770322 - Conversation - Bombay
Prabhupāda: Echo mano jano mandanam arpane. Manuṣya-janama pāiyā, rādhā-kṛṣṇa nā bhajiyā. You can very easily do it. And neglect it simply by dog race, four-legged, four-wheel race. They have no knowledge. Anthill. I have given the name. Anthill?
Indian man (1): Anthill.
Prabhupāda: Yes. These big, big buildings, anthill. And these four-wheel car—dog-race. What is the difference between the anthill and the skyscraper building?
Indian man (1): (indistinct Hindi) . . . more modern only.
Prabhupāda: The same thing. They are also living in the holes, and we have made some holes.
Bhavānanda: Even in Africa, we saw some anthills that were as big as skyscrapers.
Bhavānanda: Big, big.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Twenty foot.
Bhavānanda: Twenty-foot anthills.
Indian man (2): (indistinct) . . . more than ten foot of the . . . (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: If more men come, then I shall describe all this anthill civilization. "Health." Nonsense, what "Health"? He'll be kicked out immediately.
Indian man (2): Even healthy development.
Prabhupāda: No, who is healthy if he's going to die? "I am so healthy that I am going to die tomorrow." This is their health.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Illusion. They don't know. Every one of those questions was about the body.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa said, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). That is healthy, when you do not die even the body is destroyed. And that is healthy life. What is this healthy life? The body is finished and everything, everything is . . . actually everything is finished. And to keep people in that ignorance—"The body is finished; everything is finished" —that's not the fact. Kṛṣṇa very clearly said, na jāyate na mriyate vā kadācin na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). They do not question even how it is possible. That is the most important question. Some lady asked me, "What is the important . . .?"
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "What is the most important thing in life?"
Prabhupāda: This is the most important question.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: She was a follower of Rajneesh, that girl up there.
Indian man (1): That first girl, European girl, was follower of Rajneesh.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The one who asked the question, "What is the most important thing in life?"
Prabhupāda: No, if our movement is organizedly pushed on, the Rajneesh position will be over. Rajneesh is already finished. He has no place in Bombay.
Indian man (1): No, he has been driven out of Bombay. He has gone to Poona, because of all the hocus-pocus was going on, people were complaining. So on moral ground, he has been shifted to . . . I mean he had to go to Poona.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Why do they let him stay there?
Indian man (1): Because the people are not opposing. If they opposed him, he shall have to vacate there also.
Prabhupāda: What about Sai Baba?
Indian man (1): He is doing some camatkar, (magical feats, but . . . he is doing all this chamatkar of getting bhasma, (ashes,) and all gold bangles, and gold rings and all those things, giving it to the people and so people are attracted. Sometimes the biggest families which are blessed by him are also in Karmanis.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What happened to them?
Indian man (1): They are all fighting.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One of them died, I remember.
Indian man (1): That . . . one of them died. But some other people also fought in the families. Company can't pay heavy . . . they lost control of the company. So if saints come and business is ruined, it is not correct. If he's a real saint, he should have guided them properly. All the professor fighting.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Big family.
Indian man (1): They are Jains actually.
Prabhupāda: Who are these Karmani? They are famous family.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Karmani Chambers.
Indian man: Very big family. Karmani Chambers and Karmani. They are making this electrical towers for transmission. All over India, Asia, they are supplying. Very big contractor.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Big family. Very wealthy. (break) I was just explaining to Bhavānanda why . . . (break)
Prabhupāda: Suppose I am a very big business magnate. Next life, if I am going to become a dog—according to my karma, the nature's law will act—then what is benefit? One day before, Indira Gandhi was important. Next day I'll may be nowhere, finished. Nobody knows where is Indira Gandhi. Just twenty-four hours she was most prominent woman, and after twenty-four hours nobody cares to look at her. This nature's law, how you can check? This is going on. Any moment, anything can be changed by the laws of nature. So India's importance is there. They know the law. Therefore so long the body, full of intelligence, human body, is there, they'll utilize it very . . . that is life, not to be carried away by the waves of nature. This is India's duty. So we want to make our institution at least a place for understanding this knowledge. It doesn't matter only a few persons may understand. That is sufficient. Ekaś candras tamo hanti na ca tārāḥ sahasraśaḥ: "If you keep one moon in the sky, that is sufficient for light. What is the use of millions of stars?" Modern education, they are creating twinkling stars, millions. All useless for light. No light. And our Vedic civilization is, "Create one moon. That's all." That is sufficient. We respect, therefore, ācāryas—Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya—not the so-called voted leaders. We don't care for them. What is their value? Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ (SB 2.3.19). You say: "Oh, they are being liked, eulogized, by so many hundreds and thousands," but what these hundreds and thousands of people are? Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-khara. They're kept in ignorance like dogs, hogs, camels and asses. This propaganda should go on by the ISKCON movement. Bombay is the nicest place. Invite them. Convince them. We have got answer for everyone, however big scientist, big philosopher, big politician. Bhāgavata has answered everyone. How selected animals' name has been given. This is Bhāgavata. How the comparison is perfect. I have tried to explain why a particular animal has been selected.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That purport is very clear.
