680930 - Lecture - Seattle

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His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada



680930LE-SEATTLE - September 30, 1968 - 92:45 Minutes



Prabhupāda: (kīrtana) (prema-dhvanī) Thank you very much. (Obeisances)

(21:14)

Lady devotee: Would you like the window open a little?

Madhudviṣa: Do you want the window to be open?

Prabhupāda: Yes. (sings) Govindam Adi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi.

(devotees respond) Govindam Adi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi.

cintāmaṇi-prakara-sadmasu kalpa-vṛkṣa-
lakṣāvṛteṣu surabhīr abhipālayantam
lakṣmī-sahasra-śata-sambhrama-sevyamānaṁ
govindam Adi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi
(Bs. 5.29)

(devotees respond three times: govindam Adi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi)

So our program is to worship with love and devotion Govinda, the original person. Govindam Adi-puruṣaṁ. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are teaching people to love Kṛṣṇa, that's all. Our program is to love, to place your love in the proper place. That is our program. Everyone wants to love, but he is being frustrated on account of his love being misplaced.

People do not understand it. They are being taught, "First of all, you love your body." Then little extended, "You love your father and mother." Then "Love your brother and sister." Then "Love your society," "Love your country," "Love the whole human society, humanity." But all this extended love, so-called love, will not give you satisfaction unless you reach to the point to love Kṛṣṇa. Then you'll be satisfied.

Just like if you throw a stone on some reservoir of water, on a lake, there immediately begins a circle. The circle expands, and expanding, expanding, expanding, when the circle touches the shore, it stops. Unless the circle reaches the bank or the shore of the reservoir of the water, it goes on increasing.

So we have to increase. Increase. The increase means there are two ways. If you practice, "I love my society, I love my country, I love my human nation," then "living entities," go on... But if you directly touch Kṛṣṇa, then everything is there. It is so nice. Because Kṛṣṇa means all-attractive, includes everything.

Why everything? Because Kṛṣṇa is the center. Just like in a family, if you love your father, then you love your brothers, sisters, the servant of your father, the home of your father, the wife of your father, namely, your mother—everyone. The central point is father. This is crude example. Similarly, if you love Kṛṣṇa, then your love will be expanded everywhere.

Another example: just like if you love a tree, the leaves, the flowers, the branches, the trunks, the twigs, everything, you simply pour water on the root, then your loving affairs for the tree will automatically serve. If you love your countrymen, if you want to see that your countryman becomes educated, advanced economically and mentally, physically, then what you'll do?

You pay tax to the government. Don't hide your income tax. You simply pay tax to the central government and it will be distributed to the educational department, to the defense department, to the hygienic department, everywhere.

Therefore... These are crude examples, but actually, if you want to love everything, then you'll try to love Kṛṣṇa. You'll not be frustrated, because that is complete. When your love is complete, then you will not be frustrated. Just like you have got complete feeding. If you are satisfied with food completely, then you say, "I am satisfied. I don't want any more."

So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is very simple. Very simple. It is inaugurated by Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu especially. Although it is very old, in the Vedic scripture, but still, taking from the historical point of view, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is since Lord Kṛṣṇa appeared on the surface of this planet five thousand years ago, and later on, Lord Caitanya, five hundred years ago, He expanded that movement, Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

His mission, Lord Caitanya's mission, is ārādhyo bhagavān vrajeśa-tanayaḥ (SB 1.3.28).

If you want to love, or if you want to be subordinate... Everyone is subordinate. This is false. Everyone wants to be independent, but nobody is independent. Everyone is subordinate. Nobody can say that "I am independent." Can you say, any one of you, that you are independent? Is there anybody? No. Everyone is subordinate willingly. Not by force everyone becomes subordinate.

A girl says a boy, "I want to become your subordinate," willingly. Similarly, a boy says to a girl, "I want to be your subordinate." Why? That is my nature. I want to be subordinate because my nature is to be subordinate. But I do not know. I prefer, I reject this subordination; I accept another subordination. But subordination is there. Just like a worker. He works here. He finds some better wages another place, he goes there. But that does not means he becomes independent. He is subordinate.

