That is the version.

nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām

eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān

tam ātma-sthaṁ ye 'nupaśyanti dhīrās

teṣāṁ śāntiḥ śāśvatī netareṣām

(Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13)

This is the version from Kaṭhopaniṣad. Nityo nityānām: He's the supreme eternal amongst all the other eternals. Cetanaś cetanānām: He's the supreme living force amongst all other living forces. Eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān: that one, singular number, eka, He is providing, maintaining, all other living entities. Tam ātma-stham: He is also in everyone's heart. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe arjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). Tam ātma-sthaṁ ye 'nupaśyanti dhīrāḥ: anyone who can perceive His presence, dhīra, very highly learned or very gentle, dhīra . . . dhīra means who is not disturbed. He's called dhīra. And there are others, who are called adhīra. Adhīra means those who are disturbed.

So those who are in the material world, they are always disturbed. And those who are on the spiritual platform, they are dhīra. Dhīrādhīra. About the Gosvāmīs it is said:

kṛṣṇotkīrtana-gāna-nartana-parau premāmṛtāmbho-nidhī

dhīrādhīra-jana-priyau priya-karau nirmatsarau pūjitau

śrī-caitanya-kṛpā-bharau bhuvi bhuvo bhārāvahantārakau

vande rūpa-sanātanau raghu-yugau śrī-jīva-gopālakau

(Śrī Śrī Ṣaḍ-gosvāmy-aṣṭaka)

So one who is in the transcendental position, he's dhīra. One poet, poet Kālidāsa, he has described, dhīra means: "Even in the presence of provocation, one who is not disturbed, he's called dhīra." He has described about Lord Śiva. When Lord Śiva was being worshiped by Pārvatī, Lord Śiva was naked and Pārvatī was worshiping the śiva-liṅga, but he did not become agitated. Therefore Kālidāsa has described: dhīra. Dhīra. One who is not . . . the first disturbance is sexual disturbance. So anyone, although he is completely potent with all the potencies, but still he is not disturbed with sex impulses, he's called dhīra.

Actually, that is called brahmacārī. Brahmacārī is not he is impotent. He can marry. He can beget children. But self-restrained. He's so self-restrained that he's not disturbed. Unless he desires that, "I shall have sex and for begetting children," he's not disturbed. That is called dhīra. Not by seeing any woman or man one is disturbed. He's adhīra. She's adhīra.

So dhīrādhīra-jana-priyau priya-karau nirmatsarau . . . the Gosvāmīs, they were equally respectable for the dhīras and the adhīras. So a, a spiritual master, a gosvāmī, should be equally merciful both for the dhīras and the adhīras. Otherwise, he cannot become a preacher. Preacher has to meet so many fallen souls. So he, if he becomes disturbed, then he cannot preach. Therefore dhīra. This word is here: anupaśyanti, tam ātma-sthaṁ ye anupaśyanti dhīra. He's called dhīra.

Without being dhīra, you cannot perceive the presence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead within your heart, because the God is there in Paramātmā feature. But you have to become dhīra, "Without being disturbed." Then you can understand: "Here is Kṛṣṇa within my heart."

premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena

santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti

yaṁ śyāmasundaram acintya-guṇa-svarūpaṁ

govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi

(Bs. 5.38)

This dhīra can be possible when we develop love for Kṛṣṇa. Then we become dhīra. Otherwise, it is not possible. Otherwise we shall be disturbed.

Premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena. And how we can see God? Not with these eyes. These eyes, but there must be some ointment. That is called prema. Just like a mother sees his child, although not very beautiful, very beautiful, because he has . . . she has got love for the child. Others, they are seeing the child not very beautiful. The mother, out of ecstatic love, sees the child very beautiful. So similarly, unless we have developed our love for Kṛṣṇa, we cannot see the Supreme Personality of Godhead within our heart—not only within our heart—everywhere.

premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena

santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti

yaṁ śyāmasundaram acintya-guṇa-svarūpaṁ

govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi

(Bs. 5.38)

(reads purport) "The same Vedic truth given to Arjuna is given to all persons in the world who pose themselves as very learned but factually have but a poor fund of knowledge."

