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771030 - Conversation B - Vrndavana

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

771030R2-VRNDAVAN - October 30, 1977 - 93:33 Minutes

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . about book sales and sells twelve to fifteen thousand rupees a month. It's very nice to see these foreign people coming to Vṛndāvana, having read your books, coming here. It's like a perfect fulfillment of your books. They're so much impressed with the subject matter that they want to see this Vṛndāvana. Especially they have read Kṛṣṇa book. To them Vṛndāvana is like a magical world.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Hindi book is selling nice.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hmm-hmm. He said so.

Prabhupāda: Four hundred, five hundred—no joke.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, no joke. That Bengali Back to Godhead is very good also. This one has come out very nice, the layout and everything. It's very good.

Prabhupāda: He writes nice.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bhakti-caru?

Prabhupāda: No, who has written?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Who wrote those articles?

Bhavānanda: Bhakti-caru and . . . Bhakti-caru, Sarvabhāvana.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sarvabhāvana and Bhakti-caru. Bhakti-caru is very literary, poetic type.

Bhavānanda: Viśāla said . . . I was asking him last night. He said that the most difficult people for selling books to are the Bengalis when they come. They're the most difficult. But everyone else, they are more receptive.

Prabhupāda: And Gītār Gān is taken, everyone who comes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: To Māyāpur.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. That Bābājī was telling.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, Bābājī, Kṛṣṇa dāsa.

Prabhupāda: He said that, "In everyone's hand I see Gītār Gān."

Bhavānanda: Yes. (laughs) That's true. They take Gītār Gān and a Bhāgavata Darśana.

Śatadhanya: And they're anxious for the next issue.

Prabhupāda: They have already published twenty thousand.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Twenty thousand. Very good sale. Good scope in Bengal.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Everywhere. Two hundred men already subscribed. If we increase subscribers—many, many.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You like that idea?

Prabhupāda: Why not?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: When the boys are going village to village, if they get subscriptions, it's good?

Prabhupāda: Very good.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hmm. That's a nice program. Anybody can afford it. What is a yearly subscription to the Bhāgavata Darśana?

Bhavānanda: Only one problem with Bhāgavata subscription is theft in the mail. It's very difficult to get it . . . for it to reach its destination.

Prabhupāda: No, they make contact. For twelve rupees they'll get twelve copies.

Bhavānanda: When they contact.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bhavānanda: That's good idea.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You mean they have to come and collect.

Bhavānanda: Yes. They come to the temple few times a year, once a year. They'll get their copies and go.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then you have to keep them set aside with the person's name on it? That's not so hard. Just stick the person's name on it.

Bhavānanda: Or if someone's going on traveling saṅkīrtana in that area—'cause we always know where they're going—they can take and deliver if they're going near. No problem. But the magazine is so attractive that the postal clerks, they cannot resist taking it home to their family. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: You can get advertisement. But we don't want it.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I don't think . . . it diminishes the prestige of the publication. By Kṛṣṇa's grace we have no shortage of money.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Have it. So we shall construct a Yoga-pīṭha Bhaktivedanta Hall.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hmm. Yoga-pīṭha Bhaktivedanta Hall.

Bhavānanda: Oh!

Prabhupāda: And we have a bookstall there. Make it like that.

Bhavānanda: Oh, yes.

Prabhupāda: For the last fifty years they could not . . .

Bhavānanda: Make.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bhavānanda: Very nice.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What is the idea of that?

Prabhupāda: They have no shade. What is called? Darśana-maṇḍapa.

Bhavānanda: Right.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I don't understand.

Bhavānanda: At the yoga-pīṭha . . .

Prabhupāda: At yoga-pīṭha.

Bhavānanda: . . . when people come for darśana there's no covered area for them. They've been trying to construct for years and years. They've never been able to do. So you have to stand out. If it's raining, what do you do? There's no shelter.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, that's right. There's nothing there.

Prabhupāda: And Śrīdhara Mahārāja could not finish. He has spent five, ten thousand, I think—finished. In this way we shall serve Gauḍa-maṇḍala. And the interest will come to charity. What is the interest of ten and a half lakhs?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's, every month . . . one of the . . . one of the interests for the five lakhs is 4,166 rupees, and the other is 4,666. So that's 8,800 say, times ten is 88,800, plus another sixteen. So about one lakh, five thousand per year.

Prabhupāda: That means twelve thousand.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Per month you mean?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, per month it would be about nine thousand rupees a month.

