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771101 - Conversation C - Vrndavana

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

771101R3-VRNDAVAN - November 01, 1977 - 46:45 Minutes

(Śrīla Prabhupāda Vigil)

Brahmānanda: If you're not feeling well today, it can be postponed to another day.

Prabhupāda: I am not feeling . . . (pause) I did not eat even today.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda says he did not eat today, Bhakti-caru.

Bhakti-caru: You were sleeping, Śrīla Prabhupāda, in the afternoon. That's why I didn't wake you up.

Prabhupāda: No. There was no food at all.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Didn't Prabhupāda get milk and barley this morning?

Bhakti-caru: Yeah.

Bhavānanda: Also you said he took twelve spoons of khicuṛi and loki?

Bhakti-caru: Yes. You took some lunch today, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You took morning and lunch.

Prabhupāda: That is very little.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. But compared to other days, you took as much or more. Well, then we can postpone and we can put ourselves under the care of this other kavirāja who came the other day.

Prabhupāda: Who came?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Remember the kavirāja from the Raṅgajī temple? The assistant that this man was going to bring. So now we can be put under his care and take our chances. 'Cause that's what staying here means.

Bhavānanda: The kavirāj-jī, he explained that if you remained here, that would be good. But he didn't think there was any risk of death for you to go to Māyāpur.

Prabhupāda: No, actually, when I was making parikramā, this corner, I was feeling fainted.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This corner?

Brahmānanda: At the turn. Prabhupāda felt like fainting.

Bhavānanda: I saw when he closed his eyes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, most of this traveling that we're going to do, you will be laying down.

Prabhupāda: That laying down and this laying down, that is different.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, then we have to think of what the alternative is. Staying here means being subject to the possible care of this assistant who you saw the other day, 'cause this kavirāja will not wait any longer. He can't stay here any longer. We can try and convince him to stay, but I don't know how successful we will be. And he may give his medicines, but if some unforeseen difficulty develops, then it means that we are under the care of this other person.

Bhavānanda: This palanquin parikramā is very rough. You're bouncing up and down. You're going swinging sideways.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (aside) It's not as rough as traveling to Māyāpur, though—not one tenth as rough or one fiftieth. You know, all you got to do is go on a rough road. It's nothing. This palanquin is smooth compared to that, going slowly and being carried. I think the main point, Śrīla Prabhupāda, is that we have to consider going as opposed to staying here with the possibility of being at the . . . under the care of this other kavirāja. That to me is the choice. This kavirāja will give medicines . . . first of all, we can try to convince him to stay, but failing that, he's giving a series of medicines which he expects will be proper according to the condition. But naturally the condition can change on any date. Then what will we do?

Prabhupāda: I say no medicine.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No medicine. We should reject this kavirāja.

(background whispering)

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Brahmānanda: Yadubara was asking how much time the kavirāja would stay with you in Māyāpur.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Every few days he'll be there—every two days, every three days.

Yadubara: He said like that?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, he's prepared to do that.

Bhavānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Is there some . . . you're feeling some bad effect from these medicines that you want to reject them? (pause)

Prabhupāda: At least there is risk of life.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: By traveling.

Prabhupāda: I see that.

Bhavānanda: We've also seen, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that while you've been here in Vṛndāvana without this kavirāja, your condition has steadily deteriorated. Now he's come, and there's some slight improvement. We can speak to him about staying, but it's highly unlikely that he'll be able to stay away from his practice for any time longer. Then, if your condition turns again, then what do we do? There's also risk.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Risk is there, and risk is here. So better take the risk here.

Bhavānanda: And chance of survival is here and chance of survival is there. But where is the . . .

Prabhupāda: No. Provided you reach there. There is survival or whatever it may be, but whether there is arrival? The best thing is no medicine, and kindly give me some circambulation and leave me to the fate.

Bhakti-caru: But, Śrīla Prabhupāda, don't you think that the medicine is working, is having some good effect?

Prabhupāda: Hmm? This medicine is working, then why I'm not feeling any strength?

Bhakti-caru: That will come slowly, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Ah. That means I have to take the medicine and not that risking. The best thing is, whatever service you can give, you arrange. Leave me without medicine.

Bhavānanda: Why is that the best thing, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Why is that the best thing?

Prabhupāda: Because all, everything has failed.

