770511 - Conversation - Hrishikesh
Prabhupāda: (Hindi) (Hindi conversation) (break)
German man (1): Germany.
German man (1): Germany.
English man: England.
German man (1): In German.
Prabhupāda: I went to Hamburg.
German man (1): In Hamburg. In Batche Schlossen(?)?
German devotee (3): (German)
German man (1): (German) The very beginning center was in the Batche Schlossen(?), Batche(?) Street, a very small temple. And then it changed to bigger and . . . in Hamburg.
Prabhupāda: There is tramways.
German man (1): (German) I left Phalia(?) four years here and become a national . . . (indistinct) . . . (conversation with German devotee) (break)
Prabhupāda: . . . here?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Why did you come to India?
German man (1): For . . . for spiritual purpose.
German man (1): Sādhana, tapasya.
Prabhupāda: And what is the aim of tapasya?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What is the aim of tapasya?
German man (1): The aim of tapasya?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The goal.
German man (1): To see how is the one in the many.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: To see the one in the many.
Prabhupāda: Very good. And what is that one?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda asked, "What is that one?"
German man (1): The one is this part in you and me which is together, and the many are you and me and him and we all.
Prabhupāda: No, what is that one?
German man (1): That one? It's difficult to put it into name.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He said, "It's difficult to put it into name."
Prabhupāda: That means you have not found that one.
German man (1): Properly. That is why I came to you.
Prabhupāda: You could not find that one.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He said that's why he came to you.
Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate (BG 10.8). In the Bhagavad-gītā find out.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (aside:) Hand me the . . .
Prabhupāda: If you cannot find it, hand it to Tamāla.
- ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo
- mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate
- iti matvā bhajante māṁ
- budhā bhāva-samanvitāḥ
- (BG 10.8)
"I am the source of all spiritual and material worlds. Everything emanates from Me. The wise, who know this perfectly, engage in My devotional service and worship Me with all their hearts."
Prabhupāda: Hmm? Here is the one from whom everything emanates. So why don't you worship Him? Is there any purport?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Purport. "A learned scholar who has studied the Vedas perfectly and has information from authorities like Lord Caitanya and who knows how to apply these teachings can understand that Kṛṣṇa is the origin of everything in both the material and spiritual worlds. And because he knows this perfectly, he becomes firmly fixed in the devotional service of the Supreme Lord. He can never be deviated by any amount of nonsensical commentaries or by fools. All Vedic literature agrees that Kṛṣṇa is the source of Brahmā, Śiva and all other demigods. In the Atharva Veda it is said, yo brahmāṇaṁ vidadhāti pūrvaṁ yo vai vedāṁś ca gāpayati sma kṛṣṇaḥ: 'It was Kṛṣṇa who in the beginning instructed Brahmā in Vedic knowledge and who disseminated Vedic knowledge in the past.' Then again it is said, atha puruṣo ha vai nārāyaṇo 'kāmayata prajāḥ sṛjeyety upakramya: 'Then the Supreme Personality Nārāyaṇa desired to create living entities.' Again it is said, nārāyaṇād brahmā jāyate, nārāyaṇād prajāpatiḥ prajāyate, nārāyaṇād indro jāyate, nārāyaṇād aṣṭau vasavo jāyante, nārāyaṇād ekādaśa rudrā jāyante, nārāyaṇād dvādaśādityāḥ: 'From Nārāyaṇa, Brahmā is born, and from Nārāyaṇa, the patriarchs are also born. From Nārāyaṇa, Indra is born, from Nārāyaṇa the eight Vasus are born, from Nārāyaṇa the eleven Rudras are born, from Nārāyaṇa the twelve Ādityas are born.' It is said in the same Vedas, brahmaṇyo devakī-putraḥ: 'The son of Devakī, Kṛṣṇa, is the Supreme Personality.' Then it is said, eko vai nārāyaṇa āsīn na brahmā na īśāno nāpo nāgni-samau . . . (break) . . . dyāv-āpṛthivī na nakṣatrāṇi na sūryaḥ sa ekākī na ramate tasya dhyānāntaḥ sthasya yatra chāndogaiḥ kriyamāṇāṣṭakādi-saṁjñakā stuti-stomaḥ stomam ucyate: 'In the beginning of the creation there was only the Supreme Personality Nārāyaṇa. There was no Brahmā, no Śiva, no fire, no moon, no stars in the sky, no sun. There was only Kṛṣṇa, who creates all and enjoys all.' In the many Purāṇas it is said that Lord Śiva was born from the highest, the Supreme Lord Kṛṣṇa, and the Vedas say that it is the Supreme Lord, the creator of Brahmā and Śiva, who is to be worshiped. In the Mokṣa-dharma Kṛṣṇa also says,
