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770228 - Conversation A - Mayapur
Prabhupāda: ... make there the varṇāśrama established, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra—division, scientific division of the society. Ideal state. Just like the legislative assembly, they should be composed of men with complete brahminical culture. And the ministers, president, they should be kṣatriya, and the productive, vaiśyas, and balance śūdra, worker. Unless an ideal class of men is on the top of the state to give advice—just like Britishers, they assemble Parliament—there cannot be any improvement to the human society. All nonsense and rascals, simply by votes go to be member of the Parliament, like that. What they know? What they'll do? The whole world is mismanaged because there is no brahminical culture. Namo brahmaṇya-devāya go-brāhmaṇa-hitāya ca, jagad-dhitāya kṛṣṇāya govindā... (Viṣṇu Purāṇa 1.19.65). I am proposing this because Kṛṣṇa consciousness means namo brahmaṇya-devāya go-brāhmaṇa-hitāya ca. That must be... The state must be in favor of brahminical culture and cow protection. Then everything will be all right. So Manipur is small state. If they agree, the leaders of the... It is not politics; it is betterment of the situation. And without brahminical culture, all these third class, fourth class, loafer class, simply by votes, hooks and crooks, and becomes president, Nixon and so on. Where is the betterment? It will never be.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All bluffers.
Prabhupāda: All. So Manipur is a small state. If it is possible... Hmm?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So I should ask some of them to...
Prabhupāda: Hmm. If some of the leaders may come and see me. Just like the governor of Chandigarh. He's nice man. He came to see me in his governmental position, with his aide-de-camp, car and men. So I think Manipuri people... And it is a Vaiṣṇava state, why not make it Kṛṣṇa conscious? They are already Kṛṣṇa conscious. Make it in a systematic way.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: These chief minister, they claim... They're called R.K.s, means rāja-kumāras. Claim to be the descendants of the...
Prabhupāda: Babhruvāhana. Then he can do that. He can do that. And what is the wrong? Suppose the legislators become first-class brāhmaṇa, so what is the wrong there? Hmm?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. In Manipur, it's not so much influenced yet from outside civilization.
Prabhupāda: Therefore I suggest. They are Vaiṣṇavas. They can take it and show an ideal state in the world. Then others may follow.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Every day in the radio, they have this Caitanya-caritāmṛta reading at one o'clock.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: In the radio, all Manipur radio, is this Caitanya-caritāmṛta. They read Bengali. Somebody... One reads and another translates. It is a regular feature. And Mahābhārata, Rāmāyaṇa. These are radio programs.
Prabhupāda: Just see. So why not? I may go or not go, but let the leaders take up this process to make Manipur an ideal state of Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's already practically... It's already a lot of Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. And they are coming from Babhruvāhana. Babhruvāhana is the son of Arjuna.
Brahmānanda: They have much farming there.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is wanted. Farming is wanted. What is this nonsense industry? When I passed through Berkeley and New York, really hellish, these buildings. Some of them are finished, all broken. Similarly London also. This civilization has no value. It is a demonic civilization. Jagataḥ ahitāya. Find out this, Sixteenth. Ugra-karma, jagataḥ ahitāya.
- etāṁ dṛṣṭim avaṣṭabhya
- naṣṭātmāno 'lpa-buddhayaḥ
- prabhavanty ugra-karmāṇaḥ
- kṣayāya jagato 'hitāḥ
- (BG 16.9)
"Following such conclusions, the demoniac, who are lost to themselves and who have no intelligence, engage in unbeneficial, horrible works meant to destroy the world."
Prabhupāda: That's it. This is going on. And what is their prakāra? Kāma. But simply sense gratification. But previous to this verse?
- asatyam apratiṣṭhaṁ te
- jagad āhur anīśvaram
- kim anyat kāma-haitukam
- (BG 16.8)
Prabhupāda: Before that.
Hṛdayānanda: The verse before?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Etāṁ dṛṣṭim avaṣṭabhya.
- etāṁ dṛṣṭim avaṣṭabhya
- naṣṭātmāno 'lpa-buddhayaḥ
- prabhavanty ugra-karmāṇaḥ
- kṣayāya jagato 'hitāḥ
- (BG 16.9)
And the next verse has a kāmam.
Prabhupāda: What is that?
