770405 - Conversation B - Bombay
Girirāja: . . . so even if they do everything else correct in terms of the body. They go farther and farther from the real solution.
Prabhupāda: Everyone has done this mistake: "I am God." What is the use of the advancement of so-called civilization?
Girirāja: We have to show that this is scientific fact. Otherwise the demons will make propaganda that this is sectarian.
Prabhupāda: "Brainwashed." They say "brainwashed."
Prabhupāda: So if he has already talked with Morarji, and he has agreed, then it is great advance.
Prabhupāda: Good advance.
Girirāja: He said he would be pleased to meet you. He gave a speech on the television last night.
Girirāja: Yes. In Hindi. I couldn't follow all of it, but there was a lot of reference to Gandhi and Gandhi's principles and the . . . molding the character of youth. So I told Mr. Rajda—I was watching with Mr. Rajda in his house—that this is the real way to fulfill all of these goals, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and Mr. Rajda said yes.
Prabhupāda: Then that television speech must be out in the paper.
Girirāja: Yes, it must have been reported this morning. I mean he is representing a return to the more traditional standards of morality and culture of India.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They say that they are going to replace this family planning with yoga. Instead of using artificial means, they're going to teach yoga.
Prabhupāda: To become brahmacārī.
Girirāja: The minister of health and family planning, he said . . . he denied, that "This name should be changed to just Minister of Health, because this type of family planning is against the traditional values of India."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It is totally against it. It's Western, that whole Western conception.
Prabhupāda: How . . . (indistinct) . . .
Girirāja: Actually, a short time ago, everyone knew that these things were wrong, but now they are trying to pretend that it is not wrong. They are trying to forget.
Prabhupāda: They can do, all their political reasons. These rascals, they can do anything. They have no principles, no morality, no standard of morality—nothing. Simply all rogues and thieves. It will be there more and more. All rogues and thieves will take part in politics. That is stated. Dasyu dharmeṇa. Just like dasyu, the burglar, the thieves, they have got organization how to get money. So they, the government, they'll be rogues and thieves. And whenever there is necessity of money, then tax. You work hard; they will tax. Organized burglars, organized guṇḍās. And Indira was doing that, Indira and company. Take the power and club(?) them and do whatever you like. She is a prostitute; her son is a guṇḍā. This is the sample of the . . . But it will be done all round the world. This is a sample of that.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: She seems to have been one of the worst leaders so far.
Prabhupāda: She is not leader, she is a prostitute. Woman given freedom means prostitute. Free woman means prostitute. What is this prostitute? She has no fixed-up husband. And free woman means this, daily, new friend.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Who is Indira's husband? A congressman?
Girirāja: He died at an early age.
Prabhupāda: Hmm? Who?
Girirāja: He was asking what happened to her husband. I said he died. He was a Parsee. As Your Divine Grace had said, that due to the saṅkīrtana movement an auspicious atmosphere is being created all over the world. So is it not possible that at least for the time being things will improve?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Improve. Not for the time being—for ten thousand years.
Girirāja: Yes. Out of 427,000 years I was taking that 10,000 as "for the time being."
Prabhupāda: It is nothing, sport.(?)
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, where is the mention of that ten thousand years?
