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770226 - Conversation - Mayapur
Prabhupāda: So this... Very pleasant. Very pleasant. (break) (indistinct) And the other thing is the owner of the body. So which is important, the body or the owner of the body? You or I...(?) Which is important?
Indian man (1): Actually, I have thought, I have returned many times, because I did not want any material gain, but was my firm faith, that what attracted me was the worth not of my personal ability but abilities of many other people.
Prabhupāda: No, no. We have to understand the subject matter for which we are working. Personal benefit and extended personal benefit, there is no difference by quality. Generally they take it that "Why I am working for my family? If I work for my community, or if I work for my society..." Extended. So the quality does not change.
Indian man (1): The quality is... But even dharma many come, the mind should not be idle. Even if you go...
Prabhupāda: Mind cannot be idle. That is also foolishness.
Indian man (1): Even if you go for religious sevā, that you go for some benefit, not otherwise, either for yourself or for the world.
Prabhupāda: But we must know what benefit is essential. Therefore I am trying to explain that there is body and there is the owner of the body. So which is important? There is this dress and the owner of the dress. If you simply take care of the dress and do not take care of the owner of the dress, do you think that is very good intelligence?
Indian man (1): Sir, taking care of the society, of the countries, there is little difference?
Prabhupāda: Society means... Suppose you are taking care of your own dress and if you take care, all the men sitting here, their dress, you become washerman. That's all. (laughter) This is your improvement. Now you are soaping your own dress, personal, and if you soap the dresses of all these people, then you are elevated to the position of a washerman. If you are satisfied to become a washerman, that is very good. But that is not very important thing. Real important thing is whether you should take care of the dress or the owner of the dress. That is to be... So people are interested to become washerman, but they are not interested that we have to take care of the owner of the dress. That is useless. So therefore spiritual knowledge begins when you understand that this body is not important; the owner of the body is important. Then spiritual knowledge begins. Otherwise, simply to take care of one's own dress and to take care of many others' dress, that is not improvement.
Indian man (2): But who was responsible for bringing this body into existence?
Prabhupāda: You are. You are. You have selected your own dress.
Indian man (2): The owner?
Prabhupāda: Just like you are in white dress and he is in brown dress. That is your selection. You like this white dress; he likes that brown dress. So for the dress, you are responsible. That is you.
Indian man (2): Who is "you"?
Prabhupāda: You are... Therefore you do not know who you are.
Indian man (2): That is what I am asking.
Indian man (2): And the owner of the body, is He responsible for this body also?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.
Indian man (2): If that be so, then why should there be a conflict?
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Indian man (2): Why should there be a conflict between the two?
Devotee: Conflict between the soul and the material body.
Prabhupāda: There is no conflict. I am saying, talking, that you are..., you are taking care of this dress. That's good. But simply for taking care of the dress if you forget yourself, then you are a foolish. That is my point.
Indian man (2): But there is no conflict.
Prabhupāda: There is no conflict.
Indian man (2): Then we should not be afraid of this body also.
Prabhupāda: But people, people are interested with the dress only.
Indian man (2): I think that comes again to the...
Prabhupāda: That is foolishness. That is foolishness. Suppose you are driving one car. You are driving one car, and the car is also important, but you are not the car. But if you think that you are car, then you are a foolish. You have to take care of the car so far because it is plying, it is giving you service. You must keep in order, very cleanse. That's very nice. But if you simply absorb in the service of the car, you don't take care of yourself...
Indian man (2): The point is for ordinary men it is very difficult to conceive of a naked soul.
Prabhupāda: So ordinary man is foolish. Learned man is intelligent.
Indian man (2): But it is very difficult to think of a naked soul.
Prabhupāda: Not difficult. Naked, there is no question of... Naked soul is there, but you have no eyes to see it. Naked soul is there, but it is so small you cannot see it. The dimension of the naked soul is given in the śāstra: keśāgra-śata-bhāgasya śatadhā kalpitasya ca (CC Madhya 19.140), one ten-thousandth part of the tip of the hair. So it is not possible to see by your these present eyes. But there is. There is no doubt about it.
