770107 - Conversation A - Bombay

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His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada



770107R1-BOMBAY - January 07, 1977 - 91:59 Minutes



Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. What he will do, more payment(?)? Then he will kill. This sex life in this material world is so strong, even in the heavenly planets. Big, big ṛṣis. Sex life with animals also there is description. Sex life is so strong. Man cohabiting with animals. It makes blind. Vyāsadeva made one of her students pregnant...

Jagadīśa: Vyāsadeva

Prabhupāda: ...what to speak of ourselves. Vyāsadeva was born, Satyavatī. She was low class. Although she was born by a king, but her mother was a low-class fisherwoman. And the fisherman raised her as daughter. And Parāśara Muni became attracted, and Vyāsadeva was born. Sex affairs, just see, in the highest circle. Bṛhaspati, the spiritual master of the devatās, he became so much mad for his brother's wife who was pregnant, and forcibly they had sex. Just see. These are examples. Brahmā became attracted with his daughter. Lord Śiva became attracted with the beauty of Mohinī-mūrti, even in the presence of his wife. So this sex life can be controlled only by becoming Kṛṣṇa conscious. Otherwise there is no... The Bhāgavata has discussed all this because in this material world there is no escape, unless we become Kṛṣṇa conscious, from the sex impulse. It is not possible. Yad-avadhi mama cetaḥ kṛṣṇa... When one is fully Kṛṣṇa conscious, then he'll reject all this nonsense: "What is this?" Bhavati mukha-vikāraḥ suṣṭhu. He'll spite: "Eh! Get out. Is that enjoyment?" It is possible for a Kṛṣṇa conscious... No other can do it. And that is the bondage. He'll have to work hard for maintaining sex issues. And so long you are bound up by the karmas, you have to accept another body and then continue. Who knows this, how we are bound up and conditioned? If you talk in the modern society they will laugh: "What nonsense this man is, 'By sex life one becomes conditioned.' " They cannot understand. Hare Kṛṣṇa... (japa) This should be strictly outlawed—no more sannyāsīs. And those sannyāsīs who have fallen, you get them married, live like a... No more this showbottle, cheating. It is very ludicrous. Even there is a promise that "We shall not fall down again," that is also not believable. What is the use? Better go and speak philosophy in your gṛhastha dress, not this dress, but you have nice coat, pants, gentleman. Who says no? I never said. Rather I shall be glad to see that up-to-date gentleman with tilaka and śikhā are speaking. That is very, how you say, prestigious everywhere. Why this false dress? What is the wrong to become gṛhastha? I was gṛhastha, pakkā caliber gṛhastha. My Guru Mahārāja was brahmacārī. Just see his character. Caitanya Mahāprabhu was gṛhastha, but when He took sannyāsa: "Oh, I am now..." For sober person. That is wanted. That is ideal. He married twice. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura married twice. Caitanya Mahāprabhu married twice. What is the wrong there? One has to become pure devotee, that's all. Other things, of course, are circumstantially favorable, either a gṛhastha, brahmacārī or vānaprastha or sannyāsa. Kibā vipra kibā śūdra nyāsī kene naya, yei kṛṣṇa-tattva-vettā sei 'guru' haya (CC Madhya 8.128). You must know the science of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That makes you guru, not this dress. (pause) So what you are thinking of American program? Do it seriously. Balavanta is very expert. And all of you are expert. And do it seriously and systematically, not change the position, this side and this, change. That's not good. That makes fickle. Strength of mind wanted.

Jagadīśa: Prabhupāda, I was thinking of taking books, going from town to town, and finding interested people and then stay...

Prabhupāda: Everyone will be interested.

Jagadīśa: Yes. And stay for some time in one place, find some local people, train them up cooking...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, that is good.

Jagadīśa: ...kīrtana, speaking, reading the books...

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. That is wanted.

Jagadīśa: ...and let them set up a small center in their house or purchase one storefront.

