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770124 - Lecture CC Madhya 08.128 - Bhuvanesvara

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

770124CC-BHUVANESVARA - January 24, 1977 - 50:59 Minutes


kibā vipra, kibā nyāsī, śūdra kene naya
yei kṛṣṇa-tattva-vettā, sei 'guru' haya
(CC Madhya 8.128)

This verse we were discussing last night, Caitanya Mahāprabhu's statement that Kṛṣṇa consciousness is not reserved for any particular person or nation or religion. (translated into Oriya throughout by Gaura-Govinda) The central point is that one must understand what is Kṛṣṇa. The other day somebody inquired, "What is the meaning of 'Kṛṣṇa'?" "Kṛṣṇa" means all-attractive. Unless God is all-attractive, how He can become God? So Vṛndāvana life means Kṛṣṇa comes, descends Himself to show what is Kṛṣṇa, what is God. So the picture, Vṛndāvana life, that is village life. There are villagers, cultivators, cows, calves—that is Vṛndāvana. It is not a big city like New York, London; it is village, and the central point is Kṛṣṇa. This is Vṛndāvana life. There the gopīs, they are village girls, and the cowherd boys, they are also village boys. Nanda Mahārāja is the head of the village, agriculturist. Similarly, the elderly persons and the elderly gopīs, Mother Yaśodā and her other friends—all are attracted by Kṛṣṇa. This is Vṛndāvana life. They even did not know what is Kṛṣṇa. They did not know by reading Vedas, Purāṇas, Vedānta to understand Kṛṣṇa. But their natural affection was for Kṛṣṇa.

So this svābhāvika ākarṣaṇa can be . . . at the present moment we have no natural attraction for Kṛṣṇa; therefore we must understand by knowledge what is Kṛṣṇa. That is Kṛṣṇa tattva vettā. So why one should be attracted to Kṛṣṇa unless Kṛṣṇa has all the attractive features? The attraction . . . generally, in this material world we are attracted to a rich man or to a powerful man, man or woman. Just like our Prime Minister, she is woman, but because she is powerful, we are attracted; we talk of her. So the points of attractions are discussed by Parāśara Muni as bhaga. Bhaga means opulence. So these opulences . . . when one is very rich, he is opulent. One is very powerful, he is attractive. One is very influential, one is very beautiful, one is very highly learned . . . in this way, attraction. So if we scrutinizingly study the life of Kṛṣṇa, you will find in the history of the world than Kṛṣṇa there was no richer person than Kṛṣṇa, no powerful person than Kṛṣṇa, no beautiful person than Kṛṣṇa, more learned and person of knowledge, philosophy, than Kṛṣṇa. If you study you will find everything. The six opulences are fully represented in Kṛṣṇa; therefore He is Bhagavān. Bhaga means opulences, and vān means one who possesses. This is the meaning of Kṛṣṇa, that He is all-attractive because He possesses all the six opulences. This is the description of Kṛṣṇa.

So we should not accept anyone and everyone as Bhagavān. We must test whether he has got the six opulences. A person who is begging from door to door, and when there is some bodily pain he immediately goes to the doctor—"Toothache, sir. Please give me medicine," so does it mean that he is Bhagavān? A Bhagavān cannot cure his tooth pain even? This class of Bhagavān we should not accept. Bhagavān is described in the Bhagavad-gītā, asamaurdha. Nobody can be equal to Bhagavān, and nobody can be greater than Bhagavān. Therefore Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu says particularly, yei kṛṣṇa-tattva-vettā sei guru haya (CC Madhya 8.128): "One who knows Kṛṣṇa specifically, not superficially, but in all details what is the meaning of Kṛṣṇa, what is Kṛṣṇa, he can become guru." Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā about Himself, kṛṣṇa-tattva, about . . . the truth about Kṛṣṇa we can understand from Bhagavad-gītā with our intelligence. Just like Kṛṣṇa describes that mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7). Now you study this one line that Kṛṣṇa says, "There is nobody greater than Me." Now you study Kṛṣṇa's life, compare with anyone and you'll find, "Yes. Nobody is greater or equal to Kṛṣṇa." This is Kṛṣṇa.

