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770422 - Conversation B - Bombay

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His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

770422R2-BOMBAY - April 22, 1977 - 18:39 Minutes

(Conversation with disciples of Chinmayananda and Shivananda Ashram)

Indian man (1): . . . mūrti, Shivananda Ashram.

Prabhupāda: That Pabai Ashram?

Indian man (2): Tirtha Swami.

Indian man (1): Krishna Chaitanya Shivananda Ashram. Virendra. Shri Narayana Shri Caitanya, he has Swami Krishna. He has . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Now people are taking our philosophy. So your mission also, preach in the same way. People will be benefited. The whole world is taking Bhagavad-gītā as it is. Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). Aham ādir hi devānām (BG 10.2). Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti . . . (BG 7.7). Preach this. People will take it. This knowledge is there in India, and they require to be educated with this knowledge. And we have tried little bit, and they are accepting. Why don't you do that? They have taken. I said, "Here is Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Lord. You worship Him." Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī mām. Why don't you teach this? Hmm? You are not teaching this, that "Accept Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Always think of Him. Man-manāḥ. Become a devotee. Offer Him obeisances." Why don't you teach this? Hmm? What is the difficulty?

Indian man (2): Excuse me. I could not follow.

Prabhupāda: Why don't you teach as Kṛṣṇa wants? It is a plain word. Why you are teaching something else?

Indian man (2): Hare Kṛṣṇa says you have to teach.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Indian man (2): You have to teach, Hare Kṛṣṇa says. We have to follow all this . . .

Prabhupāda: So how many kṛṣṇa-bhaktas you have got? You see thousands. What you are teaching?

Indian man (1): Swāmījī, our mission is to . . .

Prabhupāda: Whatever your mission, I am talking of Bhagavad-gītā. The many missions are there. I am not concerned with them. I am concerned with Kṛṣṇa. Why don't you do that?

Indian man (3): We are here to take His message only.

Prabhupāda: But who is taking your message? It is not effective. But here you see, they have taken message. They have dedicated their life for Kṛṣṇa. You could not do so. The message must be effective. Otherwise, simply talking, what is the benefit?

Indian man (3): Swāmījī, excuse me. I don't see any difference between the person to person.

Prabhupāda: There is difference. Cat and dog, there is difference. An intelligent man and a rascal is difference. There must be difference. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). How you say there is no difference? A brāhmin is brāhmin. A kṣatriya is kṣatriya. Vaiśya is vaiśya. That is real understanding. If you say: "Everyone is brāhmaṇa," that's not good.

Indian man (3): But we have been told to see only one consciousness, one life, between indi . . .

Prabhupāda: That oneness is on the spiritual platform. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati, samaḥ sarveṣu (BG 18.54). That is another thing. But so long you have got a bodily concept of life, you must divide: cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). That is wanted. Just like in my body there is division. There is head. There is hand. There is leg. There is belly. So they have got different activities. The head is important. If you cut the head, then whole thing is finished.

Indian man (3): We need the substratum because of which we identify with the processes.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Indian man (3): We need the substratum because of which we see the differences.

Prabhupāda: Difference is there in your body. Do you think the head and the leg the same thing?

Indian man (3): But certain occupation . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no, I mean to say that you have to take work from the head and from the leg, but head and leg different. Sva-karmaṇā tam abhyarcya (BG 18.46). That is science. If you want to take the work of head from the leg, that is foolishness. Head must remain head, leg must remain leg, but you take the work of leg for walking; you take the work of the brain for thinking. That is wanted. Evasive is no good. So anyway, our mission is that Indians especially, they should take advantage of Bhagavad-gītā—not by distorting the meaning. As it is. You cannot distort the statement of Bhagavad-gītā. Then you defy the authority. You manufacture your own way. That is very bad. Then there is no authority. Sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye yad vadasi keśava (BG 10.14). As Arjuna . . . "Whatever You say, I have accepted." That is the need, not that, "I am very learned scholar; I can change the meaning." That is not good. You are not greater authority than Kṛṣṇa. Thinking like that is foolishness. Kṛṣṇa is authority. All the ācāryas—Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Kṛṣṇa Caitanya Mahāprabhu—they have all accepted kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). How you can speak something else what, against what, the instruction of Kṛṣṇa?

Indian man (3): What is the means by which we know what Gītā says to us, Swāmījī?