Prabhupāda: If one is convinced about this favorably, that is success. It doesn't matter what dress. Let him teach his family and neighborhood. Let them do their own business. It doesn't matter. That is... Let them understand Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa science. That is wanted. Do that program. Make that program. He is coming, Rāmeśvara. Take to it very seriously. (break) I can cycle even now. (laughs) In our childhood... I had car, but my nephew was driving. I never drove. In 1925, I purchased one Buick car.

Trivikrama: Buick? It's a good car.

Prabhupāda: At that time in India it was eight thousand rupees only. Very strong car.

Trivikrama: From America it came?

Prabhupāda: Yes. American cars were selling during British days—Ford, Buick, Chevrolet. These cars were selling. Dodge. (Dr. Patel enters) Aiye. Jaya. In 1925 I purchased one Buick car, eight thousand rupees.

Dr. Patel: That was..., small cars were everywhere seventeen hundred rupees in 1936-37.

Prabhupāda: And Ford car was very cheap.

Dr. Patel: Thirty-two hundred rupees. V8 Ford cars were sold in Bombay market for thirty-two hundred rupees, 3,200. Now you send a car for repairs, the bill will be six thousand, seven thousand rupees.

Prabhupāda: What can be done? Things have gone high, I was calculating the other day—twenty times.

Hari-śauri: Thirty times.

Dr. Patel: More than that.

Hari-śauri: Thirty times.

Prabhupāda: Thirty times, yes. My father's income was from 250 to 300, and we were living very comfortably.

Jagadīśa: A month?

Prabhupāda: Per month.

Dr. Patel: It was more than sufficient, those days.

Prabhupāda: No, no, that three hundred rupees means... What you calculated?

Hari-śauri: Well, at 250 rupees it came to seven and a half thousand rupees now.

Dr. Patel: That's right.

Prabhupāda: Even low as 250 it comes to seven thousand. So who has got seven thousand income now?

Dr. Patel: In my house we spend monthly more than six thousand rupees. I studied for my graduation in the college at fifty rupees a term fee for six months. I'm paying for those small kids going to the family schools seven hundred rupees per month.

Prabhupāda: Our family was taking two kilos and half milk daily, two annas per kilo. Ghee, ghee was selling, first-class ghee, in Calcutta... Just in front of our house there was a grocer shop. We were purchasing in a tin, but if some required, I would go immediately.

Dr. Patel: Fourteen rupees a tin it was. I have bought it fourteen rupees, I think. Fourteen rupees.

Prabhupāda: Fourteen rupees. Less than that.

Dr. Patel: Fourteen rupees means twenty kilos.

Prabhupāda: Ten seers.

Dr. Patel: That is twenty kilos.

Trivikrama: That's cow ghee?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Trivikrama: Cow ghee?

Dr. Patel: No, buffalo's.

Prabhupāda: Buffalo's. Cow ghee we were taking with rice. But it was not available in quantity.

Dr. Patel: And it was so very cheap then, I mean here. After I graduated myself when I was a university scholar, I was given seventy-five rupees scholarship per month, and a free bungalow with servants and all these things. It was all right for me till I passed my M.D. Seventy-five rupees only.

Prabhupāda: This cow's milk in Bengal, it is compulsory—before beginning your meal, little cow milk, er, ghee, mixed with rice and smashed potato. It is very nice.

Dr. Patel: And then we do serve... After that we take out a part of it for the cow back, and a little for...

Prabhupāda: Ālu bharte bharta. In Bengal it is called ālu bharte bharta. If you don't have anything, just have smashed potato, little ghee and rice. That's it. It is sufficient, very nutritious. And at last, little milk. Very nutritious.

Dr. Patel: Now there is shortage of all the important material the world over. The way we are exploiting the earth, perhaps we'll be short, falling short of everything.