Indian man (1): How is it opened, the eyes?
Prabhupāda: By knowledge. Therefore... So therefore Kṛṣṇa giving you the knowledge. But that you have to hear. Knowledge which you cannot experience by your senses at the present moment you have to hear from the authority. Avan manasa-gocara. Which is beyond your mind and intelligence, you have to hear from the authority. Just like father. If one wants to know who is father, he cannot see it. He must know it from the authority—mother. Similarly, therefore called Vedic knowledge. Vedic knowledge means whatever is beyond the capacity of your senses, that you have to hear from the right source. Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). And that is the teaching in the Bhagavad-gītā. When the things became so complicated, Arjuna submitted to Kṛṣṇa, śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ prapannam (BG 2.7). And then He taught him Bhagavad-gītā. And the first teaching of Bhagavad-gītā is this, that you are not this body.
- dehino 'smin yathā dehe
- kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā
- tathā dehāntara-prāptir
- dhīras tatra na muhyati
- (BG 2.13)
Dhīra, one has to become, has to become sober. Then he'll understand. And if he remains restless, on the bodily platform, as the animals are... They cannot understand. They cannot understand. If you bring some dog and instruct the dog, "My dear dog, you are not this body," it is not possible. But dhīra, if one is not dog—he is human being—he can teach. Therefore this word is used, dhīra. Dhīras tatra na muhyati. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe (BG 2.13). So that is the beginning of spiritual life.
Guest (2): What is dhīra?
Prabhupāda: Dhīra means who is restful, not restless; dhīra, whose brain is cool, sober. Just like a high-court judge, he is sitting simply, and the cāparāsī, he is busy. The cāparāsī gets, say, two hundred rupees, and he gets five thousand rupees. But he is doing nothing, a dhīra, because his importance is many, many times greater than the cāparāsī. So dhīra means sober. If we become sober, not restless, then it is possible to understand. Dhīras tatra na muhyati. There are two classes: dhīra and adhīra. Adhīra means always foolishly busy, and dhīra means sober. He's trying to understand what is God. That is dhīra.
Indian man (1): That is actually what we have always taught, you know, to do it. Karmaṇy evādhikāras te (BG 2.47).
Prabhupāda: Yes. Karmaṇy evā...
Indian man (1): (Sanskrit)
Prabhupāda: No, simply you do not quote that verse. You first begin from A-B-C-D. Dhīras tatra na muhyati. Unless you begin A-B-C-D, you cannot go, immediately jump up to the M.A. class.
Indian man (1): No, that karma itself is not something...
Prabhupāda: No, why do you quote karma? Why you do not quote the beginning, the beginning of A-B-C-D? If you have no knowledge of the A-B-C-D, then karma... The monkey is also very busy, jumping, but as soon as a monkey comes, "Eh! Get out! Get out! Get out!" But he is thinking he's very busy. That..., such kind of karma will simply create disturbance. We must know what is karma. Karmaṇo hy api boddhavyam (BG 4.17). We should understand what is karma. So anyway...
Indian man (1): We are very grateful to you for your very kind work, but we have got something to do for ourself. (laughing)
Prabhupāda: (break) ...therefore writing so many books. Bhagavad-gītā As It Is we are presenting. (break) The Sanskrit verses you have written? Oh, very good. Hmm. Nice. You are studying Sanskrit?
Gopa-vṛndeśa: Yes, I work at the Press.
Jayatīrtha: He works in Los Angeles at the Press.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What is your name?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Gopa-vṛndeśa dāsa is his name.
Prabhupāda: Hmm. Done very nice. Hmm. Some others, they have opened account or...?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Other people? I don't think anyone has had an opportunity yet. So far, it's simply been exchanging money. The rate... (break)
Prabhupāda: It is said, imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ. (aside:) If there are outsiders, they should be given plate. (break) The dhīras tatra na muhyati (BG 2.13). Imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). These words are there. Actually, to understand this Kṛṣṇa philosophy, it is not for ordinary person.