So at the present moment the defect is that people are not very serious to understand of Kṛṣṇa, because in this age, as it is stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam about the people of this age,

kalāv asmin yuge janāḥ
mandāḥ sumanda-matayo
manda-bhāgyā hy upadrutāḥ
(SB 1.1.10)

Prāyeṇālpāyuṣaḥ. People are living not as they used to live formerly. In this age, Kali-yuga, the maximum years one can live: hundred years in this Kali-yuga. Hundred years. In the Dvāpara-yuga it was one thousand years. In the Tretā-yuga it was ten thousand years. In the Satya-yuga it was one hundred thousand years. It is reducing. Kali-yuga means the duration of age will reduce, the memory will reduce, the bodily strength will reduce, mercifulness will reduce. In this way everything will reduce. This is Kali-yuga. Supply of foodstuff will be reduced. This is Kali-yuga. So mandāḥ. Everyone is bad, not full strength. Mandāḥ sumanda-matayo. And everyone has got a sumanda-mata. Mata means opinion or system, which is also sumanda. Not only mandāḥ but sumanda. Everyone is manufacturing a type of Bhagavān, a type of religious system. That is not bona fide at all. Sumanda-matayo. Mandāḥ sumanda matayo. And everyone is unfortunate, manda-bhāgyā, unfortunate in this sense: they do not know what is the aim of life, how human life should make progress.

(aside) So you can read the explanation of this. He will explain in Oriya. Purport.

Hari-śauri: Translation: "Whether one is a brāhmaṇa, a sannyāsī or a śūdra, regardless of what he is, he can become a spiritual master if he knows the science of Kṛṣṇa." Purport: "This verse is very important to the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. In his Amṛta-pravāha-bhāṣya, Śrīla Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura explains that one should not think that because Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu was born a brāhmaṇa and was situated . . ."

Gaura-Govinda: (to Hari-śauri) Kindly read one sentence.

Prabhupāda: One sentence. Yes. One sentence, finish talk. Then he'll explain.

Hari-śauri: "One should not think that because Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu was born a brāhmaṇa and was situated in the topmost spiritual order as a sannyāsī it was improper for Him to receive instructions from Śrīla Rāmānanda Rāya, who belonged to the śūdra caste."

Gaura-Govinda: This verse is very important for Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. (translates remainder into Oriya) (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . prabhu said,

yei bhaje sei baḍa abhakta hīna chāra
kṛṣṇa bhajanete nāhi jāti-kulādi-vicāra
(CC Antya 4.67)

This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's vision. There is no such distinction that one is lower and higher in the matter of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. In the śāstras it is clearly stated that unless one is Kṛṣṇa conscious, he cannot become guru.

ṣaṭ-karma-nipuṇo vipro
avaiṣṇavo gurur na syāt
ṣaḍ-vaiṣṇavaḥ śva-paco guruḥ
(Padma Purāṇa)

It is said that a brāhmaṇa, even though he's well-qualified, ṣaṭ-karma, brāhmaṇa's six occupation, ṣaṭ-karma-paṭhana pāṭhan yajana yājana dana pratigraha-ṣaṭ-karma-nipuṇo vipro mantra-tantra-viśāradaḥ, and he's well expert in Vedic hymns, Vedic understanding—mantra-tantra, Pañcatantra, everything is competent—but avaiṣṇava, if he's not a devotee of Kṛṣṇa, he cannot become guru. Ṣaḍ-vaiṣṇava śva-paco guruḥ. But if a Vaiṣṇava, even though he may come from the caṇḍāla family, śvapaca, the dog-eater's family—that is considered the lowest in the human society—if he becomes a Vaiṣṇava, he is fit for becoming spiritual master. This is the śāstric injunction. Our guru, out of the Six Gosvāmīs, one of them, he has given his direction in the Bhakti . . . what is that? Hari-bhakti-vilāsa, that avaiṣṇava-mukhodgīrṇaṁ pūtaṁ hari-kathāmṛtam śravaṇaṁ na kartavyam (Padma Purāṇa). A person who is not Vaiṣṇava . . . Vaiṣṇava means kṛṣṇa tattva vettā. If he's not well versed in the science of Kṛṣṇa, if his behavior is not Vaiṣṇava . . . sadācāra-sampanna. Vaiṣṇava must have dvādaśa-tilaka, śikhā, sūtra, kunti, and there are many things, description, sadācāra-sampranna, Vaiṣṇava. If he's not that, simply by education if he speaks about Kṛṣṇa, one should not hear. One should not hear. These are professional men. If you pay him something, he'll speak for some time, but his behavior is not Vaiṣṇava. So from such person it is forbidden to hear about Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam or anything about Kṛṣṇa. Avaiṣṇava-mukhodgīrṇaṁ pūtaṁ hari-kathāmṛtam, śravaṇaṁ na kartavyam. So one may say that "He's speaking about Kṛṣṇa, so what is the wrong there? He may be misbehaved, but he's speaking about Kṛṣṇa." So that Sanātana Gosvāmī says, pūtaṁ hari-kathāmṛtam. Hari-kathāmṛtam is always pure. That's all right. But avaiṣṇava-mukhodgīrṇaṁ pūtaṁ hari-kathāmṛta, śravaṇam . . . why? Sarpocchiṣṭaṁ payo yathā. Everyone knows milk is very nice and nutritious food, but if it is touched by the lips of a serpent, it is spoiled, no more to be . . . so it is forbidden, that we should not try to understand about Kṛṣṇa from a person who is not Vaiṣṇava. Explain. (break)

