771110 - Conversation B - Vrndavana
Bhavānanda: We should do, begin the parikramā (circumambulation) in Vṛndāvana.
Bhavānanda: Because quite honestly, Śrīla Prabhupāda, I think most of us are very worried. If you go off down the road and send us all back to our different assignments, we would not be able to serve with our full attention, knowing that our beloved father and spiritual guide was in such weak condition. So if we begin in Vṛndāvana, we're all here now; we can see, so that we know what arrangements to make for the future when you want to leave.
Prabhupāda: Hmm. You make me flat. (pause)
Bhakti-caru: (indistinct) . . . Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Hmm. (break)
Jayapatākā: We heard that Your Divine Grace had a dream that a kavirāja of the Rāmānuja-sampradāya would treat you and bring you back to strength, and this kavirāja says that in a very short time, following the treatment, you would regain your strength. Although he hasn't got all of the medicines yet, but within a day or two they'll all be prepared, and he says within fifteen days you should be quite improved in strength. So far, he seems to have been quite sincere.
Prabhupāda: No, no, he's sincere. I'll drink milk. Whatever strength is obtainable, there will be.
Jayapatākā: Like to follow the same treatment, only while traveling.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (whispers) It's not part of the treatment.
Haṁsadūta: So we should meet and make a program for going around Vṛndāvana.
Haṁsadūta: You want to begin tomorrow morning?
Devotee (1): If Prabhupāda travels in a van it would be very bumpy. He should have a big bus.
Haṁsadūta: Let's discuss it.
Devotee (1): A big bus.
Prabhupāda: No, no, bus will not be good. Bullock cart.
Bhavānanda: Bullock cart.
Jayapatākā: That is very bumpy.
Bhavānanda: Your Guru Mahārāja used to have bullock cart travel from Hoolaghat up to the Caitanya Maṭha. You told me you put a nice mattress down in the back and a cover, and you lay down there. You even told me once to go to Calcutta that way. You lay down at night; you go little bit, little bit; and in the morning, when you wake up, you're in Calcutta.
Prabhupāda: Hmm. Bullock, you get the cow dung.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Cook with it.
Jayapatākā: In this part of India it's very cold now for Your Divine Grace.
Prabhupāda: Underneath the tree it is not cold.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You sound like you are very determined to go, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Hmm. Daytime we expose in the sunshine, and camp underneath a tree at night. That has to be arranged.
Bhakti-caru: Śrīla Prabhupāda ektu dudh debo ekhon. (Should we give you little milk now Śrīla Prabhupāda?)
Prabhupāda: Hmm. Dao. Ektu gorom thakbe. (Okay, you can give. Make it little hot.)
Bhakti-caru: Han Śrīla Prabhupāda . . . ektu ha korun. Gorom thik ache? (Okay Śrīla Prabhupāda . . . please open your mouth a little bit. Is it warm enough?)
Prabhupāda: Besi misti hoyeche. (Sweetness is more.)
Prabhupāda: (Drinking milk) Hmm.
Bhakti-caru: Ektu ha korun Śrīla Prabhupāda. (Please open your mouth a little Śrīla Prabhupāda.)
Prabhupāda: (drinking milk) Byas aar na. (That's enough, stop.)
Bhakti-caru: Śrīla Prabhupāda aar ektu nin. (Śrīla Prabhupāda please take a little more.)
Prabhupāda: Abar debe ekhon. (Oh you will give more.) (drinking) Hmm.
Bhakti-caru: Ektu jol Śrīla Prabhupāda. Jol o khaben na? (Please take a little water Śrīla Prabhupāda. You won't even take water?)
Prabhupāda: Na. (No.)
Bhakti-caru: Achha. (Okay.)
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Should the devotees take prasādam now?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's about 1:30 now.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: After taking prasādam we can meet and chalk out a program for parikramā and tīrtha-yātrā. Is that all right? Okay.
Prabhupāda: I thought you have taken.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, we were all surrounding you, listening very intently to all of your instructions.
Jagadīśa: Prasādam has been saved for the devotees that are here. I arranged it.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh.
Haṁsadūta: So what time shall we meet?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Three? Three o'clock we'll meet. So we'll have our meeting, Śrīla Prabhupāda, with Lokanātha also present.
Jagadīśa: Satsvarūpa also.
Prabhupāda: Four o'clock.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hmm? Yes. And then we'll begin tomorrow.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is that soon enough?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Hmm.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Should we depart for taking prasādam now, Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay.
