770601 - Conversation - Vrndavana
(Discussions with Devotees and Conversation with Dr. Ghosh)
Prabhupāda: So our temple is also.
Yaśodānandana: Yes, that is very good.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: In future I think that we can invite scholars even from the West, just like from the United States. Sometimes they have these departments called . . .
Prabhupāda: We have brain. We are not afraid of anything . . .
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Jaya.
Prabhupāda: . . . that we are preaching something which not acceptable by scientists or philosophers. He must have to accept.
Bhavānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, Bhakti-prema Mahārāja is not here now. He's gone out.
Yaśodānandana: There was a discussion today that in some time, after this preaching to the scientists starts, if we get exposed, it will be a very, very big world news item, especially with jagat theory of the universe, to explain how all the planets are exactly together, how life comes from life. It will be a very shocking news to the whole scientific world. They have so many misconceptions which are simply due to ignorance.
Prabhupāda: They are simply making false propaganda to keep their prestige. Useless. Now here is a scientist. He'll confirm it. What do you think?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Er . . . I think it's going to be very interesting. We are very prepared for it, and it will be a very challenging, challenging field, if all the scientists and all over . . .
Prabhupāda: We have got some background. They have no background.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, we have Bhagavad-gītā and Prabhupāda, Kṛṣṇa. So we are very prominent.
Prabhupāda: But they have no background. They are simply speculating. In the first place they have no background. Child. Doesn't know what . . . do you think they are knowing?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: I saw just little hint. I met an Indian physicist in Emory University. He's quite well known physicist, and he actually liked the idea that we wrote on. He said it's very genuine and very scientific. We have developed this the laws of consciousness from tying ātmā and Paramātmā. The Paramātmā, we say, is the source of all these laws of nature.
Prabhupāda: That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca (BG 15.15). Jaya. (Somebody entered) Jaya. Dekho, e sab program banana hai, inse baat chit karo. (See we have to prepare for this program, you please talk with him regarding that.) Or if you like, you can travel with him, but your translation must be main work. If you like, you can go to the foreign countries along with him . . . (indistinct) . . . Ye program jo banana hai, ekdum karo. . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . (This program needs to be arranged, do it nicely.)
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. I suggested to Dr. Sharma that first of all we hold that conference in Vṛndāvana and come here. So we can announce some nice topics, so he can also speak. And we can invite some scholars. They can also speak. We can have open discussion, exchange of ideas and philosophy, so that we expose Kṛṣṇa consciousness on this scale. So Prabhupāda wants that Bhaktivedanta Institute is also here in Vṛndāvana along with the Bhaktivedanta Gurukula, an institute for higher studies, and there be one office in the new gurukula building so that . . .
Prabhupāda: No, I request you all that you keep this building always busy with some conference, with some meeting, with some . . . it shouldn't remain vacant. And for expenditure, I shall arrange. There is no want.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: And we'll try to attract more Ph.D.s.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: As soon as we go out and preach, I think we can get . . .