This is poor fund of knowledge that, "God and I, we one." Now, because we are illusioned, we are thinking that God is different from me, but when the illusion is over, then I and God become one. This is Māyāvādī theory, monism. But actually this is not clear knowledge. God is . . . God is always distinct from me. He's the Supreme. It is not that we are equal to God. We are equal to God in quality, not in quantity.

Therefore those who are thinking that they are equal to God in every respect, they are illusioned. Māyā, māyayā apahṛta-jñānāḥ. They have been called, they have been designated by Kṛṣṇa as māyayā apahṛta-jñānāḥ (BG 7.15). Although they appear to be very learned scholar, but the essence of the knowledge is taken away by māyā. Therefore they say that God and ordinary human being is the same. Māyayā apahṛta . . . asuri. This is called āsuri-bhāva. Āsuri-bhāva means not to accept the supremacy of the Lord but think Him as one with all individual souls. But that is not the fact. That is poor fund of knowledge.

Actually when one becomes advanced in knowledge, as it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante (BG 7.19). In due course of time, after many, many births, when he actually comes to the platform of knowledge, he can understand that, "Vāsudeva is great and I am small, I am insignificant." Therefore he surrenders. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ (BG 7.19). Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate. This is the sign of knowledge. When one surrenders to Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, it is to be understood that he has actually attained knowledge. Otherwise it is ignorance. To think of Kṛṣṇa and ordinary person as equal is not knowledge; it is illusion.

So anyone who takes shelter of Kṛṣṇa by the words of Kṛṣṇa, believing Him . . . so . . . just like Kṛṣṇa says, mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). Kṛṣṇa orders that, "You surrender unto Me. You become My devotee. You always think of Me." Man-manā, mad-bhaktaḥ (BG 9.34): "You become My devotee." Mad-yājī: "You worship Me. You offer your obeisances unto Me." Persons who are in poor fund of knowledge, they think, "It is too much. Kṛṣṇa is demanding too much. It is sophistry."

No, no. That is not sophistry. That is the real position. Otherwise, without surrendering to Kṛṣṇa, if you think yourself that you are Kṛṣṇa, that is in illusion, aviśuddha-buddhayaḥ, contaminated intelligence. Aviśuddha-buddhayaḥ. Ye 'nye 'ravindākṣa vimukta-māninas tvayy asta-bhāvād aviśuddha-buddhayaḥ (SB 10.2.32). Because they cannot understand Kṛṣṇa, so their knowledge is not perfect, or not purified.

Knowledge perfect is there in every living entity, but it is contaminated by the contact of māyā. So one who can understand the position of Kṛṣṇa and himself, he's called mukta. Mukta means liberated. Mukti means to know perfectly what is our relationship with Kṛṣṇa. That is called mukti. (pause)

The verse . . .

antavanta ime dehā

nityasyoktāḥ śarīriṇaḥ

anāśino 'prameyasya

tasmād yudhyasva bhārata

(BG 2.18)

Yuddha, fighting. Arjuna was kṣatriya, it is his duty. Because here, in this material world, violence is also required. Violence. Because everyone is competitor, everyone is trying to become the Supreme, so there will be violence. Just like in your state, at the present moment, there is violence because one party is trying to become Supreme than the other. That is going on everywhere, all over the world, the struggle for existence. Everyone is trying to become supreme than the other. So there must be violence.

So expecting that there will be violence, the kṣatriya class required. Just like in the state, expecting that there will be violence, therefore the police department is maintained, the military department is maintained. So you cannot avoid violence from this material world. It is useless proposal. Our Mahatma Gandhi tried to stop violence. He started the nonviolence movement. But factually he had to die by violence.