Prabhupāda: Who is attending?
Prabhupāda: Upendra is very good attendant. Hmm. (break)
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We were discussing how to make this parikramā possible, and we've concluded that the best thing was, as we had said earlier, to parikramā around Vṛndāvana, to begin with. And for that purpose we sent Lokanātha Mahārāja and Pañca-draviḍa Mahārāja and Trivikrama Mahārāja to get a bullock cart ready.
Prabhupāda: Hired or purchased?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, for now just hired, not purchased. Later on we can make a more permanent arrangement, and it can be fixed up as nicely as possible. At the same time while we were meeting, the kavirāj jī was, he also was present. So we inquired from him what he thought about this program, from a medical point of view of course. Spiritually he is in complete agreement. So from a medical point of view, he said that you would not at all be able to withstand this kind of a trip. He said that you . . . in a bullock cart, moving around, bumping on the road, you might not be able to live more than a couple of hours. He's here now. He wanted to speak to you.
Kavirāja: Han bolo Mahārāja kya baat hai? Kya vichaar hai? (Yes Mahārāja please tell, what’s the matter? What are your views?)
Prabhupāda: Vichaar hai . . . jo ghar me to sote sote bilkul sab energy nast ho gaya. Isliye parikramā jayenge. (My View is . . . being at home, always laying down and sleeping, so all the energy got wasted. That is why we will go for parikramā.)
Kavirāja: Acha. Ye vichaar hai? (Okay. So those are your views?)
Prabhupāda: Hmm. (Yes.)
Kavirāja: To parikramā to apko ek nahi do dila denge thoda sarir me takat ane dijiye. Main bhi sath chalunga kya baat hai. Abhi aap is halat me . . . us roj dekhiye parikramā me gaye aap ko chakkar aa gaya. Kal apko thodi shikayat hogayi to . . . abhi thoda strength aane dijiye, thode roz aur theyeriye uske baad me aap yahan ki parikramā shuru kar denge, bahar ki parikramā apki shuru kara denge, thoda bal ana chahiye. Bal nahi ane se heart par sabse jyada asar padta hai, jo ek hi chiz apki majboot hai, jiske jariye hum logon me atma bal hai ki ve sab log apki bimari mita denge, apki tabiet bhi thik hojayegi. Is halat me apka jana acha nahi hoga. Ye meri vyaktigat raya hai. (Not one, we will make you do two parikramās, let your body gain some strength first. I will also come along with you. Now in this condition . . . see that day on parikramā you got dizzy. If something happens tomorrow . . . let some strength come, wait for some more days and then start the parikramā from here. Later we will start your parikramā outside as well, but first some strength should come. If strength is not there, the heart will come under excessive pressure. Your heart is the only strongest thing now, and because of it we get our self confidence that we will be able to cure the disease and your health will be alright. Going out in this condition will not be good. That’s my personal opinion.)
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Lokanātha has already gone, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Haṁsadūta: He has gone to Mathurā for renting.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He has gone out for renting the bullock cart.
Prabhupāda: Oh. Fir to thik hai. (Then it's alright.)
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Lokanātha says that the bullock cart could probably go around Vṛndāvana in about five to six hours, parikramming Vṛndāvana town.
Prabhupāda: Make an experiment. Then we shall decide.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda said, "Make an experiment. Then we shall decide."
Jayapatākā: What is that experiment?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jayapatākā's asking what that experiment is, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Vṛndāvana parikramā.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda said: "Vṛndāvana parikramā."
Haṁsadūta: Prabhupāda, does it mean with Your Divine Grace, or we should go alone first and see?
Haṁsadūta: Does it mean that Your Divine Grace will come on the experiment, or we should go without Your Divine Grace and experiment?
Jayapatākā: See if the road is very rough, if the road is passable by bullock cart the whole way.
Prabhupāda: Bullock cart is not smooth.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bullock cart is not smooth. How would you propose that we go, Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: Come, let us take the risk.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: "Come, let us take the risk."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Go anyway. Let us take the risk.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: As your disciples, Śrīla Prabhupāda, we are all neophytes. We don't know what is right and what is wrong. But at the same time we feel that we're very hopeful that you'll get strength slowly and slowly. And this morning you were telling us that you get a little strength. So we are hoping every day that, "Prabhupāda will gain even stronger and be with us for many more years." So we are taking advice from kavirāj jī that you take milk more and more, day by day, so that Prabhupāda will get stronger. Like kavirāja is suggesting that when Your Divine Grace gets stronger, he'll go with you in the parikramā; he will accompany you.
