770513 - Conversation - Hrishikesh

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Go-previous.pngConversations by Date, 1977
His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada



770513ED-HRISHIKESH - May 13, 1977 - 64:34 Minutes



Prabhupāda: (break) You told me, from the siddhi...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Someone came this morning. He was asking that... He was hoping that because he had heard that you had some mystical powers, so he was hoping that you could help his situation by demonstrating some of these mystical powers.

Prabhupāda: Some magic. Our magic is already there. Throughout the whole world we are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Is not that magic? Hmm? Foreign countries, foreign religion, and they are accepting Kṛṣṇa and chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Is not that magic?

Indian man (1): It is.

Prabhupāda: And still more magic? The world is chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Boliye?

yoginām api sarveṣāṁ
mad-gatenāntar-ātmanā
śraddhāvān bhajate yo māṁ
sa me yuktatamo mataḥ
(BG 6.47)

He is yogī. There are many varieties of yogīs. And Kṛṣṇa concludes, "Of all the yogīs, big, big yogīs, the person who is always remembering Kṛṣṇa and chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra is first class." This is said by Kṛṣṇa, not by me. Therefore it is authorized statement. Without Kṛṣṇa consciousness, all these mystic powers... They may be temporarily some magic, but Kṛṣṇa says that "One who is always remembering Me," satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ yatantaś ca dṛḍha-vratāḥ (BG 9.14), "he is first-class yogī." So all these persons who are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa according to the prescribed rules and regulations, without any offense... There are ten kinds of offenses. So in the beginning there may be offenses. It doesn't matter. It will be rectified. Offenseless chanting means mukti, and then pure chanting means love of Godhead. There are three stages. In the beginning, when one begins chanting, it is not pure; there are so many offenses. But chanting, chanting, the offenses become purified. (background talking) Offenseless chanting is not purified completely, but it is offenseless. So offenseless chanting makes one liberated, and then pure chanting makes one lover of God. This is the process. So chanting is a great mystic power. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has recommended, ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12): "By chanting, your heart becomes purified." Ceto-darpaṇa. We are suffering in this material world on account of... (background talking) (aside:) Ask him not to talk loudly. On account of impurities... (aside:) What is the use of talking? The first impurity is identifying... (aside:) Stop him. Don't talk at all.

Indian man (1): It is one gentle..., one person. He says, "I am Bengali." And he has got some trouble. He was told that "If you have got any physical trouble, go to the medical practitioners."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian man (1): "If you have got any spiritual, then you can stay." He is continuing. That is all.

Prabhupāda: (aside:) Don't talk. Why you are talking? So our real trouble is that we have become conditioned by the material identification, "I am this body." Everyone is thinking, "I am Indian," "I am American," "I am brāhmaṇa," "I am sannyāsī," everything identification with the body. That is the dirty thing. So one has to purify, that "I am neither American, neither Indian, nor brāhmaṇa, or so many designations." Then it is called cleansing the heart. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktam (CC Madhya 19.170). That is mukti, when you don't identify with this material body. And so long you identify with this material body, either you become a sannyāsī with some beard or a gṛhastha without some beard, the same thing—identifying with the body. So ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12) means to become free from the bodily designation. And śāstra says, yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke (SB 10.84.13). This body is composition of three dhātu—kapha, pitta, vāyu—according to Āyur Veda; and according to medical science, it is skin and then muscle, blood, bone and marrow, stool, urine, those, combination. So I am not this combination of stool, bone, skin, blood. But people are taking like that. When they are diseased, they take care of the body. Of course, it is not that we should not take care. But that is superficial. Real care should be taken of the soul within the body. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe (BG 2.13). Dehinaḥ, dehī. Dehinaḥ and deha.