Prabhupāda: No, more.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, Śrīla Prabhupāda. One lakh, five thousand, divided by twelve—a little less than ten thousand a month.

Prabhupāda: So you can pay that way ten thousand month? Huh? Bhavānanda?

Bhavānanda: Yes. Oh, yes.

Prabhupāda: Do it very conscientiously.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. We'll begin with . . . we'll already have one lakh. So the first year we've already got, to begin with, one lakh of rupees—if you like that idea, to begin with that.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Whenever there is money, spend it. Is that idea all right?

Bhavānanda: Yes. I always am for spending money for projects for Your Divine Grace. I especially like this idea of Yoga-pīṭha Bhaktivedanta Hall. Very nice. Isn't it, Tamāla?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hmm. Yes. It's very nice idea, because people come to Māyāpur, they don't only go to our ISKCON temple. Even when they go to other temples, they should have a good impression of Caitanya Mahāprabhu's movement.

Prabhupāda: Prāṇair arthair dhiyā vācā (SB 10.22.35): "Life, money, intelligence and words." So I am old man; my life has no value. You young men, utilize your . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We may have life, but you have all intelligence, Śrīla Prabhupāda. So life without intelligence . . .

Prabhupāda: Everyone has got intelligence—more or less, that's all.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, you have complete, and we have practically none.

Prabhupāda: No . . .

Bhavānanda: We have no spiritual intelligence.

Prabhupāda: Complete knowledge—Kṛṣṇa. Aiśvaryasya samagrasya (Viṣṇu Purāṇa 6.5.47). Complete knowledge can be claimed by Kṛṣṇa, even not by Nārāyaṇa. Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). Everything is coming. Vedāham. What is that verse? Vedahaṁ sarvāṇi māṁ ca veda na kaścana? The kavirāja went to Pāgla Bābā? He has praised me very much.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Really? Hmm. I think everyone praises you, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: That is very difficult. (laughter) You have all taken meals?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. While we were taking, we were thinking that you were seeing us, and we were satisfied. We were thinking that the spiritual master is very much satisfied when he sees his disciples respecting bhāgavata-prasādam. (break) . . . pray, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that you recover. You won't have to be bothered now by any more worries of any kind. You simply can translate and see all of the temples and the devotees. It will be very nice. You've never in all these years been able to be free of the worries and anxieties, but now you'll be able to be. Kṛṣṇa may grant you some more years so you can just have nice time with all of your disciples, visiting all the Deities. (pause) Like to take a little rest now, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Yes. What can I do? (laughs) (scratching sound) Whose hand it is? Whose hand?

Bhavānanda: Śatadhanya.

Śatadhanya: Is it cold, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Summertime it's good.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Make them warm. Make your hand warm by the stove.

Prabhupāda: Somebody's hand is warm, I want.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Get your hands warm.

Prabhupāda: Whose hand?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Tamāla Kṛṣṇa. Better?

Prabhupāda: Where is boada?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Your sister. I'm just calling right now. (long pause—Śrīla Prabhupāda is sleeping) (break) . . . of the different businesses of Vrindavan? Well, first of all he was getting money for traveling expenses. So I have written a letter to Mr. Bekkar, the manager of the Central Bank of India at Camac Street, informing him that henceforward the interest from the fixed deposits in the name of BBT should be stopped from giving it to Vrinda Book Company, and instead the money should be transferred by mail transfer to the Central Bank of India, Gwalior Tank Road, to BBT account. I gave all the details. That's one letter. Then furthermore, I also addressed a letter to the Punjab National Bank, Brabourn Road, informing them that the Rs. 500 should be stopped from being given to Shrimati Radharani De, because . . . I didn't mention this, but the reason is that she'll be getting one thousand rupees from Indian Overseas Bank. And I'm sending that letter . . .

Prabhupāda: Oh . . . has Indian Overseas arranged?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Let me explain what I was going to say. The letter to Punjab Bank I have not sent to the bank. Rather, I have sent it to Girirāja and informed him that when the Indian Overseas Bank sends their first transfer of Rs. 1,000, then he may send the letter to Punjab Bank regarding Radharani De. In other words, when we first get it confirmed . . .