So kṣatriya, they are trained up to violent, to become violent to stop violence. That is required. Therefore Kṛṣṇa advises that, "Don't try to become nonviolent, because . . ." Tasmād yudhyasva bhārata. "Don't think that by killing the body, your grandfather or your nephews and your brother on the other side, they will be finished. No. They'll live. The body may be destroyed," na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20), but actual soul, he'll transmigrate.

According to Vedic philosophy, if a kṣatriya dies in proper fighting, then he is immediately transferred to the heavenly planet. The heavenly planet. Because he sacrifices his body for right cause. Formerly, the fight was not a very trifle thing. After much consideration, then fighting or war was declared. Just like the fighting between the Kurus and the Pāṇḍavas; first of all there was great endeavor to stop the fight. Kṛṣṇa Himself became the messenger and was going from this party to another.

Because Kṛṣṇa . . . both the parties were Kṛṣṇa's family relative. So He wanted to stop and mitigate the misunderstanding by mutual settlement. But it was not possible. The Duryodhana's party said that, "We are not prepared to spare even a small piece of land which can hold the tip of the needle." Sūcāgra-bhūmi. Then it was decided there must be fight.

That fighting was meant for the kṣatriyas. Formerly, there was no democracy, the so-called democracy. Democracy means that there was one king only; now there are hundreds of kings. One king and few ministers. Now one governor, one, I mean to say, three dozen secretaries, and three dozen . . . so many things. It is overburdened. The tax, tax is overburdened because there are so many officers, they have to be sumptually paid. So tax is required.

So in this age, Kali-yuga, by, I mean to say, finishing the monarchical system, people have accepted the democratic system, but it is not very much improvement, because the state expenditure has very much increased and people are very much overburdened with taxes. So Kṛṣṇa advises that tasmād yudhyasva.

Tasmād yudhyasva bhārata. "Don't think that your grandfather or the other party, relatives, they'll be destroyed by fighting. It is not the fact that by destruction of the body, the soul is destroyed." Real purpose is, Bhagavad-gītā, that we should understand that the soul is always existing, even . . . na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20).

ya enaṁ vetti hantāraṁ

yaś cainaṁ manyate hatam

ubhau tau na vijānīto

nāyaṁ hanti na hanyate

(BG 2.19)

There is another example. Kṛṣṇa says . . . because the soul is immortal, eternal, so if somebody kills somebody, the body is destroyed, but the soul is not destroyed. So if one thinks that, "I have killed him—he's finished," he's also foolish. And one who thinks that, "If I have died in the fight, then I will be finished," no. Ubhau tau na vijānītaḥ. Both of them are ignorant. Ubhau tau na vijānīto nāyaṁ hanti na hanyate. The living soul is never killed, neither he can kill others. For duty's sake . . . of course, when there is fight . . . that is called dharma-yuddha. Dharma-yuddha: by the order of the Supreme.

Just like Arjuna was fighting by the order of the Supreme. That is dharma-yuddha. If there is no sanction by the dharma, there is śāstra injunction, "In this case fighting should be there; in case . . . in this case, there should be no fighting . . ." So one who follows the principles of regulation in the Vedas, that is called dharma-yuddha. Even there is fight, there is religion, there is piety, even by killing and being killed. Two kṣatriyas are fighting. Either he kills or he is being killed, in both ways they are profited. That will be explained.

Just like Arjuna was advised that, "My dear Arjuna, why you are hesitating to fight? Both ways you'll be benefited. If you can kill your enemies, then you get the kingdom; you enjoy. And if you are killed, then you are promoted to the heavenly planet. So where is your loss? Where is your loss?" This is the instruction given. A kṣatriya who is fighting for the real cause, as sanctioned by the dharma-śāstras, then both ways he's profited. If he becomes victorious, he's profited, but if he's killed in the battle, he's also profited. Both ways.

ya enaṁ vetti hantāraṁ

yaś cainaṁ manyate hatam

ubhau tau na vijānīto

nāyaṁ hanti na hanyate

(BG 2.19)

Then the next verse He clearly explains:

na jāyate mriyate vā kadācin

nāyaṁ bhūtvā bhavitā vā na bhūyaḥ

ajo nityaḥ śāśvato 'yaṁ purāṇo

na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre

(BG 2.20)

"This soul . . . do not think that soul is born." No. As God is ever-existing, the soul is ever-existing. It is not . . . there is no question of birth. And when there is no question of birth, there is no question of death. Because we experience, anything, anybody who has taken birth, he dies. Nobody will live here.

