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770225 - Conversation B - Mayapur

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His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

770225R2-MAYAPUR - February 25, 1977 - 37:40 Minutes

(Conversation With Artists and About BTG)

(Hari-śauri explaining to Tamāl Kṛṣṇa on how to record Prabhupāda)

Prabhupāda: Statement of account? (break)

Rāmeśvara: Statement of accounts, Hari-śauri?

Prabhupāda: No, you asked him to give report?

Rāmeśvara: Oh, you mean in Los Angeles?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: Oh, you want a statement . . .

Hari-śauri: We wrote to ask if you could send a statement.

Rāmeśvara: You wrote to me?

Prabhupāda: No, they sanctioned. Either you can send a copy or the original.

Rāmeśvara: Oh, yes, no problem. Also this receipt, I wasn't sure. It's . . . The artists had some meeting to plan out the paintings for Ninth Canto, Volume Three. The Second Volume is rāma-līlā and also Paraśurāma. That's already at the printer.

Prabhupāda: No picture?

Rāmeśvara: They're at the printers. When we return they'll be printed. We left Jagannātha-sūta there to supervise the printing, and we left enough artists to start painting the Third Volume, the final volume. So there are two paintings describing the story of Mahārāja Yayāti . . .

Prabhupāda: Yayāti.

Rāmeśvara: . . .how he was cursed to lose his youthfulness and so on. The first one shows . . .

Prabhupāda: Śukrācārya.

Rāmeśvara: This first sketch shows Śiva and Pārvatī are passing on the road. These women were bathing, and they are running to cover themselves. And this is the beginning of the fight between the women over the clothing, and Śukrācārya's daughter was thrown into a well.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Yes.

Rāmeśvara: Then because of that, Yayāti was cursed, because later on, the woman that threw her into the well, he . . . she became like a mistress.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They were friends, then they became rivals. Hmm. So that's all right.

Rāmeśvara: Then this is the painting showing Śukrācārya and his daughter, and they're cursing Mahārāja Yayāti. What's happening here is that . . .

Prabhupāda: No, Śukrācārya's cloth is why long? So?

Rāmeśvara: Too long.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: Did you catch that?

Muralīdhara: It should be below the knees, or . . .?

Prabhupāda: Hmm? Yes. This is sannyāsī cloth. Should be shorter.

Rāmeśvara: Now, what's happening here is that his face is still very youthful, but his body is becoming very old like an old man's body. Gradually, his hands are old. The only thing left is his face and his neck.

Prabhupāda: No, no.

Rāmeśvara: It is like he's being transformed.

Prabhupāda: After cursing, the body was that, but not before.

Rāmeśvara: This is like artist's license. He has just cursed him, and now his body is changing. But we wanted to show it all at the same time so that they could get the idea.

Prabhupāda: That's all right(?).

Rāmeśvara: And they have shown this taking place in the courtyard, in a courtyard of Śukrācārya's residence.

Prabhupāda: This . . .

Rāmeśvara: But the question is . . . This cloth.

Prabhupāda: Cloth should be . . .

Rāmeśvara: Because he was the spiritual master, would he be living in a very opulent house?

Prabhupāda: Not necessarily.

Rāmeśvara: So is this too opulent?

Prabhupāda: No.

Rāmeśvara: They have arches and . . .

Prabhupāda: That's all right.

Rāmeśvara: Now, there is this other question about which hand . . . What was his question?

Parīkṣit: Would he be cursing with the right or left hand?

Rāmeśvara: What is the point?

Prabhupāda: Right or left hand, what problem?

Muralīdhara: When they curse someone, is there a certain . . .

Prabhupāda: No. Right hand is all right.

Rāmeśvara: It's all right either way. Now, this painting shows . . . At the time of Vyāsadeva living in this cottage on the Sarasvatī River, there's a description that Śukadeva, he was in the womb, and he would not come out, and Vyāsadeva went to get Kṛṣṇa. Personally Kṛṣṇa came and ordered Śukadeva to take his birth.

Prabhupāda: That's all right.

Rāmeśvara: And they have got the womb area a little effulgent to indicate the presence of Śukadeva being a pure . . .

Prabhupāda: Overgrown.

Rāmeśvara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That's all right.