Prabhupāda: Why not Punjab National Bank, as they are sending, let them send and ask Overseas five hundred?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, because we've already given them a scheme which accounts for everybody. Better to have the whole thing done in a very organized way from one bank, rather than a little here, a little from there. That is simply confusing. Besides that, the . . . it's just a lot simpler, you know, if we do it this way. That is my opinion, because we've already given a scheme to Indian Overseas. We've put fixed deposits worth a certain amount which bring one thousand rupees' interest. So now, if we have to tell them a whole new scheme, then it becomes confusion. It's easier simply to inform the Punjab Bank to discontinue sending the five hundred rupees.

Prabhupāda: And unless they send, Overseas . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, no. I am not sending a letter to Punjab Bank. The letter is being sent to Girirāja with the clear instruction on cover letter, "Only send this letter to Punjab Bank after you have it confirmed that they have begun to dispatch Rs. 1,000 per month." The same way we did for Sulakshmana De. When we stopped sending it from here and we began sending from Bombay, we only told them to stop when it had begun to be sent from another bank. In other words, she'll get the money first from Indian Overseas before the other payment's stopped.

Prabhupāda: So how she will get?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Rs. 1,000 per month.

Prabhupāda: How?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: A transfer from Indian Overseas Bank to her account in Bank of . . . I think it's in United Bank of India, direct into her account. Her account is joint signature of herself and Vrindavan Chandra.

Prabhupāda: Oh. So she is informed?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. All of them are informed. Then I've also sent a letter to the Central Bank of India—again I'm not sending it to Central Bank; I've given it to Girirāja—that when they start to get the 250 rupees a month from Indian Overseas, then we will stop sending the 250 from Central Bank of India. In other words, everything will be done from one bank, right on our land. It's a lot easier to deal with it this way. It's much cleaner. Then . . . let me see what else. I also sent a letter to M. M. De today. I requested him to please tell me what his bank account number is. I also . . . he's dealing with most of the business of Panchashil flat. According to Vrindavan-candra, M.M. deals with these matters. Apparently he has a little more legal mind. Probably he's more intelligent. Anyway . . .

Prabhupāda: No, who?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: M. M. De. So in my letter to him I explained to him that . . . I enclosed a copy of the conveyance draft, and I requested him that as far as I was concerned, the draft was all right, but that he should check up with some of the other flat owners. If they have executed a similar conveyance, please inform me, and then we will do as they have done. I also told him that whatever taxes or other things which he pays should be paid in your name, and receipts should be gotten in your name, and copies of the receipts he can please send me for my records. And I also wrote to him that regarding the permanent electricity supply, if the four of them together pay half of the amount, then as soon as they send me the receipt, then I will send a check for the other half. Those were the points I wrote in the letter to him. What I'm going to do is, as soon as I get this amendment done which mentions about the misspending, not to misspend the money—squandering clause—then I will send a copy of that along with a letter, explaining to them how each one of them will be getting Rs. 250, and then after seven years, you know, the bigger amount. And then I will send them a copy of that squandering clause with that, saying: "But you should not squander this money. It must be invested in fixed deposits or government bonds. Otherwise your monthly pension will be stopped, and it will be given to Bhaktivedanta Swami Charity." I'm only going to do that after I get the amendment clause finished. So like that, everything was done, and I finished all of that business today. Also I wrote a letter to Dr. Ghosh, telling him that whatever money he advances we will match, again repeating our offer that we have two rooms ready. And I also mentioned to him how . . . he mentioned how he was a little disappointed with his discussions. I said that is not so surprising, because our gurukula is ultimately meant for spiritual education, not otherwise, and we're only going to give a little basic hygiene teaching. I said: "Mainly now you should take up this dispensary. We are very eager for that." And again I invited him to come here soon. And I gave him a report of your health. And I also sent a letter to Bank of America in Los Angeles for transferring six hundred dollars to Prabhaviṣṇu in Nepal, because each month we have to give him that money so he can stay there and work there nicely. And then I did some other letters to Punjab Bank in Delhi to the head office, telling them that the interests . . . for now the interest from those fixed deposits we'll have credited to your account here. And once we have the first meeting of the Bhaktivedanta Charity Trust . . . Bhaktivedanta Swami Charity Trust, we'll open a bank account, probably in Māyāpur or Swarup Ganj.

Prabhupāda: Why not open the Charity Trust account in Delhi?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In Delhi?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, I would think that for operating it, it would be a lot more . . . my idea was that it would be better to have it in the Māyāpur area itself, since it is primarily meant for spending . . . it is meant entirely for spending in Gauḍa-maṇḍala-bhūmi. My idea was that we would open the account in Gauḍa-maṇḍala-bhūmi area and give instruction to . . .

