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770705 - Conversation B - Vrndavana

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His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada



770705DC-VRNDAVAN - July 05, 1977 - 62:01 Minutes


(Discussion about Bhu-mandala)



Prabhupāda: So what is the difficulty?

Bhakti-prema: First we are interested to know . . .

Prabhupāda: (aside:) Take from the middle. (break) It is something new?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. This is the first drawing we did. This is Jambūdvīpa. This is Bhārata . . .

Bhakti-prema: This is Bhārata-varṣa, Bhūrloka. Now, this is Himalayan mountain going from east to west. This is India.

Prabhupāda: First thing is, these people, they cannot cross the Himalayan mountain. (aside:) You can turn this light in this way, down. From my practical experience, I have seen Switzerland, it is so high that so many accidents have taken place. Little inattention. They have experience. The plane goes thirty-two thousand feet high. Is it not?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Thirty to forty thousand. Say forty thousand maximum.

Prabhupāda: Still they met with accident. But they are saying that Himalaya is twenty-eight thousand feet high.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Maximum.

Prabhupāda: What is this? First of all answer this. Their everything proposition is wrong. So how we can trust somebody? What is the answer?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We cannot trust them.

Prabhupāda: Then? But if you cannot trust them, they're rejected immediately. This is one argument. Another argument, kūpa-maṇḍuka-nyāya. The frog in the well, he's estimating, "This is the limit of water." What he'll understand about Pacific Ocean, Atlantic Ocean? There is so many things. On the whole we are imperfect, and although imperfect, they want to be perfect. That is cheating. Now for argument's sake, if they put some argument, we have to reply. We have to prepare for them. Otherwise they're useless. We know they're useless, but sometimes they put some argument. We have to give answer. This is the position. And our duty is to present picture of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam correct. So what do you have to say? At least some answer you should give.

Yaśodā-nandana: The biggest problem we are discussing . . . We were thinking that the first question they will ask . . . This is their conception of the world.

Prabhupāda: We reject them.

Yaśodā-nandana: Yes.

Prabhupāda: "You are imperfect. So whatever you have written, that is nonsense. And everywhere problem. Why should we waste our time?" Now just try to settle from point of. He's showing this book; I am showing the Bhāgavatam. So you are imperfect, that's a fact. What is the value of your book? If you are basically a rascal, then what is the value of your book? Why shall I waste my time? First of all I take it and I prove it that you are a rascal. You show your book; I show my book. But you have been proved that you are a rascal. Because practically you cannot cross Himalaya. You have no idea what is the Himalaya. You are giving some conflict.

Bhakti-prema: This . . . we have to reply to this question. They say if we go, we start from Los Angeles and arrive Japan, according to Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . . .

Prabhupāda: Japan and Los Angeles and India, that is not the whole thing.

Bhakti-prema: Yeah, that is not the whole thing, but it is basic point.

Prabhupāda: Huh . . . Insignificant.

Bhakti-prema: According to Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, if we start from Los Angeles . . .

Prabhupāda: That argument also I have refuted. Just like animal, he is bound up. He is rotating around the log, and within that there may be Japan, there may be Calcutta, there may be Los Angeles. You can think this is there. But that is not all. Within that rounding circle, whatever is there, you may think this is all. But that is not all. He's limited condition. So within his limitation (Bengali). Within that limitation he's speaking. But Himalaya and other things—far beyond their limitation. That I have already explained. He's speaking within his limitation. Our position should be, correctly represent what is described in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. But if there is some question, we should ask. Just like I am answering to the reasonable point, that if you are conditioned, within your condition you can see, you can experience, but beyond that you have no right to see. What is Los Angeles, Calcutta, Japan, this is very insignificant space. And they're talking of that. We are talking that Himalaya mountain, "We have crossed over that Himalaya, we conquered the outer space." How they can think of it?

Bhakti-prema: How to take them to Plakṣadvīpa?

Prabhupāda: There is no question of take them. If you take, he's all right. If you don't take, we cannot change.

Bhakti-prema: As long as we cannot show them.

Prabhupāda: First of all you have to prove that you are imperfect.