So anyone who is identifying with this body in either... According to Vedic civilization, the bodily identification is divided into eight: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha and sannyāsa. Varṇāśrama-dharma. So human civilization begins, according to Vedic understanding, when there is varṇāśrama system. Otherwise it is not human civilization. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā it is stated, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam (BG 4.13). This system should be followed. Then, gradually, one has to come to the spiritual. Chaotic society cannot help us. There must be systematic social order: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, cātur-varṇyam, and brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha and sannyāsa. Sannyāsa is not voluntary, but it is compulsory. At the last stage one must take sannyāsa. After fiftieth year one must take to vānaprastha, vanaṁ vrajet. This is system. So, system of purification, how to become designationless. And if we keep the designation, then, śāstra says, sa eva go-kharaḥ (SB 10.84.13): "One who keeps the bodily designation, he's no better than the cows and the asses, animal." So Caitanya Mahāprabhu recommends that... Caitanya Mahā... This is the śāstric, Vedic culture, that we have to purify ourselves from the bodily designation. That is called ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12), cleansing the dirty things within the core of the heart, that "I am this"—"I am Indian," "I am American," "I am brāhmaṇa," "I am sannyāsī," "I am gṛhastha," "I am white," "I am black." These are the dirty things. So these dirty things can be cleansed by chanting this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. Śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ (SB 1.2.17). This chanting and hearing is puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ. If you do not know anything about, if you simply chant and hear, you become purified, puṇya. Because on account of dirty things, impious life, you have become covered by different bodies. Mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani. Different bodies means the way of birth and death. That you have to stop. And that is stopped when you get Kṛṣṇa; otherwise not. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, I think, in the Ninth Chapter... Find out this verse, aśraddadhānāḥ puruṣā dharmasyāsya parantapa, mām aprāpya (BG 9.3). You cannot get Kṛṣṇa. If you have no faith in Bhagavad-gītā, then you cannot get Kṛṣṇa. If you don't care for Kṛṣṇa, that is another thing, but if you want to get Kṛṣṇa, then what Kṛṣṇa says, you follow. Read.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:

aśraddadhānāḥ puruṣā
dharmasyāsya parantapa
aprāpya māṁ nivartante
mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani
(BG 9.3)

Translation: "Those who are not faithful on the path of devotional service cannot attain Me, O conqueror of foes, but return to birth and death in this material world."

Prabhupāda: Purport?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Purport: "The faithless cannot accomplish this process of devotional of service. That is the purport of this verse. Faith is created by association with devotees. Unfortunate people, even after hearing all the evidence of Vedic literature from great personalities, still have no faith in God." (break)

Prabhupāda: Pure bhakti.

anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ
jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam
ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu-
śīlanaṁ bhaktir uttamā
(Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.1.11)

There should be no mixture of jñāna and karma or even yoga. Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu... Simply to cultivate Kṛṣṇa consciousness favorably. "Favorably" means what Kṛṣṇa wants. That is favorable. If you do what Kṛṣṇa wants, that is favorable. And if you do what Kṛṣṇa does not want, that is unfavorable; that is not bhakti. Just like Kaṁsa. He was always thinking of Kṛṣṇa, but that was not favorably. He was thinking otherwise, how to kill Kṛṣṇa, and that is not bhakti. The gopīs were also thinking of Kṛṣṇa, how to make Him happy, and that is favorable. So ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśīlanaṁ bhaktir uttamā (CC Madhya 19.167). Without any mixture, adulteration of jñāna and karma, that is pure devotion. Then?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Those who have no faith, even after hearing about Kṛṣṇa and the excellence of devotional service, who think that it is simply eulogy, find the path very difficult even if they are supposed..." (break)

Prabhupāda: So without this faith, nobody can achieve the association of Kṛṣṇa. There are two things. You become associate of Kṛṣṇa, or you become associate of this material world. So if you do not become associate of Kṛṣṇa, then the next step is this association of material world. And association of material world means accepting one type of body and enjoy or suffer for some time; then you get another body. Mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani (BG 9.3). Now we have to make our choice, whether you want to stop this material way of life and attain the eternal spiritual life...

mām upetya punar janma
duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam
nāpnuvanti mahātmānaḥ
saṁsiddhiṁ paramāṁ gatāḥ
(BG 8.15)

If you get the association of Kṛṣṇa, then you haven't got to come here, this material world. Duḥkhālayam. Kṛṣṇa says it is duḥkhālayam. Either you take birth in a very rich, aristocratic family, born in the upper planetary system as demigods—Brahmā, Indra, Candra, like that—or you take your birth, an insignificant ant; wherever you are in material body, it is duḥkhālayam. That you cannot avoid. Duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam (BG 8.15). And you cannot make any compromise that "Never mind it is very much miserable. I shall enjoy." So that also will not be allowed. Aśāśvatam. Your tendency is to live forever. So that will not be allowed. Aśāśvata. So this requires knowledge, intelligence, that "If I am eternal," na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20), "I am not destroyed even this body is destroyed." Then you should seek after eternal happiness. Why temporary? That is not in your interest. That eternal happiness you will have when you go back to Kṛṣṇa; otherwise not. These are the statement in the Bhagavad-gītā.

