770419 - Conversation B - Bombay

Conversations by Date, 1977

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

770419R2-BOMBAY - April 19, 1977 - 46:36 Minutes

(loud background noise throughout)

Prabhupāda: And this opening hospital, that is not Vedic civilization.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No.

Prabhupāda: That is Western idea. "Give him some relief." Modern.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Most of the, they instead of relieving, they make things even more difficult.

Prabhupāda: Because they do not know. Nowadays they make experiment.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I got the feeling that that gentleman yesterday was experimenting . . .

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . or guessing. Have you read the book of Satsvarūpa Mahārāja?

Prabhupāda: No. You have read?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. I was thinking I could read some portion of it to you if you would like to hear it. Or I could read some other book.

Prabhupāda: You can read the book.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Would you like to hear some of it?

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Keep it there. (break) . . . is a Bengali common word. It is said, ksobrai kanana. Ksobra, that is like a coconut. Coconut pulp is within, and it is covered with a hard . . . what is called?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Shell.

Prabhupāda: . . . shell, and again covered with fiber.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Husk.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So these people are interested with the fiber, not with the pulp. So all these scholars of the modern education, they are ksobrai kanana.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That fiber is the least valuable part.

Prabhupāda: But they are simply studying.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He gives a summary of this chapter. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . objectionable.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Objectionable? I haven't read it yet.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He advertised himself, he is only . . . (indistinct)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Surabhi.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. And neither he has mentioned his guru's name nor others' name, as if he is doing everything. His ambition is only . . . yes. Not a single place, any other svāmījī or svāmī, as if he is . . . it is his idea, and he will supply money and everything, like that. And without any sanction of a committee he has come to pay whimsically. So everything will be done like that. There are so many mistakes. You read it. Here. Similarly, everything is being done, it is Surabhi Mahārāja. Have you read already?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: He does not like to interfere with his guru. He is doing everything.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Maybe Girirāja should be called up. When they come, maybe we can read this article out loud. Says here, "Asked whether his city . . ."

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Asked whether his city . . ."

Prabhupāda: "His city"?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: What is that? "Asked . . ."?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It says: "Asked whether his city would not meet the same fate as Auroville . . ." It's not his city.

Prabhupāda: He can say that he has taken sannyāsa for his popularization? (Surabhīr Abhipālayantam enters, offers obeisances) Did you publish this article with others' consultation or by whimsical joke?

Surabhīr Abhipālayantam: It could be . . .

Prabhupāda: This article . . .

Surabhīr Abhipālayantam: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Did you publish it by consulting your other colleagues, or whimsically you have published?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda's asking whether this article was published in consultation with other . . . with your Godbrothers, or how it came about that you got this article published.

Surabhīr Abhipālayantam: Well, it was in . . . I think he went to different newspapers, just like the Indian Express and this one, and they wanted to speak with him.

Prabhupāda: So such an important article, there are so many discrepancies, and you have published without consulting others?

Surabhīr Abhipālayantam: I haven't seen it.

Prabhupāda: And your name is simply, "Swami . . ." There is no other name behind this plan? As if you are doing everything. You are maybe architect, but is that your plan?

Surabhīr Abhipālayantam: Well, we had that . . . we had the interview in the . . . and I very clearly mentioned all these things.

Prabhupāda: There is no mention of any other's name, even your guru's name. You are everything there. This is very bad. This is not at all my request. It is objectionable, very much objectionable. You have done a very wrong thing. Why did you not consult others before publishing?

Surabhīr Abhipālayantam: Well, we went with four devotees there, and I mentioned all these things, but I don't know why he didn't . . .

Prabhupāda: Where? There's no mention; as if you are doing everything.

Surabhīr Abhipālayantam: The first thing he . . .

Prabhupāda: This article shows that you are doing everything, and they are asking, "Your city"? They have asked. Is that your city?