At the present moment there are so-called scholars, politicians or philosophers, they have nothing to do with Kṛṣṇa or kṛṣṇa-bhakti, but just to take advantage of the Bhagavad-gītā they are explaining Bhagavad-gītā in their own way. (break) One should not spoil his life by hearing or understanding the version given by such avaiṣṇava. So if we want to derive actual benefit from the Bhagavad-gītā, we must approach such person who has understood what is Kṛṣṇa. So therefore Kṛṣṇa gives the direction,

tad viddhi praṇipātena
paripraśnena sevayā
upadekṣyanti tad jñānaṁ
jñāninas tattva-darśanam
(BG 4.34)

We should approach, we must approach, yei kṛṣṇa tattva vettā. We must learn from him about Kṛṣṇa. Then we can understand Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise not possible. Go on reading. (break) . . . movement here giving this yajñopavita to the Europeans and Americans, because they are now qualified. So sometimes we are criticized in India, that "Bhaktivedanta Swami is spoiling Hindu religion." But it is not actually the fact. We are increasing the number of Hindus. Unfortunately these, our these European and American disciples, these so-called brāhmaṇa priests of Jagannātha Purī, they do not allow. (break)

Indian man (1): . . . Americans, they are not allowed to Jagannātha temple. What Prabhu Bhaktivedanta Swami is doing and what action, what he's doing for them?

Prabhupāda: That is up to you. We . . . (break) . . . vaiṣṇave jāti-buddhiḥ, arcye śilā-dhīr (Padma Purāṇa). Everyone knows in the temple . . . just like Jagannātha. Everyone knows Jagannātha is made of wood, or, in other temple, made of stone. But people, do they come to see wood and stone? So if anyone thinks . . . sometimes the atheist class, they think that "These foolish men, they are going to see a piece of wood." This is nārakī-buddhi. Similarly, arcye viṣṇau śilā-dhīr guruṣu nara-matiḥ: those who are acting as guru according to the description, if somebody thinks that "This man is ordinary person," and vaiṣṇave jāti-buddhiḥ, similarly caraṇamṛta, gaṅgajala, if somebody thinks ordinary water, so he's nārakī. So these Europeans, Americans who are properly initiated according to Vaiṣṇava system, according to Caitanya Mahāprabhu's indication, if somebody thinks they are jāti, angrej jāti or American jāti, he's nārakī. What can be done?

Indian man (2): What are the reasons why one should not hear from one who has got sufficient knowledge on Lord Kṛṣṇa if he is not outwardly a Vaiṣṇava? That means he's not having śikhā or kunti, like that.

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Hari-śauri: He says, "What's wrong with hearing from someone if he has some knowledge of Kṛṣṇa even if he doesn't have a śikhā and tilaka and what have you?"