Prabhupāda: Bulao sab bare bare Ph.D logo ko, keya tumhare . . . (indistinct) . . . aise pucho. Science me man hai, tum vedic literature mere pas hai, sab le kar ke karao. Keya lagta hai? Aao tumhara keya bolna hai. Idhar raho, idhar charcha karo, suno, upakar karo, un logo ko gyan do. Saraswati . . . (indistinct) . . . humara Bharat varsa me itni bari gyan hai, isko gyan ho khal ho karke chupate rahe. To program karao. (Call all your those big big Ph.D people and ask what is your . . . (indistinct) . . . your mind is science oriented, I have vedic literature with me, you utilize everything and do it. What do you think? Come and say what you want to say. Stay here and discuss, listen, do what will be beneficial to them, give them knowledge. Saraswati . . . (indistinct) . . . (sanskrit sloka), Godess Saraswati . . . our Bharat Varsa is a storehouse of knowledge. They try to hide this knowledge saying all these to be fake knowledge. So do this program.) You are all qualified. I can give you ideas. Now I am doing. So I wanted to see that you are all busy. That I want. Because now I am becoming invalid. I cannot move very swiftly here and there. But if you move, I . . . I take pleasure. There is a Bengali proverb, napar ji mane naat jamai bharta. A old lady, so she has lost her husband. She cannot joke. (chuckles) Husband, wife, they exchange some joking word. So with whom she will joke? Then, then the grandson-in-law, grandson . . . so in our society, Bengal, the grandson-in-law . . . I have got experience also. When I was newly married grandson-in-law, so my grandmother-in-law was joking with me like anything, more than husband. (laughter) And granddaughter-in-law. So we sit down and she talks very openly everything. We remember that. Because she was enjoying. By talking like that, free, with granddaughter and grandson-in-law, she was enjoying. And we were also enjoying. So my position is like that. I cannot move now very swiftly here and there, becoming invalid. So if I see that you are doing these things, that will give me pleasure. Yes. Granddaughter-in-law.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: I also found that in Boston, the Indian communities, they are very interested in this program.
Prabhupāda: Must be. Everyone should be. This is the genuine program. So sob somoy (always), talk and make program. . . . (indistinct) . . . Ek kaam tumhara zaroor chalega . . . (indistinct) . . . (. . . (indistinct) . . . one of your jobs will surely continue . . . (indistinct) . . .)
Dr. Sharma: That is disease. It has become now plague . . . (indistinct) . . . on the street.
Prabhupāda: Both of you are very intelligent boys. I want to see that you are always busy in these affairs. Jaga hai hamare pas. Wo paisa ka kuch kami hani hai. Bhagawan sab de dega. Karo, aap barao . . . (indistinct) . . . (We have a place. There is no scarcity of money also. God will arrange for everything. You just do it, expand it . . . (indistinct) . . .) Haa. Bhaktivedanta Gurukula and Institute for Higher Studies. Ye naam kara hai. (Have kept this name.)
Devotee: For higher studies.
Prabhupāda: Thik hai . . . (indistinct) . . . (That's alright . . . (indistinct) . . .) I want to see that you are always busy. Busy-ness. That will give me pleasure. Laziness I don't want. Personally I was never lazy. I did not like laziness.
Dr. Sharma: Isme aap . . . (indistinct) . . . (In this you . . . (indistinct) . . .)
Dr. Sharma: We create in our mind problems.
Prabhupāda: Because sometimes I become morose that I became lazy, so therefore, if I see you busy, this moroseness will reduce. When I see that you are working and the whole thing is busy, oh, that gives me pleasure. Yes
Svarūpa Dāmodara: We're also thinking of writing some books for children, for gurukula.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: For the Bhaktivedanta Institute.
Prabhupāda: Write. That's a very good idea. Khub kitab chapao, khub paro aur padao, ehi to hum chate hai. (Publish book in great numbers, read profusely and teach, this is what I desire.) This is real life. You are all qualified to do this. Idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā (SB 1.5.22). Itna sab vidwan hua hai usko bhi utilize karo. Bidya to . . . (indistinct) . . . gyana khalau ho gaya . . . (indistinct) . . . usko vikas karo . . . (indistinct) . . . (There are so many learned people, utilize them. Knowledge is . . . (indistinct) . . . knowledge has become faulty . . . (indistinct) . . . you develop those . . . (indistinct) . . .)
Yaśodānandana: Śrīla Prabhupāda, this morning, as soon as the children heard that this name was going to be changed and it was going to be that, many of them became eager: "How I can be trained also to know these things?" The children are already very eager to understand all these . . .
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.
Yaśodānandana: . . . the scientific approach.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Wo utilise karo, itna kamre hai sab. (Utilize those, so many rooms are there.)
Dr. Sharma: Plus it should be nice.
Prabhupāda: It is already.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: I'm going to have to look tomorrow and . . .