Surabhīr Abhipālayantam: But they have concocted that, because this was not how the interview was . . .

Prabhupāda: Concocted, no. It is published. You have published a very great objectionable article without consulting others. Now you should not do anything without consulting others. I cannot allow this.

Surabhīr Abhipālayantam: My intention was only to . . .

Prabhupāda: No intention. Simply your name, you are everything, that's all. This is not way. You do not mention even your guru's name.

Surabhīr Abhipālayantam: We gave him a paper with all the things they had to put in there, very particular . . .

Prabhupāda: And they have deleted your guru's name and others' name, and they have intentionally said: "Your city," as if you are doing everything, you are getting money. How is this? You again protest that, "I gave you. Why you have published this? Again you have . . ." Give them protest.

Surabhīr Abhipālayantam: Yes, I will, Śrīla Prabhupāda. I will immediately write them. Because I . . .

Prabhupāda: And if you have given such article to others, immediately stop it.

Surabhīr Abhipālayantam: No, we don't have in others. We just had an interview with them, and they put it all like this.

Prabhupāda: How they can do?

Surabhīr Abhipālayantam: I don't know.

Prabhupāda: Where is that original article?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Do you have a copy of the original article that you gave?

Surabhīr Abhipālayantam: Yes. I have . . .

Prabhupāda: Is there name, others' name, in your original article? Where is that original article?

Surabhīr Abhipālayantam: Well, we have given them a booklet which . . .

Prabhupāda: Again "booklet." You are publishing article. What is the use of booklet? Why they will take care of a booklet? Take articles and . . . they have given, asked you, "Your city." Where is that article?

Surabhīr Abhipālayantam: I can't explain it.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Asked whether his city would not meet the same fate as Auroville . . ."

Prabhupāda: "His city." Your city.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ". . . Swami said . . ."

Surabhīr Abhipālayantam: Yeah, I never said this to him. We didn't even talk about this.

Prabhupāda: So how is that, without your saying, they are publishing?

Surabhīr Abhipālayantam: He did it in the same way as Indian Express . . .

Prabhupāda: Your photograph is there. That is also they have done? Or you have given your photograph?

Surabhīr Abhipālayantam: They took a picture. I have only given them this picture and this picture.

Prabhupāda: Not a single man's name is there. "The Swami," your photograph . . . nothing.

Surabhīr Abhipālayantam: We will go immediately. I will go today, immediately.

Prabhupāda: But what is published, that is already damage.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes they will retract it.

Prabhupāda: Therefore they asked you, "Your city," "His city," "will build a center, fantastic . . ."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, no one's going to give it any credence.

Prabhupāda: It is most objectionable article. So you are doing things very, full independently. This is not very good. The impression will be that "Surabhi Swami has come to construct this city, his city," like that, as if everything doing, you are the all-and-all. That's . . . no other. And "The temple will be Kṛṣṇa." Just show him, "The temple of Kṛṣṇa." You do not know what is the temple will be? Clearly mentioned. They have also manufactured? They have manufactured? What is this?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "The center of the planetarium will be the temple of Kṛṣṇa."

Prabhupāda: Just see. It is their manufacture?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "The planetarium and temple alone will be estimated to cost rupees seventy crores."

Prabhupāda: That is another thing. But it is not going to be Kṛṣṇa's temple.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, that's the point.

Prabhupāda: And they have manufactured this?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It says here, "The whole city is expected to . . . the temple . . . the planetarium will be ready in three years." But how is that possible to be built . . .? And that, "The whole city will be done in ten years." Says here, "A Vedic city with fifty thousand brāhmaṇas, kṣatriyas, vaiśyas and śūdras living around a Kṛṣṇa temple in four concentric . . ."

Prabhupāda: So they have criticized that, "Your city, there will be forty . . ." "Aurobindo . . ." You have seen it?

Surabhīr Abhipālayantam: No.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Asked whether his city would not meet the same fate as Auroville . . ."