Prabhupāda: Gauḍa . . . (indistinct) . . . area where?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, right now our bank accounts are in Swarup Ganj, Bhavānanda Mahārāja?

Bhavānanda: We have in Swarup Ganj and Navadvīpa and Krishnanagar.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I felt we would open it in either Swarup Ganj or Navadvīpa.

Bhavānanda: Navadvīpa is good banks.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In Navadvīpa. And give the standing instruction at that time to Parliament Street bank to transfer every month the interest. That was my idea. But for the time being we have to tell them what to do with the interest. So I thought instead of going to the botheration of opening new accounts at the Punjab Bank at Parliament Street, let them go on transferring it to your accounts here. And then, when we open the Charity Trust account, then I'll give them a fresh instruction.

Prabhupāda: What . . .? The . . . in the Punjab National Bank, fixed deposits in the name of?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Fixed deposits are in the name of . . . five lakhs are in the name of Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma Temple Maintenance account, and five lakhs, sixty thousand in the name of Māyāpur-Vṛndāvana Trust.

Prabhupāda: Oh. So where they will kept?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The interest or the fixed deposits? The fixed deposits are in Delhi, and the interest, for now, for the next few months, I am instructing the bank to continue to transfer to the accounts here in Vṛndāvana that it's always been given to. Then when the Bhaktivedanta Swami Charity Trust account is opened, I will issue a fresh instruction to the Parliament Street bank that the money, the interest money, should be transferred to that account in Navadvīpa or wherever we open the account. My idea was simply that since the money is to be spent in Gauḍa-maṇḍala-bhūmi, then when we write checks out, etcetera, from that account, it's much easier to encash it rather than having to go to Delhi for encashment.

Prabhupāda: No, why Gauḍa-maṇḍala-bhūmi? Wherever needed.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, you said that the purpose of the Bhaktivedanta Swami Charity Trust was for development of Gauḍa-maṇḍala-bhūmi. That was your original . . . at least, that's what you initially told us.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Which is better?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Which is better?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That it should be just for Gauḍa-maṇḍala-bhūmi or general?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, I think it's better for Gauḍa-maṇḍala-bhūmi. Because for general, we have ISKCON. For general, we have the . . . I'll explain, Śrīla Prabhupāda. For general, the GBC has formed the Māyāpur-Vṛndāvana Committee. That is more or less . . . your original name of it was Māyāpur-Vṛndāvana Trust. So we've formed a Māyāpur-Vṛndāvana Committee made up of the following seven people: Jayapatākā Mahārāja, Gopāla Kṛṣṇa Prabhu, Girirāja, myself, Rāmeśvara, and Gurukṛpā Mahārāja and Ātreya Ṛṣi. So these seven meet, and they divide up the money that comes from all the interests of the fixed deposits in India, and they will recommend how that money should be spent. Once a year they will consider at Māyāpur all the different requests from Bhuvaneśvara, from Māyāpur, from Bombay, from Vṛndāvana—everywhere—and they will divide up the interest accordingly. So the Bhaktivedanta Charity Trust could be simply for the Gauḍa-maṇḍala-bhūmi area. That was my idea.

Prabhupāda: Whichever suitable.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Which is suitable.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, I think that the general is already covered by this Māyāpur-Vṛndāvana Trust committee. That's for all of India. And Gauḍa-maṇḍala-bhūmi is especially for encouraging the development of Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavism in that area—Śrīdhara Mahārāja's nātha-mandira, this Yoga-pīṭha Bhaktivedanta Hall. Different buildings. Maybe someone has . . . supposing one of your Godbrothers may have written some manuscript; he has no money. We can print some books for him so he can sell them, like that—works within the Māyāpur area.

Prabhupāda: That we shall fix up, what to spend.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The Bhaktivedanta Swami Charity trustees would fix that up?

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: All right.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I don't know if I'm understanding your desires about all of these points.

Prabhupāda: No. My point is that all this interest will go for charity.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. "All of the interest" means from all of the different fixed deposits or from these ten lakhs, sixty thousand? Just like we have . . . I'll give you an example. In Bombay we have that Māyāpur-Vṛndāvana Trust fixed deposits in Bank of America. So those are big amount. So those fixed deposits and other fixed deposits, that money, I was thinking, would be decided upon by that Māyāpur-Vṛndāvana Trust committee. Because those are all ISKCON men.