Prabhupāda: That is the injunction of authority. Avaiṣṇava-mukhodgīrṇaṁ pūtaṁ hari-ka . . . śravaṇaṁ na kartavyam. We have to abide by the orders of the superiors. "Why?"—there is no question. Authority says; you have to accept. You cannot say "Why?" Vedic injunction. Therefore Kṛṣṇa was accepted as guru by Arjuna. Śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ prapannam (BG 2.7). Because as friend and friend the reply and argument will go on, to stop this argument Kṛṣṇa is accepted as guru, not as friend. Similarly, when you accept a guru, you must accept guru according to the Vedic principle. So here guru, Sanātana Gosvāmī, he is giving the injunction that avaiṣṇava-mukhodgīrṇaṁ pūtaṁ hari-kathāmṛtaṁ śravaṇaṁ na kartavyam. Exceptional case is different, the paramahaṁsa stage. But a guru, although he is paramahaṁsa, because he is teaching, he come down as madhyama-adhikārī. There are three kinds of Vaiṣṇava: kaniṣṭha adhikārī, madhyama adhikārī and uttama adhikārī. Uttama adhikārī may be without kaṇṭhi, without śikhā, without Vaiṣṇava symptoms. He's paramahaṁsa. But when he comes to the preaching platform he must become a madhyama adhikārī, not to imitate uttama adhikārī, because he has to teach. He cannot deviate from the teaching principles. So what you are speaking, that "Without śikhā without kunti, one can become guru," that is fact for the paramahaṁsa, not for the preacher. Preacher must behave very nicely.

Indian man (3): Mahārāja, it is true that one should follow Kṛṣṇa consciousness for spiritual progress, no doubt, but who and why this present society situation, which we observe in this world, in the modern civilization?

Prabhupāda: (asking him to move forward) You can come please here. We can hear. You can come. What do you mean by "modern civilization"?

Indian man (3): The civilization we are now going through.

Prabhupāda: So what do you mean by "modern civilization"? That means to violate all the rules and regulation? Does it mean modern civilization?

Indian man (2): Question was, "Why there is a chaotic situation if . . ." I think if I'm understanding him correctly, "Why there is a chaotic situation? If God is to uplift the soul of the all the persons, all the livings, why there is a chaotic situation?" I think that Lord Kṛṣṇa has said that yadā yadā hi glānir bhavati . . . (BG 4.7). That is the answer, guru will say. Why there is a chaotic situation? That is his question, sir.

Prabhupāda: The chaotic situation must be there. Kṛṣṇa says one thing and you do other thing. So why there shouldn't be chaotic condition? You hear Kṛṣṇa, you follow Kṛṣṇa—there will be order. But if you do not follow, Kṛṣṇa says something and you do something . . . Kṛṣṇa says that,

evaṁ paramparā-prāptam
imaṁ rājarṣayo vidu
sa kāleneha
yoga naṣṭo parantapa
(BG 4.2)

Kṛṣṇa says that this Bhagavad-gītā,

imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ
proktavān aham avyayam
vivasvān manave prāhur
manur ikṣvākave 'bravīt
(BG 4.1)

Kṛṣṇa says the way of studying Bhagavad-gītā, but you do not accept Kṛṣṇa's instruction. You read all rascals' Bhagavad-gītā commentary. Then why there shall not be chaotic condition? You do not follow. He strictly prohibits. Evaṁ paramparā-prāptam sa kāleneha yogo naṣṭaḥ parantapa (BG 4.2). Yogo naṣṭaḥ. As soon as the paramparā system is not accepted, the so-called commentary on Bhagavad-gītā is lost or rotten. So you are interested with the rotten commentary of so-called politicians, scholars. So how you'll get the benefit? Therefore it is chaotic.

Indian man (3): Lord Kṛṣṇa preached Bhagavad-gītā in battlefield of Kurukṣetra, and it is afterwards written by Vyāsadeva.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian man (2): Is the Vyāsadeva got it out of his meditation, or how the actual things which was conveyed to Arjuna was again in real thing took a shape in Bhagavad-gītā?

Prabhupāda: That you have no intelligence to understand. But what is given by Vyāsadeva, that is accepted by all the ācāryas. We are not so learned as you are, but we follow the ācārya. And it is recommended in the Bhagavad-gītā, ācāryopāsanam: you must follow the ācāryas, the Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, even Śaṅkarācārya, Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Then you'll get the real answer. Ācāryavān puruṣo veda (Chāndogya Upaniṣad 6.14.2): "One who follows the ācārya, he knows." Others, they do not know. So you cannot question "Why? How Vyāsadeva wrote?" That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Sañjaya says, vyāsa prasāda. How one can understand? "By the mercy of Vyāsadeva." So we have to see. Instead of criticizing in that adverse way, we have to follow the ācārya. Ācāryopāsanam. So you'll find Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Viṣṇu Svāmī, Nimbārka, Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, they have accepted in that way. So what is the use of our questioning? We should follow. Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186). Otherwise it is not possible.

Indian man (4): I think Bhagavad-gītā invisible treasure of all the sums of teaching of . . .