Prabhupāda: Hmm. You can see, both, and select which room for which quarter. Big, big room . . . (indistinct) . . . Khao, peo, prachar karo. (. . . (indistinct) . . . eat, drink and preach.)
Dr. Sharma: That . . . (indistinct) . . . he's very nice . . . (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: He is very intelligent.
Dr. Sharma: . . . (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: He's organizing this, that Poland, communist country. He has accepted hard knock. And knocking. To program sab banao, khub karo . . . (indistinct) . . . how do you denying the same? Thik . . . (indistinct) (So make all such programs, many such programs . . . (indistinct) . . . how can you deny the same? That's alright . . . (indistinct) . . .)
Bhavānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, would you like to go upstairs now? Would you like to go up to the roof now?
Prabhupāda: I have no objection. Thik hai. Jo hota hai, kuch karo. (Okay. Whatever it takes, do something.) You are all able.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: (aside) Yeah, tomorrow I'll go and see everything.
Prabhupāda: Le aao sab bare bare scholer ko leke aao. Jo hamare paas bidwan hai, wo scholer . . . (indistinct) . . . jisme wo Raban ka ladka ka nam keya hai? Indrajit? Meghnad. Wo, unki patni ladai karti thi . . . wo challange karti thi. Raban hamara swasur hai, aur Meghnad hamara husband hai, hum ye bhik mangne wala Ram se dar jayenge? (laughter) Rabon hamara swasur hai aur Meghnad hamara husband hai, ye bhik mangne wale se keya darna? Rabon to swosur aur Meghnad swami, ami ki dorai ei bhikari Raghobe (laughter) (Bring all your big scholars. We have people with knowledge, that scholar . . . (indistinct) . . . what was the name of Raban's son? Indrajit? Meghnad. His wife was a fighter . . . she used to challenge. Ravan is my father-in-law and Meghnad is my husband, why should I be afraid of that beggar Ram? (laughter) Ravan is my father-in-law and Meghnad is my husband, who cares for these beggars? Ravan father-in-law and Meghnad husband, should I be afraid of beggar Raghava? (laughter))
Dr. Sharma: Raban ki, unko Ram . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughter) (About Ravan, Ram was . . . (indistinct) . . .) (laughter)
Prabhupāda: So? No, I shall go. Utsāhād dhairyāt tat-tat-karma-pravartanāt, sato vṛtteḥ sādhu . . . ṣaḍbhir bhaktiḥ prasidhyati. (break)
Ādi-keśava: In your Bhagavad-gītā you explain that to the materialist, he is subject to fear, anger and attachment.
Ādi-keśava: So when someone becomes angry, that anger is frustration due to the fact that he experiences so many frustrations in the material world, and therefore he calls it void. He says: "Rather than experience the difficulties inherent in the temporality of the material world, instead he calls it void and says that it does not exist." Because it is causing so much distress because he cannot become satisfied in material existence, then he says . . .
Prabhupāda: Whether it has got any value? Whether such statement has any value?
Harikeśa: Whether such statement has any value?
Ādi-keśava: To say that it has no existence, that it is all void?
Prabhupāda: One, you . . . talk on this point. Just like a small animal, rabbit. When he's attacked, he closes the eyes. He thinks, "There is nothing." Now he is devoured. So it is like that. He cannot adjust things, and "That is zero, bās." But that's not the fact. Hmm? Simply by closing your eyes you want to avoid danger? Discuss on this.
Bhakti-prema: When we generalize our senses inwards, it becomes inert. When we go beyond body and senses it becomes inert. But we have to penetrate deep into that state of consciousness, and it can be possible only through Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Prabhupāda: Svarūpa Dāmodara? You also.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: When the goal and the meaning of life is not understood, then people take it as void. So that means life is full of meaning and full of purpose, and it is also a goal, but when that meaning is not understood . . . that is actually the scientific philosophy, that it is all void because there is no meaning and there is no purpose. That is what the . . . especially in the Western scientists, that is the current thought, that, the complete material philosophy. But when one changes that concept by developing proper consciousness, it just becomes the opposite. That means life is full of . . .