- kāmam āśritya duṣpūraṁ
- mohād gṛhītvāsad-grāhān
- pravartante 'śuci-vratāḥ
- (BG 16.10)
Prabhupāda: Asad-grāhān: "There is no God. By science we shall do everything. We shall..." What is this? A mad, crazy fellow. And this is going on all over. "Test tube. We shall... Test tube." Simply set of madmen. And influencing innocent. The rascal, whole civilization, they are. It is a horrible condition. All rascals. And the big rascals, they are enjoying. Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ (SB 2.3.19). Just like a big rascal, a lion is very big, important thing in the forest. What is this? He's animal. So they create importance of this animal. One big animal is being praised by a small animal. That's all. But the whole civilization is animal. And because the small animals are praising the big animals, does it mean it is human society? That is going on. The Mr. Nixon, (laughs) he's an animal, and Mr. John is praising him. That's all. Both of them are animals. Mūḍha. Big animals and small animals. That's all. So we have to stop this. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. So am I right when I speak, say like that?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, yes.
Prabhupāda: You are all intelligent.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Svarūpa Dāmodara Prabhu was mentioning that he held a conference in Delhi. Maybe he could tell you about that.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, I went to the All-India Institute of Medical Sciences. It's a big medical school in India. So I spoke in the... They have a department called Biophysics. So I presented our philosophy, science in the Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The head of the department was... His name was R. K. Mishra. So he's actually quite well known international figure.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: He had a lot of grants from the United States. From Europe also.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: He had grants, money, coming from the United States to support his research. So he was on opposite side, but we had a very interesting discussion. And he told me later on that he was a keen follower of Śaṅkarācārya. I said, "Why?" because I was speaking, "There are innumerable lives." I was giving examples that we are not as one, but there are innumerable forms of life depending on the level of consciousness, giving examples, scientific examples. Then he answered that traditionally his forefathers, his parents, his grandfathers, became followers of Śaṅkarācārya, so he became some sort of addicted to it, but he said he's not one hundred percent follower of Śaṅkarācārya.
Prabhupāda: Individual. Where there is question of mixing? Śaṅkarācārya's mistake is that the spirit is a mixture, and in māyā state, they're divided. Is it not? So when the division is finished, then it is spirit. But Kṛṣṇa does not say that. He says in the past we are individual, at present we are individual, and in future we shall continue to be individual.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Seems that we have a good field in medicine, speaking with doctors. It's very interesting. And because they deal with life, so my first question is "What is life?" I just ask them, "What is your concept of life?" And they become very...
Prabhupāda: Concept of life is clear in the Bhagavad-gītā. That is also one of the elements, but superior element. The gross earth, water, air, fire, ether, even mind, intelligence, ego, they are inferior. And there is another superior item. That is living entity. It is clearly said. Jīva-bhūtāṁ mahā-bāho (BG 7.5). And that is important because that living entity is handling this inferior. Very clear. Just like a good machine. That machine as it is, it is not important. A living entity has handled it. By handling, the machine is prepared, and by handling it is important. So who is superior: this matter or the person who is handling? And it's clear—yayedaṁ dhāryate jagat (BG 7.5). Jīva-bhūtāṁ mahā-bāho yayedaṁ dhāryate. It is clear. And similarly, whole machine must be handled by a living creature. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carāca... (BG 9.10). Clear. How you can deny it? Taking this whole cosmic manifestation as machine... It is machine. We admit that. But it is being handled by a living being, the supreme living being. That is God. But they have no intelligence to understand. Such a rascal civilization. Practically we are seeing. Mūḍhaḥ nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam (BG 7.13). (bird chirping loudly) Stop.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They were very thankful for the lecture. They actually made comment, saying that this is the strongest statement that they ever heard in the department, that such a scientific comparative study. 'Cause I showed these charts that we have.
Prabhupāda: That is very encouraging. So pursue this method with your assistants. That is our challenge. That will enhance the importance of our movement.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They even suggested that in the future, if we had any plan like that, we should just let them know for about two or three weeks ahead so they can arrange others also in the other departments.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Do immediately. Your business is that. You take these scientists and other intelligent... Everyone is intelligent, but especially to convince them. "Birds of the same feather." Otherwise they'll not mix. We are already haṁsas, but to mix with the crow, we shall dress ourself like a crow. (laughter)
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Just like I went with pant and like...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Otherwise the crows will make a noise, "Kaw, kaw, kaw, kaw, kaw." (laughter) Because this whole society is full of crows. They are not even nice birds. So what can be done?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's very encouraging.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Especially in India...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's my first experience. The man whom I met in Bombay is the head of the chemistry section of the Bhabha Atomic Research Center where they made this atomic bomb.