Prabhupāda: Therefore our Trivikrama Mahārāja is reminding me... When I was lecturing in Berkeley University, one Indian student asked me, "Swāmījī, what this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement will benefit? We require technology." So I replied that "You have come to beg technology; I have come to give them, not to beg from them."

Trivikrama: To teach. "I've come to give."

Dr. Patel: I understand. The modern materialistic, I mean, advancement of society with this modern technology will, I mean...

Prabhupāda: No, even from that point of view... I was taking aeroplane. Aeroplane was flying. So we admit this is contribution of the Western technology. But it is not safe. But what I am giving, it is safe. Svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato... (BG 2.40). So our this contribution of India's culture and this contribution—far different. That is not safe. At any moment you'll be finished. But here—svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato bhayāt. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). This Manipur state is mentioned in the Bhāgavata.

Dr. Patel: It is very old, sir.

Prabhupāda: And these people say that three thousand years before, there was no civilization.

Trivikrama: Now they're changing their minds.

Dr. Patel: In Manipur, where Arjuna married...

Prabhupāda: Babhruvāhana.

Dr. Patel: Babhruvāhana.

Prabhupāda: And Babhruvāhana, the king's daughter's son, he remained as the adopted son of the king. Putrikā-suta. He had no sons, so he took the daughter's son.

Dr. Patel: Babhruvāhana. And he came for the (indistinct).

Prabhupāda: So this is India's... The kṣatriyas, they're not (indistinct), and some śūdras are ruling.

Dr. Patel: The śūdras are ruling the world over, not only in India. What they are doing... Because Nixon was less than a śūdra, the way he carried out himself, the highest authority of the most advanced state materialistically.

Prabhupāda: Now they are going to take care of it, these brāhmaṇas.

Dr. Patel: (laughs) But he made a very bad show. The place where a man like...

Prabhupāda: Washington.

Dr. Patel: Washington and people like Jefferson and (indistinct). I mean he has polluted that seat. They must change that seat. Change the White House wholesale. The greatest curr on this most, I mean, enlightened people. Americans are very enlightened because their forefathers were enlightened and they came there as Pilgrims. Pilgrim... Those, what do they call them?

Jagadīśa: Puritans.

Dr. Patel: Puritans, you see. They are most different from the Aussies. The Australians are criminals of England.

Prabhupāda: If Nixon is a Jew?

Dr. Patel: No, no. He's a Christian. No Jew can be, sir, as president of that country. Not only Jew, but no even Catholic.

Jagadīśa: Well, some Catholics. Kennedy was...

Dr. Patel: Only Kennedy was the first Catholic to be. Otherwise till Kennedy came, there was no, I mean, Catholic ever elected. (break) ...Methodist. Even in material world, he was a fool the way he carried out, the way he turned around. (laughing) But sir, one thing, about the freedom of America. I have my hat off that that man could be knocked off by ordinary, I mean, a paper reporter. That would not happen in any other country.

Prabhupāda: Therefore I asked to take the government.

Dr. Patel: That would not happen in any other country but America, this freedom par excellence.

Prabhupāda: There is possibility of Kṛṣṇa conscious devotees will take the government.

Dr. Patel: That can be possible because of the freedom...

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Dr. Patel: ...essential freedom of that country.

Prabhupāda: Therefore we are being checked, that "They may not grow." The one politician has said that "If they grow like this, in ten years they'll take the government."

Trivikrama: Someone has said that?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. He said.

Jagadīśa: Someone in Houston.

Prabhupāda: Some politician has said that "The Hare Kṛṣṇa people are growing so rapid, like epidemic." He has said. "And if they grow like this, within ten years they may take our government." He has remarked it.

Dr. Patel: Good for them. The amount of money that has been wasted by America, (indistinct) small nations, that much money could have raised the standard of living the whole...

Prabhupāda: Money is no consideration.

Dr. Patel: Apart from that, sir, after all, it is a disease, poverty. If the people are out of poverty, then they will think about... First they'll think about God in the stomach, then anywhere else.