Brahmānanda: What is the qualification for understanding?
Prabhupāda: These things are there. Imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ. The rājarṣi means the topmost class. Rāja means government or the king. So simply the government man or the king will not suffice. He must be ṛṣi, saintly person. So topmost man in the society, at the same time, he must be saintly. That is the qualification of understanding Bhagavad-gītā. Kṛṣṇa uses this word, imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ.
Brahmānanda: Sometimes we see that an Indian, he's living at least a more saintly life than the life that we have led, but sometimes we are more qualified to hear than some Indian men.
Prabhupāda: Yes, because you have got qualification—dhīra. What I say, you hear with patience. And those who are adhīra, they cannot. Sometimes... Aiye. (someone enters) You can come this side. (break) Two words is very important. One is, that in the beginning one must be dhīra, not restless. Restlessness is for the animal or a child. He is restless. He cannot understand. An animal—a cat and dog—sometimes they remain very silent before the master, but not always. Their habit is not silent. So this understanding, that "I am not this body," is not possible for, say, a restless person, that "I am not this body." It is specially mentioned in the Bhagavad-gītā, dhīra. He must not be a restless animal—always busy. Just like monkey. Monkey is always busy. But as soon as the monkey comes, everyone knows he is very busy. He can jump very nicely. And immediately they take a stick, "Get out! Get out! Get out!" Busy fool. Fool, if he remains little silent, so he does less harm. But if he is busy, he is more harmful. So this is the position at the present moment, that people are kept in the animal civilization and they are busy. So they are creating more harm. It is not for the good of the society. They are creating more harm. This dehātma-buddhi is the conception of the animals.
- yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke
- sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu bhauma ijya-dhīḥ
- yat-tīrtha-buddhiḥ salile na karhicij
- janeṣv abhijñeṣu sa eva go-kharaḥ
- (SB 10.84.13)
So this dehātma-buddhi, "I am this body," is very strong at the present. They think dehātma-buddhi, extended, is very good. And that I was speaking, that a person is taking care of his own body or own dress, but they say, "We shall not take care of my body but for others' body also—my son's body, my grandson's body, my relative's body." So that means extending the activities of taking care of the dress. So that I said, that a washerman is taking care of many people's dress, but that does not mean that he is very elevated man. He is nothing but a washerman. But people are interested to take care of the dress. This body is described in the Bhagavad-gītā as dress. Vāsāṁsi jīrṇāni yathā vihāya (BG 2.22). We are changing the dress. And so long we are interested with dress of the body, not of the body, so the person who has got this body will remain animal. Sa eva go-kharaḥ (SB 10.84.13).
So people are not prepared even to hear about this distinction, that "I am not this body; you are not this body." The modern civilization has trained up educated people in such a way that the more you think yourself, "I am this body—'I am American,' 'I am Indian,' 'I am brāhmaṇa,' 'I am this, I am that' "—and you feel and act like that and create trouble like that—then you are called civilized. Is it not? Hmm? This is the defect of modern civilization. The more you keep yourself in the darkness of accepting this body as yourself—national feeling, social feeling, family feeling, community feeling—then... But we are speaking from a different platform. Our movement is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So Kṛṣṇa begins His teaching from a different platform. He begins from the platform of the soul, dhīras tatra na muhyati. His teaching to Arjuna begins, first of all convincing him that "You are not this body." And He's describing the nature of the soul—na jāyate na mriyate vā kadācin na hanyate (BG 2.20)—in so many ways, adāhyo 'yam aśoṣyo 'yam, so many ways. Find out this verse. Who will find out? Hmm.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What is the verse, Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Brahmānanda: 2.13. 2.20.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: 2.20.
Harikeśa: Shall I read tadā kadācit? Nāyaṁ bhūtvā bhavitā vā na bhūyaḥ?