So Lord Caitanya teaches that if you want to be subordinate or if you want to worship somebody... Who worships somebody? Unless you feel somebody is greater than you, why shall you worship? I worship my boss because I think that he is greater than me. He gives me wages, salary, monthly six hundred dollars. Therefore I must worship him, I must please him.

So Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that you become a subordinate of Kṛṣṇa. Ārādhyo bhagavān vrajeśa-tanayaḥ (Caitanya-maṣjusā).

If you want to worship, worship Kṛṣṇa. And next? Tad-dhāmaṁ vṛndāvanam. If you want to worship somebody, then love Kṛṣṇa or worship Kṛṣṇa or His place, Vṛndāvana. Because everyone wants to love some place. That is now nationalism—some country. Somebody says, "I love this American land." Somebody says, "I love this Chinese land." Somebody says, "I love the Russian land." So everyone wants to love some land. Bhauma ijya-dhīḥ. Bhauma ijya-dhīḥ (SB 10.84.13).

People are naturally inclined to love some material land. Generally, where he is born he tries to love.

So Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that "Because you are inclined to love some person, you love Kṛṣṇa. Because you want to love some land, you love Vṛndāvana." Ārādhyo bhagavān vrajeśa-tanayas tad-dhāma vṛndāvanam (from Śrīnātha Cakravartī's commentary on Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam). But if somebody says, "How to love Kṛṣṇa? I cannot see Kṛṣṇa. How to love Kṛṣṇa?" then Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, ramyā kācid upāsanā vraja-vadhū-vargeṇa yā kalpitā (Caitanya-maṣjusā).

If you want to learn, if you want to know the process of worshiping Kṛṣṇa, or loving Kṛṣṇa, just try to follow the footprints of the gopīs. Gopīs. The gopīs, their love, the highest perfectional love. Ramyā kācid upāsanā.

There are different kinds of love, or worship, in the world. The beginning is, "O God, give us our daily bread." This is beginning. When we are, I mean to say, taught to love God, we are instructed that "You go to temple, go to church, and pray to God for your necessities, for your grievances." That is the beginning. But that is not pure love. Pure love, perfection of pure love, can be found amongst the gopīs. That is the example.

How? How they love Kṛṣṇa? They love Kṛṣṇa... Kṛṣṇa went to... Kṛṣṇa was a cowherd's boy, and with His friends, other cowherd's boy, He used to go with His cows in the pasturing ground the whole day. That was the system. Because people at that time were satisfied with land and cows. That's all. That is the means of solution of all economic problems. They were not industrial; they were not servant of anyone. Simply get production from the land and take milk from the cows, the whole food problem solved.

So Kṛṣṇa used to go to the pasturing ground, and the gopīs at home... They were girls or women. They... Women or girls were not allowed to work. That is the Vedic system. They should keep at home, and they should be given protection by the father, by the husband or elderly sons. They were not meant for going out.

So they kept themselves at home. But Kṛṣṇa was, say, miles away in the pasturing ground, and the gopīs at home thinking, "Oh, Kṛṣṇa's feet is so soft. Now He's walking on the rough grounds. The particles of stones are pricking His sole. So He must be feeling some pain." In this way thinking, they used to cry. Just see.

Kṛṣṇa is miles away, and what Kṛṣṇa is feeling, they are simply thinking of that feeling: "Kṛṣṇa may be feeling like that." This is love. This is love. They are not asking Kṛṣṇa, "My dear Kṛṣṇa, what You have brought from Your pasturing ground? How is Your pocket? Let me see." No. Simply thinking of Kṛṣṇa, how Kṛṣṇa will be satisfied.

They used to dress themself, because..., and go before Kṛṣṇa with nice dress, "Oh, He'll be happy to see." Generally, a boy or a man becomes happy to see his lover or wife nicely dressed. That is... Therefore it is the nature of the woman to dress nice. And according to Vedic system, a woman should dress very nicely just to satisfy her husband. That is the Vedic system. If her husband is not at home, then she should not dress nicely.