Prabhupāda: Then.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "It was started nine years ago near Pondicherry with the same target of fifty thousand but has still a population of only four hundred, mostly foreigners." In other words, this is . . . the idea is that just as Auroville is a farce, any one of us, we're also farcical.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is . . . it is very good farce. That is the . . . yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that's the implication.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's a farce. There's no . . . from what I can see here, there's no mention in the whole thing . . . it never mentions "International Society for Krishna Consciousness." It never mentions "Founder-Ācārya His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami." It doesn't even mention . . .

Prabhupāda: No.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ". . . Hare Krishna movement." In one place it says: "Hare Krishna followers," but it never says: "The Hare Krishna movement." No one knows what ISKCON is. In India they don't know.

Prabhupāda: And your name is mentioned in every line, your photograph, as if you are doing everything.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's another article in here about the Bhaktivedanta Institute. Have you seen it?

Prabhupāda: No.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It appears just below this article. "ISKCON Branch in City from October, by a staff reporter. A branch of the Bhaktivedanta Institute, the center for advanced learning and research of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, ISKCON, based in Washington, D.C. is scheduled to be opened in October at Hare Krishna Land in Juhu. This was stated by Dr. Thoudam Dāmodara Singh in Bombay on Tuesday. Dr. Singh, who is in charge of the arrangements for the opening, told a press conference that the Institute presents in a modern format the higher sciences of the ancient Vedāntic literatures. In Bombay, Dr. Singh said, the Institute will publish scientific articles, monographs and the journal 'Sa-vijñānam, Scientific Knowledge,' regularly." That's the whole article. Again Your Divine Grace's name is not mentioned. Of course, it says "Bhaktivedanta Institute," but still, it's not . . . yeah, it was a very good opportunity that we could present our program, but somehow it . . . (indistinct) . . . where did they get these figures of "three years" and "ten years"? I mean, how could they have just concocted "three years" and "ten years" unless you told them?

Surabhīr Abhipālayantam: I . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But how did they get these figures? How does someone manufacture that we will spend seventy crores in three years? (pause) It seems like they have tricked you. You must have made a statement, and then they . . . (indistinct)

Surabhīr Abhipālayantam: They fabricated. That's the whole thing.

Prabhupāda: How they can fabricate in their own way? From . . . (pause) Rather, they have criticized that, "This fantastic thing, it is going to be like Aurobindo's city, list of fifty thousand, 404 acres." They are not taking it very seriously. Otherwise why he has remarked? Indirectly he has said: "This man is speaking like lunatic." They are not taking very seriously. That very remark shows that, "It is going to be meet the same fate." So many fantastic ideas.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Did you see that article yesterday, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Did you see that article yesterday?

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's an article in the Times of India yesterday about foreign travel as a center to . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: There Hare Krishna movement is nice.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, it says that, "The Hare Krishna movement is responsible for promoting knowledge of India and India's culture abroad."

Prabhupāda: It will be . . . (indistinct) . . . as fantastic. Therefore they, "It is going to meet the same fate." (pause) You do not know what is the temple will be? You do not know?

Surabhīr Abhipālayantam: Hmm?

Prabhupāda: That temple, what will be the Deity, you do not know?

Surabhīr Abhipālayantam: I mentioned . . . we gave them the paper with all the information on it.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Surabhīr Abhipālayantam: They had been given a paper with all the names of the Deities on it.

Prabhupāda: What is that Deity?

Surabhīr Abhipālayantam: Pañca-tattva, Lord Caitanya.

Prabhupāda: Yes. These are . . . "Kṛṣṇa."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Not Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Kṛṣṇa not the central Deity.

Prabhupāda: Everything is spoiled. They have given so much coverage, and everything has been farce. Because, don't mind, you wanted to become famous—that is the intention—therefore it has become a farce. The inner intention was that you want to be famous, frankly speaking. Therefore it has become farce. Everything ludicrous, farce. And "In three years they will build this temple and, and . . ." You have read that article?