So if we do not try to understand the real purpose of Bhagavad-gītā, and if we theorize, "Bhagavad-gītā means nonviolence. Bhagavad-gītā means to become patriot," these are materialism. We should avoid this wrong interpretation, misguiding direction of blind leaders. We'll not get any benefit out of it. So we are trying to rectify this. That's all. Everything is there. Any question is solved by Kṛṣṇa. Politics, economics, religion, culture, philosophy—everything is discussed very thoroughly. Simply one has to understand. Then he becomes fixed up in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. People are generally after yoga, especially the Westerners. I think they have come here for perfection of yoga. But here it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, mayy āsakta-manāḥ pārtha yogaṁ yuñjan mad-āśrayaḥ. That is first class, to increase your attachment for Kṛṣṇa. Mayy āsakta-manāḥ pārtha yogaṁ yuñjan. This is yoga, how to increase the attachment for Kṛṣṇa. This is called bhakti-yoga. So this yoga can be practiced—mayy āsakta-manāḥ pār..., yogam, mad-āśrayaḥ, not anyone's other's āśraya. Mad-āśrayaḥ. Taking shelter of Kṛṣṇa or taking shelter of Kṛṣṇa's personal persons, personal associates, mat-para. Mat-para means one who has dedicated his life for Kṛṣṇa. He is called mat-para. Or directly under Kṛṣṇa. Directly under Kṛṣṇa is difficult. Because we do not understand Kṛṣṇa, therefore we have to take shelter of a person who is already under the shelter of Kṛṣṇa.

Indian man (1): But mat-para people are very seldom available.

Prabhupāda: No. How do you know? If you do not know what is the meaning of mat-para, how you can say "seldom"? Do you know what is mat-para? Unless you know who is mat-para, how you can say like that? You have no knowledge. Mat-para means a simple thing: one who has fully surrendered to Kṛṣṇa. That's all. This is very seldom? There are so many. But you have decided "seldom." Why seldom? Here you see so many young men, our association. They are fully surrendered to Kṛṣṇa. They do not know anything else than Kṛṣṇa. So why it is seldom? You won't take. That is your fault. Rather, they are coming to you. They are canvassing. But you are so stubborn, you'll not take it. That is your fault. They are canvassing door to door. Why do you say, "It is seldom"? It is very easily available. But you won't take. That is your fault. Caitanya Mahāprabhu personally came, and He canvassed door to door. He sent His men door to door. We are sending all over the world. But you do not come. Mat-para is not seldom. At least at the present moment, it has become very easily available. But you don't take. That is your fault. (break)

Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam. That is... Caitanya Mahāprabhu says. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanaṁ bhava-mahā-dāvāgni..., śreyaḥ-kairava-candrikā-vitaraṇaṁ vidyā-vadhū-jīvanam, ānandāmbudhi-vardhanam (CC Antya 20.12). Ānandāmbudhi. Ambudhi means sea. You do not find that the sea is increasing. But this transcendental sea of blissful life increases. Ānandāmbudhi-vardhanaṁ sarvātma-snapanaṁ paraṁ vijayate śrī-kṛṣṇa-saṅkīrtanam. Very simple thing. You take to śrī-kṛṣṇa-saṅkīrtanam and see the result. Why you say it is seldom? It is very easy, but you won't take. Seldom we find the followers. Otherwise it is very cheap. Rūpa Gosvāmī worshiped Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu with these words:

namo mahā-vadānyāya
kṛṣṇa-prema-pradāya te
kṛṣṇāya kṛṣṇa-caitanya-
nāmne gaura-tviṣe namaḥ
(CC Madhya 19.53)

"My Lordship, Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, You are the most magnanimous person of charity." Why? Now, kṛṣṇa-prema-pradāya: "One cannot understand Kṛṣṇa, and You are directly delivering love of Kṛṣṇa." It is not seldom. If you want to love somebody, you must know him. Love is not with the air. If you want to love somebody, then you must know what he is and why should I love him. So nobody can understand Kṛṣṇa. Where is the question of love? If you do not understand what is Kṛṣṇa, the question of loving Him does not arise. But here Caitanya Mahāprabhu is giving directly love of Kṛṣṇa. That means Kṛṣṇa understanding is automatically. Finished. Therefore He is addressed as the most magnanimous.