Prabhupāda: Invisible for the nondevotees. Nāhaṁ prakāśaḥ sarvasya yogamāyā-samāvṛtaḥ (BG 7.25). But for devotee He's visible. Premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti (BS 5.38). Those who are real devotee of God, they are twenty-four hours seeing Him within the heart. So God is not invisible. Invisible for the atheist.

Indian man (5): We see some invisible action and some outer action.

Prabhupāda: What is invisible?

Indian man (5): Man is simple instrument in the hands of God. That I know. God is doing everything or the man? Then the point comes why the brāhmaṇas of the Jagannātha temple are not allowing. Śrī Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-bhutatma ātmānu, "I live in sarva-bhuta." That means this ātmā is Paraṁbrahman Himself. If so, why the brāhmaṇas of the Jagannātha temple are not allowing the foreigners and the . . .?

Prabhupāda: So why in other temples they are allowed? No. God wants that these rascal may remain in darkness. They cannot understand Vaiṣṇava. Let them remain in darkness. That God wants.

Indian man (5): Kṛṣṇa, Rāma, Hari . . .

Prabhupāda: No. Your answer is this, that "Why God does not . . .?" God wants that "These so-called brāhmaṇas who eat Jagannātha prasāda with fish, let them remain in darkness, not to understand who is Vaiṣṇava."

Indian man (5): That is true . . .

Prabhupāda: That is true. Take it, that. That's all. (laughter)

Indian man (5): But to understand the God . . .

Prabhupāda: Tān ahaṁ dviṣataḥ krūrān kṣipāmy ajasram andhā-yoniṣu (BG 16.19). Those who are vaiṣṇava-dveṣi, bhagavad-dveṣi, God keeps them in darkness perpetually.

Indian man (5): Prabhupāda, what is the reason between man and God? That is the point we have to understood.

Prabhupāda: We have to understood . . . come to this school and learn it, not in a minute.

Indian man (5): Sir, not minute.

Prabhupāda: Then why you are asking all these things? You come, become a student and learn. It is not so easy subject that standing for one minute, you'll understand everything.

Indian man (5): Not standing. If God . . . if God is not doing everything and . . .

Prabhupāda: God is doing everything. I have already explained. If you want to remain a demon, God will keep you in demonic condition. That's it. He is doing everything. That's a fact. And if you want to be devotee, then God can make you devotee also. Ye yathā mām prapadyante tāṁs tathaiva bhajāmi (BG 4.11).

Indian man (5): That would be good.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So . . .

Indian man (5): That's why I asked of the point which is not clear to me. That's why I asked of the point. I know that God is, God is moving everything . . .

Prabhupāda: God is doing everything. That's a fact.

Indian man (5): Kṛṣṇa says in the Gītā, "I am moving every living thing." If so, if Śrī Kṛṣṇa is living in every heart, . . . (indistinct) . . . He's God. If Śrī Kṛṣṇa is living in every heart, this ātmā itself is God, Paraṁbrahma, ātmā in māyā, being entangled . . .

Prabhupāda: The God never says the ātmā is Para-brahman. Why you are talking like that?

Indian man (5): No. If the ātmā is not God, then what is there?

Prabhupāda: God is . . .

Indian man (5): Due to the presence of a God . . . this life force is not God. Due to presence of a God this ātmā is living.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. Ātmā is there. You have studied Bhagavad-gītā or not? First of all tell me: Do you think ātmā and Paramātmā are the same thing?

Indian man (5): Mostly the same thing. Yes. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: That is foolishness. That is foolishness. First of all try to understand. That is foolishness. Ātmā and Paramātmā—different.

Indian man (5): Advaitavāda, dvaitavāda, viśiṣṭādvaitavāda . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no. I am talking of Bhagavad-gītā as it is. Don't bring this vāda, that vāda. In the Bhagavad-gītā the ātmā and Paramātmā is not the same.

Indian man (5): No, then, well . . . we have to accept duality. There are two . . .

Prabhupāda: No. Whatever "ism," we are talking of Bhagavad-gītā. So Bhagavad-gītā—ātmā and Paramātmā different.

Indian man (5): This ātmā is giving forms to Paramātmā.

Prabhupāda: That is foolishness. That is foolishness. In the Bhagavad-gītā that is not stated.

Indian man (5): With our intelligence we both cannot understand the thing, what is Parambrahman, but real philosophy is dvaitavāda, advaitavāda, one monism.