So if the soul has no birth, there is no question of death. And as Kṛṣṇa, God, God is eternal, advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam ādyaṁ purāṇa (Bs. 5.33). Purāṇa means old. Because Kṛṣṇa is the original person, therefore He must be purāṇa, the oldest, older than Brahmā. Because Brahmā is given birth by Kṛṣṇa. Therefore Kṛṣṇa has been addressed in the Bhagavad-gītā as prapitāmaha (BG 11.39). Brahmā is called pitāmaha, the grandfather, and prapitāmaha means "the father of the grandfather." So Kṛṣṇa has been addressed as prapitāmaha, "Father of Brahmā." Therefore He's ādi-puruṣa.

Actually, within this creation Lord Brahmā is the original person, because he was first-born. There was no other person before him. But he's given birth by Nārāyaṇa, from the abdomen of Nārāyaṇa in the lotus flower. Therefore He's the father of Brahmā. Prapitāmaha.

So Kṛṣṇa here says . . . because that Māyāvādī philosophy's also nullified here. Because here it is said, na jāyate . . . na jāyate mriyate vā kadācin nāyaṁ bhūtvā bhavitā vā na bhūyaḥ. Māyāvāda philosophy says that the living entity has become separated on account of illusion. Not becomes separated. He is . . . there is no separation, but it is illusion; he's thinking, "I am different from God."

But Kṛṣṇa says, mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ jīva-loke sanātanaḥ (BG 15.7). That aṁśa, part and parcel of God, he's sanātana. Not that, being covered by illusion, he's thinking, "I am separated." He's separated always, sanātana. That is the statement of the Vedas. Separated . . . although separated, quality one, but that separation, that fragments of Kṛṣṇa, that is sanātana.

It is not that by māyā we are fragmental separated, when we are liberated, we merge into the body or the effulgence of God. We are separated in . . . perpetually. Although we are eternal, but we are perpetually . . . vibhinnāṁśa. In the Varāha Purāṇa it is said vibhinnāṁśa, "Separated part and parcel."

So we should understand very clearly that although we are eternal, part and parcel, but we are separated. Separated in this sense, that we are, every one of us, are individual, not merge into the existence. Everything is existing. In the Bhagavad-gītā, you'll find, mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni nāhaṁ teṣu avasthitaḥ (BG 9.4). Everything is existing in Him, Kṛṣṇa. But still, Kṛṣṇa is not the living entity.

Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break)

Indian man: Kirtan karne se isme progress . . . (indistinct) . . . (By doing kīrtan, progress in this . . . (indistinct) . . .)

Prabhupāda: Bhakti . . . if we chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, then we come to our perfection. At the present moment, we are illusioned. Just like every one of us thinking that, "I am this body." Otherwise, why there is so much fighting? Everyone is thinking, "I am this body." This bodily concept of life is māyā, illusion, or ignorance. So the whole process is to drive away the ignorance. Drive away. That is called jñāna. We are in the ajñāna.

ajñāna-timirāndhasya

jñānāñjana-śalākayā

cakṣur unmīlitaṁ yena

tasmai śrī-gurave namaḥ

(Gautamīya Tantra)

Every one of us is covered by the darkness of ajñāna. What is that ajñāna? "I am this body." "I am Indian," "I am American," "I am Andhra," "I am Bengali," "I am this," "I am that." So there is fighting, due to this ajñāna. So first of all we have to drive away this ajñāna. Therefore Kṛṣṇa is teaching Arjuna that "You are not this body. You are spirit soul." This is the first spiritual instruction by the authority to anyone, that "You are not this body."