Prabhupāda: Fedder. Fedder Road.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: In Trombay.
Prabhupāda: Oh, Trombay. Oh, yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. So I went there, and I had three and a half hours' discussion.
Prabhupāda: Hmm. Very good.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But he was on the other side.
Prabhupāda: Opposite side.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. (laughs)
Prabhupāda: No, no. Let them demon, but we are talking like gentleman.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: He's the only man that I knew from outside, from the (indistinct), from the Scientific Journal. His name was one of the editorial boards. They have also an international society for the study of the origin of life from chemicals, and he's the...
Prabhupāda: Oh. Oh.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So I specifically chose him because I knew his name, because it was there. So I made an appointment on the telephone. He was real nice on the phone. He even wanted to send his car to pick me up from the temple.
Prabhupāda: Oh, then very respectful, yes. Very respectful. (laughter)
Svarūpa Dāmodara: When I went there I started talking a little about Hare Kṛṣṇa.Then he immediately he said he didn't like Hare Kṛṣṇa people. So I said...
Prabhupāda: So he knows Hare Kṛṣṇa people.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: He knew that I was from Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: No... And he said, "I do not like Hare Kṛṣṇa people"? They said?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: He said that two times some of the devotees approached him, and he said they are very arrogant, and he expressed some ideas, and he was not so much favorable.
Brahmānanda: This was here in India or in America?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: In Bombay. This was in Bombay. Then I told him that "Let's forget about the religion now. Let's talk about science."
Prabhupāda: (chuckles) Then that is all right. Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Then we started talking about the concept of life. So he would say that life is just combination of molecules, and I started asking questions because I knew all what he was doing. I was following his papers. But he didn't know what he was doing. Then it came up to the point that he agreed to the limitations that we have in so many words that we say, but actually it's not true.
Prabhupāda: He admitted.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. But still, he said that this is the best theory that they have at this time. So this is the only time they get the chance of doing something, so they want to continue whether it comes out right or wrong, but just some sort of a game.
Hari-śauri: They can't afford to lose their grants.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: He said in about twenty years...
Prabhupāda: Again time, time-taking. (laughter)
Svarūpa Dāmodara: ...the matter is completely to be decided. He said, "Either religion wins or we win." He said, "It will be decided pretty soon." I think it is already decided, because we promised about ten years ago that those chemicals, if we make those, then we'll have life in a test tube. But actually we have all those chemicals made. So I said, "We have the know-hows. We have the equipments. We have all the chemicals. But still we can't do it." So that means it's..., cannot be done.
Prabhupāda: It is failure. You cannot do.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, in principle he agreed that science plays...
Prabhupāda: And Bhagavad-gītā clearly said it is different thing completely. It is not matter. Nainaṁ chindanti śastrāṇi. Where is that thing which cannot be cut into pieces? Bring that, any scientist. Bring that thing which cannot be cut by scientific method. Bring that thing which cannot be burned. That is stated. Find out the verse. You cannot neglect the statement of Kṛṣṇa.
- nainaṁ chindanti śastrāṇi
- nainaṁ dahati pāvakaḥ
- na cainaṁ kledayanty āpo
- na śoṣayati mārutaḥ
- (BG 2.23)
"The soul can never be cut into pieces by any weapon, nor can he be burned by fire nor moistened by water nor withered by the wind."
Prabhupāda: So where is that thing? Bring. Hmm?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is also our conclusion, that... Especially it is very useful in India to refer to Bhagavad-gītā. I bring up Bhagavad-gītā. I said, "If this can be done, then Bhagavad-gītā will be wrong."
Prabhupāda: Yes. Prove that.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So it's not possible. So I also spoke in an Indian school in Bombay. There are about some three hundred students, plus professors. We even had a short kīrtana, Girirāja and about four, five devotees, selling little books outside. So there was... They wanted us start with a kīrtana. So we started Hare Kṛṣṇa, and then they themselves started. The students started leading kīrtana. And I spoke on the... They all saw all the nice equipment...
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa-bhakti nitya-siddha (CC Madhya 22.107). This propensity is there already. We are simply awakening. That's all.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: I found that in India, though there are some people like that, but they are not as arrogant as... They are a little...