There are injunction. Proṣita bhartṛkā. There are different dresses of woman. By seeing the dress one will understand what she is. One can understand by seeing the dress that she is unmarried girl. One can see simply by the dress that she is married wife. One can see by the dress that she is widow. One can see by the dress that she is prostitute. So dress is so important. So proṣita bhartṛkā.

So we are not going to discuss about the social; we are discussing about love affairs of Kṛṣṇa. So gopīs... Kṛṣṇa and gopī, the relationship was so intimate and so unalloyed that Kṛṣṇa Himself admitted, "My dear gopīs, it is not in My power to repay you about your loving affairs." Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He became bankrupt, that "My dear gopīs, it is not possible for Me to repay your debts which you have created by loving Me." So that is the highest perfection of love. Ramyā kācid upāsanā vraja-vadhū (Caitanya-maṣjusā).

I'm just describing the mission of Lord Caitanya. He is giving us instruction, His mission, that the only lovable object is Kṛṣṇa and His land Vṛndāvana. And the process of loving Him is the vivid example, the gopīs. Nobody can reach. There are different stages of devotees, and gopīs are supposed to be on the highest platform. And amongst the gopīs, the supreme is Rādhārāṇī. Therefore nobody can surpass the love of Rādhārāṇī. Ramyā kācid upāsanā vraja-vadhū-vargeṇa yā kalpitā, śrīmad-bhāgavatam amalaṁ purāṇam (Caitanya-maṣjusā).

Now to learn this, all this science of loving God, there must be some book, some authoritative literature. Yes. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, śrīmad-bhāgavatam amalaṁ purāṇam. The Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, it is spotless description of understanding how to love God. There is no other description. From the beginning it is teaching how to love God. Those who have studied Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, the first verse in the First Canto is, janmādy asya yataḥ, satyaṁ paraṁ dhīmahi (SB 1.1.1).

The beginning is that "I am offering my unalloyed devotion unto the Supreme, from whom everything has emanated." Janmādy asya yataḥ. So it is a... You know, it is a great description.

So Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam... If you want to learn how to love God, or Kṛṣṇa, then study Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. And to understand Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, the preliminary study is Bhagavad-gītā. So study Bhagavad-gītā to understand the real nature or identification of God and yourself and your relationship, and then, when you are little conversant, when you are prepared that "Yes, Kṛṣṇa is the only lovable object," then next book you take, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. And you go on.

Just like Bhagavad-gītā As It Is is entrance. Just like students, they pass their school examination then enters into the college. So you pass your school examination, how to love God, by studying Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. Then study Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, and... That is graduate study. And when you are still farther advanced, postgraduate, then study Teachings of Lord Caitanya.

So there is no difficulty. The fact is that we have to learn how to love Kṛṣṇa. So direction is there and method is there, and we are trying to serve you as far as possible. We are sending our boys in the streets and the town to invite you. And if you kindly take up this opportunity, then your life will be successful. Premā pum-artho mahān (Śrīnātha Cakravartī's commentary on Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam).

Because this human form of life is meant for developing love for God. Because in all other life we have learned..., we have loved. We have loved our children, we have loved our wife, we have loved our nest in the bird's life, in the beast's life. There is love. There is no necessity of teaching a bird or beast how to love the children. There is no necessity, because that is natural.

To love your home, to love your country, to love your husband, to love your children, to love your wife, so on, you go on, all this love, more or less they are all in the animal kingdom also. But that sort of love will not give you happiness. You'll be frustrated. Because this body is temporary, therefore all these loving affairs are also temporary, and they are not pure. They are simply a perverted reflection of the pure love that is existing between you and Kṛṣṇa.

So if you want really peace, if you really want satisfaction, if you don't want to be confused, then try to love Kṛṣṇa. This is the plain program. Then your life will be successful. The Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is not something manufactured to mislead and bluff the people. It is a most authorized movement.