Prabhupāda: That's all right.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Madhusūdana Mahārāja, Mādhava Mahārāja, they may decide for the Bhaktivedanta Swami Charity Trust with the other five of us.

Prabhupāda: That's all right.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is that all right, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: All right.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think your prasādam is here, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: All right. (break) . . . (indistinct)

Bhakti-caru: Yes. (break)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How do you feel that this kavirāja's medicine is affecting, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Can you feel a change or . . .

Prabhupāda: Yesterday I felt so . . . (indistinct) . . . but this massage is always . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Massage is always welcome. Perhaps this might be a nice time to call Jayādvaita and Pradyumna. Do you feel like speaking and hearing about Bhāgavatam?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You have no objection if they come?

Prabhupāda: No.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So I'll arrange for them to come, Śrīla Prabhupāda. We haven't heard from Tenth Canto in a few days. That would be nice, I think. (break)

Jayādvaita: . . . sent me an urgent telegram asking me to send the book manuscript and also to pick up another manuscript that he'd sent. So I went for . . . he told me to go for three days and not to come back to Vṛndāvana until it was done. But I went for one day. But I heard that I inconvenienced you because you couldn't translate that night. I'm sorry that I held up the work. (pause) That anthology book I think will come out very nicely.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Jayādvaita: That anthology book of different articles written by Your Divine Grace, I think that will come out very nicely. That's what Rāmeśvara was having me send him.

Prabhupāda: Anthology?

Jayādvaita: It's a collection—Rāmeśvara mentioned it while you were here . . . while he was here—a collection of different articles from Back to Godhead written by yourself. There's your conversation with Professor Kotovsky, and also from the old BTG you were publishing in India there's that article "Relevant Inquiries." That's very wonderful article. Your correspondence with Dr. Stahl, that's also there. And lectures from different places. When you first arrived in London there's a very wonderful lecture. So many wonderful articles that have been published over the years in BTG. But the real thing is Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bhakti-caru: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Ektu phaler rosh enechi. (I brought a little fruit juice.)

Prabhupāda: (indistinct Bengali) . . . bosho . . . (indistinct Bengali) (. . . sit down.) (break) Covering?

Śatadhanya: Yes, Prabhupāda. Do you like heavy cover?

Prabhupāda: Hmm. (break)

Svarūpa Dāmodara: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes. He should not have come in touch, in the material qualities. And in Prema-vivarta it is said:

kṛṣṇa-boliya-jiv bhoga vāñchā kare
pasate māyā tāre jāpaṭiyā dhare

So as soon as he forgets Kṛṣṇa and wants to enjoy life independently, that is guṇa-saṅga, and falls down. It is falldown. This guṇa-saṅga . . . puruṣaḥ prakṛti-stho hi bhuṅkte . . . (BG 13.22). What is that verse?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: You know the verse?

Śatadhanya: Which one?

Prabhupāda: You can find out.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's from the Gītā?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Guṇa, guṇa.

Prabhupāda: Puruṣaḥ prakṛti-stho hi bhuṅkte tad-guṇān (BG 13.22). You find out?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, he's bringing, Śatadhanya Mahārāja.

Prabhupāda: Tumi ki Kolkatay jabe? (Will you go to Calcutta?)

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Ami? Jokhon Prabhupāda jaben amio jabo. (Me? When Prabhupāda goes, I will also go.)


puruṣaḥ prakṛti-stho hi
bhuṅkte prakṛti-jān guṇān
kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya
(BG 13.22)

"The living entity in material nature thus follows the ways of life, enjoying the three modes of nature. This is due to his association with that material nature. Thus he meets with good and evil amongst various species."

Prabhupāda: Is it clear?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. So in that sense, matter is also life, but covered.

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So the philosophy of acintya-bhedābheda-tattva . . .

Prabhupāda: Matter is also energy. It is also energy. As energy, they are one. But have . . . they have differentiated in different . . . is it clear?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: The . . . except spirit, other things are superficial, but they are there. Prakṛti-stha. So his fault is to come in touch with the matter. Just like we are cleansing. The stool is also part of the body, but we are cleaning. Is it clear?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Stool is not required. (pause)

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, that example of the flower bud is nice. I can understand it better now.