Prabhupāda: So the sum and substance is that I have got the opportunity of human form, everyone, and they should not be kept in the same animal consciousness. This is civilization. They should be raised to the standard of inquiring, athāto brahma jijñāsā. That is civilization. This, civilization? Keep them in darkness? Hmm? Sanātana Gosvāmī went to Caitanya Mahāprabhu. The first question is, ke āmi kene āmāya jāre tāpa-traya (CC Madhya 20.102). "Sir, I was prime minister, and I was very much eulogized by the people as paṇḍita." Grāmya-vyavahāre paṇḍita tāi satya māni. "These village people, they call me paṇḍita, and I also, such a fool, I accept, 'Yes, I am paṇḍita. Yes.' But factually, if I inquire, 'What kind of paṇḍita?' then āpanāra hitāhita kichui nā jāni: 'I am such a learned paṇḍita that I do not know what is the ultimate goal of my life. I am such a paṇḍita.' Therefore I have come to You, Caitanya Mahāprabhu. You say what is my ultimate goal of life." This is approaching guru, not that, "I am paṇḍita, I am brahmin, or minister. Why shall I go to learn? I can teach everyone whatever nonsense I know. Let them . . ." What is that injunction? That emasculation? That Sanjay Gandhi became?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, sterilization.
Prabhupāda: Rascal, he's a boy, and he thought by sterilization the country will be delivered. Just see. By force. He thought . . . he became learned leader in one day, and he thought, "This will be sacrifice now." This is going on. "Because I am Indira Gandhi's son, I am perfect." Nature's law—"Yes, you are perfect. It is all right. But I'll kick out in a moment—finished."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Perfect rascal.
Prabhupāda: Bās. They do not know. Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate (BG 3.27). So at least in India these things should be stopped. That is my ambition. India cannot go in that way. We have got so much stock of knowledge. Bhārata-bhūmite haila (CC Adi 9.41). That I want. Others rascals may be misled, but in India at least there must be an ideal class. That I want. Why India's name should be defamed, that they are following in the same blind man's way? Therefore I repeatedly said that, "I invite you all. Come. Join. Understand." What is this nonsense? "Health. What will be the health?" But where is your health, nonsense? You are going to die next moment. And "WHO"? What is that "WHO"?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That Rajneesh.
Prabhupāda: Huh? No, no, that . . .
Indian man (2): Question last night.
Prabhupāda: United Nation, WHO.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. World Health Organization.
Prabhupāda: World Health Organization. Rascal, who is healthy? Everyone is going to die. "World Health Organization." They are manufacturing. They do not think that, "Where is health?" Such foolish things are going on all over the world. So organize something reality and spread, slow but sure.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We shouldn't be impatient to compromise just to . . .
Prabhupāda: There is no question of becoming impatient. You have got diamond. No buyer of diamond—that does not mean you have to throw it away.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And sell something less.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Diamond is diamond. It must be purchased by the suitable customer. Because there is no customer I shall throw it away? So we have got diamond. It is not possible that everyone will purchase it, but there must be diamonds. People must know that, "Here is diamond. If I want it, I must pay the proper price." That I want to establish. Why India's culture should be lost in this way, in the wilderness? I am not cheap patriot like Gandhi and . . . I want to give Indian culture to the whole world. I'm not going to cheat people, taking Bhagavad-gītā and speaking all nonsense. I want to present Bhagavad-gītā as it is. That is my mission. Why shall I cheat you, a gentleman? Baat-cheet kuch samajh me aa raha hai. (Are you able to understand the dialogue?)
Indian man (1): Ha ji. (Yes sir.) We'll try to follow your message properly.
Prabhupāda: Boliye, mataji theek-thaak hain? (So, is your mother keeping good health?) Why India's such big culture should be lost for the matter of these rascal leaders? This should be stopped. As Kṛṣṇa says, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma (BG 4.13). There must be ideal brahmin, ideal kṣatriya, ideal vaiśya, as Kṛṣṇa says. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. It is all-inclusive. Economic question? Annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14). Grow food. Practical. Just like when I was going to the paṇḍāls, millions of clerks were coming—"Education. Educated." And who is growing food? And they have to be provided in these pigeonholes and depend on ration. Is that civilization? And throngs of people are coming, just like machine, ants. Ants are coming. I saw like that. And go to the village side—all vacant land. Nobody's interested to produce food. Everyone is interested to live within the city, in these pigeonholes, and go to the cinema and go to the brothel, go to the club and learn how to drink, how to become gentleman. Is that civilization? Human life's aim is lost. You do not know why you are going to the office, why you are eating, why you are . . . keeping them all pet animal's mentality, doggish mentality. We have explained. University education means doggish mentality. Unless he becomes a dog, there is no food. No, the dog goes . . .