Prabhupāda: Do you don't know what Gītā says? Then why do you read Gītā? Don't read.

Indian man (3): But there must be some means that you can adopt . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no. Do you know what Gītā says? Do you know it? What Gītā says, do you know it? You do not know?

Indian man (3): Swāmījī, nobody knows Bhagavad-gītā.

Prabhupāda: Nobody knows! You do not know. We know. Why do you say, "Nobody knows"? You do not know. It is open secret. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam . . . (BG 18.66). You do not know. But don't say that "Nobody knows." That is wrong impression. We know. You are blind. You do not like to know it. Everyone should know. What is the difficulty?

Indian man (3): No, Swāmījī, I mean . . .

Prabhupāda: No, I do not know what you mean. But you say: "Nobody knows." That is a wrong impression. Everyone knows. You do not know. That is my . . .

Indian man (2): Swāmījī, we have been taught like this and, in fact, now we are convinced on that point. We are convinced.

Prabhupāda: No, everyone knows, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65), sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam (BG 18.66). These are open secret. What is the difficulty?

Indian man (3): Differences in meaning . . .

Prabhupāda: You can take different meaning, but we do not take like that. We take Bhagavad-gītā as it is.

Indian man (4): Swāmījī, how do we know that the meaning is distorted?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Indian man (4): How do we know that the meaning is distorted?

Prabhupāda: Because you do not worship Kṛṣṇa.

Indian man (4): Swāmī?

Prabhupāda: Because you do not worship Kṛṣṇa. It is plain fact. But we worship Kṛṣṇa. In every temple, all over the world, 102 temples, we worship Kṛṣṇa. But you don't worship Kṛṣṇa.

Indian man (3): No, we worship all gods, Swāmījī, irrespective of . . .

Prabhupāda: Ah, that means avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam (BG 9.11), kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ yajante anya-devatāḥ (BG 7.20). Hṛta-jñānāḥ, naṣṭa-buddhayaḥ.

Indian man (3): Swāmījī, we are interested in . . .

Indian man (2): I think . . .

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Indian man (3): Excuse me, Swāmījī. We are interested in that one meaning which is the essence of the Indian culture. If we are wrong, we are ready to correct ourselves.

Prabhupāda: No . . . you'll never correct yourself, because you do not understand what is Bhagavad-gītā. That is the difficulty. You say that, "Nobody understands." You say.

Indian man (3): No, Swāmījī . . .

Prabhupāda: At least you do not understand.

Indian man (3): Please forgive me if I have given a wrong . . .

Prabhupāda: At least you do not understand. That's all.

Indian man (2): Are we not, potentially, not to understand Bhagavad-gītā, then?

Prabhupāda: Everyone. What is the difficulty? But you understand in a different way. It is simple thing. Everyone understands. This is expected. But you understand in different way. That is the difficulty. You create your own meaning.

Indian man (3): I request, Swāmījī, on what basis we can say that it is a different meaning or distorted meaning and not the meaning which the Gītā says . . .?

Prabhupāda: Because you say that nobody knows. You say. And whatever meaning, that is in your mind, but you said nobody knows.

Indian man (5): No, that is quite mistaken talk.

Prabhupāda: That mistake . . . then what can I talk? It is mistake.

Indian man (3): I said nobody knows until he knows.

Prabhupāda: So if one does not want to know, how he'll know?

Indian man (5): Whatever Swāmījī says, that . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. And Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam (BG 18.66). Why don't you do that? Who has got the . . .?

Indian man (5): We want to be student. Sarva-dharmān is word.

Prabhupāda: That . . . that means you become student; hear me and you'll learn it. It is not the one minute's business.

Indian man (5): Somehow you can give some that, advice from you. But whatever . . .

Prabhupāda: Advice . . . well, you come here. Stay here. We shall teach you. Not that you have come here for five minutes, I have to teach you sarva-dharmān . . .

Indian man (5): No, you don't have time.

Prabhupāda: No, I have got time. So that's all right. You have to . . . you have to learn it.

Indian man (3): Swāmījī, you bless ourselves in such a way that we will not . . .