Bhavānanda: This kavirāja has not promised miraculous recovery. He has said it takes time.

Bhakti-caru: Yes. At least fifteen days, he said.

Bhavānanda: We're all feeling encouraged for the first time.

Bhakti-caru: Actually, the kavirāja has left it up to you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. He said that the way you have cured your cough and cold in just a day, in just a few hours' time, the same way you can cure all your disease if you want, just yourself, without any medicine. At the same time, you dreamed this Rāmānuja kavirāja giving you the medicine, and ever since you started taking the medicines there has been some good effect, like you started passing more urine, you started getting a little appetite, little taste; your swelling has gone down, to a little . . . to some extent.

Prabhupāda: Swelling has not . . . (long silence)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? About two days ago you said that either the kavirāja should stay here or we should go with him. So why should we change that idea?

Prabhupāda: Because in this morning I was fainting. So there was no strength. How long I circambulate?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: About a half hour.

Prabhupāda: Even half hour, if I am fainting . . . so if I die without medicine, without kavirāja, what is the harm? Hmm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: According to the kavirāja, his treatment is that first of all he has to take care of your liver and kidneys before giving you strength. He said there's no question of you getting any strength until your liver and kidneys are healed.

Prabhupāda: So take the medicine.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. So the first part of his cure is to help your liver and kidneys. Then, when they are functioning properly, you'll be able to eat and other things which will automatically give strength. Medicine will not give strength, but medicine can cure the organs which are now not working properly.

Prabhupāda: No, you take medicine from him.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right. That was his proposal. His proposal was that you take medicine, and then after ten or fifteen days, you may have enough strength . . . and he was going to come back and then take you to Māyāpur.

Prabhupāda: So do that.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. The only reason that we were hesitant was because if something along the way happens, had he been here, he could have adjusted the medicine to suit the particular needs. Now, not being here, we'll have to depend upon this assistant in case something changes. If nothing changes, then there's no harm. But if something should suddenly alter . . .

Prabhupāda: So that time . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Alter means death.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, it doesn't mean death. Alter means supposing you suddenly develop some . . . you can't say what it will be. It doesn't necessarily mean death.

Bhakti-caru: Some secondary ailments.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Anything may come up. Just like sometimes you get a cough. Cough doesn't mean death. Sometimes you pass a little more stool. That doesn't mean death. So anyway, the idea is that having a kavirāja personally present naturally is the best thing. So if it's not possible, and that does develop, then we'll have to call upon the man he's . . . this assistant.

Prabhupāda: So why call Māyāpur? Let him supply the medicine from Calcutta.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Supply the medicine from Calcutta. Well, he said he can give enough medicine now to last, I think, for about another ten days. Even now.

Prabhupāda: So that is all right.

Bhakti-caru: Yes. The main medicine, we have the supply for ten days already, that, the one that he distilled yesterday.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Of course, we can still try and convince him not to go. That would be the best thing.

Prabhupāda: No, he's staying, but actually you are administering his medicine. It doesn't require . . .

Bhakti-caru: . . . his presence here.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Providing everything goes according to his plan. Yes, his presence is simply an encouragement, not necessarily a necessity at this . . . so far.

Prabhupāda: If he cannot stay, let his medicine remain and let him go. But if you think that I am burden now . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (chuckling) No, that's not what we think. We will never think that. There will never come that time.

Brahmānanda: We are the burden, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We are the cause of your disease, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Brahmānanda: You have to drag us back to Godhead. That is a very big burden.

Prabhupāda: So as you think. But this morning I was fainting.

Bhakti-caru: That is because this parikramā is very strenuous, Śrīla Prabhupāda, this jerking and swinging.

Prabhupāda: So how . . .? How? How we can?

Brahmānanda: So three hours to Delhi, then the plane ride and then three hours to Māyāpur?

Bhakti-caru: No, I mean that is out of question.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's not out of the question. We were considering doing it. (laughter) It's only three hours away. (laughter)

Brahmānanda: The cars are coming.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The cars are coming. The tickets are booked. It's not out of the question. Śatadhanya's in Calcutta. (laughter)

Bhakti-caru: But then again there is one advantage, that all along he can lie down. His Divine Grace can lie down.

