770327 - Conversation C - Bombay
(Ratan Singh Rajda - Member of Parliament)
Girirāja: I told him that you had agreed to wait to meet him. He said, "This is wonderful. I have been pining for his darśana."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This guy?
Girirāja: He said: "Now we must have rāma-rājya." He said: "That is why I must meet your Guru Mahārāja before I go back to Delhi tomorrow."
Prabhupāda: Yes. I can give him . . . (break)
Girirāja: So I told him I would meet him at the rally. They are having a rally at Shivaji Park. And he invited me to sit on the dais. But I don't know if this is a good idea for us.
Prabhupāda: Why not? He is honoring you.
Girirāja: Yes. So he said that he would ask the organizer that he should speak early in the program so he can be free and come here as early as possible. So he is very serious. I don't think there will be any delay.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What is his name?
Girirāja: Ratan Singh Rajda.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What is his exact position?
Girirāja: He is a member of parliament from Bombay South, which is the most prestigious district, from Colaba up to Worli, something like that.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He formerly helped us?
Girirāja: Yes. When Mhatre was . . . did that demolition attempt, so he was one of the leaders in the corporation. So he fought for us. In fact today also he asked if there was any trouble, because he still is also maintaining his position in the municipal corporation. So I think when he gets back from Delhi in a week, I might bring up some of our little problems.
Prabhupāda: That plan sentence.
Girirāja: Yeah. And that road, that ten feet.
Prabhupāda: What benefit they will get?
Girirāja: No, only harassment, they have . . . they have nothing to gain actually. And everyone knows it. But they are just so weak and political-minded that they don't want to stand up against Mhatre, the officers. Anyway, I think I should go now then.
Prabhupāda: He is coming?
Girirāja: Yes. I'll bring him here, so there will be no unnecessary waiting. And . . .
Prabhupāda: What time?
Girirāja: By eight at the latest. We'll try for earlier also. (break)
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya.
Mr. Rajda: (Hindi) I have come for your darśana when you were at Walkasha(?) last time when you came to Bombay.
Girirāja: At Bhogilal Patel's.
Mr. Rajda: Then much water has flowed in the Arabian Sea and the Ganges. For nineteen months I was in jails.
Mr. Rajda: Yes. In this emergency, you know. About 150,000 patriotic people were in jails, J. R. Prakash, Morarji and all big leaders and all other workers. So I was kept at . . . (indistinct) . . . Central Prison for nineteen months. Then they released me, and after this election period, so just I would order to fight the election from Bombay South. And with her blessings I have won it, with a very comfortable margin, 65,000. Just now we were at huge . . . (indistinct) . . . Shivaji Park. And when Girirājajī told me that you were here, I told him definitely I would like to rush for darśana.
Prabhupāda: The material adjustment . . . just like we felt little danger under the regime of Indira Gandhi. Now we have another feeling. This is material adjustment. Material adjustment may be temporarily beneficial, but that is not permanent beneficial.
Mr. Rajda: Unless there is adhyātmika adjustment, there cannot be lasting benefit.
Prabhupāda: The difficulty is that we do not know. Just like you take a fish from the water and put it on the land—it will never become happy. Again you throw him in the water, he will feel happy. So the living entity is different from prakṛti. In Bhagavad-gītā it is clearly stated, apareyam itas tu viddhi me prakṛtim (BG 7.5). These material elements—earth, water, air, fire, ether, mind, intelligence, ego—these are gross and subtle material elements. And the living being, jīva-bhūta, is superior than the inferior material elements. Apareyam itas tu viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parām. Parā-prakṛti, it is part and parcel of God. So unless we understand this fact, which is very nicely explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, this material adjustment will never make us happy.
Mr. Rajda: No, but as far as this change is concerned, the basic difference is formerly there was no moral code observed by the rulers.
Prabhupāda: It can deteriorate at any moment.
Mr. Rajda: That interpretation is there, that is there.
Prabhupāda: You cannot say . . .
Mr. Rajda: If the rulers, they have got faith in dharma . . .
Prabhupāda: They have no faith. That is the difficulty. They talk of God, talk of religion, but they do not know what is God, what is religion. That is the problem. You may be or I may be. We do not know what is the identity of the living entity, then where is the question of religion?
Mr. Rajda: No, in the last rulers, most of them were Communists, but they said that religion is opium. They say religion is opium. They didn't believe in religion at all.