Vedic literature, the Bhagavad-gītā, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Vedānta-sūtra, Purāṇam, and many, many great saintly persons adopted this means. And the vivid example is Lord Caitanya. You see His picture, He is in the dancing mood. So you have to learn this art, then our life will be successful.

You haven't got to practice anything artificial and speculating and bother your brain and... You have the instinct for loving others. That is instinctive, natural. Simply we are misplacing love, and therefore we are frustrated. Frustrated. Confused. So if you don't want to be confused, if you don't want to be frustrated, then try to love Kṛṣṇa, and you'll feel yourself how you are making progress in peacefulness, in happiness, in everything that you want.

Thank you very much. (devotees offer obeisances)

Any question?

Madhudviṣa: Prabhupāda? Is it all right for us to read the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam after we've received your Bhagavad-gītā when it comes out? Or should we just completely devote all our time to studying the Bhagavad-gītā As It Is, and then we..., and then progress from there? Or should we continue our study of the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam?

Prabhupāda: No. You should read Bhagavad-gītā As It Is, and... This is only a preliminary division. In the spiritual platform, everything is absolute. If you read Bhagavad-gītā, you'll find the same proposition as in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. It is not that because you are studying Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam that you haven't got to study Bhagavad-gītā. It is not like that.

You read these literatures and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, follow the rules and regulation and live happily. Our program is very happy program. We chant, we dance, we eat kṛṣṇa-prasādam, we paint nice pictures of Kṛṣṇa and see them nicely decorated, and we read philosophy. So what you want more? (laughs)

Yes?

Jāhnavā: How and why did we lose our awareness of our true love for Kṛṣṇa in the beginning?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How and why... How and why did we lose our love for Kṛṣṇa in the beginning?

Jāhnavā: No, not the love. Just the awareness of the love, of our true love for Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Our awareness is there. You love somebody. But you are meant to love Kṛṣṇa, that you have forgotten. So forgetfulness is also our nature. Sometimes we forget. And especially because we are very small, minute, therefore even I cannot remember exactly what I was doing last night at this time. So forgetfulness is not unnatural for us. And again, if somebody revives our memory, to accept that, that is also not unnatural.

So our loving object is Kṛṣṇa. Somehow or other, we have forgotten Him. We don't trace the history when we forgot. That is useless labor. But we have forgotten, that is a fact. Now revive it. Here is reminder. So take opportunity. Don't try to history why you have forgotten and what was the date of my forgetfulness. Even if you know, what is the use? You have forgotten. Take it. Just like if you go to a physician, he'll never ask you how you got this disease, what is the history of this disease, at what date, at what time you were infected. No. He simply feels your pulse and sees that you have got a disease and he gives you the medicine: "Yes. You take it."

Similarly, we are suffering. That is a fact. Nobody can deny. Why you are suffering? Forgetting Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Now you revive your memory about Kṛṣṇa, you become happy. That's all. Very simple thing. Now don't try to find out the history when you forgot. You have forgotten, that is a fact, because you are suffering. Now here is an opportunity, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Revive your memory, your love for Kṛṣṇa.

Simple thing. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, dance, and take kṛṣṇa-prasādam. And if you are not educated, you are illiterate, hear. Just you have got natural gift, ear. You have got natural tongue. So you can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and you can hear Bhagavad-gītā or Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam from persons who are in the knowledge.

So there is no impediment. No impediment. It does not require any prequalification. Simply you have to use whatever asset you have got. That's all. You must agree. That is wanted. "Yes, I shall take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness." That depends on you, because you are independent. If you disagree, "No. Why shall I take to Kṛṣṇa?" nobody can give you. But if you agree, it is here, very easy: take it.

Guest: Maybe you've already answered this. I'm not sure; I didn't hear. But I have always been taught since I was a little kid to love God and then I will love everything. Is God Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: Yes. You have got any other God? Any other God than Kṛṣṇa?

Guest: Ah, what was the question again?

Prabhupāda: You said...

Guest: Oh, no, no...

Prabhupāda: Just try to understand what is God.