Bhakti-prema: That has already been proved.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You're simply insisting on things by "probably." "Probably beyond the Himalaya there is something." That is one thing. We say "Definitely, here is. Beyond the Himalayas like this, that." That is the difference. You say "probably," I say "definitely." Father, mother said, "Here is your father." You can say "probably," and mother is saying "definitely." She knows perfectly. You may say probably he may be your father, but mother knows that definitely. Therefore we take Vedas as mother, Purāṇas as sister. Śukadeva Gosvāmī is explaining. Iti śuśruma. But śuśruma, why he should waste his valuable time? He knows it is definite. So unless you come to this standpoint that whatever is spoken in the Vedic literature, that is definite, you cannot be convinced by argument. Tarko 'pratiṣṭhaḥ śrutayo vibhinnā nāsāv ṛṣir yasya mataṁ na bhinnam, mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186). Śukadeva Gosvāmī said—that's all. Mahājano yena. Vaiyāsakiḥ.

svayambhūr nāradaḥ śambhuḥ
kumāraḥ kapilo manuḥ
prahlādo janako bhīṣmo
balir vaiyāsakir vayam
(SB 6.3.20)

These mahājanas. This is our argument. And for commonsense argument, the Himalaya is very, very high. Very, very broad. You have never crossed, and you have met with so many accidents. They avoid that portion, flying plane. And I have seen how high has it gone, then it is in the clouds. Still they say twenty-eight thousand. Huh? Twenty-eight thousand?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Twenty-nine thousand. Twenty-nine thousand.

Prabhupāda: So I conclude like that. When you show this book, accept this authority.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: When we show this book it means we're accepting the authority?

Yaśodā-nandana: Not accepting the authority. The problem is that the Pacific Ocean, according to Jambūdvīpa, for us it is the salt ocean. So the first question that Mahārāja was raising, that they will ask, how do we go between the west coast of America, which is very tiny, and Japan, as they say according to their calculation we go west and we arrive around. And you keep still going further and you arrive back in America. The point about the Himalayas, that we did not raise, because that we could well understood. The Himalayas is much broader and much bigger than they think. We can fully understand it. But that point, from commonsense point of view we couldn't exactly understand. We thought of it all afternoon, and we came up with a few ideas, but we wanted to hear what Your Divine Grace . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Our question was mostly coming out of how to draw what the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is saying. We're not supporting any kind of mundane argument, nor do we have any doubt in Bhāgavatam. We're simply trying to understand the Bhāgavatam.

Prabhupāda: And that is your credit.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's why we were meeting.

Prabhupāda: Where is the difficulty?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, I think that one of the difficulties arose from my seeing this map originally, because in this map it shows the continents that we today speak of as various continents. So when we all looked at this map, our immediate question was, as I said the other day, how do we go from one place to the next? It's not such an unreasonable question. So we're just trying to answer it from the Bhāgavatam—not to give our own speculations, because they're imperfect.

Prabhupāda: That is already answered. You are limited within certain area. So you can conclude in so many ways. Sara bhuri kara, kara bhuri sara.(?) There is a vegetable prepared, the following vegetables are taken: sara, bhuri, and kara. And again you say kara bhuri sara. This way or that way. Sara bhuri kara, kara bhuri sara. That three things, either you take this way consecutively or that way consecutively. But you have got only that kara bhuri sara. You have no experience. There is potato, there is . . . (indistinct) . . . there is . . . (indistinct) . . . You know these three things. Sara bhuri kara. Kara bhuri sara. Bās. Just like they are making arrangement in the laboratory. Companies are there. They present in such a way, that he was flying in the sky, and big sputnik and very small town. Do you know that man came?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Man came and said he could do anything. Make any trick or illusion appear real. You won't have any idea . . .

Prabhupāda: And they have done so in the matter of moon planet. They've never gone there by laboratory arrangement. The Arizona?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Arizona.

Prabhupāda: That's all. That is their business. They might have presented such devices in a book, a different color. Just like medical science. The preparation is nothing, but they'll employ big, big medical students to write in such a way that it will be presented as very important. They are doing this. We have done in Dr. Bose's laboratory. They employ. (speaks garbled words to sound like big words) Go on speaking. (laughter) It sounds very nice. What is the meaning of? (more garbled phrases) So I have got my own common sense. I understand. Everything become . . . (indistinct) . . . in the Vedic literatures.

(indistinct comments by devotees; Tamāla Kṛṣṇa asking Bhakti-prema if he knows how to present this)

Prabhupāda: That I already told. Prejudiced.

Bhakti-prema: . . . (indistinct)

Yaśodā-nandana: I'm not prejudiced. I'm just trying to understand. I'm trying to understand what is the facts according to Bhāgavatam.

Prabhupāda: How you can understand which is beyond your understanding?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He is saying he wants to understand according to the Bhāgavatam.

Yaśodā-nandana: Not we're challenging.