Prabhupāda: Kṣīṇe puṇye punar martya-lokaṁ viśanti (BG 9.21). By association of pāpa-puṇya, he suffers or enjoys. When the enjoyment is finished, he again falls down with vṛṣṭi and . . . jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi. Then, from water, again grows. Very troublesome business.

ei rūpe brahmāṇḍa bhramite kona bhāgyavān jīva
guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja
(CC Madhya 19.151)

Ei rokom kore otha nama hocche. Er madhye je bhagyavan she Krishna ke pay. Bhakti . . . (indistinct) . . . probesh kore. (In this way the living entities keep going up and down. Among them the fortunate ones are able to attain Kṛṣṇa.) (break)

Svarūpa Dāmodara: . . . is like this, that he thinks both are the same?

Prabhupāda: He thinks, but it . . . it is not the fact.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: One is covered consciousness, matter. So it is inferior.

Prabhupāda: The covering matter is inferior.

Devotee: How the Māyāvādī thinks that he can . . . that the material energy is false, when at every step he's baffled by the material energy?

Prabhupāda: That is his foolishness. Therefore Kṛṣṇa instructs, but he does not take. He wants to remain in māyā and at the same time claim that he is liberated.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Also, modern science tries to compromise—I'm sorry—Māyāvādīs try to compromise with modern science.

Prabhupāda: There is no other way. They cannot make a solution, so they must try to make a compromise.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Just like when we say that spiritual atom or ātmā is innumerable in numbers, they immediately come up.

Prabhupāda: Sa anantyāya kalpate (CC Madhya 19.140). As there are many molecules in the sunshine, similarly, yasya prabhā (BS 5.40), by . . . in the effulgence of God there are so many molecules, or spiritual spark.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Also, even it makes stronger now, that within the atom, if there is a jīva or life which is not developed, so it will be many more, innumerable.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Aṇḍāntara-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-stham (BS 5.35). That is the difficulty. They do not want to take śāstra as it is.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They want to interpret according to their whims.

Śatadhanya: And they want to adjust it according to the time.

Prabhupāda: And that is Māyāvāda. (break) . . . superficially Caitanya Mahāprabhu also a Māyāvādī.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. That was confirmed when He was talking like that. Just like Carl Jung . . . he's a psychologist. He says that matter, it is a concept, some sort of imagination that one has in his mind, something like that idea that these Māyāvādīs . . . they think this is not real.

Prabhupāda: It is not real in this sense: because the spirit is there, therefore it is there. Because there is consciousness, there is ignorance, covering. And if you stop this ignorance, then consciousness is there, pure.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: When the consciousness is undeveloped, looks like dead body.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. (break)

Svarūpa Dāmodara: In a living body, in a living cell, actually it is made up of innumerable lives. But among these innumerable lives, the jīva, who is . . .

Prabhupāda: He's a particular individual. In the body . . . just like you are in this room. When you leave this room, the room becomes vacant, but there are innumerable other jīvas.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But different consciousness. So among these innumerable lives making this whole living body, there is one which is highly . . .

Prabhupāda: Particular.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Conscious.

Śatadhanya: Who permeates that body.

Prabhupāda: And we can experience. There are so many germs within the body.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So when that most conscious jīva leaves the body, then still, the body is made up of those innumerable lives, but whose consciousness developed, that we call a dead matter.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Not dead matter. They come out. As soon as the body is decomposed, they come out. You cannot say that the life-giving substance is gone. It is there. (break) . . . this boy.

Bhakti-caru: No, no. I had a talk with him. He's not really depending on him. I asked him. He said that it's always better to train up . . . to have someone around who's seeing how he is treating.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Why? If he's around, why is it better to have someone else?

Bhakti-caru: He's says that just . . . anyway, he'll come and explain it to you.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I know what he's going to explain. He can't explain anything except that he wants to leave this boy in his place. That's the real point.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I'm saying that the real point is that we don't want this boy to take the place of this kavirāja, which is what the kavirāja is planning.

Bhakti-caru: Yes, right. But the thing is that kavirāja can't stay for more than five days.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's all right, but this is the point, that this boy is not a replacement for this kavirāja. The fact is that Prabhupāda's condition being the way it is, we can't depend on the fact that Prabhupāda will continue to get exactly better as the kavirāja plans.

Bhakti-caru: Then what do you think the alternative should be?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The alternative is that either the kavirāja should stay here, or if we feel this kavirāja is actually giving beneficial help, then we should go with him. But I don't think that we should put ourselves in the hands of this junior man.