Rāmeśvara: Well, it will be overgrown, but they also want it to be effulgent.

Prabhupāda: Not overgrown. This is all right.

Rāmeśvara: Oh. Then there are many descriptions of Lord Kṛṣṇa in this volume, so they have painted this painting of Lord Kṛṣṇa. There is especially a description describing the beauty of His face and His lotus feet and His whole bodily beauty, carrying the flute.

Prabhupāda: Very nice. It is all right. Now you have become expert, painting Kṛṣṇa so many years.

Rāmeśvara: 'Cause we feel that there's never a limit how beautiful Kṛṣṇa can be painted.

Prabhupāda: (chuckling) Yes, unlimited.

Rāmeśvara: Now, also there are many descriptions . . . or there are several descriptions in this verse, of the Lord's expansion as Paramātmā within the heart of every living entity and also within each atom. Now, a few years ago Bharadvāja drew this picture for Back to Godhead. We were thinking to make a painting similar to this, showing that Viṣṇu is within the atom. And this will be used not only in this book, but also we were thinking to use this on the cover of Life Comes From Life.

Prabhupāda: That's all right.

Rāmeśvara: We can show these atomic rings?

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Rāmeśvara: 'Cause the scientists, when they draw pictures of the atom, they show these rings.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. Hmm.

Rāmeśvara: Now, this picture, this shows the story of King Rantideva's renunciation. He was fasting for so long, and these different personalities were coming.

Prabhupāda: And he was distributing.

Rāmeśvara: They had to give up his food. But actually, it said that these personalities were actually Lord Śiva and Lord Brahmā, testing him. So they've shown . . . (aside to asrtist:) How was it shown?

Muralīdhara: He's semi-transparent, so you get the idea that he's there and not there at the same time.

Prabhupāda: Back side.

Muralīdhara: Right behind the . . .

Hari-śauri: Both of these two figures are the same person. It's just to show that he's actually Lord Śiva, but he's appearing as a beggar.

Muralīdhara: His whole body will show . . .

Hari-śauri: So he's like a semi-transparent Lord Śiva.

Prabhupāda: That's all right.

Rāmeśvara: Now, at the time that he was taking this prasāda, would he be sitting in his palace room on his throne or . . .? We were thinking that in his dining room.

Prabhupāda: No, dining room.

Rāmeśvara: There should be a dining room. Then the last painting for the volume is from the twenty-fourth chapter, just the last few verses describing the appearance of Kṛṣṇa. It describes . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: . . .how Kṛṣṇa and the cowherd boys would enter the forest, and the gopīs would be thinking that Kṛṣṇa's feet are walking on hard rocks. So this is just a very simple sketch to show the idea. They're entering the forest, and the gopīs are standing by the houses, watching.

Prabhupāda: That's nice.

Rāmeśvara: We have a plan to increase the number of paintings, starting with the Tenth Canto, because many more artists have been coming, and some of them are becoming qualified to paint for the books. The standard right now is there's a picture of Your Divine Grace and seven paintings. So we want to increase it to a picture of Your Divine Grace and eleven paintings.

Prabhupāda: You can . . . If you want to increase picture, you can take important words . . . Just like the verse nivṛtta-tarṣair upagīyamānāt (SB 10.1.4): "One who has no more material hankering . . ." Paint it in picture. Nivṛtta-tarṣaiḥ: no more hankering for anything material. And there is word, dharma-śīla, "religious." What is that religion? One who has surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, he is religious. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam (BG 18.66). He is religious. So ordinary religious, they are not religious. In this way you depict one picture, one word. This can be . . .

Brahmānanda: Is that the first chapter?

Prabhupāda: Paśu-ghna. Paśu-ghna, the animal-killer.

Rāmeśvara: If we increase the number of pictures, the cost of the book to us will be an additional . . . between five cents and ten cents. But in exchange for that cost increase, more paintings.

Prabhupāda: That is your consideration. But if you are going to add nice pictures, these words can be explained.

Rāmeśvara: Yes. Also, because in the Tenth Canto there are so many descriptions of Kṛṣṇa's activities, so Kṛṣṇa has sent more artists.

Prabhupāda: Now, I'll give description of the word, so you can utilize it for . . .

Rāmeśvara: (aside:) Do you understand?