Prabhupāda: That I have heard it. Maybe in the Bhāgavata. (pause) Such a nice thing. Alone in this world I am struggling, and the so-called intelligent persons, they will not come. They have business. Why? If it is actually beneficial to the human society, why I should alone try? I will go on trying so long I'll live. There will be no checking of . . . But what kind of intelligent persons there are? (Govindam record in background) It has been approved by intelligent men like . . . From our section . . . (indistinct) . . . Most wretched rogues. They do work. They are not so. They are intelligent. They have rejected all these "Lord" ideas and the . . . Because they have sinned, all humbug. Especially in the Western countries, in the Christian world, what is there? It is bogus. I have condemned it. You have seen that book? One Christian boy inquired. Have you got the copy? Bring. (pause) We shall go on playing govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam aham. People may hear or not, we don't mind.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: To Mr. Francois Pierre. "My dear Francois." He's in France. "Please accept my blessings. I beg to thank you for your letter dated March 17th. Try to understand our mission of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The world is all going to hell. They do not know what is the value of life. Like blind sheep following a blind leader, they are all going to the slaughterhouse. Human life is meant for saving, but instead the leaders are keeping the people in darkness. This is suicidal. Let us try to save them. Christian, Hindu or Muslim, it doesn't matter. One must have faith in God. But if one does not know what is God, then what is the question of religion? This sectarian view has caused havoc in the world. Our real business is to know God and one's relationship with God. Do you know what is God? The answers to your questions are as follows: 1] Yes, the message of Jesus is universally applicable. Why not? Jesus says, 'Thou shalt not kill.' This is applicable to all. But all Christians are violating this law. So where is a Christian? In my opinion there is not a single Christian. Do they follow all ten commandments? 2] We accept Jesus Christ as śaktyāveśa-avatāra, an empowered incarnation of God. 3] The Bible should be accepted literally and not symbolically. There is no symbolical meaning of the sacrifice on the cross. The people were so rascal, they attempted to kill him because he was speaking of God. We can understand the position of that society. He had to deal with such rascals. He preached 'Thou shalt not kill,' and they killed him. The argument that Jesus died to redeem us of sins is simply another sinful argument. That Jesus has taken contract to redeem your sins is simply a plea of the sinners. They continue sinning and expect Christ to take the contract to freedom. It is most sinful. Instead of actually stopping sins, they contract with Jesus Christ. These people should be immediately hanged. That way our . . . they say, 'That way our religion is very good. We cannot stop sinning, but it is okay because Christ has taken contract to save us.' It is the same as saying 'I am chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa now. I can do any nonsense.' That is known as nāma-aparādha, offenses to the holy name of the Lord. 4] Regarding Christ coming again, for the time being, you follow his instructions. Then if he comes it will be all right. Regarding the position of our movement if Christ were to come again, that we shall see when he comes. 'The end of the world' means that the world will be devastated. Just like you have a body and it will be finished, similarly the whole world body will be devastated. Creation, maintenance and annihilation. Naśa in Sanskrit means devastated. 5] There is no difference between a pure Christian and a sincere devotee of Kṛṣṇa. 6] Everything is accurately described in the Bhāgavata Mahāpurāṇa. Love of God means God's mercy. If God is pleased, He will do anything. The pleasure of God can be awarded by God. In Sanskrit it is described kṛpā-siddhi, perfection out of mercy. One must follow the four regulative principles—no eating meat, fish or eggs; no intoxication; no gambling; and no illicit sex life. Repent of all sinful activities and depend on Kṛṣṇa's mercy. Hoping this meets you well, your ever well-wisher, A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami."
Girirāja: Very nice. Actually, about two years ago there was a propaganda in the West that if you are afraid of sinning, then it means that you don't have full faith in Jesus Christ. Because he has promised to accept your sinful reactions. So therefore if you sin, then it means you have full faith that he will accept the reaction.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda said those people should be hanged immediately.
Prabhupāda: When the Bible has said that after death one goes to hell or heaven, if Jesus Christ has taken a contract, then where is the question of going to hell?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, that is for people who don't sign the contract with him. That is what they say. As long as you say that you accept Jesus, then you are going to heaven for sure.
Prabhupāda: So then Jesus Christ accepted sinful reaction of a certain class of men. He is not universal.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Only those who accept him.
Girirāja: That means the Christians.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right. And anyone who was born before Jesus, he is doomed.
Prabhupāda: Just see. This is their great philosophy.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Great philosophy.
Girirāja: So this point was an embarrassment for the Christian theologians, because people would say, "Well, what about great philosophers like Socrates and Plato, who lived before Jesus? They are also damned to suffer in hell?" So this question was very perplexing. It was hard for them to condemn that they are all burning in hell. I mean, actually they have no philosophy at all.
Prabhupāda: All nonsense.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That is why we rejected our so-called religious heritage. We could see that there was no substance to it. And the leaders were just like normal debauchees of any other groups. They weren't spiritual. I used to remember seeing the priests and the rabbis getting drunk, smoking cigarettes, talking nonsense just like everybody else. There was no difference except for the dress.
Prabhupāda: This is everywhere. In India also.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Girirāja, did you get those passbooks by any chance?
Girirāja: Oh? Amogha-līlā was . . . Mr. Krishnamurti didn't come back until the afternoon, so it couldn't be taken for being brought up to date.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So I'm going today. I have to meet with Girirāja about a number of things, Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end)