Prabhupāda: You have come. You are welcome here and take the blessings. But you won't come. When I say: "Come here and take the blessings," you won't come. What can I do? If one has fallen in the blind well—"Please get me up! Get me up!"—so I give him a rope: "Yes, catch it. I'll get you . . ." "No, no, I shall not catch." Without catching, there is no . . . so if you want to learn, come here. Stay. We shall teach you. That you won't do. Then how can I teach you? You learn from them. Just see these European and Americans, how they are . . . you have to learn from them by their behavior. These are American boys. Just see how they have tilaka, how they . . .

Indian man (3): No, Swāmījī, we know Swāmījī's tremendous work going on around the world.

Prabhupāda: So if I can teach them, who did not know what is Kṛṣṇa, I cannot teach you? I can teach you. But you won't take the teaching. That is the difficulty. Stubborn. That is the difficulty.

Indian man (1): Swāmījī, we have thrown ourself on his lap, Swāmījī. There is . . . (indistinct) . . . we have thrown ourselves, performed everything. We have left our home, everything.

Prabhupāda: But what for?

Indian man (1): And he's our bread, and he's our . . . he'll look after us. That's all.

Prabhupāda: What for? Śrama eva hi kevalam.

Indian man (1): Everything . . .

Prabhupāda: It is śrama eva hi kevalam.

dharmaḥ svanuṣṭhitaḥ puṁsāṁ
viṣvaksena-kathāsu yaḥ
notpādayed yadi ratiṁ
śrama eva hi kevalam
(SB 1.2.8)

After leaving your home and everything, if you do not understand Kṛṣṇa, śrama eva hi kevalam—it is simply waste of time. If you want to waste your time, that's all . . .

Indian man (3): If Swāmījī forgives me, I don't see . . . I have read Swāmījī's . . .

Prabhupāda: That is your blindness. You do not see the . . .

Indian man (3): I don't find any difference between Kṛṣṇa consciousness and the concept of our Brahman.

Prabhupāda: No, then you do not know what is Brahman, what is Kṛṣṇa. That means you are not fully in knowledge.

Indian man (3): Ācchā . . . it is not a name, sir.

Prabhupāda: It is clearly stated, brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate.

Indian man (6): Are we not catching only names and forms?

Prabhupāda: You can do anything nonsense. Who cares for you? The śāstra is there.

Indian man (6): Hari means knowledge. Vāsudeva means . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yaḥ śāstra-vidhim . . . yaḥ śāstra-vidhim utsṛjya vartate kāma-kārataḥ (BG 16.23). This is in Gītā. You do not know it. Na sa siddhim avāpnoti. He'll never get success. Na sukhaṁ na parāṁ gatim. That is there. Here is śāstra.

vadanti tat tattva-vidas
tattvaṁ yaj jñānam advayam
brahmeti paramātmeti
bhagavān iti śab . . .
(SB 1.2.11)

You do not know.

Indian man (1): Swāmījī, can't . . .

Prabhupāda: No, don't waste my time.

Indian man (5): Swāmījī, we have not come to waste. We have come here to take only your blessings.

Prabhupāda: That's all. I cannot . . . I cannot waste my time in this way. We have got our śāstras. We are following them. That's all. If you want, you learn here. Otherwise do your whatever you like. Let us alone. We have no difficulty. We are triumphant all over the world. That's all. Phalena paricīyate. We have to see by the result, not by talking. So thank you very much for your coming. Give them pra . . .

Indian man (5): So please bless us.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. But if you are interested, you are welcome.

Indian man (3): Yes, Swāmījī.

Indian man (6): When door is kept open, it is . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian man (6): . . . very natural to come to you, Swāmījī.

Prabhupāda: Jaya.

Indian man (1): Really, Swāmījī, bless . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Jaya. Jaya. Aiye. (Hindi) (guests leave)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Next time maybe we should deal with them.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is it all right that they are brought in, or should we talk to them?

Prabhupāda: Yes, it is all right.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Not necessary to bring these people.

Prabhupāda: Distorting meaning.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Phew! This . . . the thing is, their guru is nonsense, so he's attracted nonsense disciples. They want to be cheated, and they have the cheating guru.

Prabhupāda: They have come from Hawaii.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hawaii. Hawaii.

Prabhupāda: Oh, oh, that Hawaii program.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Two of them are disciples of Shivananda Ashram in Hrishikesh, and three of them are from Swami Chin . . . they're Swami Chinmayananda's disciples. Swami Chinmayananda has this program. He advertises for getting young men. Now they're the second batch. They study different Vedas and Upaniṣads. (end)