Prabhupāda: Therefore they say something, we say something, he says something, that you manufacture something. But nobody know what is reality. That is the difficulty. Unless you know the reality, to suggest something, "I suggest it," that does not mean it is solution. That is going on, all over the world. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ (SB 7.5.31). Bahir-artha. The external features, these material features, they are concerned with that. Earth, water, air, fire, mind, intelligence. But they do not know that beyond this, there is another element. Unless you come to that knowledge, there is no question of welfare activities. That knowledge is available in India. India should understand. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. Bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya janma haila yāra (CC Adi 9.41). Not only India, but he must be a human being. Not only human being, but also systematic human society. (break) Of course, we are trying to give this knowledge. These American, Europeans, they are taking it. It should be done very systematically, not alone tried.
Mr. Rajda: No, but in spite of that, your efforts are have even got effect on the Western world also.
Prabhupāda: Western world knows it is genuine.
Mr. Rajda: Genuine, correct.
Prabhupāda: Therefore even little effort is giving great benefit. But we must know what that effort should be. Everything is there. We must take advantage of it. But we are not taking advantage. So we have got good government, very nice. Now you should take advantage of the privileges which are there in India. The Bhagavad-gītā is there. If you take direction from Bhagavad-gītā, then you will get. The whole human society will be benefitted. But that you do not do. That is the defect. Even big, big leaders, they profess to be student of Bhagavad-gītā, but they do not know what is Bhagavad-gītā, although it is clearly stated. Who is the leader in India who does not know Bhagavad-gītā? Everyone. Even Morarji Desai, when he was to be arrested by Indira's government, he said "Wait. Let me finish my reading of Bhagavad-gītā," is it not?
Mr. Rajda: Yes, yes.
Prabhupāda: "Then you can arrest me." There are many leaders . . .
Mr. Rajda: And in jail also he was studying very minutely.
Prabhupāda: But now he says that, "Janata is my God." Is it not, recently?
Indian (2): It's in the first paper like that. But then recently he said that point because of Kṛṣṇa's grace. Good excuse is that he has accepted . . .
Mr. Rajda: He'll swear he is to God: Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa. He is very clear in his mind.
Indian (2): On the first paper like that. I do not know . . .
Prabhupāda: Why not preach Kṛṣṇa, God? Why not give the people . . .
Mr. Rajda: He has clarified that point.
Indian (2): He has clarified. Up to three days or four days he has clarified. On Friday it was not clarified. Today it was clarified.
Prabhupāda: Why not government make people God conscious? It is very simple thing. God personally is explaining how to become God conscious. Very simple thing. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). Four things. Even a child can do it. So why not leaders? Then their example should be followed.
- yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas
- tat tad evetaro janaḥ
- sa yat pramāṇaṁ kurute
- lokas tad anuvartate
- (BG 3.21)
Why not took to this, this God consciousness? Do it seriously. Then everything will be all right. They are defying the existence of God and reading Bhagavad-gītā. This is the position. And if I go to the details, it may not be very palatable. But big, big leaders say like that. We have got everything in India, and to become God conscious, to establish the Lord's kingdom, not at all difficult. But we manufacture our own ideas. But we want that rāma-rājya, but without Rāma. How rāma-rājya will be there? So those who are leaders of the society, if they take seriously, India can be an ideal state. And you can make an . . . set example to the whole world. The whole world will be happy. But we must be very serious about it. That is our this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. We are trying, but we have no support from the government, from the leaders. We are alone. Now, after twelve years, they have recognized in the United States and London, Germany. Otherwise I was, twelve years before, I was not . . . (indistinct) . . . loitering in the streets of New York. Who was caring for me? Now these boys, they have joined; they are doing something, they are fighting.
Mr. Rajda: Yes. They are doing wonderful work.
Prabhupāda: They must.
Mr. Rajda: Very enthusiastic work.
Prabhupāda: It is the duty of the Indians. But instead of Indians, I have to collect these young men from foreign countries.
Mr. Rajda: We were just now talking about it on the way. In India we must take it up.
Prabhupāda: Let there be one institution for training Indian youth for this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.
Mr. Rajda: That could be done. That could be done.
Prabhupāda: You do it, and it will be wonderful thing. Do it. In New Delhi. Or in Bombay we have got now very nice building.
Mr. Rajda: In Juhu.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Cooperate with us. It is scientific. Last night our Dr. Svarūpa Dāmodara presented very scientifically. We can challenge any scientist, any philosopher. So if you become serious, if you cooperate with us, this institution can set a great example, not only in India, but to the whole world. So you are so kind, you have come to see me. You have got desire. So let us take it seriously.
Mr. Rajda: Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Correct.
Prabhupāda: It is serious, but nobody has taken it seriously. Bhagavad-gītā is popular book. Everyone takes the Bhagavad-gītā and says: "I am a student of Bhagavad-gītā." It is very simple thing. And if the leaders of the society, they set example, others will follow.