- prajāpatiṁ ca rudraṁ cāpy
- aham eva sṛjāmi vai
- tau hi māṁ na vijānīto
- mama māyā-vimohitau
- (Mokṣa-dharma, Mahābhārata)
'The patriarchs, Śiva and others are created by Me, though they do not know that they are created by Me because they are deluded by My illusory energy.' In the Varāha Purāṇa it is also said,
- nārāyaṇaḥ paro devas
- tasmāj jātaś caturmukhaḥ
- tasmād rudro 'bhavad devaḥ
- sa ca sarva-jñatāṁ gataḥ
- (Varāha Purāṇa)
'Nārāyaṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and from Him Brahmā was born, from whom Śiva was born.' Lord Kṛṣṇa is the source of all generations, and He is called the most efficient cause of everything. He says that 'Because everything is born of Me, I am the original source of it all. Everything is under Me. No one is above Me.' There is no supreme controller other than Kṛṣṇa. One who understands Kṛṣṇa in such a way from a bona fide spiritual master and from Vedic literature, who engages all his energy in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, becomes a truly learned man. In comparison to him, all others, who do not know Kṛṣṇa properly, are but fools. Only a fool would consider Kṛṣṇa to be an ordinary man. A Kṛṣṇa conscious person should not be bewildered by fools. He should avoid all unauthorized commentaries and interpretations on Bhagavad-gītā and proceed in Kṛṣṇa consciousness with determination and firmness."
Prabhupāda: So here is the one. You don't accept? You are finding out the one. So where is? So here is the one. Aham ādir hi devānāṁ (BG 10.2), mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate iti matvā bhajante māṁ budhā bhāva . . . Hmm? You have got objection to accept Kṛṣṇa the supreme one?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "What is your answer?" Prabhupāda asks.
Prabhupāda: Why don't you accept Him? In Vedic evidences He is the Supreme. Why?
Indian man (4): Swāmījī, Christ says that he's the goal.
Indian man (4): Christ says that he's the Almighty. What is your opinion?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He said, "Christ says that he is the Almighty. What is your opinion?"
Prabhupāda: Where he said?
Indian man (4): In Bible said. "I am the God, come."
Prabhupāda: He said?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, he never says that.
Trivikrama: "I am the son of God."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He said, "My father, who art in heaven, hallowed by Thy name. Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done." He never says, "My kingdom come, my will be done."
Trivikrama: Says "I sit at the right hand of God."
German man (1): "The Father and me are one," he said. To give an example, the father in the heaven, and to his disciple he said, "The Father is in me. The Father is in me. I am one with the Father. I am not real, but the Father in me, He is doing everything. I am doing nothing." Every truth . . . Somebody touch his feet and they don't touch. "Don't tell me, my Father and me," he said.
Devotee (5): We chant every morning, sākṣād-dharitvena . . .
Prabhupāda: No bona fide person will say that "I am God." As soon as one says that "I am God," he's a rascal immediately. God is not so cheap. Caitanya Mahāprabhu never said. He said, "I am servant of the servant of the servant of servant of." Gopī-bhartuḥ pada-kamalayor dāsa-dāsa-dāsānudāsaḥ (CC Madhya 13.80). Hundred times down. And that is real identification. And as soon as a person says, "I am God," then he's a madman. He's part of God. That is all right. But not the Supreme God.