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Wagging it's tail.
Prabhupāda: "Give me some food." "Hut hut hut!" Then another animal. And as soon as you give some food, oh, so many—"ka-ka-ka-ka-ka-ka-ka." For five hundred posts, 300,000 applications. Did you see that?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Coming at Churchgate.
Prabhupāda: No, there was a newspaper publication. For some post there is five hundred posts vacant.
Indian man (1): Oh, yes I saw that. For application for a job, five jobs and five thousand people applied.
Prabhupāda: Five thousand. Is that education? Better not to be educated. Those who are not educated, they purchase ten rupees' worth of potato and sit down anywhere, and half . . . (laughter) Five rupees. Yes.
Indian man (1): All vegetable are . . .
Prabhupāda: You take some dāl. Go to house to house, dāl. They have no scarcity. And after spending so much money, living at the cost of fathers, mothers—unemployed. No job. No food. Then plan something: Naxalite, this party, that party. Join some political movement and help Indira Gandhi. They are paid to make propaganda. They are paid. And they earn money by smuggling.
Indian man (1): But that all has vanished now. That plan has failed now completely.
Prabhupāda: Not failed. Another man will come. Because unemployment is there. Practically, when we were boys, children, we were purchasing mustard oil, eight annas for two-half, two-half only, kilo, first class. In Calcutta, Kanpur mustard oil. So my father would give me eight annas. I shall go to the shop and purchase. Now that quality, even taking it . . . he's now selling thirteen rupees per kilo. Will the change of government bring this thirteen rupees to three annas? Then what is the benefit? The same stool, this side or that side. People are not going to get any relief by this change of government. So we are not concerned about thirteen rupees or three annas or . . . some way or other, people are getting their things. That's all right. But the real loss is to remain in animal mentality and forget the aim of life. That is the real loss. Kṛṣṇa says plainly,
- aśraddadhānāḥ puruṣā
- dharmasyāsya parantapa
- māṁ aprāpya nivartante
- (BG 9.3)
"This Bhagavad-gītā that I am speaking, if one is not interested to hear it or to take it, then result will be he'll not get Me." "So what is loss if I don't get You?" No, mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani: "Then go again to the cycle of birth and death." That's it. That is nature's law. If my next life I become a worm, then it will take millions of years to evolve, again come to the human standard. How I am lost. That they do not know. It is clearly said, mām aprāpya: "By not getting Me." "So what is loss if I don't get Kṛṣṇa?" No, mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani. That you cannot check. You have to die. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). You have to accept another body. Then you go on. Why this human form of life should be lost in this way? At least to try to give this knowledge to the people in general is para-upakāra. This is para-upakāra. And that is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's gift. India can especially do it.
- bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra
- janma sārthaka kari
- (CC Adi 9.41)
Kuch samajhao ye moorkh log ko, (We must explain all this to the foolish people.) (break) . . . there and some great man, not that they think bad. And if somebody checks me, how great enemy he is.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The natural tendency of the people here is to be God conscious, but the government is artificially checking. Whether this new government will be any different?
Prabhupāda: No. The same fools, rascals.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So we have to be very strong in our center here in Bombay.
Prabhupāda: We are for everyone. We are not for any nation, any particular person.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Our preaching has to be so strong, that it will counteract the government's preaching, the movies and all these other Kali-yuga things.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. All influences.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I wanted to know how . . . last night were you having any difficulty? Feeling any difficulty?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Passing . . . (break)
Prabhupāda: Not this section, this nation, this religion. No, not like that. They are going to die, and they're organizing "health." Just see their intelligence. Butchers' health organization. A butcher is going to kill the animal tomorrow, and today he's seeing that health is . . . healthy is animal. This is . . . so there is a health organization, WHO? World Health Organization?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. WHO. Geneva.