Prabhupāda: That you can describe.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That is what we're having trouble with. We're not trying to do our own thing. We're trying to understand Bhāgavatam. That we're a little stuck on some point.

Prabhupāda: Bhāgavata is there. You try to understand.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We're not siding with the preconceptions that we had before. We'll throw them away. We're trying to accept the Bhāgavatam. We have to do a model, a planetarium. So everything has to be according to the Bhāgavatam.

Prabhupāda: Make it nice. We are going to spend so much money, people may not reject it. (break)

Bhakti-prema: Demons and the demigods . . . (indistinct) . . . churn this ocean, and we are saying we can indicate . . .

Prabhupāda: So who has gone to see the churning . . . (indistinct) . . .?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Just like as we're talking, we're a little . . . Sometimes it's difficult to understand the Bhāgavatam.

Prabhupāda: But I take it simply—that there is ocean, and it was churned. So there is no difficulty.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Mostly we have understood. Only in one place we are a little . . .

Prabhupāda: But nobody has seen that ocean. And nobody can believe that ocean can be churned. Would you believe it? Because it is like that. And the Vāsuki was taken as rope.

Bhakti-prema: And this Mandara mountain, fifty thousand miles high, was taken there, carried by.

Prabhupāda: And it was born by tortoise incarnation.

Bhakti-prema: This is combined with description.

Prabhupāda: Acintyāḥ khalu ye bhāvā na tāṁs tarkeṇa yojayet (Mahābhārata, Bhīṣma-parva 5.22). What is beyond your conception, don't try to . . . So that is Vedic civilization. They were satisfied with information received from the Vedas.

Bhakti-prema: The first and last thing we have to prove logically is this: the earth . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no. Logically you cannot. Acintya. Logic comes when it is conceivable; but it is inconceivable. Where is your logic?

Bhakti-prema: But first to prove them in right understanding we have to bring them.

Prabhupāda: It is very difficult. Acintya.

Yaśodā-nandana: But such a thing as going from one place to the other on earth, they'll say this is cintya, this is conceivable.

Prabhupāda: Argument is there when it is conceivable. It is inconceivable. Kṛṣṇa lifted Govardhana, seven years old, six years old. How it is conceivable? But devotees, they are crying, "Oh, Giri-vara-dhārī." And the Māyāvādīs, they say kalpanāyā. The Akhandānanda said. And Śukadeva Gosvāmī is narrating something kalpanāyā and wasting his time?

Bhakti-prema: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: This is acintya for the Māyāvādīs. They say kalpanāyā. These Akhandānanda and other Māyāvādīs, they explain Bhāgavata—kalpanāyā. They are making some imagination that "I am God," but they are alleging us that "You are in illusion." God, as soon as there is some toothache, he goes to the doctor. He's such a rascal hypocrite. There was some heart attack going on, so Akhandānanda, immediately he called one of his chief disciples, that Mishra, Jasri, and he was taken to Bombay hospital. And he's God.

Bhakti-prema: He's expired?

Prabhupāda: Expired? No, no. He's living. But talking all nonsense, reading Bhāgavatam, and hundreds of people go to the āśrama.

Bhakti-prema: Today we were discussing . . .

Prabhupāda: That difference of opinion will continue. You cannot stop.

Bhakti-prema: What we were discussing, this Pacific Ocean is saltwater . . .

Prabhupāda: Why you are trying to adjust Pacific Ocean? Pacific Ocean, any ocean, it is just like kūpa-maṇḍūka. It is very big for you, because you are a very teeny identity. But take the universe—what is the Pacific? Is it not a drop. There are so many Pacific Oceans floating in the sky. Everything is acintya. Yasyaika-niśvasita-kālam athāvalambya jīvanti loma-vilajā jagad-aṇḍa-nāthāḥ (BS 5.48). This is acintya. So acintyāḥ khalu ye bhāvā na tāṁs tarkeṇa yojayet (Mahābhārata, Bhīṣma-parva 5.22). You cannot make an experiment or see it. But take some information from the authority and be satisfied. With your limited knowledge, if you want to bring it to experiment, that is not possible. That is not possible.

Bhakti-prema: If this is the background I can give a lot of material. But they want logics.

Prabhupāda: Where is the logic?

Yaśodā-nandana: I don't want any logic. The scientists will come to the planetarium and ask . . .