Prabhupāda: Because background is Kṛṣṇa conscious. Sukṛtina. Sukṛtina. They're not so sinful. In India they're not so sinful as the Western. Sukṛtina. Catur-vidhā bhajante māṁ janāḥ sukṛtina arjuna (BG 7.16). And in the Western countries they are simply acting sinfully. Now Kīrtanānanda was prosecuted because he is not killing cows.
Devotee: He's not what?
Hari-śauri: Not killing his cows.
Brahmānanda: By having them grow old, they were saying that "This is cruelty. You should kill them."
Prabhupāda: This is their civilization, that "You are not killing? You are cruel." (laughs) Just see. Christ said, "Thou shall not kill." That is cruel. How can you pull on this civilization? But this is their religion. So what kind of persons they are?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: There's some misunderstanding. When I came from New York, there was one Christian minister. He was going to Bangalore, India, but I was all the way from New York to Delhi with him. We sat together side by side, and since he was a minister, he was interested in what I was doing, so we started talking about philosophy and the science of the self. So I asked that "Mostly we are told that in Christianity, many people don't believe that there is soul in animals." He said same thing, and he was a minister. In animals, plants...
Prabhupāda: Big animal. He's a big animal. Animals... He is also animal, but big animal. That is what he... That I have already said: small animals. Śva-viḍ... What is that? Viḍ-varā... Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ (SB 2.3.19). He's a puruṣa, he's a very exalted person, but he's a paśu, animal, because he does not know anything about spiritual life.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: If people know some of these very basic principle of life, that they all the living entities like animals and these things, they are all...
Prabhupāda: Superior than the matter. That how you can deny it? Kṛṣṇa says clearly, apareyam itas tu viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parāṁ, jīva-bhūtāṁ mahā-bāho (BG 7.5). They cannot... They're so dull, they cannot understand it.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Their heads are filled with dung.
Prabhupāda: Two things are there already. Any layman can understand. A person living—a person dead. So why he is dead? Something is missing. So that missing element is important or this body is important? These rascals cannot understand even, so dull brain.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: A common farmer here can understand that.
Prabhupāda: Yes. These two things are there: living force and the body. The body is moving because the living force is there. So which one is important, the body or the living force? Without living force, the same body, the same hand, legs, everything, face, everything is there. Kick on his face—no response. And when he is living, touch his hair—"Oh, who are you? Why you are touching me?" (laughter) So which is important? The consciousness is important or this body? Such a rascal, they cannot understand it. And we have to deal with this civilization. Mūḍha, rascals.
Rūpānuga: From Svarūpa Dāmodara Prabhu's experience, it appears that India is the best place to begin our attack on science.
Rūpānuga: Because we can recruit Indian scientists, I think, and then to...
Rūpānuga: ...America we can make some headway. Because America, the scientists are very arrogant and dogmatic. They're not so receptive. Here there is...
Prabhupāda: Big, big animals. Big animals. They are animals, but big animals, because they have got money. Yes. "Money is sweeter than honey."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That Bombay auditorium, theater, Prabhupāda was saying, could be used for so many meetings.
Bali-mardana: Meetings. Conferences. Scientific conferences.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Simply.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: We can give very nice slide show there.
Prabhupāda: So you make Bombay your headquarter. India means Bombay. And from Bombay you go and come. Make this...
Bali-mardana: In the West now Indian scientists have a big name because they are making...
Prabhupāda: And recruit Indian scientists. Make it. It will be very nice. Let us go to Bombay and organize.
Rūpānuga: Because India now has the bomb, they are respected.
Bali-mardana: Atom bomb.
Prabhupāda: No, Indian people are more intelligent. There is no doubt about it. I... At least I see that during British period there were so many railway collisions. Now it is not there.
Bali-mardana: So many what?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Railway collisions, and now there is none with the Indian drivers. Oh, yeah. We don't find... Although the roads are horrible here and there's no lights, there are very few accidents.
Prabhupāda: That I have studied already, that British period, occasionally so many railway accidents. But the Indian people, since svarāja, I see no railway accidents. And they are being managed, these railway lines, by śūdra class, less-intelligent class. So they are so intelligent.
Rūpānuga: Compared to the British.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They sent their best men here.
Prabhupāda: The fireman, the Indian driver, the signal man, they are not very high class men.
Rūpānuga: In America the scientists are like the blacksmiths. They're like just blacksmiths. And in India the scientists may have some culture...