Prabhupāda: (aside) Give me . . . what fruit you have?
Kīrtanānanda: Orange. Orange.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: When this philosophy is reversed, then life becomes full of meaning and full of purpose. Actually that is a fact. We give value to life. That's why we go to the . . . we send our children for higher studies and we develop so many political and social and ethical and moral problems. That means there is purpose in life. So life is not void. But somehow, when one misses that point, he just comes to that point. But that's not a fact. So it has to be understood that there is . . . life is full of meaning and full of purpose, and there is a goal behind it. That purpose is to develop spiritual consciousness, to develop the science of ātmā called ātma-jñāna, the science of the self, and becomes . . . life becomes meaningful.
Prabhupāda: That is the statement in Bhāgavata: apaśyatām ātma-tattvaṁ gṛheṣu gṛha-medhinām (SB 2.1.2). Gṛheṣu gṛha-medhinām, they dismiss the case because apaśyatām ātma-tattvam. Just like thieves, "Eh! What is government? What is government? Let us enjoy." That's not the fact. So we have to put all these questions before learned scholars and ask them to make a solution . . . (indistinct) . . . why zero?
Harikeśa: In other words, no matter what they come up with, what ideas they come up with, what knowledge they have, it's of no value because it doesn't . . .
Prabhupāda: Their knowledge has no value. That is our first charge.
Harikeśa: It has no value because it doesn't do anything of any value . . .
Prabhupāda: There is no conclusion. Zero. Zero? For zero why there are so many varieties? Wherefrom the varieties came?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: We can show that their thinking is wrong completely.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the fact.
Harikeśa: And that all their speculations simply end up in their own death. And at that point they have no idea what will happen next. But they have to take another body. Although they may try to say . . .
Prabhupāda: They are taking. That example is already there. He finishes his childhood; he accepts boyhood. Why he has left childhood? Finish childhood. Finish. That's all. Why again bother?
Harikeśa: Force of time.
Prabhupāda: That means he is under the control of something higher, but he refutes, tries to avoid it. That cannot be avoided. A child must become a boy. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13).
Harikeśa: But the worst thing is that not only are they causing themselves trouble, but they cause it upon everyone else.
Prabhupāda: That is natural. Causing everyone else means the same group. Andhā yathāndhaiḥ. One who is blind, he can be cheated by another blind man. But one who is not blind, if the blind man wants to cheat him that, "I can help you crossing the room," he will laugh, that, "This rascal is blind, and he has offered me to help me." We take this, that if a person is . . . we know that he is defective, his knowledge is imperfect, what knowledge he will give? Immediately reject him.
Harikeśa: He can give us knowledge on how to accelerate death.
Harikeśa: He can give good knowledge on how to accelerate death.
Prabhupāda: That is natural. There is no question of his accelerating. It is already going on in this world. (pause) So many things we have to discuss. Is it not? People are in darkness in so many ways. Therefore we have to take the standard knowledge.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Always comes to the . . .
Prabhupāda: (aside) Little cold water. And our mission is to deliver them by giving knowledge. Āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra' ei deśa (CC Madhya 7.128). Our mission is not to keep men in darkness. Otherwise, "Let them go to hell, śūnyavādi. We don't . . ." No. They should not remain in that way. They should come to the real light. This is our policy. (pause)
Bhakti-caru: Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Bhakti-caru: Nārāyaṇa Mahārājer songe kotha holo. Uni kalke asben. Aar uni bollen je, kono osubidha nei, sompurno bhabe raji achen. Aar onar anubad kora "Jaiba Dharma" aar "Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu" ei duto boi apnake diechen. To ami ekta hot water bag apnar jonne nea eschi. (I had a talk with Nārāyaṇa Mahārāja. He will come tomorrow. He said he has no problem, he totally agreed. He has given you these two books translated by him named "Jaiba Dharma" and "Sri Caitanya Mahāprabhu". Also I have brought a hot water bag for you.) (offers obeisances and leaves)
Harikeśa: When we finish this description, our understanding of this description of the universe, and present it to the scientists and to the world, people will become astounded. (aside) Huh?