Prabhupāda: How they can? Scientist is rascal. That is proved. They are insisting that chemical can produce life. He's a rascal. They have gone to moon planet. That's a rascal. So what is the value of so-called scientist. Why should we give any importance? I'm not giving any importance. If you become scientist, that so much ghee and so much āṭā makes purī, and we can eat very nicely, all right, you are a scientist. But so much chemicals, make it life—prove that. The confectioner is also scientist. He knows very well how to do his business. A carpenter is also scientist. Here is some work nice done by the carpenter. I cannot do it. You may be a great scientist, but me? It is not possible for me to do a carpentry work. In this way it is going on. (Bengali) You have learned something, you can do it very nicely. But I cannot do it. For me it will be beating by the rod if I am given this work. I can translate, my work. That's all right. So everyone is scientist, his own field of activities, to some extent. You cannot make everyone agree. That is not . . . Vox populi you cannot. That is not possible. What is that vox populi?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: General population.

Prabhupāda: Mohitaṁ nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam (BG 7.13). So what is the value of vox populi? I concluded. Munayāḥ sādhu pṛṣṭo 'ham. Huh? What is that? Munayāḥ sādhu pṛṣṭo 'ham (SB 1.2.5). Loka-maṅgalam. Yenātmā suprasīdati. So Kṛṣṇa's childhood pastime, enjoyed by Mother Yaśodā, others will think, "What is this nonsense? Kṛṣṇa is breaking the butter pot and it is taken as sublime?" They'll think like that.

Bhakti-prema: Kṛṣṇa opened His mouth, His Mother Yaśodā saw all this universe . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: And first of all she became surprised. And next moment, "Whatever it is, my dear Kṛṣṇa, You come on my lap." That's all. So it is not for all.

Bhakti-prema: Therefore we should name it Esoteric Geography.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Bhakti-prema: We can name it Esoteric Geography

Prabhupāda: Journal?

Bhakti-prema: Esoteric.

Prabhupāda: Yes, esoteric I know. Journal?

Bhakti-prema: Geography . . . (indistinct) . . . qualification.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Esoteric and exoteric. But one thing is that it is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss. If you think that ignorance is bliss, then why should we waste our time and money?

Yaśodā-nandana: Prabhupāda, what is the shape of this tiny portion of earth or whatever place we are on? What is the shape of this, whatever you call . . .

Prabhupāda: Ask them. Why don't you ask them? Sometimes they say flat, sometimes they say it is round. Why don't you ask them, the scientists?

Yaśodā-nandana: We don't accept what they say.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Formerly they were under the impression the world is flat. And now they are saying round. So what they'll say after few years?

Yaśodā-nandana: They are not consistent. That's a fact. They're very inconsistent in their theories.

Prabhupāda: Ask them which is correct. "Probably" this is correct. Yes.

Bhakti-prema: When someone asks this question, first one would reply.

Prabhupāda: I answered it. You people say like that, so which is correct? Flat or round?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They will say, "What does the Bhāgavatam say?"

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They may reply to us, "All right, we are rascals. So please tell us what is the fact."

Prabhupāda: That is, we are . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's what he's asking. What should be shown? Actually we're a little stumped by . . . I mean . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, you must have proper answer as far as possible.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We just read . . . We got a version from South India, and we've even found that there are different conceptions of what the Bhāgavatam is saying. But the Purāṇas, they give some Purāṇic references.

Bhakti-prema: It is written the world . . . The earth is round and flat.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Bhakti-prema: Earth is round and flat both, together.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bhakti-prema: First we should . . . We can reply it is acintya. This should be the reply. "Inconceivable."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then why are we showing them . . .

Yaśodā-nandana: If it is inconceivable, then they will say, "How we can conceive it?"

Prabhupāda: Take the version of Bhāgavatam.

Bhakti-prema: Everything we conceived, that is wrong?

Prabhupāda: Everything you conceived, that is wrong.

Bhakti-prema: Yes. Very good point.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore inconceivable.

Bhakti-prema: The Lord is inconceivable always and any . . . (indistinct) . . . it is inconceivable.

Prabhupāda: But we have to accept śāstra.

Bhakti-prema: This outer structure of the Lord is one with the Lord. It is inconceivable; it is not conceivable. Very good. It is human . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Acintya-guṇa-svarūpam. Acintya-guṇa-svarūpam. Yaṁ śyāmasundaram acintya-guṇa. Acintya. Govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi (Brahma-saṁhitā 5.38). Acintya.

Bhakti-prema: (indistinct conversation with devotees)

Prabhupāda: Give me that pineapple juice. (Bengali) (break)

Bhakti-prema: If it is inconceivable, then don't try to . . .

Prabhupāda: We are not lying to you.