Prabhupāda: That is right conclusion.

Bhavānanda: None of us . . . as soon as we saw him, we didn't even like his looks.

Bhakti-caru: But the kavirāja doesn't want that Prabhupāda should move.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then he should stay here if he doesn't want it. What will you do if, supposing after three days after the kavirāja leaves, suddenly Prabhupāda's condition changes in such a way that it wasn't counted on. Then what will be done at that time? Then it means that this junior man suddenly becomes the . . . diagnosis, has to give diagnosis and treatment?

Bhakti-caru: That's the best. I mean if he stays here, then there is nothing . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If he can't stay here, then he should help to take Prabhupāda to Māyāpur. And actually that will make him very responsible, because then he'll see that Prabhupāda is taking risk simply to be under his care. So that will make him feel even more obligated to take proper care of Śrīla Prabhupāda even after going to Māyāpur.

Prabhupāda: This is the right conclusion.

Bhakti-caru: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Kamala rosh niye ashi ekhon? (Shall I bring orange juice now?)

Prabhupāda: Niye esho. (Bring it.) He does not agree. Then?

Bhavānanda: Agree to remain?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. He . . . he'll either agree to remain or else we'll make him agree to take you to Māyāpur. Probably by our refusing to accept this assistant, it will induce him to stay here a little bit longer to prepare you for the journey, and then he'll take you to Māyāpur.

Prabhupāda: Journey, what is the difficulty?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I don't find any difficulty. I didn't find any difficulty one week ago. I'm prepared to take you anywhere in the world, in any condition. I don't think that there's so much difficulty. I see how we're putting you on the palanquin.

Prabhupāda: Bhavānanda?

Bhavānanda: I also agree with Tamāla, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's ten of us: Bhavānanda Mahārāja, Śatadhanya Mahārāja, Upendra, myself, Svarūpa Dāmodara, Jayādvaita, Yadubara, Adri-dhāraṇa, Bhakti-caru and one kavirāja. It is a proper entourage for a king.

Prabhupāda: I am prepared also. How many hours it will take altogether?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: By plane?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It will take three hours to the Delhi airport. Then it will take . . . say, three hours, then one hour before take-off is four hours. Two hours on the flight is six hours, and three hours to Māyāpur, total . . .

Bhavānanda: No. Four hours to Māyāpur, 'cause we'll go slow.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Anyway, within ten hours from this bed to your bed in Māyāpur.

Prabhupāda: Ten hours?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Maximum.

Prabhupāda: How ten hours?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Three hours from here to the Delhi airport. One hour at the Delhi airport makes four hours.

Prabhupāda: No, no. You are going to Delhi airport in three hours. Then?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then one hour waiting for the plane to take off. That's four hours. Two hours for the plane. That's six hours. And three to four hours to go to Māyāpur. Three hours to go to Māyāpur.

Bhavānanda: It always takes four hours.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (to Bhavānanda) But that's four hours from the Calcutta temple, not from Dum Dum. No, I'm telling you, you don't have to go through Calcutta at all.

Bhavānanda: It only takes half an hour to get to the airport, and we'll go slow.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then four hours from the Calcutta airport to Māyāpur. Total of ten hours.

Prabhupāda: Four hours?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, I'm arguing this point with Bhavānanda Mahārāja, but he insists that he knows, so I'm accepting his statement. Three to four hours.

Bhavānanda: Because the road is . . .

Adri-dhāraṇa: Yes, it's not so good now.

Bhavānanda: So if you go too fast, then it's too bumpy. If you go slow, then it's reasonable.

Prabhupāda: So let us go. And keep me in the open air. (pause)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The main thing is that we must present it to the kavirāja that we are depending upon his care. If you actually feel this kavirāja to be good and helpful, then we must present it in such a way that, "We fully depend upon your treatment. Therefore, as you . . . we cannot depend on any other junior man, because there may be complications at any time. Therefore, when you feel Prabhupāda is ready, you take us to Māyāpur. And if your other business in Calcutta is so pressing, then take us now." And in that way he'll be forced to feel responsible, because he'll see that we are going on his account.

Prabhupāda: Talk like that.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. I won't be able to . . . I'll talk, but they'll have to translate. Bhakti-caru has to translate. Or Adri-dhāraṇa.

Bhavānanda: Adri-dhāraṇa.