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) (indistinct) . . . what is that jīva-bhūta? They are living entities. What is that jīva-bhūta? Jīva-bhūtāṁ mahā-bā . . . yayedaṁ dhāryate jagat. Without that these jīva-bhūta, these material elements are developed? Where is that? Find out this verse.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: In Gītā?
Prabhupāda: Read it.
- apareyam itas tv anyāṁ
- prakṛtiṁ viddhi me parām
- jīva-bhūtāṁ mahā-bāho
- yayedaṁ dhāryate jagat
- (BG 7.5)
"Besides this inferior energy, O mighty-armed Arjuna, there is a superior energy of Mine, which are all living entities, who are struggling with material nature and are sustaining the universe." Purport?
Jagadīśa: "Here it is clearly mentioned that living entities belong to the superior nature (or energy) of the Supreme Lord. The inferior energy is matter manifested in different elements, namely earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, intelligence and false ego. Both forms of material nature, namely gross (earth, etc.) and subtle (mind, etc.), are products of the inferior energy. The living entities, who are exploiting these inferior energies for different purposes, are the superior energy of the Supreme Lord, and it is due to this energy that the entire material world functions. The cosmic manifestation has no power to act unless it is moved by the superior energy, the living entity. Energies are always controlled by the energetic, and therefore living entities are always controlled by the Lord—they have no independent existence. They are never equally powerful, as unintelligent men think. The distinction between the living entities and the Lord is described in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam as follows (SB 10.87.30):
- aparimitā dhruvās tanubhṛto yadi sarva-gatās
- tarhiṁ na śāsyateti niyamo dhruva netarathā
- ajani ca yanmayaṁ tad . . . (break)
Dr. Ghosh: Ete apnar kichu korar nei. (You have nothing to do with this.)
Prabhupāda: Sei bhalo. . . . (indistinct) . . . thik achhe. (That's better . . . (indistinct) . . . that's all right.) . . . (indistinct)
Dr. Ghosh: Apnar jonne sob toiri. Ektu bhalo hole apnake nea jabo. (Everything is ready for you. When you will become little better, will take you there.)
Prabhupāda: Ha . . . (indistinct) . . . (Okay . . . (indistinct) . . .)
Dr. Ghosh: Prabhupāda gramam . . . sob toiri. (Prabhupāda Village . . . everything is ready there.)
Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct)
Bhavānanda: Fruit juice and sabjī, so much of . . .
Dr. Ghosh: But you'll get your pomegranates? I'll get it.
Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct)
Bhakti-caru: Ha ami dichhilam ota. Majhe majhe dichhi ota . . . (indistinct) . . . ros kore. (Yes I was giving him that. Giving it occasionally . . . (indistinct) . . . making juice.)
Dr. Ghosh: Apni ki Upendra naki? (Are you Upendra?)
Bhakti-caru: Na. Amar naam . . . Upendra ei je. (No. My name is . . . here is Upendra.)
Dr. Ghosh: Eke seba koren apni? (Are you the one who is serving him?) You take care of him?
Upendra: Massage. He's cooking.
Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) . . . ekti chele eseche, se apnar moton field e ache. ( . . . (indistinct) . . . one boy has come, he is from the same field as yours.)
Dr. Ghosh: Ha. Apni to . . . amar to hiseb moton apni kal theke bhalo hote arombho hoyechen. Ajke ektu bhalo achen. Kal eke, khub bhalo thakben. Apnar kono bhoi nei. Onno rokom achen. Sudhu apnar ektu pechhap amar dorkar. Aar . . . (indistinct) . . . aar apnader gomutro. Gomutro ache na, kaloo gai er mutro? (Yes. You . . . as per my calculation, your health improvement started yesterday. Today you are doing a little better. From tomorrow, you will be much better. You have nothing to worry. You are appearing a little different. I just need some urine samples from you. And . . . (indistinct) . . . cow urine. Don't you have cow urine, urine from a black cow?)