So by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra . . . it is the medicine recommended in the śāstra, ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). That dust of ignorance is moved. He can understand that, "I am not this body, I am spirit soul, part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. My duty is to serve Kṛṣṇa." In this way, he becomes enlightened gradually.

Indian man: One question, Swāmījī—Lord Kṛṣṇa has claimed in the past He was existing; in present He exists; in future He will be. In what form Kṛṣṇa has got?

Prabhupāda: Just like you have dressed now, covered yourself with some type of dress. So if you change your dress, does it mean that you are finished?

Indian man: But what He . . .

Prabhupāda: Try to understand—you are now in my presence dressed in a certain type of covering. Now, if you change this covering, does it mean you are finished?

Indian man: No, sir.

Prabhupāda: Similarly, this body, this material body, has been explained as dress. So if I change my dress . . . now, suppose I am now human being and I change my dress to become a demigod, or I change my dress to become a dog. It does not mean that I am finished. I have simply changed my dress, according to my karma. Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa jantur deha upapatti (SB 3.31.1).

By your karma, you'll have a dress. After death, as it is explained in this verse, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20): the living soul is not destroyed after the destruction of this body. Therefore he remains, and his finer dress, subtle dress, is there—mind, intelligence and ego. So according to the composition of his mind he develops another gross dress. This is the process.

So you, spirit soul, you are always the same, although you are changing dress. Our problem is that we are perpetually changing dress, but our desire is to have a permanent life. That is spiritual education. You can have a permanent life, permanent dress, permanent knowledge if you become free from this dress-changing problem. That is called mukti. The Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is to stop this business of dress-changing. Yes?

Indian man (2): So do you mean to say that Kṛṣṇa is also karma-bound?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Indian man (2): Do you mean to say that Kṛṣṇa is also karma-bound?

Prabhupāda: No, no.

Indian man (2): Just now you have quoted the example, sir, that as we changing our dresses, Kṛṣṇa will also change that dress by changing from past to . . .

Prabhupāda: What is, I have explained?

Indian man (2): So just now you were comparing that as we change our dresses, Kṛṣṇa will also be changing.

Prabhupāda: Where? Where I have said? I have never said.

Devotee: That man's original question is, "What form is Kṛṣṇa in now?"

Indian man (2): No. Excuse me. His question was: "Kṛṣṇa was, will be and He is—in what form?"

Prabhupāda: Oh, his question was . . .?

Devotee: Yes. His question was that if Kṛṣṇa says that "Never was there a time when you and I did . . ." (break)

Prabhupāda: That is not correct. Kṛṣṇa . . . as we have got distinction between the body and the soul, Kṛṣṇa has no such distinction. Kṛṣṇa is completely soul. And if we think that Kṛṣṇa is like us, that is forbidden. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ, tanu . . . mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam (BG 9.11).

Because Kṛṣṇa comes before us just like a human being, if we think that, "He's also like me," then we are ass. Kṛṣṇa does not change His dress. Otherwise, Kṛṣṇa could not say that, "Millions and millions of years ago I spoke this philosophy to the sun-god." Because . . . because we change our dress, we forget what I was, what you were in your past life. Because you have changed the dress. (break)

Prabhupāda: Always thinking of Kṛṣṇa. As Kṛṣṇa says: man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). These four principles. Always think of Kṛṣṇa, become Kṛṣṇa's devotee, worship Kṛṣṇa and offer your respect, obeisances to Kṛṣṇa. That's all. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They are doing that. Nothing more, nothing less. These four principles.

Indian man (4): Ap bolte nahi ke Nārāyaṇa . . . (You are not saying if Nārāyaṇa . . .) (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . Shastra sunne padhega, samajhne padhega. Jo shastra janta hai, usko chela banna padhega, tabhi malum hoga. Aisa jaldi ek minute me nahi malum ho sakta. (One has to hear the śāśtra, understand it. One who knows śāśtra, he has to become that person's servant then only he will come to know. He cannot just understand in one minute.)