Girirāja: No.

Prabhupāda: Now immediately a vote should be formed. You cannot do independently. That will not be allowed. Anything. In Bengali there is a word, pañce mili kare kārya, hari jiti nāhi laj: "If you do something, combined together five men, then whether you are defeated or you are victorious, there is nothing to be shameful." Hari jiti nāhi laj. So you are doing everything independent. You do not like to interfere with your business. You become angry. That should be stopped. You cannot be allowed. You'll be . . . (indistinct) . . . it has no meaning. (pause) (someone enters and offers obeisance) What is that?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is a . . . I don't know if . . . you gave this to the press? This was given to the press. "Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare. ISKCON Candrodaya City at Śrīdhāma Māyāpur."

Prabhupāda: What is this? Not from our letter given?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It says: "The birthplace of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu in the district Nadia, prepared under the direction of His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda and by his disciples, His Holiness Surabhīr Abhipālayantam Swami, ISKCON Māyāpur Project architect and director of construction; His Holiness Jayapatākā Swami, ISKCON Māyāpur project president and Governing Body Commissioner; Śrī Patita Pāvana dāsa Brahmacārī, Bhakti Śāstrī, ISKCON Māyāpur; and the editors of Back to Godhead magazine, ISKCON Press, Los Angeles, California."

Prabhupāda: Perfect article.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Patita Pāvana . . ." And it says also, ". . . the editors of Back to Godhead magazine, ISKCON Press, Los Angeles, California."

Surabhīr Abhipālayantam: . . . (indistinct)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: These are four articles. "Part One: A Description of the Holiness of Śrīdhāma Māyāpur."

Surabhīr Abhipālayantam: It was taken from Back to Godhead.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Taken from Back to Godhead. This is an article from Back to Godhead. Who wrote it? Nitāi?

Surabhīr Abhipālayantam: Nitāi did.

Prabhupāda: Who wrote?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Nitāi. This is an article previously published in Back to Godhead, written by Nitāi a couple years ago. "Part Two: A General Description of ISKCON's Spiritual City in Māyāpur. A Short History of ISKCON Māyāpur." It gives a description of their history. "When the first American devotees of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, ISKCON, heard in 1970 from the Society's Founder-Ācārya, His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda . . ."

Prabhupāda: Everywhere there is founder-ācārya's name, but not a single line . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right.

Prabhupāda: So they have purposefully avoided, and given your name?

Surabhīr Abhipālayantam: I all the time insisted on this, that it has to be written down . . .

Prabhupāda: Your photograph and your name and nothing else.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I mean, one point is this—when you hold a press conference, you don't give them a fifty-page booklet and expect that they're going to read any of it. They're not going to read any of it. When you hold a press conference you give one sheet, and on that sheet everything is there in order of importance. Nobody ever gives this in a press conference. This is a book.

Prabhupāda: No, no . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They don't have the time to read. I mean, that's why they won't publish any of this. This is good, but it . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no. Where it is mentioned that Surabhi Swami was . . .? His name? How they have picked up your name and your photograph as everything?

Surabhīr Abhipālayantam: Well, I usually have to go these places . . . (indistinct) . . . and the man, he wanted to see me the night before, so I went to Times of India, and I just . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Why would he want to see you?

Surabhīr Abhipālayantam: I don't know. So I came on invitation, and then I just sat down to explain all the things that were written in the book.

Prabhupāda: I don't think there is any name mentioned, presented, in these articles.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In these?

Prabhupāda: No.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No.

Prabhupāda: So how you came in front?

Surabhīr Abhipālayantam: Well, Patita, he was explaining about the project we were doing in Bombay. He was setting it up and working on it.