Indian man (4): Can we find the one in ourself? Can we find the one in the basis of ourself?
Indian man (4): The one in the basis of ourself?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He says, "Can we find the one in ourselves?"
Prabhupāda: Yes. The Self is there. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). That one Lord is there within your heart. Where is the difficulty? That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānām. All living entities—not only you, me—cats, dogs, everyone, even ants . . . Aṇḍāntara-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-stham. He is within the atom also. So there is no denying. He is everywhere.
- eko 'py asau racayituṁ jagad-aṇḍa-koṭiṁ
- yac-chaktir asti jagad-aṇḍa-cayā yad-antaḥ
- govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi
- (BS 5.35)
So Īśvara, this, the Supreme, is living with you as Supersoul. So there is no doubt about it. You are also within the body, and He is also within the body. Find out this verse, kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata, kṣetra-kṣetrajñayor jñānam (BG 13.3). You are individual soul, and He is also living as individual soul, but sarva-kṣetreṣu: He is living everywhere; you are living within your body. That is the difference.
Indian man (4): Then one can realize the omnipresence of the one.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "How can we realize the omnipresence?"
Prabhupāda: You have to realize from authorized scripture, not whimsically. Just like this boy asked, "God, Christ said like that," without any authority. Without reading, without understanding, he says like that. So you have to take from authority. Without authorized statement don't say anything. It is foolish. Śabda-pramāṇam. Just like a good lawyer in the court. When he says something, immediately he quotes the law, "Section number such, laws number such," and that is authorized; not that whimsically if he says. That is not the process. (aside:) You have found out? Kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu . . . Thirteenth Chapter.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Ah.
- kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi
- sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata
- kṣetra-kṣetrajñayor jñānaṁ
- yat taj jñānaṁ mataṁ mama
- (BG 13.3)
Prabhupāda: And before that?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Kṣetram ity abhidhīyate . . . Oh.
Prabhupāda: Idaṁ śarīraṁ kaunteya.
- idaṁ śarīraṁ kaunteya
- kṣetram ity abhidhīyate
- etad yo vetti taṁ prāhuḥ
- kṣetra-jña iti tad-vidaḥ
- (BG 13.2)
"Arjuna said, O my dear Kṛṣṇa, I wish to know about prakṛti, puruṣa, and the field and the knower of the field, and of knowledge and the end of knowledge. The Blessed Lord then said, This body, O son of Kuntī, is called the field, and one who knows this body is called the knower of the field."
Prabhupāda: Just like every one of us. I know, you know, that "This is my body," "This is my finger," "This is my leg." So the body is called kṣetra. We have been allotted a kṣetra. Just like the government distributes the land to a certain person, that "This is your land. You till it and grow your food," thirty bighās or something like that. This body is like that. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe arjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). He is there within the body, and He is giving us this kṣetra. Bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni yantrārūḍhāni māyayā. So I have got this body. You have got that body. The dog has got body. The cat has got body. So He's everywhere. So according to his karma or desire, he gets a body. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānām (BG 18.61). And he works. Therefore the body is the kṣetra, the field, and the individual soul is the worker. So he is working and getting the fruitive result, but at the same time, God is also with him. But He is everywhere. I am not everywhere. I am one individual. Do you understand? And that is the difference between God and me. I cannot say what you are now thinking now, or you cannot say what I am thinking. But God knows what you are thinking and what I am thinking, what he is thinking. That is the difference. That is explained. Kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi mām. He is also within the body, but that is the difference between Him and you. You are limited within your body, and He is unlimited. He is everywhere. So how you can become God? Therefore one who says, "I am God," he's a fool. You cannot say what I am thinking now or what I am suffering. You cannot prove. But He can feel your suffering and feeling, and that is the difference. Here it is clearly said, kṣetra-jñaṁ ca. Ca means "also." "Also" means "I am there." Not one; two. Kṣetra-jñaṁ ca api māṁ viddhi. So God knows what I want, and according to my desire, He is giving me certain type of body—not directly, but through His energy, material nature. Bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni yantrārūḍhāni māyayā (BG 18.61). He has got so many agents. Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate (Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 6.8). So this material nature is also one of the agents. And He knows what I desire. He's very friendly, that "This living entity wants this, so give him a body like this." So we get a body. Tathā dehāntara-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati (BG 2.13). So we have to change the body according to our desire. If we want to go to the higher planetary system, we can go. God will give us the facility. If you want to go to the lower planetary system, He'll give you. And if you want to go to Him, He'll give you. What is that verse? Yānti deva-vratā devān pitṟn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ . . . (BG 9.25).