Upendra: The only time he feels faint is when he's sitting up.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So Upendra says that the time that you get faint is when you're sitting up. If you lay down you don't get faint. If the issue is that you got faint, then that's only because . . . I've seen you sitting in this bed and getting fainting sometimes, sitting up, fainting. Laying down . . . you can't faint when you lay down. Fainting is when you're sitting up. But practically the whole time you'll be sitting up . . . I mean laying down. And neither fainting is necessarily . . . that is not a sign of death, fainting.

Prabhupāda: Fainting means of death.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What, Śrīla Prabhupāda? I know myself, I have a history where I have fainted more than twenty-five times in my life, and I did not die. I fainted in so many different places. In the subways in New York . . .

Prabhupāda: You are young man, and I am already dead. (whispered conversation)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Why don't we see what the kavirāja thinks, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Should we call him?

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

(whispered conversation)

Prabhupāda: Why "phish-phish"? Why not talk?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Stop whispering. Upendra was saying that not going is all right, but the fact that you are rejecting medicine, that is not good. So I was saying that I don't really think that you're rejecting the medicine, but you're taking that position so that we settle in between. (laughing) I can understand that you appreciate that the medicine is doing some good, but in order to get us to agree . . .

Brahmānanda: It is you who were saying that by Prabhupāda's not going, then we're at a loss for medicine. So then Prabhupāda said: "All right, then no medicine."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Also Prabhupāda's saying no medicine so that if we say: "All right, stay, but take the medicine," then Prabhupāda will . . .

Bhakti-caru: He'll agree to that, yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Transcendental bargaining. (laughs) Śrīla Prabhupāda, I have seen you dealing with the most tricky people in the world. I saw you dealing with that Mr. Nair, and then with that other man, Mr. Ratnaparkhe? So I can understand that when you say, (laughs) "No medicine at all," that we will then simply say: "Well, please, Śrīla Prabhupāda, just take medicine and then you stay here," and you'll say: "All right." (laughs)

Prabhupāda: I want simply once parikramā.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One mahā-parikramā?

Prabhupāda: No.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, one time around. Not many times.

Prabhupāda: No, no. As I am doing, that much. Medicine, no medicine . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, actually, we're also wanting you to do parikramā, but we would . . . one day we are hoping to see you walking the parikramā.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. For the time being, if by parikramā, fainting, dying, that is a glorious. That I want. Will it be great burden?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, no. That's not the question, of burden. The only thing is that we want you to get better. There's no question of burden.

Prabhupāda: No, no, better . . .

Jayādvaita: It's a burden of love.

Prabhupāda: Better . . . if suppose I am sure to die, then where is better?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, but we don't suppose that. We're not supposing that you're sure to die.

Bhavānanda: We don't feel that at all.

Brahmānanda: I don't think there's any question that you're going to die, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: In the morning this symptom . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda, you fainted . . . although you don't remember sometimes, you have fainted at least a half a dozen times in the last month or two. I know you don't recall it, because we did not say anything. But we have seen you faint at least a half a dozen times, actually faint, falling backwards a little bit in bed when you were sitting up. In extreme weakness, fainting is natural. It is not necessarily a symptom of death. It's due to excessive weakness. The blood does not circulate properly in the head, and one faints. I mean, people faint all over the world all the time.

Jayādvaita: On Janmāṣṭamī when they're fainting . . . when all the devotees fast, everyone faints. All day long they're fainting.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Jayādvaita: On Janmāṣṭamī, when there's mandatory fasting for all the devotees, half of the devotees are fainting throughout the day.

Brahmānanda: They faint?

Jayādvaita: Yes.

Bhavānanda: Subhaga always faints.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes devotees faint just from fasting one day. You have fasted for six months, Śrīla Prabhupāda. If you faint a little bit, it's not a sign of death.

Prabhupāda: No, no. I am welcoming death.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I know. That's the . . . that's why we're talk . . .

Bhavānanda: But we are not. We are not welcoming the idea of your death, Śrīla Prabhupāda. You say: "What is the harm?" There is no harm for you. Your return to Kṛṣṇa has been assured from your very birth.

Prabhupāda: So why not allow me to do that?

Bhavānanda: We are thinking of the harm for us and the rest of the world.

Prabhupāda: That depends on Kṛṣṇa. But for me, if you give me this facility—one parikramā, and then leave me to my fate—you'll give me . . . because I am not eating, so keep me whole day as I am. But if you think that I have become burden, then . . .