Adri-dhāraṇa: He said he's now made it his personal problem. He's taking a personal interest.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Adri-dhāraṇa is here. He says the kavirāja is taking it as his personal problem, your health, as his personal interest.

Adri-dhāraṇa: Today he's going to go six hours himself and wait for the medicine to be prepared.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's going to prepare it, I think.

Adri-dhāraṇa: He's going to go and sit and watch it being prepared, six hours, so no mistake is made.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Adri-dhāraṇa Prabhu says that today the kavirāja is going to Mathurā, and he will sit six hours watching the medicine being distilled. He's personally going to watch to see so that there's absolutely no mistake made. This is required.

Bhavānanda: This man is competent.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, I've never . . . I mean, I may not be an expert judge, but I have never seen, in my opinion, anyone who seemed to be this good.

Prabhupāda: No, if we have program to go to Māyāpur, he has got that distilled medicine in his dispensary.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, but one thing is this: the more time we can gain in waiting here, the better. In other words, he's not going to stay here indefinitely. That's a fact. He's going to have to go within the next few days.

Adri-dhāraṇa: He's planning to leave tomorrow. But we can hold him off for two more days.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We can hold him, because, no doubt about it, the few extra days we gain will give you a little added strength. The main thing is that you should be feeling some positive effect from his treatments, because ultimately that is the real deciding factor. Our opinion of him . . . he may be very nice looking, but if the medicine works, that is what counts.

Bhavānanda: Of course, we don't know, but we're all feeling that you're feeling some effect. You told me the other night.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It should be tangibly felt. It should be some actual, tangible result. You should have more strength, sitting up on your own or something of this kind. Then I'll believe that you're actually feeling better, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Because otherwise, psychologically one may feel himself better, but then that should manifest in being able to sit up or something of that kind, turn around in bed on one's own.

Prabhupāda: Do you think I am able to do that?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, I'm encouraging you. I don't know if you can do it. (pause)

Bhakti-caru: Śrīla Prabhupāda, ektu phaler rosh khaben, niye eshechi ami? Uthe boshe khaben? (Śrīla Prabhupāda, will you take some fruit juice that I have brought? Will you sit straight and drink it?)

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Kishe shubhide hobe? (Hmm. Which one is better?)

Bhakti-caru: Uthe boshe khele apni beshi khete paren. (When you sit straight, you can take a greater amount.)

Prabhupāda: Towel ta niye . . . (indistinct) . . . (Bring the towel . . . (indistinct) . . .)

Bhakti-caru: Accha Śrīla Prabhupāda. (Okay Śrīla Prabhupāda.)

Prabhupāda: Now I cannot sit up independently.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Of course, that's a big step to take, but there's things like turning over in bed on one's own. I mean the point is one should not have to force oneself to do this, but those will be the signs of actual improvement.

Bhavānanda: But that will only come from renewal of strength.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, it's not artificial.

Bhavānanda: And renewal of strength will only come from appetite, when you start eating.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, it's not artificial.

Prabhupāda: Eating only juice.

Bhakti-caru: Milk probably.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Juice is for maintaining. It's not for improving the condition. Juice you can maintain one's life, but to actually get strength you have to take something more substantial than juice. Milk is one thing, of course.

Bhakti-caru: Kavirāja is stressing on milk and barley.

Prabhupāda: To milk and barley dao na. (So give milk and barley.)

Bhakti-caru: Ami dicchi na, cough hocche to . . . (indistinct) . . . ajke shokale milk ele. (I am not giving because there is a cough formation . . . (indistinct) . . . after milk comes in the morning today.)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The kavirāja said he had some cough medicine to put in the milk.

Bhakti-caru: Yes. Yes. He gave it to me yesterday. But last night I didn't want to give the milk.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So what about now?

Bhakti-caru: Milk hasn't come. Next I will give. Say after about an hour. Now I will feed him the orange juice and . . .

Bhavānanda: Maybe after parikramā.

Prabhupāda: Ek shonge beshi dile khete. (You have given me too much to drink at the same time.)

Bhakti-caru: Olpo olpo kore debo Śrīla Prabhupāda. (I will give in it small quantities Śrīla Prabhupāda.)

(break) How many plane go from Delhi?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's a . . . Delhi, there's two flights. One is in the morning, and the other one is in the evening. Morning flight is at about six-thirty in the morning, six-forty in the morning, and the evening flight is quite late, about eight o'clock at night. We would want to take the morning flight. (end)