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bhūtāni yānti bhūtejyā . . .
Prabhupāda: . . . mad-yājino 'pi yānti mām. If you want to go the devas, you can go. If you want to remain here, you can remain here. If you want to go back to home, back to Godhead, you can go. All facilities are there. But don't lunatically say that "I am God. I am everything." Don't be. Jīva is part and parcel of God, but part and parcel means the same quality but not the same person. This finger is part and parcel of my body. If you cut this finger you will find the same blood. And if you cut here, the same blood. But the finger is not the whole body. The finger is finger; your body is body. The quality is the same. So if you thoroughly study the nature of the living being, you can have at least idea of what is God. Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). The Vedānta-sūtra says. Whatever desires I have got, wherefrom these desires come? It comes from God, because I am part and parcel of God. So the janmādy asya yataḥ. I am born a person, so God must be a person. That is natural. A person is born from a person. (break) Why this obstinacy? Say me.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What is your reply? Prabhupāda wants you to reply to him.
English man: Reply to him.
Prabhupāda: You are searching after that one who has become many.
German man (1): I don't say. I don't say. All prophet(?) is one?
Prabhupāda: You said that you are searching after that one.
German man (1): I thought . . .?
German man (1): No.
Prabhupāda: You told me. You did not?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You stated you were searching or looking for the one in many.
German man (1): Ācchā. Yes, I looked the one in many. Yes, I saw it, the one in many.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You saw it.
German man (1): If I see, I'll be able to see the one . . .
German man (1): . . . in many. Not to thought, but to see. I said to see.
Prabhupāda: Here you can see. Why don't you see Kṛṣṇa?
German man (1): Huh?
Prabhupāda: Why don't you see Kṛṣṇa?
German man (1): But I see Him. That's all.
Prabhupāda: Then that is the one. You are looking after that one. So that He is. That is explained. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ (BG 10.8).
German man (1): Sometimes I feel as Arjuna.
Prabhupāda: No, you feel, that is another thing. You can feel so many things. That is not authorized. But if you are searching after that one, here is the one. That is accepted by the all authorities and ācāryas. And He showed His viśva-rūpa, virāḍ-rūpa, that everything is there. Practically Arjuna was shown the virāḍ-rūpa. So why don't you accept Him? What is your objection?
German man (1): I have no objection.
Prabhupāda: Then why don't you accept?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then why don't you accept?
German man (1): I accept. Right when I got into Gītā, I start to read it and I start to follow, I tried to follow.
Prabhupāda: That's nice.
German man (1): I accepted.
Prabhupāda: Then it is all right.
German man (1): I have no . . . (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: So we are preaching that "Here is God: Kṛṣṇa." Our preaching is simple. Kṛṣṇa says, "I am the Supreme." We say, "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme." That's all. We repeat. We don't manufacture. What is the use of manufacturing? I am imperfect. Whatever I manufacture, that is imperfect. So better to repeat the words of the perfect. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. He said, "Every one of you become guru and deliver your surrounding persons, either you are in family or in a neighborhood or in a society or in a nation—as much as you can." Āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra' ei deśa (CC Madhya 7.128). So whatever limited circle, you just become guru and deliver them. Deliver means deliver from the ignorance. Everyone is in ignorance, dehātma-buddhiḥ. Yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke, sa eva go-kharaḥ (SB 10.84.13). So we have to teach them that "You are not this body. You are pure soul. Your business is different." And that is enlightenment. That is business of guru. So we can do that business. And how to do it? That is . . . Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128). You haven't got to manufacture anything. What Kṛṣṇa has already said, you repeat. Finish. Don't make addition, alteration. Then you become guru. Very simple thing. If I say that "My father said, 'This is a bell,' " I am correct because I have learned it from my father, authority. I may be fool, rascal; it doesn't matter. But because I have learned it from the authority and presenting it that "This is a bell," this is perfect. Similarly, I cannot become guru because I am imperfect. My senses are imperfect. I cannot see what is beyond this wall, although I am very much proud of my eyes. I want to see. What you can see? Imperfect, all senses. But if some authority says that "Beyond this wall this is the . . . like this," it is all right. So we have to follow this path, that you become guru, deliver your neighborhood men, associates, but speak the authoritative words of Kṛṣṇa. Then it will act.