Rādhā-vallabha: Like there may be description of someone that's fully surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, has no material desires. You have to figure out a way to illustrate it.

Rāmeśvara: Just like last month you showed me that calendar of how they have illustrated every verse of the Bhagavad-gītā. So they have a way of finding . . . They can . . . Artists . . .

Prabhupāda: They're selling?

Rāmeśvara: That calendar that you showed me? When you were in Bhuvaneśvara you gave me one calendar, and it had illustrations of Bhagavad-gītā.

Prabhupāda: Ha, ha, yes.

Brahmānanda: It had one for every verse?

Rāmeśvara: Yes. Prabhupāda said one day we should do that, picture for every verse.

Brahmānanda: Very good picture, or simple?

Prabhupāda: Very good.

Rāmeśvara: (aside:) I gave you that calendar? So they're illustrating philosophic points like that.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Left eye. (about massage?) Hmm. (some quiet laughter)

Rāmeśvara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, for this GBC meeting, I understand one of the topics will be to discuss some things about Back to Godhead. So I wasn't here when you gave your instructions. So I was wondering if you could give me some idea what you want done, so I can also think about how to improve the magazine. Something is wrong in the magazine?

Prabhupāda: That . . .

Rāmeśvara: A few things in this last issue.

Prabhupāda: The thing is that you should not change abruptly without any sanction.(?)

Rāmeśvara: In the past I have sometimes asked you that we wanted to try to follow your example when you were first writing Back to Godhead, offering solutions to problems that people are currently bothered by, making the magazine contemporary and so on, rather than just giving them philosophy, but making it so that it can relate to their . . .

Prabhupāda: But we . . . Based on philosophy. You cannot go beyond the philosophy. Philosophy must be there. It cannot be changed. But we have to . . . You cannot change the wine. That should be the . . . So therefore, while changing, you can consult.

Rāmeśvara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That will be . . .

Rāmeśvara: Now, there has been a tendency that I have observed among the writers to try to use what they call outside information sources, like quoting scientists . . .

Prabhupāda: That, one cannot do it unless he is very expert in transcendental knowledge. This is not possible for kaniṣṭha-adhikārī.

Rāmeśvara: It's difficult to do.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He must be very expert. Therefore I want . . .

Rāmeśvara: Satsvarūpa.

Prabhupāda: Guidance.

Rāmeśvara: But the principle is all right if it is done properly.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: Because I have found that when these so-called authorities . . .

Prabhupāda: In my old Back to Godhead I discussed Gandhi, Churchill, Jinnah, but with reference to the philosophy. I criticized them on the basis of our philosophy.

Rāmeśvara: For example, Rūpānuga just wrote one article which we published, and in this article he was describing some work of some scientists in Europe. They were trying to prove by their experiments that life comes from life. So he was quoting them. He was describing their work, but the whole purpose was to get people to accept the Vedas, to show that even the scientist's conclusion is the same as the Vedas. Therefore the Vedas are authorized.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. That is nice.

Rāmeśvara: So that idea, if it's done expertly, can be used . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: . . .to convince people.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Rāmeśvara: Now, sometimes in our mantra page in the beginning of the magazine we have photographs of people who are not living in our temples but who have been induced to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa—sometimes parents of devotees . . .

Prabhupāda: So these things can be discussed. Of course, I could not read. Those who have pointed out the defects, so let them come and then discuss.

Rāmeśvara: Yes. No, if there's some defect, it must be corrected.

Prabhupāda: So . . . No . . .

Rāmeśvara: But if it can be done without . . .

Prabhupāda: Whatever is there . . . They have pointed out some defect, so in the presence of them you discuss. Then I shall give my decision.

Hari-śauri: That should be done in front of Your Divine Grace?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: They should all come?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. So, Satsvarūpa, Tamāla Kṛṣṇa, you have said?

Rāmeśvara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: He's also. He has also pointed out . . . So altogether. Pros and cons.

Rāmeśvara: One point that was felt . . . not the specific defect, but a very general point, was that this magazine is being distributed by the hundreds of thousands to very ordinary people who go shopping in stores—housewives and so on.

Prabhupāda: No, still, we cannot make it a shopkeeper's magazine.

Rāmeśvara: No, of course. But the tone of the magazine, we felt, should be such that they can also feel that it is . . .