Indian man (5): The fundamental question of our interest is to know soul.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Indian man (5): The fundamental question of our interest is to know soul.

Prabhupāda: Yes?

Indian man: So what is the form and what is the definition of soul, and how to know whether there is soul . . .?

Prabhupāda: That is . . . that is . . . that is described. We are describing: na jāyate na mriyate. Soul is never born, soul never dies, soul is eternal. Nityaḥ śāśvato, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). Even after the destruction of this body, the soul is not destroyed. These, these are the education.

Indian man (5): There is a test of knowing the thing. You are just describing the qualities of the soul. If you can say mango, mango is very sweet, color is like this. But it requires to taste the mango. So I want to realize the soul. What is the shortest way?

Prabhupāda: There is mango, but you have no eyes to see it. That is the difference. Soul is there. Just like we have begun our instruction: dehino 'smin yathā dehe (BG 2.13). There is dehī. There is the soul within this body. Kṛṣṇa says. So we have to accept Kṛṣṇa's authority. You cannot see the soul. That does not mean there is no soul. Your . . . what is the value of your eyes? You cannot see so many things. Because you cannot see the soul, it does not mean there is no soul. We have to accept the authority.

Indian man (5): Why can't I see?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Indian man (5): Why I can't . . .?

Prabhupāda: Because your eyes are imperfect.

Indian man (5): So what is the proof that there is soul?

Prabhupāda: Because there is a proof—as soon as the soul is gone, you are dead body. That is the proof.

Indian man (5): I should like that thing . . .

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Indian man (5): The thing is I should see.

Prabhupāda: But you must be qualified to know.

Indian man (5): How?

Prabhupāda: That I have already explained, that you must become . . . tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā (BG 4.34). You must approach to a person who knows, by surrender, not by challenge. You cannot know about soul and God by this challenging spirit.

You have to become a submissive. Submissive. You have to accept a spiritual master who knows. Then you'll know. It is not that in a meeting by challenging, you can know. No. That is not possible.

Indian man (5): How to get that master who knows?

Prabhupāda: That you have to search out. If you are fortunate, you'll get.

Indian man (6): In Bhagavad-gītā . . . (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . dvaita-advaita, that we have explained.

Indian man (6): Dvaita-advaita, yes?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Dvaita and advaita. Just like this finger is . . . is my finger. So it is part of this body. So you can, you can say: "This finger is also body." But at the same time, the finger is not the body. Is it clear? You cannot say: "This finger the whole body."

But at the same time, you can say: "Yes, finger is body." If you say: "This is my body," there is no wrong, because finger is also part of the body. But if you say that, "The finger is body," that is also wrong. This is dvaita-advaita. It is simultaneously one and different.

Similarly, the soul and the Supreme Lord, equal in quality. Kṛṣṇa says mamaivāṁśa. The small particle of gold is gold. That is advaita. You cannot say, because it is small particle of gold, you cannot say: "It is iron." It is gold. That is advaita. But the gold mine and the gold earring, there is difference. You cannot say the gold earring is as good as the gold mine. That is dvaita.

So in this way, as so far our spiritual existence is concerned, we are one. But so far our energies are concerned, that is different. That is dvaita-advaita. You have no such big energy as God has. In that sense you are different. God can create millions of universe by His breathing.

Yasyaika-niśvasita-kālam athāvalambya jīvanti loma-vilajā jagad-aṇḍa-nāthāḥ (Bs. 5.48). You can create one small sputnik and take credit. But God can create innumerable universes simply by breathing. So your energy, your power, is different from God's power. But in quality, you are one with God.

Indian man (6): Then you must prove it is dvaita.

Prabhupāda: Heh? Both advaita and dvaita. Both . . .

Indian man (6): How? How? Both can . . .?

Prabhupāda: That, that is, that requires little brain. (laughter) That requires little brain. Not dull brain. Very fertile brain requires. (break) (end)