Prabhupāda: But his name is not there. Your name is there. Your photograph.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Even on the project in Bombay your name is given there, but Prabhupāda's name is not given there. Now, why should your name become prominent in regard to the Bombay project? Now, you said he was describing what we were doing in Bombay, so therefore he wanted to meet you. So why should he want to . . .? If anybody describes about this Bombay project, they should want to meet Prabhupāda. (pause) There's nothing objectionable in this report, but they're not going to use this report.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's nothing objectionable in here, but it should be understood . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no, that is not . . . it is written, "The Founder-Ācārya," written clearly.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, clearly.

Prabhupāda: But how is that, they have avoided everything else? "Surabhi Swami is doing. It is his city." They're asking, "his city." And where is such incidence that any project, without mentioning the project makers, the architect's name. Where is that incidence, that "Here is the architect, architect, architect"? Nobody finds.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You look at any project in Bombay that's coming up, or anywhere in India. They'll always mention who is going to use the building or who is . . . who paid for it. Hardly ever . . . if anything, the architect's name is mentioned in one line, "designed by so and so." But the architect never holds the press conference. That's another . . . I mean, I never heard of an architect holding a press conference. Neither I have ever heard the architect doing so many of the other things which the architect is doing. That, I think, is the essential thing. Whenever Bhavānanda Mahārāja . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Anyway, you form immediately joint committee. You cannot do independently. That is not possible. Whatever is done is done. Now, henceforward, you should be guarded. (to Patita-pāvana) You, you published that article?

Patita-pāvana: What is that?

Prabhupāda: The Times of India?

Patita-pāvana: Pardon me, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: You published that article?

Patita-pāvana: The types?

Prabhupāda: Times of India.

Patita-pāvana: This?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Patita-pāvana: Well, we went down there together and were interviewed by the . . .

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Patita-pāvana: We went down together. We were interviewed by the reporter there.

Prabhupāda: So what kind of interview, that Saurabha is everything? Architect? Architect is everything?

Patita-pāvana: This is a great mistake. Surabhi Mahārāja did not want that. He specifically said, and we also told him, "You must put this: 'Founder-Ācārya His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda.' " He said it definitely, I said it, and I wrote it down. And I wrote it down, I think, two places for him. And then it was also written down on our release, "disciples of His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda."

Prabhupāda: So how is that, nobody's name is there, only Saurabha's? And they have mentioned, "His city."

Patita-pāvana: Oh, no. That is not good.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They mentioned that, "Will his city be like Auroville?"

Patita-pāvana: I see.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And the answer's given, "No, it won't."

Patita-pāvana: The answer's good, but the question's not.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, the answer's not good either, 'cause it's not his city. If you answer that question at all, it means that you accept that it's your city.

Patita-pāvana: Yeah, but they never asked him like that. This is simply this man's journalism.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But Prabhupāda's point is that everything has been printed. Whether they asked you or didn't ask you, now it's there in print and it can't be retracted.

Patita-pāvana: We could also have them write some article. I know the chief reporter there.

Prabhupāda: Therefore I say you have done independently, whimsically. This is . . . this is to be stopped. You are acting too independent.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I'd just like a point of clarification, 'cause I don't understand. What exactly is your engagement? I see that you're traveling all over India. What exactly are you going . . .? Has Prabhupāda told you to travel like this continuously, all over . . .?

Patita-pāvana: No, he told me to go South India and find some paṇḍitas.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And now you're planning to go to Delhi.

Patita-pāvana: No, no. Surabhi Mahārāja has asked me to do some press releases for the newspapers.

Prabhupāda: So Surabhi Mahārāja has asked. So you are conducted by Surabhi Mahārāja?

Patita-pāvana: Yes, Prabhupāda. At least I'm trying. If I have acted unkindly, I . . .

Prabhupāda: And this is the result. This is the result, this disastrous article. You do independently when you like under the direction of Surabhi Mahārāja and create disaster.

Patita-pāvana: Well, he asked me to go down there. (break) (end)