Prabhupāda: So dvaitavāda, advaitavāda, there may be. But we are talking of Bhagavad-gītā. In the Bhagavad-gītā what is there, you speak.

Indian man (5): Knowledge of our ātmā. Bhagavad-gītā is connected to our ātmā. Excuse me.

Prabhupāda: Bhagavad-gītā, it is clearly stated that . . . what is that? Kṣetra-kṣetrajña. Ksetrajña.

Indian man (5): (interrupting) Kṣetra-kṣetrajña . . .

Prabhupāda: Just hear. Hear, please. Hear. Hear, please. (Indians talking at once) Yes. Now, Kṛṣṇa says, kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi (BG 13.3): "So I am also kṣetrajña, and the jīva is also kṣetrajña."

Indian man (5): Yes, yes.

Prabhupāda: So that does not mean . . . first of all hear. Then say yes or no. He says, kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata: "I am also kṣetrajña, but sarva-kṣetreṣu." If ātmā . . . I am ātmā; you are ātmā. You know your kṣetra; I know my kṣetra. But I do not know your kṣetra; you do not know my kṣetra. That is Bhagavān. He knows everyone. Ksetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata. So Kṛṣṇa, or Bhagavān, He is sarva-kṣetreṣu, but you are only your kṣetra. Therefore dvaitavāda. Two different kṣetras, kṣetrajñas: one kṣetrajña is all-pervading and one kṣetrajña is localized. Therefore two kṣetrajñas. It is dvaitavāda. Yes. You see Bhagavad-gītā? You have read Bhagavad-gītā?

Indian man (5): In this ātmā, two kṣetrajñas.

Prabhupāda: In this . . . not ātmā. In this body. There are two kṣetrajñas. One is the individual kṣetrajña.

Indian man (5): But we mean to who is residing in the heart with the ātmā.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Then He's kṣetrajña.

Indian man (5): Who become splitted after our death, that is the kṣetrajña.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian man (5): Then it will be two.

Prabhupāda: There are two kṣetrajñas: one kṣetrajña, the individual soul, and the other kṣetrajña is Bhagavān. There are two kṣetrajñas. Dvaitavāda.

Indian man (5): Yes. Then this monism and duality, then what about the viśiṣṭa-advaita?

Prabhupāda: No, no. We are talking of Bhagavad-gītā. Why you are bringing so many things? First of all try to understand the simple thing in the Bhagavad-gītā. Then bring big, big words. Yes, there are two kṣetrajñas. You have to accept it.

Indian man (5): Two kṣetrajñas.

Prabhupāda: Yes!

Indian man (5): Then duality.

Prabhupāda: Yes!

Indian man (5): Then there are two Gods.

Prabhupāda: Yes . . . not two Gods. One God. One is servant. Not two Gods. There cannot be two Gods. Otherwise Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7).

Indian man (5): Two kṣetrajña means two Gods. Two kṣetrajña . . .

Prabhupāda: Why kṣetrajña two Gods?

Indian man (5): Because jña means God.

Prabhupāda: Then why two Gods?

Indian man (5): Two kṣetrajña.

Prabhupāda: No! Two kṣetrajña does not mean two Gods. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). So He is all-pervading. You are not all-pervading.

Indian man (5): Kṛṣṇa is all-pervading.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian man (5): But by sādhana, by sādhana . . .

Prabhupāda: So even if you say . . . even if you . . .

Indian man (5): I can also pervade. I can also pervade. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Bhāgavata: By sādhana he can become all-pervading himself.

Prabhupāda: That is foolishness. That is foolishness.

Indian man (4): There is no use in argument.

Prabhupāda: That is not possible.

Indian man (5): In this body . . .

Prabhupāda: That is not possible. Mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ jīva loke sanātana (BG 15.7). Sanātana-jīva-loke jīva āṁśa. Āṁśa cannot be the full. Yes. Āṁśa, part, cannot be equal to the whole.

Indian man (5): Then if we be the parcels of God, then what about prārabdha? We are suffering from pain and pleasure . . .

Prabhupāda: So you are suffering. God is not suffering.

Indian man (5): No. God is not suffering.

Prabhupāda: Then, therefore, difference between you and God. You are suffering god and he's enjoying God.

Indian man (5): We are enjoying the prārabdha, is it not?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian man (5): Pain and pleasure is part of God.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That prārabdha. That is the . . . but God is not . . .

Indian man (5): This is not argument. I have no equal.