Prabhupāda: Hmm? (break)
- acchedyo 'yam adāhyo 'yam
- akledyo 'śoṣya eva ca
- nityaḥ sarva-gataḥ sthāṇur
- acalo 'yaṁ sanātanaḥ
- (BG 2.24)
"This individual soul is unbreakable and insoluble, and can be neither burned nor dried. He is everlasting, all-pervading, unchangeable, immovable and eternally the same."
Prabhupāda: Yes. This is the description of the soul. What is the first one?
Prabhupāda: Acchedyaḥ, yes. Acchedyo 'yam. Now, chedya means "which can be cut by..." Just like this is wood; it can be cut by the saw. This can be separated. Then? Acchedyo 'yam adāhyo 'yam. Adāhyaḥ. The wood can be burned. So it is denying, that "The soul cannot be cut and it cannot be burned." Then?
Prabhupāda: Akledyaḥ, that the wood, if you put into the water, it will be moist. But it is not... Soul never becomes moist. That means the five elements—earth, water, air, fire, ether—all these five elements can be cut, can be moistened, can be burned, can be dried up. But He is giving negative definition, that "Soul cannot be done like that." So therefore it is not fallible, material.
Indian man (3): Will you preach to your Gītā... (break)
Prabhupāda: (Hindi) The people cannot accept... (laughs) Therefore I said, dhīras tatra na muhyati (BG 2.13).
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They're too restless.
Prabhupāda: And therefore I say that education has been so wrongly given that they are restless like animals due to the modern civilization. The beginning of spiritual education they cannot accept. What they will make, further progress of spiritual life? Beginning, A-B-C-D, they are so restless, they cannot take. This is the position. Therefore I'm speaking that it is meant for the dhīra, for the rājarṣis. Not for the men who are like animals. Sa eva go-kharaḥ (SB 10.84.13). Their bodily conception is so strong that they cannot hear even what is said. They are so dull. Mandāḥ sumanda-matayo manda-bhāgyāḥ (SB 1.1.10).
Brahmānanda: It seems now that it's the people from the West who want to hear. Why is that?
Prabhupāda: Now, because they have now experience of the bodily comforts, and they have seen it that "Simply by bodily comfort we cannot be happy." They have come to this stage.
Lokanātha: It's fortune to take birth in the West now. It's fortunate to take birth in America or England? (laughter)
Prabhupāda: Not all. (laughter) Not all. The fortunate, those who are so fortunate, they are now opposing me. The Western people, they are now opposing this movement, so they are not fortunate. So everywhere there are fortunate and unfortunate. But mostly in this age they are unfortunate. Either in the Western countries or in this country, they are unfortunate mostly. They cannot understand. In India, at least those who are not very educated, mass of people, they believe transmigration of the soul. They very easily believe it, because culture is based on that, pūrva-janma paro janma. They believe that "If I act sinfully, then I'll have to suffer next life, and because I did not do properly, therefore I am suffering in this life." Still they believe. But the so-called educated people, they are trying to set aside this. They say "Superstition." And the leaders say that "India, giving more stress on the soul, not on the body, India's position is so degraded." This is the leaders' opinion. Big, big leaders, they think. Therefore the so-called leaders or learned scholars, they write notes on Bhagavad-gītā, but they never give any idea of spiritual life. They utilize Bhagavad-gītā for material end. This is going on. Just like our big leader, Gandhi. He was supposed to be very strict follower of Bhagavad-gītā, and he has never instructed about spiritual life.
Nārāyaṇa: Satsvarūpa Mahārāja was telling a story on the way back from the Ganges that you had said that Gandhi, he was supposed to be mahātmā, but after he won victory, independence, by his activities, then they said, "Now you can stop meat-eating. You can stop cow slaughter throughout India." He says, "No, no. How can we do this? The Muhammadans, the Muslims, they are eating meat."
Nārāyaṇa: So what kind of rājarṣi is this? (break)
Prabhupāda: There is heat and light. And as soon as after evening the sun is off, not from the sky but from our sight, there is darkness. So chi... This consciousness is the rays, or shining, of the soul. As soon as the soul is off from this body, the shining of the soul or consciousness is completely gone. Have you understood or not?