Mr. Rajda: Correct. That's correct. Serious effort should be made. Only lip service will not help. That is correct. No, I fully agree, and we shall definitely apply our mind to that. I am connected with this or I came into contact with this movement when the Juhu temple was demolished, and at that time, under standing committee and ten set of demands. Ah, yes. Then Girirāja and some friends had come to me for cooperation.
Prabhupāda: So you have given me great service. Now it is not only demolished, it is standing there.
Mr. Rajda: No, it is standing and very nice temple.
Prabhupāda: So let us take advantage of it and make a very perfect institution so that people may take advantage. Otherwise . . . there is a Bengali song, māyār bośe jāccho bhese', khāccho hābuḍubu bhāi. Everyone is being washed away by the waves of this material energy. And their attempt to save themselves . . . that is . . . everything is described in the Bhagavad-gītā. Just like in light, during the rainy season, so many worms and flies they come and fall in the fire, phat-phat-phat. They do not know. This is the very description, in the Eleventh Chapter. So we do not condemn material life, but without spiritual understanding, this dog race for material comforts, it may be temporary, very nice, but ultimately it is being carried away by the waves of material nature. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu (BG 13.22). Let them study Bhagavad-gītā seriously. Let there be serious student to understand, to explain, and everything will be . . . there must be sadācāra.
Mr. Rajda: Yes, this is the basic thing.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmacārī guru-kule vasan dānto guror hitam (SB 7.12.1). We are opening gurukula in Vṛndāvana. We can open here also. We have got land, so let us cooperate. The things are there. We haven't got to manufacture it. Simply we have to take the program seriously. Then everything will be all right.
Mr. Rajda: For how many days you are here in Bombay?
Prabhupāda: At least for one month.
Mr. Rajda: Till one month. I am returning on seventh again here. Then I shall come here. Tomorrow I am going for Delhi, but on seventh I am returning. Seventh I will come here again.
Prabhupāda: So you come and let us take it seriously.
Mr. Rajda: And we can detail . . . some details can be. Yes.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, definitely.
Indian (2): So can I suggest one thing? We were discussing the meeting with Morarji Desai, so you can carry on the conversation.
Mr. Rajda: Yes, yes . . .
Prabhupāda: No, let us first of all meet some of the subordinate worker. When they agree, then we will have . . .
Mr. Rajda: That meeting could be arranged any time. Whenever it is convenient to you, you can . . . we can talk to him.
Prabhupāda: No, I am . . . my life is dedicated for this purpose. I am . . . it is convenient for me at any time. Otherwise, I am not keeping good health at the moment. Still, I have come. I am just trying even up to the last moment of my life, if I can deliver some good to these people. That is my determination. What is this life? Life will end today or tomorrow or day after. But if you live just to the point, that is the idea. Otherwise trees are also living thousands of years. What is the benefit?
Mr. Rajda: But I am just suggesting Morarji Desai meeting we can arrange any time. Will it be possible, suppose I go there and fix up time and telephone over there?
Indian (2): Yes. You can give my card and telephone number . . . (indistinct)
Mr. Rajda: All right, all right. That can be arranged. And you would be also . . . (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Bhagavad-gītā is not a sectarian.
Mr. Rajda: No, not at all. Full of universal appeal.
Prabhupāda: It is full of . . . (indistinct) . . . manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye (BG 7.3). So it is practically proved, how they are taking Bhagavad-gītā. So it is science. It is actually life. So why not practice in India? It is not that everyone will be able, but there must be an examplary sect. People may see now, "Here is ideal." That we can do. India it is easier, because those who are born in India, constitutionally they have got that tendency. Simply we have to channelize. Then everything will be . . . so there is a good chance. Now the government is changed. They are after something very good, and the direction is there. If you take it seriously, there will be no difficulty.
Mr. Rajda: No, definitely we shall take it up seriously, very seriously. We had no chance in the sense we are ourselves were in prison after I met you last. Immediately we were taken in. And this all hullabaloo came about, reactions and all this. Now it is only now that we get the breathing time. Very trying days were there.
Prabhupāda: So there is some Kṛṣṇa's purpose that you are elected.
Mr. Rajda: It is through His blessings.
Prabhupāda: Take advantage of His blessings. Do some service.
Mr. Rajda: Correct.
Prabhupāda: Your full name?
Mr. Rajda: I am Ratan Singh Rajda.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. (pause)
Girirāja: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I think we can go with Mr. Rajda to the paṇḍāl, and since you have already met, and it is very late . . .
Prabhupāda: I can go. You want me to go also? You want me to go also?
Girirāja: No, I am thinking that Acyutānanda Swami must have already spoken and, you know, we've had the rāma-līlā. So I think it may not be necessary for you to go.
Prabhupāda: All right. Then you take Mr. Rajda.
Mr. Rajda: Ācchā Gurudeva. (takes leave)
Prabhupāda: Thank you. (obeisances) (end)