Prabhupāda: God is not under the laws of karma.

Indian man (5): Swami . . . I want to know from swami.

Hari-śauri: If you want to know, then listen! If you want to know, listen. Don't speak.

Indian man (5): All are waves and bubbles of the same sea. We are the bubbles and waves of the same sea, same Paraṁbrahman, this ātmā, Himself . . . (quotes Sanskrit) Oṁ bhūr bhuvaḥ svaḥ . . . (break)

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says ca, this word. Ksetrajñaṁ ca means "I am also kṣetrajña." Therefore He is different from the ordinary kṣetrajña. First of all try to understand this. Ca means "different," "another." And the difference is that sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata: whereas the individual kṣetrajña is within the body. That's all. (break) . . .there is no advaitavāda. There may be advaitavāda philosophy, but in Bhagavad-gītā there is no advaitavāda. It is dvaitavāda. Otherwise why Kṛṣṇa said, sarva-dharmān partiyajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ: "You śaraṇaṁ vraja. You are different from Me"? Kṛṣṇa says. Otherwise why Kṛṣṇa asked that "You surrender"? That you and I—different. That is dvaitavāda.

Indian man (5): Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66), that can I understood, all arguments.

Prabhupāda: No. You can understand anything, but that is not the thing. We have to take it as it is. We are therefore presenting Bhagavad-gītā as . . . God is commanding you, that "You surrender." So you are different from God.

Indian man (5): That means, surrender means I am not a doer. I am not doing anything. God, who is residing within me . . .

Prabhupāda: Surrender . . . who will surrender? Unless you are servant, why shall you surrender? You are servant; God is master. So therefore master and servant different.

Indian man (5): No, that is true. I am not God. But God is there within me. God is everybody.

Prabhupāda: That's all . . . God is everywhere.

Indian man (5): He's within ant and dog and elephant and everybody.

Prabhupāda: That . . .

Indian man (5): Due to presence of God, this small living being, due to presence of God . . .

Prabhupāda: God is within dog. Therefore does it mean God is dog also?

Indian man (5): No. God is not dog. God is a . . . (man continues talking while Prabhupāda talks)

Prabhupāda: Then you are putting the same argument. Because God is there within dog, therefore God is dog.

Indian man (5): When we are talking . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, they are talking like that: daridra-nārāyaṇa.

Indian man (5): God is in everywhere.

Prabhupāda: God is everywhere. That is understood. But that does not mean . . . God says, mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni nāhaṁ teṣu avasthitaḥ (BG 9.4). Why don't you read this?

Indian man (5): No. That is true. If we will not believe that, then we will be helping people? We will be helping lot of people? No, that is not . . .

Prabhupāda: Well, we understand Bhagavad-gītā as it is. We don't make any interpretation.

Indian man (5): In Bhagavad-gītā Śrī Kṛṣṇa says, "I live in everybody," sarava-bhuta . . .

Prabhupāda: Who denies that? That does not mean God is everything.

Indian man (5): No. God is not everything.

Prabhupāda: Then dvaitavāda—everything and God is different. That is dvaitavāda.

Indian man (5): Then we have to love everybody, everything.

Prabhupāda: So who says no? Unless we love everyone, why we are traveling all over the world?

Indian man (5): Love is God, accept, paraṁ dharma.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian man (5): Truth I understand.

Prabhupāda: That's it. That is . . . that is wanted. Paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitram (BG 10.12).

Indian man (5): Otherwise we can't love a poor man . . .

Satsvarūpa: Enough argument. Sit down. Then no more argument.

Indian man (3): I think Lord has said in the Bhagavad-gītā . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian man (3): "Like sky, everywhere I am pervading, like one sun giving light to all."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian man (3): "So in all souls I am pervading."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian man (3): That much clear answer to his question, the difference between the all-pervading Lord . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian man (3): . . . and the individual soul.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian man (3): And also He has said that Paramātmā . . . that He is Puruṣottama, that greater than the soul. The soul is also . . .

Prabhupāda: Puruṣa. Soul is described as puruṣa.

Indian man (3): . . . greater than him. So that also establishes that . . .

Prabhupāda: Dvaitavāda.

Indian man (3): Yes. God is different. And we cannot say that we are equal to God.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And God says other, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7): "Nobody is equal." Asamaurdha: "Nobody is equal to God; nobody is greater than God." That is God. All right. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Devotees: Jaya Prabhupāda! (end)