So it is not at all seldom. As the age is fallen, the most magnanimous incarnation is Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and He is giving directly Kṛṣṇa, kṛṣṇa-prema. You take it. Why don't you take it? It is not seldom. You do not like to take it. That is the disease. And that is aśraddadhāna. There is no śraddhā. Aśraddadhānāḥ puruṣāḥ, mām aprāpya (BG 9.3). How you can get Kṛṣṇa? There is no śraddhā. Therefore they must suffer in the cycle of birth and death. Nivartante mṛtyu-saṁsāra. So you voluntarily accept this cycle of birth, don't accept Kṛṣṇa—then who can help you? If you have decided to cut your own throat, how can I help you? You'll do it. Whenever you'll get opportunity, you'll cut your throat. How much I can give you protection? That is going on. They have no faith in the words of Kṛṣṇa. They'll manufacture ideas. It is not "seldom." It is my dog's obstinacy that is checking. We cannot give up. Kṛṣṇa has..., sarva-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66). That you cannot do. You want to keep in the same position, and at the same time, you want to understand Kṛṣṇa. That is not possible. In this Hrishikesh, tīrtha-kṣetra, everyone comes to get some spiritual enlightenment, but who is talking of Kṛṣṇa? Am I right? And there is Gītā-bhavan, Gītā this, Gītā that. What is that "Gītā"? Gītā commentation... Nobody's interested. They don't like to hear even about Kṛṣṇa. This is the position.

So mat-para is not seldom. (laughs) The followers are seldom. But Kṛṣṇa says mat-para. "If you want to practice this yoga..." Mayy āsakta-manāḥ pārtha yogam... This is yoga. Imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam (BG 4.1). This is real yoga. So nobody's interested. Then what can be done? My Guru Mahārāja used to say that "If one is selling langlam(?), and he's canvassing, 'Please come here. Take langlam. There is no price for it,' then people will not take. 'Why langlam he's distributing free?' " So that is the position. We are going to door to door: "Take Kṛṣṇa." They think, "It is very cheap thing. What is the use? Let us practice some other yoga." And Kṛṣṇa says, yoginām api sarveṣām (BG 6.47). We don't take. So langlam is not seldom, but the person who take langlam is seldom. This is the difficulty. Kṛṣṇa says, "By this practice of yoga..." Aiye.

mayy āsakta-manāḥ pārtha
yogaṁ yuñjan mad-āśrayaḥ
asaṁśayaṁ samagraṁ māṁ
yathā jñāsyasi tac chṛṇu
(BG 7.1)

(indistinct) He says, "How you can understand Me perfectly," samagram, "and," asaṁśayam, "without any doubt." So Kṛṣṇa is speaking about Him, which is without any doubt and without any difficulty, in fullness, but who is hearing Him? That is seldom. Otherwise Kṛṣṇa has become very easily available. Namo mahā-vadānyāya kṛṣṇa-prema-pradāya te (CC Madhya 19.53). Even kṛṣṇa-prema. But we won't take. Is it seldom?

Indian man (1): Our fault.

Prabhupāda: Hmm? Yes.

Indian man (1): Our fault.

Prabhupāda: It is our fault we won't take. A man has fallen in the blind well, and he's crying, "Save me! Save me!" and when somebody comes and gives him a rope—"You catch it. I shall lift you"—but he'll not touch it, then who can save him? The rope is there, the man is there, and he is crying; but when we request that "You take it," he won't take. Aiye. So how he can be saved? And Kṛṣṇa said, mad-āśrayaḥ. But he'll not take mad-āśrayaḥ. He'll take āśraya of something else. This is the position. Mayy āsakta-manāḥ pārtha. People are harassed to understand God, whether there is God or not God, who is God. When I first went to America, the theory was going that "God is dead." And what was the...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There was a newspaper...