Prabhupāda: So let us make experiment in Vṛndāvana.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Shall we do that immediately?
Bhakti-caru: Unhone sthir kiya hai wo bailgadi me vrindavan parikramā karenge pehle. Kar ke dekhte hain kaise hota hai. (He has decided that he will do the parikramā in a bullock cart first. He will do it and see how it goes.)
Kavirāja: Bilkul nahi karna chahiye. (It should not be done at all.)
Bhakti-caru: Shastrijī's saying that he shouldn't do it under any circumstances.
Bhavānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, if we follow the kavirāja's instructions and advice, then he feels that within fifteen days, twenty days, you will have strength. To take an unnecessary risk at this time, we have to practically appraise what will be the loss. You have said: "If I live or die on this parikramā, it will be glorious," but the loss will be that Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam will not be finished, so many works will be unfinished. If it's just a matter of being a little patient and waiting fifteen more days—is only two weeks—then when you have strength, then we can all go on the parikramā, and you'll be able to hopefully gain more strength and finish up all of these works. But I think that the risk, in terms of the future of the whole world, is too great.
Prabhupāda: Vṛndāvana parikramā is not risk.
Bhakti-caru: (Whispering to kavirāja) Prabhupāda Ji kehte hai ki Vrindavan parikrama me risk nahi hai. (Prabhupāda is saying that there is no risk in Vṛndāvana parikramā.)
Kavirāja: Vṛndāvana me jhacke lagenge Mahārāja. Hum chahte hain vishwa parikramā karana, abhi ap is vichar ko mere hisab se sthagit kar dijiye. Apki machine ko dekhte hue me apko mane anumati nahi deta hun ki ap jayenge. Hamari atma nahi manti. Is sthiti me abhi jaldi jaldi me apko mayapur le chalun fir ap vishwa parikrama jane ke layak ho jaye, ye kamana karte hue ye abhi jo Vṛndāvana ki parikramā ka vichar ap chod dijiye. Ye meri raya hai fir ap samjhiye dekhiye. (You will get jolt in the roads of Vṛndāvana, Mahārāja. We want you to do world parikramā, that’s why you should postpone this thought now. Seeing your body I can’t give you permission to go. My soul doesn’t agree. In this condition, I will take you to Māyāpur very soon and then when you become fit to do world parikramā, we are pinning our hope on this, therefore for now please drop this idea of Vṛndāvana parikramā. This is my opinion, now it’s your decision.)
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, when you went on this parikramā the other day around the temple, you became dizzy just going around the temple four times. That's when you were even able to sit up in bed a lot more. How is it going to be possible to go for four, five or six hours, when you couldn't . . .
Prabhupāda: Not four, five, six . . .
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's how long it takes to go around Vṛndāvana by bullock cart. It takes three hours walking at a good pace, and it takes at least five or six hours, Lokanātha says, by bullock cart. How . . .? We couldn't even go a half hour just around this temple.
Prabhupāda: No, I traveled. It takes two hours in the morning.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Walking.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: By walking.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But not by bullock cart. That's when a man walks very quickly, you can do it in two hours, but by bullock cart it will take five hours. We have . . . you had difficulty even doing a half-hour parikramā around this temple. You became very faint. Whether you think that you can go five hours in a row?
Prabhupāda: From Mādhava Mahārāja's Maṭha, bring Kṛṣṇa dāsa Bābājī.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We should bring Kṛṣṇa dāsa Bābājī here? Okay.
Prabhupāda: And Indu.
Bhakti-caru: Indu-mati Prabhu?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, Indu-mati.
Prabhupāda: Then talk.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma, you know Mādhava Mahārāja's mandira?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You know Kṛṣṇa dāsa Bābājī, Prabhupāda's Godbrother?
Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma: I don't know but I can . . .
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (to another devotee) You know? So Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma will go with you. Prabhupāda wants to see Indu-mati and Kṛṣṇa dāsa Bābājī. You bring them both. You go in one of the cars.
Bhavānanda: Are you sure you know which Kṛṣṇa dāsa Bābājī?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, in Mādhava Mahārāja's Maṭha. Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma—not the Kṛṣṇa dāsa Bābājī from Rādhā-kuṇḍa.
Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma: No no.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Mādhava Mahārāja's.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: As your humble disciples, Śrīla Prabhupāda, we are ready to take up any instruction that you've kindly given us, but at the same time, you have advised us many times that we shouldn't take unnecessary risk. Just like few days ago you were telling a Bengali saying, saying that when you are doubtful, don't do it. You instructed us.
Prabhupāda: That is material. (laughter)
Jagadīśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, can you tell us why you want to go on the parikramā?
Bhakti-caru: Śrīla Prabhupāda ekhon ektu dudh di apnake? (Can we give you some milk now Śrīla Prabhupāda?) (break)
Prabhupāda: . . . good paddy.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This seems like suicide, Śrīla Prabhupāda, this program. It seems to some of us like it's suicidal.
Prabhupāda: And this is also suicidal.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hmm. Prabhupāda said: "And this is also suicide." Now you have to choose which suicide.
Prabhupāda: Rāvaṇa will kill and Rāma will kill. Better to be killed by Rāma. Eh? That Mārīci—if he does not go to mislead Sītā, he'll be killed by Rāvaṇa; and if he goes, he will be killed by Rāma, then it is better.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Who is this Prabhupāda's talking about?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? I mean, just judging the symptoms, which is all that we can do, certain symptoms have certainly picked up. For instance, you're passing more urine, stool is coming naturally, and you're able to drink milk without getting any cough. These things were never there before.
Prabhupāda: Hmm. That will continue.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So if the treatment is continuing, if the treatment is working, why not continue it under the guidance of this kavirāja for some time? His point is this. This is what I've seen, Śrīla Prabhupāda, being your secretary all these months, that whenever you took milk you would get cough. For the first time I see there's no cough coming. Another problem: you couldn't pass urine. Now there's double the amount of urine. Another thing: you couldn't pass stool. Now it comes normally. At least it comes without any artificial means. So the one thing that has not yet come is strength, and kavirāja is suggesting what you yourself had always said: "If I can drink milk, I will get stronger." So if the kavirāja's treatment . . . to my feeling it has worked. At least symptoms . . . the symptoms have been better under his treatment than any other doctor so far.
Prabhupāda: That will work.
Bhavānanda: It will work.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Also Śrīla Prabhupāda's resting better than before.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But the idea is that . . . according to him . . . I mean, obviously we're all conditioned, and . . . I mean, he's not claiming not to be a conditioned soul either, but according to him, going on this bullock cart is a suicide. He said within an hour or two hours, the bouncing and, you know, jumbling of the bullock cart will cause a heart attack. Just like you were having heart . . . a little heart spasm the other day, just laying in bed two days ago. He says this going in a bullock cart, up and down, within one, two hours it can cause heart attack. So as his treatment has been better at least than any other doctor, and certain symptoms have improved, why are we giving up his advice? If you say his advice is wrong, then there's no comment; but all along, his advice seems to have been more accurate than any others' doctors that we've had. I mean, we who are closely around you, Śrīla Prabhupāda—your servants, secretary—our opinion of him is far superior than our opinion of any of these others. I see that he's able to take care of one symptom after another somewhat successfully. He's able to deal with these problems. He can deal with the problem of not enough urine . . .
Prabhupāda: That I know.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He feels quite confident that you can live for six, seven more years, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: We also feel very confident.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Better that you live for six or seven years productively than that you go on this parikramā and die within two hours gloriously. Why not live for six or seven years and then go on parikramā and die? If the parikramā can always be done, why not put it off for six or seven more years of preaching?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: You've already been glorious, Śrīla Prabhupāda, all over the world. Whether you're here or outside doesn't really matter. You're already glorious.
Jayapatākā: By your presence countless souls will attain devotional service. That's more glorious.
Prabhupāda: But I think I shall be cured.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda says he thinks he will be cured by the parikramā.
Bhakti-caru: Prabhupāda ji ne bolte hain, unhone sochte hain ki parikramā se unhe cure hojayega, thik ho jayega. (Prabhupāda is saying, he thinks he will get cured by doing this parikramā.)
Kavirāja: Umm? (What?)
Bhakti-caru: Ye parikrama karne se . . . (By performing this parikrama . . .)