Prabhupāda: No, no. This is not the fact.

Trivikrama: Out of poverty, then they'll think about wine and women.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: But that is in America, not...

Prabhupāda: Everywhere. Everywhere.

Dr. Patel: They have nothing to eat. You have seen the people living worse than the pigs.

Trivikrama: We have seen in Japan. Now they are...

Prabhupāda: Everywhere. Here also, all these politicians, they are after woman, meat and money. That's all.

Trivikrama: Intoxication.

Prabhupāda: Yes. One... Who was speaking, that in...? Some gentleman, he was Feroz(?), Gandhi's friend. He went to America, and he was eating beef like anything.

Dr. Patel: Feroz? He was Gandhi?

Prabhupāda: Not... No, another Indian leader. He's a Marwari brāhmaṇa.

Dr. Patel: Parsee would never eat beef, sir, huh? I've heard they are...

Prabhupāda: No, no. They are eating everything.

Dr. Patel: They don't eat beef.

Prabhupāda: I know. They are eating. They eat everything. I have seen one Parsee here in Bombay. He is chanting and getting one chicken cut throat by the man. And he's cutting, he gave in a paper and he took it away. And he's chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. (Dr. Patel laughs loudly) Not Hare Kṛṣṇa, but... They have got all their chants. They have got their chanting. And I have seen their kitchen.

Dr. Patel: Very dirty.

Prabhupāda: It is more dirty than the toilet.

Dr. Patel: Filthiest thing. Most dirty kitchens are the Muslims. Very horrible thing. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...day one Hindi gentleman came. He presented a picture, India's map, and all the whole India is full of avatāras: Vivekananda, Ramakrishna, this, that. This is India.

Dr. Patel: They might be vibhūtis. You can call them, but...

Prabhupāda: No, no, same thing. What vibhūtis they have got? Vibhūti of cheating, that's all. (laughter)

Dr. Patel: They are vibhūti anyhow.

Prabhupāda: They have got some vibhūti, how to cheat. This vibhūti they have got.

Trivikrama: He was serious? He was serious about the map?

Prabhupāda: Yes. He came to me to support this movement. What is this nonsense map, all cheaters pictured here? All Bhagavān, so many thousands of Bhagavāns. Vibhūti of cheating, that's all.

Dr. Patel: Yad yad vibhūtimat sattvam (BG 10.41).

Prabhupāda: That vibhūti you have got also.

Dr. Patel: Whatever it may be.

Prabhupāda: All right. Even an ant has got.

Dr. Patel: And that means if you... A bigger ant. There are in South America are some ants, you know, big.

Prabhupāda: So that is... That... That gift is given by God to everyone. That does not mean one is Bhagavān.

Jagadīśa: Kṛṣṇa says, "I am the cheating of cheats."

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break)

Dr. Patel: The greatest number, sir, is being carried out here in Bombay some fifty miles away by this Muktananda Swami. His statue is being worshiped as, in place of God by...

Prabhupāda: Sai Baba is also.

Dr. Patel: That Muktananda.

Prabhupāda: Sai Baba is also doing, Satya Sai.

Dr. Patel: They say that they are worshiping the guru as God. And why not as their guru?

Prabhupāda: Rajaneesh.

Dr. Patel: Rajneesh calls himself Bhagavān, that man.

Prabhupāda: He also says "Bhagavān."

Dr. Patel: He's doing a sort of mass hypnotism, to my mind. Psychologically I try to analyze him.

Prabhupāda: Without analyzing, we take him as rogue. (laughter) That's all.

Dr. Patel: You... I, being a scientist, try to analyze. This is my nature.

Hari-śauri: Analysis is our nature, he said.

Dr. Patel: I try to analyze you also, sir. I try to analyze you.

Prabhupāda: No, our analysis is..., analytical process, is very simple.

Dr. Patel: (laughing) I did it. And when I tried...