Prabhupāda: They may not feel. That cannot be.

Rāmeśvara: That is their thing.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Gold must be presented as gold. One may not be able to purchase. You cannot . . . To sell, you cannot make . . . adulterate gold with iron.

Rāmeśvara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That is not.

Rāmeśvara: What about the idea that "You do not have to move into a temple, give up your family and everything, but you can actually chant Hare Kṛṣṇa in your own home," that idea that "It is available to you . . ."

Prabhupāda: No, that chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa does not mean whimsical.

Rāmeśvara: No.

Prabhupāda: Offenseless. He must be properly initiated. It does not mean that he should not be initiated and chant. That is not the idea. You can . . . Must be initiated, either you are a gṛhastha or sannyāsī or brahmacārī. Not that without being initiated you'll whimsically chant and the effect will be the same. No. You must be initiated. Ādau gurvāśrayam. You must accept a guru.

Rāmeśvara: If you want to sell some product, you may make so many claims, and then the public will buy. So sometimes we quote these psychologists who have done studies that "If you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, there are some good effects."

Prabhupāda: Good there is undoubtedly. If you eat something, there will be some effect of eating. But if it is properly eaten, properly made, it will be . . . have better effect. That is the idea.

Rāmeśvara: We were thinking that something is better than nothing.

Prabhupāda: No.

Hari-śauri: If you advertise the mahā-mantra gives some material benefit, isn't that an offense?

Prabhupāda: Then that is aparādha.

Hari-śauri: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That is aparādha.

Hari-śauri: One of the ten offenses.

Rāmeśvara: 'Cause sometimes when we interview these people who are chanting, they speak from their own realization, and it is not exactly the version of Śukadeva Gosvāmī; it is not . . . but it is their own realization, whatever little bit they have realized.

Prabhupāda: No, no. They may chant, but they must understand that the chanting process, that will be more effective. That they must know. Chanting is open. Anyone can chant, but they must know it, that "If I chant in the proper process, then it will be effective."

Rāmeśvara: It must be clear to them that the goal is love of God, not something material.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Premā pum-artho mahān. That is wanted. There is one word by Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, nāmākṣara bahir haya nāma nāhi haya: "The . . . Simply the alphabets are coming, but that is not nāma." Nāmākṣara, Hare Kṛṣṇa, the alphabets, are coming out, but it is not the holy name.

Rāmeśvara: Suppose someone says that Caitanya Mahāprabhu has given freely this holy name with no rules and regulations, but simply . . . (break)

Brahmānanda: We wanted to make a distinction that a nondevotee chanting is different from when a pure devotee chants.

Rāmeśvara: So that distinction should be there.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: We were thinking that somehow this magazine . . .

Prabhupāda: No, another thing, it is aparādha . . . Nāmno balād yasya hi pāpa-buddhiḥ. Unless he is in the process, he'll think, "I am chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, so whatever sinful activities I am . . . it will be controlled."

Brahmānanda: That's the worst offense.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is very bad offense.

Hari-śauri: So we're actually advertising the process of devotional service, not just simply haphazard chanting.

Prabhupāda: First of all we are chanting just to make him little attracted. Ādau śraddhā.

Rāmeśvara: Just to popularize it.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that's it. Then, if the heart is little cleansed, then they will understand. It will be effective, but when it is done properly it will give real effect. Outsider, those who are chanting, we don't discourage him.

Rāmeśvara: We want then to chant more.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But we must . . . They must know the science also.

Rāmeśvara: Just like this Alice Coltrane. She has done her small part. She made this record album with Govinda Jaya Jaya and Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: That is . . . That will be a good thing. But when he does it properly it will be more effective, because there is . . . If one does not chant in the process, then gradually it degrades. The offense will increase. There is chance.

Rāmeśvara: So in the past, in the magazine, we have only shown people chanting if they were initiated devotees, shaven-headed, living in temple. And recently they have adopted to show people who have jobs outside the movement—and they are not brahmacārī or sannyāsī; they're also chanting—to give the public the idea that . . .

Prabhupāda: So that we are giving, the facility to chant and take prasādam. But at the same time, gradually, if chanting is effective, then next we have to make it in the process.