Kavirāja: Sab sadak tuti hui hai, jerking lagega, jerking heart sehan nahi karega bilkul ek dam. Piche thik hone ke bad me vishwa ki parikramā kar lenge kya hai usme. Ab baithe baithe yahan sote sote hi parikramā kar lenge, ye vichar tyag dena chahiye. Wo itne gadhe hain ki hum logon ke heart me dhakka lagta hai gadi padti hain jahan. Aur bailgadi ke andar, wo to sehen bhi nahi kar sakte, 15 min nahi chal sakte hain. (The roads are broken, the heart will not be able to tolerate the jerking at all. Once you recover, we will go for world parikramā, what’s there in that. But now do the parikrama just by sitting and laying down here. The thought of going for this parikrama should be abandoned. There are so many holes and pits in the road that we ourselves feel a jerk in our hearts when the vehicle goes through those pit holes. And inside the bullock cart, he can’t withstand it, he can’t even tolerate it for 15 mins.)
Haṁsadūta: Under the circumstances we have to consider whether Prabhupāda's opinion is more or less than the kavirāja's, is what it comes down to.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We can't continue . . . consider. Śrīla Prabhupāda has to.
Haṁsadūta: If Prabhupāda says that by going on parikramā he feels he'll be cured, then how can we continue to place arguments against him?
Kavirāja: Ek kaam kar sakte hain, Kuvera se puṣpaka vimaan manga lijiye aap. Aur us vimaan se Vṛndāvana ki parikramā kar lijiye. Tab to koi . . . Kuvera se puṣpaka vimān manga lijiye. Ap chintan karenge to aa jayega wo. (One thing can be done, just bring the puṣpaka vimān (the flower airplane) from Kuvera. And with that vimān do the Vṛndāvana parikramā. Then there will be no . . . get that puṣpaka vimān. If you meditate on it then it will come.)
Kavirāja: Han Kuvera ke pas me hi to hai puṣpaka vimān. Ramchandra ji ko diya tha unhone, Ravana le gaya tha. Usme jerking nahi lagenge. Ye sadken aisi ho rahi hain swamiji ki sadharan admi ki sthiti kharab hojati hai. (Yes Kuvera only has the puṣpaka vimān. He gave it to Lord Ramchandra, and then Ravana took it. There won’t be any jerking in that. The road condition is so bad Swamiji, that even the condition of normal people becomes intolerable.)
Jagadīśa: What did the kavirāja say?
Bhakti-caru: Shastrijī is telling Prabhupāda to ask the Kuvera's puṣpaka-ratha—that is airplane of Kuvera—and do the parikramā in that.
Adri-dhāraṇa: Then there won't be any bumping that way.
Bhakti-caru: And he's saying that if Prabhupāda asks for that, he will sure get it. (devotees chuckle)
Kavirāja: Sarīramādyaṃ khalu dharmasādhanam. (This body is surely the foremost instrument of performing religious deeds.) Aur ap to dharma ke . . . apko to koi avashyakta hi nahi hai. Ap to us jagah se pare hain. Swayam prakashman hain man lo kya isme ye bhagwan ki dharamshala hai, panch bhautik sharir hai. Ye abhi sehen karne layak nahi hai iskiye hum log mana karte hain. Nahi to aise kaam ke liye koi bhi mana nahi kar sakta, karne wale ko paap lagta hai. Saririk sthiti dekhte hue hamara jee nahi manta hai ki hum apko anumati den. (You know dharma . . . there is no need for you. You are beyond those principles. You are self luminous, imagine it to be Lord’s dwelling and the body is made of five physical elements. This body is not capable now to tolerate that’s why all of us are refusing. Or else, nobody should prevent anyone from performing such activity, one who prevents becomes a sinner. Seeing the situation of your body, my heart is not allowing me to give you permission.)
(indistinct background comments by devotees)
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Ultimately what Prabhupāda decides, we will do.
Haṁsadūta: Well, it just . . .
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, but it goes on. As Prabhupāda goes on, his disciples also go on.
Kavirāja: Unko jyada bulaiye mat, jitni taqat ekathi karte hain . . . (Don’t make him talk too much . . . the more energy he can accumulate . . .)
Bhakti-caru: Shastrijī's saying, Mahārāja . . . Shastrijī's saying that Prabhupāda shouldn't talk too much. It's bad for his heart.
Kavirāja: Jo energy hum log ekathhi karte hain wo nikal jayegi sab. (All the energy which we are trying to accumulate, that will be exhausted.)
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So, Śrīla Prabhupāda, we can have kīrtana until Kṛṣṇa dāsa comes. Okay. (indistinct background comments by devotees) (kīrtana) (break) (end)