Guest: I didn't know that God was Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: No, everything has got definition. Just like if I say "This is watch," so it has a definition. Watch means it is round and there is a white dial and there are two hands, there are so many figures indicating time. Like that, I can give you some description. So anything, whatever you see or experience or try to understand, there must be some definition. So when you speak of God, do you know what is the definition of God?

Guest: Yes. I thought He was love.

Prabhupāda: Love is not definition; love is the action. Yes, love. I love God. Love is my activity. But there must be some definition of God. That also you know. You now forget. Now, in one word, they say "God is great." So how do you test one's greatness? Next point. If you say that "This man is very great," now there must be an understanding how you estimate that he is great. These are different stages of understanding.

So how do you understand that God is great? What is your calculation, that from..., on this point, God is great? Just like in your Bible it is said, "God said, 'Let there be creation,' and there was creation." Is it not? Is it not statement? So here is greatness. He simply said, "Let there be creation," and there was creation. Can you do that? Suppose you are very nice carpenter. Can you say, "Let there be a chair," and at once there is a chair? Is it possible? Suppose you are manufacturer of this watch. Can you say that "I say, 'Let there be watch,' " and there is immediately watch? That is not possible.

Therefore God's name is satya-saṅkalpa. Satya-saṅkalpa. Satya-saṅkalpa means whatever He thinks, immediately it is present. Not only God, but those who have attained yogic perfection, they cannot desire like God, but almost. Wonderful things... A yogī, if he has got perfection, if he desires something, that "I want this," immediately it is there. This is called satya-saṅkalpa.

In this way, there are many examples. That is greatness. What I... Just like the modern scientists, they are trying to fly some space machine in the good speed so that they can go to the moon planet. So many scientists of America, Russia and other countries, they are trying. But they cannot. Their sputnik is coming back. But just see God's power. Millions of planets are floating just like swabs. This is greatness.

So any nonsense, if he says that "I am God," he's a rascal. God is great. You cannot compare yourself with God. There is no comparison. But the rascaldom is going on: "Everyone is God. I am God, you are God"—then who is dog? You show the power of God, then you say. "First deserve, then desire." What power we have got? We're all His dependent. So God is great, and we are dependent on God.

Therefore natural conclusion is that we have to serve God. This is the whole problem(?). Serving means with love. Unless... Now just like these boys, my disciples, they are serving me. Whatever I say, they are immediately executing. Why? I am an Indian, I am a foreigner. Two or three years ago I was not known to them, nor they were known to me. Why they are doing that? Because it is love. Serving means developing love.

So unless you develop your love for God, you cannot serve Him. Anywhere. Whenever you give some service, it is based on love. Just like mother giving service to the helpless child. Why? Love. So similarly, our life will be perfect when our love is perfect with the perfect Supreme Personality of Godhead. Then it is all right. You have to learn this. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness: in a relationship with Kṛṣṇa. Just like I am loving my disciples; my disciples are loving me. Why? What is the medium? Kṛṣṇa.

Yes?

Lady guest: Is Rāma synonymous with Jesus?

Devotee: Rāma. "Is Rāma synonymous, the same as Jesus."

Prabhupāda: Synonymous..., not exactly synonymous, but identical. Synonymous cannot be said. Identical.

Lady guest: Oh, identical.

Prabhupāda: Yes. In the absolute platform everything is identical. In the relative world also. Just like anything you take, it is material. So material identity. Similarly, in the spiritual world everything is spiritual. So in the spiritual world God and God's son or God's friend or God's lover, anyone is the... They're in the same platform, spiritual. Therefore they are identical.

Lady guest (2): But doesn't Rāma refer to a man that was born..., I'm not..., in India or something, and Christ was born in Europe? Two different men, but still the same, the same...

Prabhupāda: Yes. The sun is every day born in India, born in Europe, born in America. Does it mean that he's Indian or American or Chinese?

Lady guest (2): No, that's not what I mean.

Prabhupāda: Then? Therefore it is like that. When... This is our limited knowledge. We have been taught in that way. But "God is great." Just like the sun is great; therefore even the sun is seen in India or in America or China, anywhere, any part of the world, any part of the universe, the sun is one. Nobody can say, "Oh, it is American sun" or "It is Indian sun."