Indian man (3): (Bengali) (break)
Prabhupāda: (Bengali) (break) People have been trained up not to become sober.
Indian man (3): Sober.
Prabhupāda: Sober. Childish. And Vedic civilization is to teach the youngsters from the very beginning how to become sober—under restriction, under regulation, just to make him very sober. Brahmacārī guru-gṛhe vasan dāntaḥ. Dānta means sober. And where is our paṇḍita?
Lokanātha: Next room.
Prabhupāda: Call him. (break) Find out from your dictionary what is the meaning of dānta.
Prabhupāda: Vasan dānto guror hitam (SB 7.12.1). The word is used, dānta. Dānta means sober. Children are generally restless, and the brahmacārī-āśrama means to train him how to become peaceful. That is the first training, not that to make him very good scholar in grammar. It is not said there. That is later on. First thing is how to make him sober. What is that? Dānta?
Pradyumna: Dānta, from verbal root dan. "Tamed, broken in..."
Prabhupāda: Tame. Tame. Just see.
Prabhupāda: That's it.
Prabhupāda: This is the first training. Otherwise he'll not be able to advance.
Brahmānanda: He'll be animal.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The word "tamed" refers to animal.
Prabhupāda: Yes. This, the right... So generally, from the very beginning, they are not tame, so even if he is in older age he's the same untrained animal, dog. A dog, old dog or new dog, the same. (laughs) It doesn't mean that a dog has become old, he's now tame. No. Tame, that is another thing. It has to be trained. And that is possible for the human being. You cannot make animal dānta. That is not possible. So if a human being, from the very beginning of his life, he is not trained up to become restrained... There is another word?
Pradyumna: Yes, restrained. Subdued.
Prabhupāda: Subdued. So then there is no chance. Kancai no wale basa mas korbe tas tas:(?) "If you want to bend this bamboo, when it is green you can do it. And if it is yellow, can't. It will break." Tas, tas. This is Bengali. Tas. If you take one yellow bamboo, to bend it, it will crack and make sound, "Tas, tas." But when it is green, you can bend it. Kancai no wale paca means green. Kancai no wale basa mas korbe tas tas. First human civilization begins when you restrain the children not to become restless. This is the training. Brahmacārī guru-gṛhe vasan dānto guror hitam. This training is lacking. Therefore even in old age, the washerman business. I am bodily conscious, and I am training others also to become bodily conscious: "You feel like Indian," "You feel like American," "You feel like Englishman." This is education, the same dehātma-buddhi, that "I am this body," extended. The extended feeling of bodily consciousness, is that advancement? Is that advancement? The bodily consciousness is animalism. (aside:) Why you are taking? Huh? No, no. You keep it.
Devotee (1): Prabhupāda, it's your pāni. Devotee has put here.
Prabhupāda: You keep that glass here. What is that? Devotee has...?
Indian man (1): It's already open.
Prabhupāda: Ḍāb water? Oh. Here is not ḍāb water? This is ḍāb water.
Devotee (2): Is that ḍāb water in the cup?
Devotee (1): It's already opened, this ḍāb.
Prabhupāda: So we shall take it. This is Vedic civilization, that train the children how to become restrained, subdued, from the very beginning. Then he will take other education.
Brahmānanda: But what is the process for subduing?
Prabhupāda: That he should act simply for the benefit of the guru. This is the process. He has no personal interest. He'll go by the order of guru to beg alms from different householders and... They are innocent children. They'll go, ask, "Mother, give me some alms." And the mother also knows that "My child or his child, they are all neighbors' child. They will give." And whatever collection is there, he'll bring it to guru. So he does not claim that "I have collected. It is my property." No. It is guru's property. This is the first training. He works so hard to collect, but the property belongs to the guru. Guror hitam. This is first training. And that is the meaning of karmaṇy evādhikāras te mā phaleṣu kadācana (BG 2.47). That gentleman was quoting this. He does not know what is the meaning. He... Karmaṇye... He is engaged to work, to collect. Just like you are doing that. You are, whole day you are working for the selling books, but you don't make a farthing even out of the profit. That is for the guror hitam, for the benefit of guru.