Prabhupāda: Blacksmith or black snake?
Rūpānuga: Both. (laughs) But at least in India...
Prabhupāda: So organize in India. Make your headquarters in India.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa already told me that he will give us two rooms.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Two, three, as many rooms, you take.
Hari-śauri: The whole building. (laughs)
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That theater is very prominent.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Bombay's very nice.
Prabhupāda: Very nice? Yes. Now see. (laughter) He is one of the person who helped you. When I went to Africa I asked Brahmānanda, "Are you going to support me?" He said, "Yes, I'll do." Then I signed. Otherwise I hesitated, that "These people are denying property..."
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The people are envious of Bombay, especially this man, Sada. He's head of the Trombay that I talked. He was the... Everybody knew about our temple.
Prabhupāda: That is a good advertisement.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's not even complete yet, but already everybody knows about it. So popular.
Prabhupāda: And there is a big history behind this. (laughs) They wanted to throw away Rādhā-Rāsa-vihārījī. And I prayed always, "If You are thrown away, then it is..., my life is thrown away. You must stay here. It is a great insult." So He has not moved an inch.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: I've taken all the parts of the picture of the temple, because I want to show to Manipur ministers, so that...
Prabhupāda: So, first thing make your headquarter in Bombay, and make Manipur a Vaiṣṇava state. And recruit all scientists. And then attack these rascals, big animals. Shoot them, big animals.
Hari-śauri: Like a scientific safari.
Prabhupāda: Therefore they are opposing. Intelligent men, they are seeing that "This movement will finish our civilization." They are afraid. They have already said, "It is increasing like epidemic, and if we don't check them, within ten years they'll take the government."
Hari-śauri: A government official in Houston said it on the TV.
Bali-mardana: They are afraid for their lives.
Prabhupāda: So I am very much attached to that palace.
Bhagavān: We are very much attached to you.
Prabhupāda: Hmm. Come on. Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma. Jaya. Very nice. (someone showing pictures?) Jaya Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma. We have got Balarāma, the most powerful being, so we have no fear. Balarāma. Nāyam ātmā bala-hīnena labhyaḥ. Bala-hīnena labhyaḥ. "One who is not supported by Balarāma, he cannot understand, cannot come to the spiritual platform." Na medhayā na bahunā śrutena (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 1.2.23). By intelligence one cannot. He must be supported by Balarāma, big brother of Kṛṣṇa. (laughter)
Svarūpa Dāmodara: When I came today from Krishnagar to here, Navadvīpa ghāṭa, on the bus, I was speaking about going to Gauḍīya Maṭha, and somebody almost gave a lecture, said that... They were speaking in Bengali, but I knew what they were speaking. They were telling about ISKCON, about Abhay Caraṇāravinda's mission.
Prabhupāda: Jaya. (laughs)
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They were saying, "There are things going on and we must also go there." Somebody was advising people to come. (break)
Prabhupāda: And on this Kṛṣṇa culture, the India was ruling all over the world. During Parīkṣit Mahārāja time there was only one flag. And now go to the United States organization—simply flag increasing, "United."
Brahmānanda: In Africa they just made a new country. It's the smallest country in the world. It's one little island. Now it's independent country.
Prabhupāda: This is going on. So for the time being let this program: we go to Vṛndāvana, and from Vṛndāvana to Bombay, and then we make program there. Is that all right? If possible, invite some ministers.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But if you were to go to Manipur we have to make arrangements.
Prabhupāda: We can go from Bombay. What is the difficulty? From here or Bombay, after all, we have to go by plane, so there is no difficulty. Manipur going, there is no direct plane from Bombay to Manipur?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: No. From Bombay to Calcutta, Calcutta to Imphala, Manipur.
Prabhupāda: So that is not difficult. We can come to Calcutta and go to Calcutta, there. But if you organize Bombay center, recruit scientists, hold meeting, that is very nice proposal. There must be some state, ideal state. Just like the Russia is Communist state, and they're making nice propaganda, similarly we must have a Kṛṣṇa conscious state. What do you think?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: That is example.
Rūpānuga: A good example is needed. A good example.
Prabhupāda: Either Manipur, anywhere, but we must have now a Kṛṣṇa conscious state. And we shall show how ideal state, wherever it is possible. I am not speaking particularly of Manipur, but Manipur, there is good chance. But we must have a Kṛṣṇa conscious state. So go. Take prasādam.
Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end)