So our this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is like that. We do not manufacture ideas. That has spoiled the whole world. Just like you said about Christ. That he never said "Supreme Lord." He said, "I am son of God. I have brought message from Him." Similarly, our position is that "We have got a message from Kṛṣṇa. Take it." So we have no difficulty. Anyone can say. If we study Bhagavad-gītā nicely, assimilate and repeat it, it will act. Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). We are teaching that "You always think of Kṛṣṇa. You become a devotee. You worship Him and offer your obeisances." It doesn't require to become very learned scholar. Anyone can do it. A child can do it. We are teaching. Where is the difficulty? Hmm? Is there any difficulty? Why don't you do that? Why you are making so big, big program without any effect? Take the simple program, and preach everywhere. That is being done. We are preaching this philosophy all over the world, and they are accepting. You know that. In Europe, America, Australia, Canada—in all parts of the world they are appreciating. Even the Africans, they are chanting, dancing. So if I have manufactured some theory and with a limited circle I am satisfied, that is good? Or Kṛṣṇa's program, Caitanya Mahāprabhu's program, which is being accepted all over the world—that is good or this is good? Which one is good? So everyone is manufacturing some concoction, and he's satisfied with few followers. But we have got Kṛṣṇa's program, and it is being followed all over the world. So which one is good: with some limited circle or all over the world? There is a proof. We are not theoretical.
German man (1): Is Kṛṣṇa's vision what He liked?
German man (1): Is Kṛṣṇa's own vision what He liked?
(indistinct—very faint audio)
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He says . . . It's hard to understand what he's getting at. He says, "It's Kṛṣṇa's vision, He . . ."
German man (1): . . . (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Anything . . .
Indian man (2): Kṛṣṇa consciousness is all over the world? It is His own vision, or Kṛṣṇa's own vision? . . . (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Now all over the world they are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's a fact.
German man (1): What is happening . . . (indistinct) . . . One soul has to come . . . (indistinct)
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He says a great devotee has to come and discover, to make this mission all over the world.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Without Kṛṣṇa's authorized person, nobody can do it. Kṛṣṇa-śakti vinā nāhi nāma-pracāra (CC Antya 7.11). Without being empowered by Kṛṣṇa, nobody can do it. . . . (indistinct) . . . I know my Guru Mahārāja. He said that . . . (indistinct) . . . So I have to try to serve him. . . . (indistinct) . . .
German man (1): . . . (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: There is another statement by Caitanya Mahāprabhu about Kṛṣṇa consciousness: yei bhaje sei baḍa, abhakta—hīna chāra kṛṣṇa-bhajane nāhi jāti-kulādi-vicāra (CC Antya 4.67). Anyone who is a devotee of Kṛṣṇa, he is considered highly qualified, sei bhakta . . . (indistinct) . . . Abhakta hīna chāra. But one who is not devotee of Kṛṣṇa, he is condemned. Then, is there any particular nation or creed who can take it? No. Krsna bhajana nāhi jāti-kulādi. If one wants to take to Kṛṣṇa, there is no condition . . . (indistinct) . . . that he should belong to such and such country, such and such . . . (indistinct) . . . Anyone can do it. Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ (BG 9.32). It doesn't matter. (remainder indistinct—very faint audio) (break) (end).