Brahmānanda: We want to bring them to the process.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the ultimate. That is stated by Rūpa Gosvāmī,

yena tena prakāreṇa
manaḥ kṛṣṇe niveśayet
sarve vidhi-niṣedhā syur
etayor eva kiṅkarāḥ
(Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.4)

That "Somehow or other, bring him to chant Kṛṣṇa or to become little Kṛṣṇa conscious. Then, when he's little purified, then the vidhi-niṣedhāḥ . . ." He's not rejecting the vidhi-niṣedhāḥ. Vidhi-niṣedhāḥ means regulative principles. It is not rejected, that . . . But when he's a little purified, this vidhi-niṣedhā syur etayor eva kiṅkarāḥ. Just like one . . . First of all let him become rich, get some money. And then, when he has got money, he can keep some servant, some assistant, some secretaries, like that. First of all earn money.

Rāmeśvara: So one step at a time.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But organized business means there must be so many men, secretary, manager. That is regulated. So in the beginning, "All right, bring some money somehow. Then I shall . . ." So you cannot reject this organization because he's chanting. Then what is the use of writing so many books, the nāma-aparādha and other discussions, if anyone can chant?

Rāmeśvara: So it definitely has to lead them to that.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So we must come to that point. In the beginning you may be very liberal: "All right, chant." We do like that, and I have done it. There is no regulation. But that does not . . . that it should be neglected. He should be given affirmed, "By simply, whimsically chanting this . . ." No, that is not.

Hari-śauri: Niyamāgraha.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Don't make it cheap. It has got a science. It has got a form.

Rāmeśvara: I've seen in some articles they have written to defend our society from the attack of deprogrammers, sometimes one argument they give is that meditation and chanting are being studied by scientists, and they are finding the effects to be good. Now . . .

Prabhupāda: Effect will be good. And if we do it properly it will be first class.

Rāmeśvara: Now, these scientists, they are studying Hare Kṛṣṇa meditation, but they're also studying some other processes which are not authorized. And they are . . .

Prabhupāda: That is the defect.

Rāmeśvara: And they're stating that in general, to meditate, to chant mantra, this is good, this is healthy for the mind.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. The thing is that some way or other, if you are near the fire, you'll get some heat. But there is a process how to take heat.

Rāmeśvara: Oh, yes.

Prabhupāda: That you cannot reject. "Because I am getting little heat, it is sufficient," that is sahajiyā.

Rāmeśvara: So we are trying to use their endorsements and then make it very specific, that "Therefore to meditate using the Hare Kṛṣṇa, this is healthy. So why are you attacking us?"

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: We're trying like that. They are endorsing something else.

Prabhupāda: This is a better meditation. Meditation . . . One is performing meditation silently. But if we chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, it is forced meditation. He has to meditate. So it is better meditation. (kīrtana in background) Just like they're chanting; I am engaged in different business. Still, I am hearing. This is the . . . And one is silently meditating, he's getting . . . maybe he's getting the benefit, but here anyone who is hearing, getting benefit. Therefore chanting is better than . . . Yes. And it is recommended by Haridāsa Ṭhākura that . . . This is discussed in Caitanya-caritāmṛta, that "Chanting, even the trees, even the insects and the animals, they will hear and they get the benefit." So it is better meditation. Even the trees, plants, animals, birds, beasts, they can take benefit. And if it is done by pure Vaiṣṇava, then they get the full benefit.

Rāmeśvara: There's another trend that I have noticed recently, that they have . . . In the past, formerly, many articles were full of quotes in Sanskrit, and recently they have not been using so much Sanskrit, but just the English. The magazine is, they say, is mostly sold . . .

Prabhupāda: That is not bad. Sanskrit, not necessarily it has to be quoted, but the English is there. It is sufficient. The purport is there.

Rāmeśvara: It's now . . . Now this magazine that we're printing in Los Angeles, ninety-five percent is sold in America and Canada. We used to ship some of it to England, but now they want to print their own in England. We find that all over the world they don't want to import from America, but they want their own. The public feels, "Why should this be an American import? Why not print it . . ."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: So therefore it seems like, more and more, this magazine is just for America. It's becoming like that.

Prabhupāda: So that's all right. They're printing in England. That's all right. So why not the same magazine, but different article?