(whispering about what Prabhupāda said about burden)

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Bhavānanda: I was just saying, Śrīla Prabhupāda, something must have happened that you're feeling somehow that we think that you have become a burden. But we don't feel that way at all, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Jayādvaita: You've given the example in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam that when a capitalist has money, that's also a burden. And when the woman has a child, that child is a burden. So in the same way . . . but that burden is a burden of love. So you're that kind of burden, the kind of burden that's wanted.

Prabhupāda: Where is kavirāja?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bhakti-caru went to get him.

Kavirāja: Kyu maharaj, kya ho gaya apko? (What happened to you Mahārāja?)

Prabhupāda: Aaj savere jab parikrama kar raha tha to us samay fainting maloom hota tha. Isliye jaldi aake idhar so gaya. (Today in the morning when I was doing parikramā, I was fainting. So I returned quickly and lay down here.)

Kavirāja: Accha jab aapko maloom pada to ji ghabaraya kya andar se nahi? andar kuch ghabarahat hui, chakkar aane lage? (When you were fainting, did you experience some palpitations? Did you feel that? Was your head spinning?)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Swelling is reducing.

Prabhupāda: Bahut buri tarah se. (Very badly.)

Prabhupāda: Is halat me 10 ghanta, 12 ghanta lagta hai. (In this condition, traveling for ten hours, it takes 12 hours.)

Kavirāja: Haan, aur ye sadak bhi theek nahi hai. Thoda pressure dekhon aaj main. Accha uske baad me to nahi hua, aane ke baad me phir bhi hua yahan. Accha aaj aapko jaisa hua pehle bhi hua tha kabhi? Yaad hai? Smriti nahi hai? (Yes. The roads are also not in proper condition now. Let me check your pressure today. So, did you experience any more problems after returning here, no? Did you previously feel something similar to what happened today? Do you recall?)

Prabhupāda: I can't remember any such incident.

Kavirāja: Aaj tatti hua? (Has he passed stool today?)

Devotee: Subah hua tha. (Yes, in the morning.)

Kavirāja: Accha uske baad nahi. pressure to theek hi hai. neeche ka 85 aur upar ka 165. kamzori ke hisab se kuch zyada hai baki age ke hisab se unka ekdam normal blood pressure hai. (No more after that. Okay. Pressure is alright. Lowest is 85. The Highest is 165. Given his age, the weakness is too much but the pressure is perfectly normal.)

Kavirāja: Ab baat ye hai maharaj journey to kafi hai. Journey jo hai ye 8-10 ghante ki hai, ye yatra jo hai na ye 8-10 ghanta ki hai. Kuch kamzor hai bol ke baki heart ka function to theek hai. Aap ki kya aagya hai boliye aap. (Now, Mahārāja, the thing is that this journey of eight to ten hours is quite long. Weakness is there but the condition of the heart is normal. Please tell me what your desire is?)

Prabhupāda: (Nahi wo savere symptom dekhkarke . . .) (No, just see the symptoms in the morning . . .)

Kavirāja: To ab ke bar teher ke aa jaiye. Sivaye kamzori ke wo apko jo fit hua hai na wo aap baithe rahe na wo apko weakness se hua bus aur koi reason nahi. koi high pressure ho ya low pressure hua ho koi reason nahi. accha heart kaam kar raha hai, heart me bhi koi rakm ka nahi jisse fit aa sakta hai heart se bhi, nothing. ye jo hua hai ye weakness bahut zyada kyunki kuch khana-peena kuch gaya hi nahi. sharir me blood ki kami hai, har cheez ki kami hai. Wo aap baithe rahe, parishram pada, parishram se apko ye sab hua. aur koi upadrav nahi hai. Ab jaane me maan lijiye yahan se delhi tak jaana bhi bada kharab hai kyunki beech me rasta itna kharab hai. main to aaya hoo na, usme itne 10 gear me, matlab aadha mile ka rasta to bahut hi kharab hai. (So, just go there for a few days. This fit that happened to you in the morning has no other reason except weakness caused by sitting up. High pressure or low pressure is not the problem. The heart is also working normally. Simply, lack of food intake has caused deficiency of blood and many other things. Therefore, when you were sitting up, the body became fatigued leading to this problem. There is no other problem. Now, traveling to Delhi is also difficult because the road is very bad, at least for half a mile. I have come recently.) (end)