Prabhupāda: Paper... Yes?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: When Prabhupāda first did the first public kīrtana, they said that "We thought God is dead, but now we see that Swami Bhaktivedanta has made God alive again."

Prabhupāda: This was the first remark. Then, gradually, these boys joined. They were after God, but they were given to understand that "God is dead. Now you take to LSD." So the... God is speaking:

mayy āsakta-manāḥ pārtha
yogaṁ yuñjan mad-āśrayaḥ
asaṁśayaṁ samagraṁ māṁ
yathā jñāsyasi tac chṛṇu
(BG 7.1)

"Take perfect knowledge of God from Me." Why don't you do that? Boliye. What is the reason? Boliye, Swāmījī. When God is speaking that "You take from Me perfect and complete knowledge of God," so why don't you take it?

Indian man (1): We are still attached to material side.

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, but we are denying. Is it not? Hmm? When... Suppose a big man. You do not know what he is. But if the man says, "You want to know me? All right, I shall disclose all my secrets to you. Try to understand." So why don't you..., do not take it? If you want to know the person, and the person is explaining himself, why don't you take it? Why theorize that "God is like this. God is like this"? What is the meaning? When the person has come to explain about himself... Asaṁśayaṁ samagraṁ māṁ yathā jñāsyasi tac chṛṇu (BG 7.1): "Hear." Hearing is the process of knowledge. Therefore our Vedas are called śruti. The knowledge has to be acquired through ear. My Guru Mahārāja used to say that "Don't try to see a sādhu by your eyes. You try to see a sādhu by ears." Karṇe(?) sādhu dekhi. (Hindi) Tāvac ca śobhate mūrkhaḥ yāvat kiñcin na bhāṣate. (Hindi) For real perfect knowledge, one has to hear. Śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham. Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet, śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham (MU 1.2.12). Śābde pare ca niṣṇātaṁ brahmaṇy upaśamāśrayam. There is guru. One who has heard perfectly from the authorities, he is guru. Tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam (SB 11.3.21). And who is guru? Śābde pare ca niṣṇātaṁ brahmaṇy upaśamāśrayam. Every direction is there.

tad viddhi praṇipātena
paripraśnena sevayā
upadekṣyanti te jñānaṁ
jñāninas tattva-darśinaḥ
(BG 4.34)

So about from... Apart from śāstra, the vedānta-kṛt, vedānta-vit, Kṛṣṇa, He is speaking. Asaṁśayaṁ samagraṁ māṁ yathā jñāsyasi tac chṛṇu (BG 7.1): "Just hear." And He's vedānta-vit, vedānta-kṛt. He knows what is Vedānta, and He has compiled Vedānta, and He is ready to speak. We don't hear Kṛṣṇa. How much unfortunate we are. (aside:) Here.

Indian man (2): (Hindi)

Prabhupāda: (Hindi) (Hindi conversation) So naturally he'll be averse to māyā. He's no more interested. (Hindi) Nonsense. This is the test. Kṛṣṇa-bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavaḥ. (Hindi) There is no need of separate endeavor. (Hindi) The first line Kṛṣṇa says that aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ prajñā-vādāṁś ca bhāṣase, gatāsūn agatāsūṁś ca nānuśocanti (BG 2.11). (Hindi) (Hindi conversation) Find out this, teṣām evānukampārtham (BG 10.11), mṛtyu-saṁsāra-sāgarāt. (Hindi) Read it.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:

teṣām ahaṁ samuddhartā
mṛtyu-saṁsāra-sāgarāt
bhavāmi na cirāt pārtha
mayy āveśita-cetasām
(BG 12.7)

Prabhupāda: No. Teṣām evānukampārtham.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:

teṣām evānukampārtham
aham ajñāna-jaṁ tamaḥ
nāśayāmy ātma-bhāva-stho
jñāna-dīpena bhāsvatā
(BG 10.11)

"Out of compassion for them, I, dwelling in their hearts, destroy with the shining lamp of knowledge the darkness born of ignorance."

Prabhupāda: Is there any purport?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Purport by Śrīla Prabhupāda: "When..." (break)

Prabhupāda: So let us stop today. Somebody kīrtana. (kīrtana begins) (end).