Devotee: What do you need?
Dr. Ghosh: Ajkal daktar ra, sob jaigai, prithibite sorbotro . . . (indistinct) . . . apni uthe darale . . . (indistinct) . . . chirokal thakbe. (Nowadays everywhere, all over the world, doctors are . . . (indistinct) . . . when you will be cured . . . (indistinct) . . . it will be forever.)
Prabhupāda: Liver er . . . (About the liver . . .)
Dr. Ghosh: Haa? (Yes?)
Prabhupāda: Liver er . . . (About the liver . . .)
Dr. Ghosh: Kalo goru hole bhalo. (Better if it's from a black cow.)
Prabhupāda: We have cows. Black cows?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We have black cows. Sabitri.
Prabhupāda: Achhe! Tar mutro. (Oh, we have! Urine from that cow is required.)
Dr. Ghosh: (indistinct) . . . Pechoner dike kichu . . . (indistinct) . . . (In the back side something . . . (indistinct) . . .)
Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct)
Dr. Ghosh: Apnar ei osudh pochondo to? (Do you like this medicine?)
Prabhupāda: Ha? (Yes?)
Dr. Ghosh: (laughter) . . . (indistinct) . . . Ami songe, khub bhalo koto guno. Apnake prothomoto khide. Khider jonne ebar . . . (indistinct) . . . Ghontai ghontai ektukhani modhu aar ektukhani oi lebu. Khide hobe. Pete apnar . . . (indistinct) . . . oh apni . . . kono bhoi nei . . . (indistinct) . . . Dhar korjo kore ekta gram toiri korbo aar apni asben baas. Amake chobar kore khatalen gadhar moto. ( . . . (indistinct) . . . I am having some very good quality. Your first thing is appetite. For your appetite . . . (indistinct) . . . on every hour, a little bit of honey and a little bit of lemon. You will feel hungry. In your belly . . . (indistinct) . . . oh you . . . Don't be afraid . . . (indistinct) . . . I am arranging money by taking loans and making a village, you simply have to come there once. You have made me worked hard for quite a few times.)
Prabhupāda: Kal ektu acid hoyechilo. (Yesterday I had a little problem due to acidity.)
Dr. Ghosh: Gadhar moton khatchi. Tra moddhhe ekta noi duto noi, dusho lok khatche. Apni ele por apnake ghire . . . (indistinct) . . . (I'm working like an ass. And moreover, not just one or two, two hundred people are also working. Once you go there, we will surround you . . . (indistinct) . . .)
Prabhupāda: Nea cholun to. (You take me there.)
Dr. Ghosh: Ha ami nea jabo. Apnar jonne sob toiri aar apni eibhabe, Bah! (Yes I will take you there. Everything is ready for you and you have become sick, how could that be!)
Prabhupāda: Ami kikore jabo ekhon. (How can I go under such a situation.)
Dr. Ghosh: Ha jaben, apnake . . .(indistinct) . . . (chuckles) (Yes you will go, for you . . . (indistinct) . . .) (chuckles)
Prabhupāda: Ami to Bombay obdhi geachi. (I traveled until Bombay.)
Dr. Ghosh: Bombay ekta . . . sorire jor baran to. Bolun rakhe kesto mare ke! I'm sorry, he wants to be . . . (indistinct) . . . (Bombay is a . . . try to increase your bodily strength. Keep in mind, if Krishna wants to save someone who can kill him! I'm sorry, he wants to be . . . (indistinct) . . .)
Bhavānanda: Little bit.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very little.
Dr. Ghosh: Kono bhoy nei. Sob thik ache. (Nothing to fear. Everything is alright.)
Prabhupāda: He said there is no fear. Everything is . . . (indistinct)
Dr. Ghosh: Tomorrow morning . . . (indistinct) . . . I want, to get him into . . . (indistinct) . . . doctor . . . (break) (end)