So either Jesus Christ or Rāma or Kṛṣṇa, whoever comes from the kingdom of God, they are the same. There is no difference. But the difference is... Just like in your country temperature of sun is less, and in a tropical country the temperature of the sun is very great. Does it mean the sun's temperature is changed? It is according to the reception. The atmosphere of this country is so surcharged that you cannot receive the sunshine properly, but the sunshine distributes its shining everywhere the same.

Similarly, according to the country, according to the circumstances, according to the planet, God is manifested differently, but He is not different. You are wrapping your body with some winter clothes. Same time, telegraph in India, oh, they are running fan. Why the temperature is different? Therefore whatever Lord Jesus Christ says or whatever Kṛṣṇa says or what Rāma says, that is in terms of the place, in terms of the circumstances, atmosphere, persons, hearer. There is different.

One thing which I try to convince a child is not possible to teach the same thing to his father. Or a child cannot understand what is sex life, but a young man can understand. The same child, when he'll be grown up, he'll know. So you do not think that everyone can understand everything.

So Bible is spoken under certain circumstances; Bhagavad-gītā is spoken under certain circumstances. It is the difference of the circumstances. Otherwise, the principle is the same. In the Bible also it is said, "Love God," and Bhagavad-gītā also says, "Love God." There is no difference.

Upendra: Prabhupāda, what is the nature of anger? How is anger...?

Prabhupāda: Anger means lust. When you are lusty and your lust is not fulfilled, you become angry. That's all. It is another feature of the lust. Kāma eṣa krodha eṣa rajo-guṇa-samudbhavaḥ (BG 3.37).

When you are too much influenced with the modes of passion, you become lusty. And when your lust is not fulfilled, then you are angry, next stage. And next stage is that there is bewilderment. And then next stage is praṇaśyati, then you are lost. Therefore one has to control this lust and anger.

This controlling means you have to put yourself in the modes of goodness, not in the modes of passion. There are three modes of material nature: modes of ignorance, modes of passion and modes of goodness. Therefore if anyone wants to know the science of God, then he has to keep himself on the modes of goodness. Otherwise he cannot. Therefore we are teaching our students that "You don't do this, you don't do this, you don't do this, you don't do this," because he has to keep himself on the modes of goodness. Otherwise he'll not be able to understand.

Kṛṣṇa consciousness cannot be understood on the platform of ignorance and passion. The whole world is under the influence of ignorance and passion. But this method is so simple that if you simply follow the four principles of restriction and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, you are immediately surpassing all the modes of material nature. So the anger is on the platform of passion.

Yes?

Young man: Can you explain subordination again?

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Explain subordination again.

Prabhupāda: Subordination, that... It is simple. You are subordinate. You don't understand what is subordination? Is it very difficult? Are you not subordinate to somebody?

Young man: Well, yes, I suppose you could say I was.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You must. Everyone. Everyone must be subordinate, in subordination.

Young man: Yes, in a spiritual sense though, I don't feel subordinate to...

Prabhupāda: First of all you understand what is spiritual life, then... In the spiritual sense also you are subordinate, because your nature is subordination. Spiritual..., what do you mean by spiritual and material?

Young man: Well, like, my body is in a particular place and time, and all of these (indistinct). If I have a job, then I'm subordinate to my boss. But the real, my whole being, my real being, my inner being doesn't... I don't think that I am subordinate to my boss. I think that we would be more or less equal. In a temporary sense, we are...

Prabhupāda: Yes. This consciousness is very nice, that you are feeling dissatisfaction being subordinate to your boss. Is that not?

Young man: No, that's not right.

Prabhupāda: Then?

Young man: I don't especially...

Prabhupāda: Anyone.

Young man: I don't think that... Well, speaking about this specific incident, it isn't necessarily true that I wouldn't want..., that I would feel jealous of this guy because he was over me. But I just feel as beings we are more or less all equal. I mean, you know, it's kind of a philosophy that I have. I don't feel that I have to bow down to anybody, and I don't feel anybody should bow down to me.