Bhakti-prema: . . . draw.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We're drawing according to the Bhāgavatam.

Prabhupāda: We're not conceiving it. It is already there.

Bhakti-prema: Then it is conceived, he says.

Prabhupāda: Conceived not by me.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But not by us. By the Unlimited.

Prabhupāda: I am imperfect. That is the difference.

Bhakti-prema: Yes. It is conceivable by you.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: By Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: By Śukadeva . . . Not even Śukadeva Gosvāmī. He says śuśruma.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "I heard."

Prabhupāda: Janmādy asya yataḥ anvayād itarataś cārtheṣu abhijñaḥ svarāṭ tene brahma hṛdā (SB 1.1.1). Brahma hṛdā. This is Brahmā. Ādi-kavaye. The Brahmā is very significant. Ādi-kavaye. So it is coming that way.

Bhakti-prema: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bhakti-prema: Scholars.

Prabhupāda: This is their . . . Apauruṣeyam. Actually India's culture is going on that way. Mass of people, they are going to Prayāga for taking bath. What do they know? They have received it from authorities that if you take bath in such and such place . . . Ah, lakhs of people will go. That is Indian culture. Without any advertisement, without any means, walking hundreds of miles they are coming. Yes, that is their culture. And the government is perturbed that people are so prejudiced. So how to make them forget? This is going on. But they don't listen. They just, "If I take bath I'll . . ." That is the difference between Western and Eastern. And as soon as there is interpretation, it is Māyāvāda. And Caitanya Mahāprabhu has rejected—māyāvādi-bhāṣya śunile haya sarva-nāśa (CC Madhya 6.169). You see in the Kumbha-melā how peacefully they are sitting. They are accepting Vedic culture. So nice atmosphere. Simply by going there you'll be satisfied. That is the difference between East and West.

manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu
kaścid yatati siddhaye
yatatām api siddhānāṁ
kaścin vetti māṁ . . .
(BG 7.3)

Therefore tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā (BG 4.34). There is no other. Submissive. (break) . . .guru. Tasyaite kathitā hy arthāḥ prakāśante. The authority is revealed to him. Yasya deve parā bhaktir yathā deve (ŚU 6.23). Otherwise not. So do it as far as possible to your capacities. But things are inconceivable. You cannot adjust within the limitation of your understanding. That is not . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, that's the . . . We're trying to impose some preconceived idea onto this. As soon as that happens, this knowledge is blocked. Because the whole attitude shouldn't be like that. One should come out of service and devotion, not with some mental, materialistic speculations.

Prabhupāda: Did you know that story, the Nārada was going to Vaikuṇṭha? Nārada came back and replied to a cobbler . . . Cobbler asked him what Nārāyaṇa is doing. "He has taken one elephant and He's drawing through the hole of a needle like this and again taking." The learned brāhmaṇa, he began to laugh: "These are all stories." And the cobbler began to cry, "Oh, Nārāyaṇa, Kṛṣṇa, can do anything." Nārada inquired, "How do you believe that elephant is being drawn through the hole of needle?" "No, why not? I'm daily seeing by sitting under this tree, banyan tree, and within a fruit there are thousands of seeds. And each seed contains the big tree." Can the scientists make such small seed contain a big banyan tree? So it is acintya. That's a fact. (break) . . .thing is inconceivable. And these rascals want to bring them as conceivable. He's conditioned, and he's trying to bring inconceivable thing to his conception. Useless, futile attempt. How the scientist will answer? We take a fruit. There are hundreds of seeds, and each seed contains a big tree. How you can explain? Is it not inconceivable?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So what is the use of arguing?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's better to take the fruit and offer it to Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: That's right.

Bhakti-prema: (indistinct conversation with Tamāla Kṛṣṇa)

Prabhupāda: So we take it as accepted, mahā-muni kṛte. Dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra paramo nirmatsarāṇāṁ satām (SB 1.1.2).

Bhakti-prema: Vedyaṁ vāstavam atra vastu śivadaṁ tāpa-trayonmūlanam, śrīmad-bhāgavate mahā-muni-kṛte kiṁ vā parair īśvaraḥ sadyo hṛdy avarudhyate 'tra kṛtibhiḥ śuśrūṣubhis tat-kṣaṇāt (SB 1.1.2).

Prabhupāda: Śuśrūṣubhis tat-kṣaṇāt. There is no other way.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is a very good lesson, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: You do not require to be puffed up with your so-called education. It has no value. (pause) Hmm. Is that all right?

Devotees: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end).