Prabhupāda: A butchers' health organization. Take these ideas all, there. Everything is there, already mentioned. Cultivate. Try to give Kṛṣṇa in every . . . let everyone come, stay with us, learn this art, preach all over the world. And Bombay is city where you'll get all kind of help. Besides that, we shall get help from all over the world. But do it very cautiously, thoroughly. Don't take it as insignificant. Very important. I am talking of this Māyāpur. So this is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. Bhārata-bhūmite haila manuṣya (CC Adi 9.41). Why He's stressing bhārata-bhūmi? Yes. It is a fact. Real knowledge is here, Bhagavad-gītā, speaking Kṛṣṇa Himself. Why such knowledge should be denied? Is that all right?
Pañcadraviḍa: To lose it? No.
Pañcadraviḍa: To lose this knowledge? No, it's not all right.
Prabhupāda: People are in darkness. To keep them like dogs, hogs, camels, and take vote from them and become a leader . . . nobody protested that we call all the men dogs, hogs, camels. Nobody came forward that, "You are using very strong words." It's a fact.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They agree.
Hṛdayānanda: They were applauding your lecture last night.
Prabhupāda: Our Tamāla Kṛṣṇa appreciated very much.
Hṛdayānanda: Tamāla Kṛṣṇa?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, I loved that lecture.
Hṛdayānanda: It was wonderful last night.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I told Prabhupāda the lecture was like atom bomb.
Prabhupāda: Yes. He told like that. (chuckles)
Hṛdayānanda: Said atheistic leaders are like animals, stronger animals.
Prabhupāda: Yes, big animal.
Hṛdayānanda: They especially liked your idea of American money and Indian culture.
Hṛdayānanda: They applauded for that.
Prabhupāda: That is my mission. I am doing that. I am bringing money from America. Nobody's paying me. It is not joke. Ten lakhs of rupees, who brings?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Even big export companies don't bring so much.
Prabhupāda: And they'll be glad. They have got money and they are getting culture. I am trying for United Nation. That is real attempt of United Nation, not this United Nation—all rogues and thieves and cheaters, barking dogs. I am trying for the United Nation. Help me. This is real United Nation. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām (BG 18.54). It is United Nation. So I began this movement very humbly, loitering on the street of New York. Now it has come to this stage. Let us cooperate together nicely.
Hṛdayānanda: Your Bombay project very impressive. We've just taken a tour.
Prabhupāda: Therefore I persistently took that place. Nobody encouraged me. He is all. (laughter) Nobody helped me. I hesitated little bit, that "If I am persistent to take it, they will not cooperate. It may be failure." So still I took it. And only fifty thousand and one lakh of rupees I gave this thief Nair, "All right, take it. Come on. Whatever I have got, you take it." Still he thought, "Oh. I'll get money."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He had already played the trick with one man.
Prabhupāda: Still, I took the risk that, "I have no money. If he cheats me, that's all right, but let me attempt."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then you installed the Deity as soon as possible.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Immediately Akash Ganga left. All Kṛṣṇa's desire.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Everyone is appreciating how wonderful this project is, all of Bombay.
Prabhupāda: So much obstacles, one after another, one after another, one after another.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Kṛṣṇa would not leave.
Prabhupāda: No. That was my request, "Please sit down here tight. Then I shall do everything."
Pañcadraviḍa: Practically Girirāja has not left either.
Prabhupāda: Yes. He was not trembled in any circumstance. That is his qualification. That nasty, hot, mosquitoes. You also lived there. No gentleman can live.
Pañcadraviḍa: I lived there also, Śrīla Prabhupāda. So many rats.
Prabhupāda: Rats, mosquitoes and so much inconvenience. Had no place. Sometimes here, sometimes there, sometimes there.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You were also so inconvenienced. You had to move. One time you were living in that . . .
Prabhupāda: But you . . . for me you make good arrangement wherever I live, that's all. But I know how you were living in that nasty hut, full of dirty things, mosquito, rats, dropping of water. And Nair is attacking, Municipality is attacking.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You always said that we were so trained that we would even live on the roadside.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. That you are trained. (laughs) You don't care for this palace or underneath a tree.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Formerly we were living like that as hippies, and now we live like that to serve you.
Prabhupāda: I was living in Rādhā-Dāmodara temple. It was not a palace. But before that, I was living in a palace. That is Keśī-ghāṭa. But this gosāi called me that, "You live here?" And "All right," Svarūpa Dāmodara Gosvāmī's, er, yes, Jīva Gosvāmī's place. "Let me go there." Now organize. Make very good plan that our Bombay temple will be always crowded with thousands of men, and some program must go on.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You mentioned the other day that five hundred devotees should always be there.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. We have got place.
Prabhupāda: We have got place. All right.
Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: So enthusiastic. All young men.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Our enthusiasm is coming from you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. We're simply enthusiastic coming from you.
Prabhupāda: I am old man.
Hṛdayānanda: Oh, Prabhupāda!
Pañcadraviḍa: Nava-yauvana. (end)