Jayādvaita: That is one of their objections, that "These people, young people, work all day... "
Jayādvaita: "...and they give all the money to the guru."
Prabhupāda: You show. You show these quotes from the śāstra, that "This is our training, guror hitam: for the benefit of guru. So this is our śāstra." (break) ...he comes, he should stay here. His name is Gopāla.
Indian man: (Bengali)
Prabhupāda: (break) ...two years ago. (break) ...eighty-one. (break) Oh, very nice. (Bengali) (break) ...quired, but I remember this movement, the Godbrothers.(?) (Bengali) (break)
Hṛdayānanda: This is from Professor K. D. Vajpayee, Tagore Professor and Head of the Department of Ancient Indian History, Culture and Archeology, Director, Excavation and Exploration, Chairman, the Numismatic Body of India... (break) "The poetic excellence of the Bhāgavata has been recognized throughout the ages by eminent critics. It is gratifying to see that A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda has brought out an exquisite edition of this great work in several volumes. He has given the English rendering of the entire Purāṇa and has very ably interpreted its contents. The lucid style of his writing is discernable on every page of the volumes, which have been illustrated suitably. The printing and get-up of the volumes are superb indeed. Swami Prabhupāda has been known to me since his sojourn in Vṛndāvana when I was in charge of the Archaeological Museum, Mathurā. He has been propagating kṛṣṇa-bhakti movement in this country, in USA and Europe. It is to his credit that the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement has been made a worldwide discipline. He has been following the path of the ancient sages in serving the cause of Indian culture. The philosophy of humanity and the all-pervasive love of Indian culture has been effectively advanced by the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, of which Swami Prabhupāda is the very soul."
Devotees: Jaya Prabhupāda!
Hṛdayānanda: "Besides his commentary on the Bhāgavata Purāṇa, Swāmījī has written on the Upaniṣads, the Gītā and on several other works of ancient bhakti lore. K. D. Vajpayee."
Prabhupāda: So when I went to Vṛndāvana, he made friendship with me. The Mathurā Museum. He liked me very much. He remembered me.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That was in 1954 or '55. Twenty years after.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He still remembers.
Cāru: Śrīla Prabhupāda? This gentleman has just also taken two standing orders individually, and the Indian library party has just returned with thirty-two standing orders from Rajasthan and two standing orders from North Bengal University.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Thirty-two? Thirty-two more standing orders.
Prabhupāda: From where?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Rajasthan.
Hṛdayānanda: And North Bengal University.
Cāru: Took two standing orders today.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This man took two himself, Mr. Vajpayee.
Prabhupāda: He has...?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Taken two standing orders.
Hṛdayānanda: For himself.
Cāru: For the university.
Prabhupāda: Sagar University. That is good.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Thirty-two more standing orders.
Prabhupāda: Scholars and universities...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Appreciate.
Prabhupāda: He's also big scholar, archaeologist, very big scholar. (break) ...the beginning it was not so heavy. It is heavy. So even it is double weight, at that time it would cost thirty rupees. Now thirty into thirty times, nine...
Hṛdayānanda: Nine hundred.
Prabhupāda: So according to that proportion it would have cost one thousand at the present moment, value. So why so much, four hundred dollars? Four hundred dollars means three thousand.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: See, the thing with this coin is that they did not mint very many copies.
Prabhupāda: That's another thing.
Brahmānanda: Becomes rare.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Therefore it becomes rare.
Devotee (2): We checked it, Mahārāja. There was four thousand of those minted in that year.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Four thousand.
Devotee (2): There were four thousand of these minted in the year when this one was minted.
Devotee (3): It was rare.
Prabhupāda: Thank you.
Devotees: Jaya. (end)