Prabhupāda: Why? Why? You do not bow down? Why?

Young man: Because I don't feel that I owe him anything or he owes me anything.

Prabhupāda: So that is the disease. We are forced to bow down, and we think that "I don't like to bow down." This is the disease.

Young man: He didn't force me to bow down.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Young man: He isn't forcing me to do anything. I'm just kind of there, and he's kind of there.

Prabhupāda: No. Just try to understand. It is a very nice question. You say that "I do not want to bow down." Is it not?

Young man: That's basically true, yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Why?

Young man: Because I don't feel like I'm inferior to...

Prabhupāda: That is the disease. You have diagnosed your own disease. That is the disease of materialism. Everyone is thinking that "I want to be master. I don't wish to bow down myself." Everyone is thinking, not only yourself. Just try...

Young man: Uh...

Prabhupāda: Let me finish this. This is the disease, material disease. First of all try to understand. It is not your disease or my disease or... Everyone's disease is this, that "Why shall I bow down? Why shall I become subordinate?" But nature is forcing me to become subordinate. Now who wants to meet death? Why people are dying? Can you answer this?

Young man: Why are people dying?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Nobody wants to die.

Young man: I thought it was a biological...

Prabhupāda: Just try to understand. Who is here... That means biological force. You are subordinate to biology. Then why do you say that you are independent?

Young man: Well, I feel that I'm...

Prabhupāda: You are feeling wrongly. That is my point. That is your disease.

Young man: I'm feeling lonely?

Prabhupāda: Yes, wrongly.

Young man: Wrongly?

Prabhupāda: Yes. You are subordinate. You must have to bow down. When death is there, you cannot say, "Oh, I don't obey you." Therefore you are subordinate.

Young man: I am subordinate to God, yes.

Prabhupāda: No, no, don't... Forget God. Just now we are speaking common sense.

Young man: Kṛṣṇa... I don't...

Prabhupāda: No. Don't speak of Kṛṣṇa. That is far away. You just try to understand that you do not want to die, why you are forced to death?

Young man: Why am I forced to death?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because you are subordinate.

Young man: Oh, yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Then you understand your position, that you are subordinate. You cannot declare that "I am free. I am not subordinate." If you are wishing that "I don't wish to be subordinate, don't wish to bow down," that is your disease.

Young man: What do you want me to... I mean, what...

Prabhupāda: No, first of all try to understand your disease. Then we shall diagnose your medicine.

Young man: I'm feeling wrongly, okay, but... But who do I or what... What exactly do I bow down to? I mean...

Prabhupāda: You are bowing down to everyone. You are bowing down to death, you are bowing down to disease, you are bowing down to old age. You are bowing down to so many things. You are forced. And still you are thinking that "I cannot bow down. I don't like." Because you are saying "I don't like," therefore you are being forced. You have to bow down. Why you forget your position? That is our disease.

Therefore the next process is that "I am being forced to bow down." Now we have to find out where I shall be happy even by bowing down. That is Kṛṣṇa. Your bowing down will not be stopped, because you are meant for that. But if you bow down to Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's representative, you become happy. Test this. You have to bow down. If you don't bow down to Kṛṣṇa and His representative, then you will be forced to bow down something else, māyā. That is your position.

You cannot be free at any moment. But you'll feel... Just like a child is twenty-four hours bowing down to his parents. He's happy. He's happy. Mother says, "My dear child, please come down, sit down here." "Yes." He's happy. This is the nature. Simply you have to seek out where you have to bow down, that's all. That is Kṛṣṇa. You cannot stop your bowing down, but you have to see where you have to bow down. That's all.

If you artificially think that "I'm not going to bow down anyone. I am independent," then you suffer. Simply you have to seek out the proper place where you have to bow down. That's all. All right. Chant. (devotees offer obeisances)

Give them prasādam. They are going.

(81:27)

(kīrtana) (prema-dhvani) Thank you very much. (devotees offer obeisances) (end)