Rāmeśvara: I once asked Hṛdayānanda, "Why not have your men just translate the articles into Spanish from English and print the same magazine, since we have already done the layout?" And he said, "Because the photographs are just Americans. Now, to use this in South America, we want to have photographs of Latin Americans, and we want the preaching to be more specific, more current events and relevant . . ."

Prabhupāda: This is not very good argument.

Rāmeśvara: He says the people are offended by Americans in Latin America.

Prabhupāda: They have got that tendency.

Rāmeśvara: Jayatīrtha used the same argument in England. He said that the people do not like the idea that this is coming from America.

Prabhupāda: That you discuss. What I can say?

Brahmānanda: Should we have karmī photographs in our magazines?

Rāmeśvara: What do you mean?

Brahmānanda: Like in the English issue they have three photographs of torture.

Prabhupāda: That is not good.

Rāmeśvara: Torture? What do you mean?

Brahmānanda: They show a man being burned by fire, a man being pulled his body apart, a man hanging.

Prabhupāda: No, that is not . . .

Brahmānanda: Three photographs.

Rāmeśvara: But not all karmī photographs are bad. Sometimes we use karmī . . .

Brahmānanda: And now our magazine has no pictures of Kṛṣṇa. The last English edition had not one picture of Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: That's not good.

Rāmeśvara: In the past we were using either a photograph of devotees on the cover doing something or a painting. And in the middle of the magazine we used to have stories either from Kṛṣṇa book or Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam.

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Rāmeśvara: Then there was the use for some pictures.

Prabhupāda: So, do this.

Rāmeśvara: Sometimes they don't . . . They print different contents.

Prabhupāda: No, we are preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa must be there.

Hari-śauri: We can't produce a magazine without Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Without Kṛṣṇa, that is not good. We cannot allow.

Rāmeśvara: I mean, the only place for pictures of Kṛṣṇa . . .

Prabhupāda: No, every, every . . .

Rāmeśvara: . . .is in illustrating a story. When illustrating one of the pastimes . . .

Prabhupāda: No. We print . . . We must, therefore, publish Bhāgavatam, Kṛṣṇa philosophy.

Rāmeśvara: We're publishing Bhāgavatam as an insert in each magazine.

Prabhupāda: Yes, so that must be there.

Rāmeśvara: So then there could be a picture to relate to that.

Prabhupāda: A picture of Kṛṣṇa philosophy in the . . . Yes.

Hari-śauri: There's always an article of Your Divine Grace anyway, and you're always speaking about Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Hari-śauri: So surely you could put an illustration on that.

Rāmeśvara: We could, but the standard is we use just Prabhupāda speaking, showing Prabhupāda.

Hari-śauri: But there was that hand pouring that thing into the test tube, which . . . No one liked that.

Rāmeśvara: No one heard the reason. I don't like it either, but I understand why they did it. You have to hear both sides, you know.

Hari-śauri: Well, there's always a reason. But you have to get to the point—Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Even it is eso . . . esopheric? What is called?

Devotees: Esoteric.

Prabhupāda: Still, Kṛṣṇa must be there.

Rāmeśvara: So you think . . . You say that in every issue there should be at least one picture, painting, of Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. And Bhāgavata.

Rāmeśvara: And Bhāgavata. That should be our rule.

Hari-śauri: Like that test tube picture . . .

Prabhupāda: Bhāgavata, Bhagavad-gītā.

Hari-śauri: . . .if they'd have showed Kṛṣṇa pouring that mixture into a test tube . . .

Prabhupāda: That is not good, that Kṛṣṇa is doing, manufacturing test tube.

Rāmeśvara: No, that wasn't the idea.

Brahmānanda: That was a satire. They were showing . . .

Rāmeśvara: Yes, that was it. It was a satire.

Brahmānanda: The scientist is pouring chemicals, and from this chemical come all these colorful varieties. That wasn't clear.

Rāmeśvara: No one will believe it. Their idea was that . . . Anyway, I agree. It was a mistake. This issue that's at the printer right now has many pictures of Kṛṣṇa in it. It's a big improvement.

Prabhupāda: So do it very conscientiously.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? It's time for everybody to take lunch prasādam.

Prabhupāda: Yes, go.

Brahmānanda: Jaya Prabhupāda.

Rāmeśvara: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end).