Trivikrama: What is that process, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: The process: if one is not kṛṣṇa-bhakta, he's a rogue.

Hari-śauri: Duṣkṛtina, mūḍha, narādhama...

Prabhupāda: Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). Bās, finished analysis. As soon as we see that he is not a devotee of Kṛṣṇa, he must be a rogue. That's all. Duṣkṛtina, sinful. That's all.

Dr. Patel: About this guru, they have taken it in a very wrong way. Ādya-guru is Kṛṣṇa. That way you must go and worship that way.

Prabhupāda: Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ... (break) ...see you are a rogue. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Trivikrama: So you have analyzed Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Dr. Patel: I have. And I found that only bhakti is the real way. And to correct myself I read out all the Vaiṣṇava literature. I know this Sanskrit. And then I... (continues talking to Trivikrama in background—indistinct)

Prabhupāda: (aside:) That's nice.(?) But first give me little cow's milk, cup—and put little flat rice, not too much, and little fruit. That's all.

Dr. Patel: So, sir, you are going by train to Kumbha-melā.

Prabhupāda: I like train.

Dr. Patel: I would have accompanied you if you had gone by plane. I would lose lot of time going and coming. While coming back, you will come out to ten days, five days.

Prabhupāda: No. Train, first class is very comfortable.

Dr. Patel: But you see, after all, it takes upon the health, twenty-four hours. I have gone to Allahabad by...

Prabhupāda: No, no. Rather, doctor, your doc..., (indistinct name), he said that: "Avoid plane." For me he had said.

Trivikrama: Yes, because the atmosphere changes.

Dr. Patel: But the pressurized plane, no. On nonpressurized plane...

Trivikrama: He is the knower of his body.

Dr. Patel: All right. I had gone to Allahabad by train. (laughs) I had a very bad experience myself.

Prabhupāda: No, first class is... We reserved whole room, so no outsider there; will be very comfortable. We'll leave at...

Dr. Patel: First class have got now four berths.

Prabhupāda: Four. We reserve four whenever... So two upper berths, two lower berths—we sleep very comfortably—lock the door. And first class...

Dr. Patel: You'll be coming back after how many days?

Prabhupāda: Maybe by March.

Dr. Patel: More. Fifteen days, no?

Prabhupāda: No. More than that.

Dr. Patel: It will be very, very cold. It will be very, very... You have to live in a tent. After all, tent is not really... Especially in March, January, cold is extreme. It is as cold as New York, but more than that.

Prabhupāda: I have got many invitation from friends. I can live in the home, house. That depends on my... Either in the tent or a mile, two miles away.

Dr. Patel: When you go out after leaving some friend's house, it will be very difficult to come out because of the cold. It will be as big as Bombay practically, this Kumbha-melā, at least twenty-five lakhs or thirty lakhs. It will be as big, as cold.

Prabhupāda: No, space is also.

Dr. Patel: I'll tell one of the friends to get me some water on that day. I'll take bath here. (laughs) (indistinct) I had gone to Allahabad once only.

Prabhupāda: Only?

Dr. Patel: We have not had chance to go there. Delhi also. I've never gone to the Delhi also. Therefore it was calling me. I have seen Delhi in 1939. After that, I have never gone.

Prabhupāda: My family life was in Allahabad, from 1923 to 1936 continually. I used to come to Bombay from Allahabad for business. And I was staying in that hotel, Empire Hindu Hotel.

Dr. Patel: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes, very nice there. At that time it was very nice.

Dr. Patel: That is the hotel where Lokmanya Tilak died. He was staying there.

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is modern standard, very nice hotel.

Dr. Patel: Maharastrian brāhmaṇas keep very good hotel, still good hotel. They are not as greedy as the Gujaratis. That is a fact.

Prabhupāda: No, they are following principle. Now the Gujarati are also... And Maharastra, as good. This material civilization, meat-eating has spread like anything. Here we see signboard: "Beef shop." We have seen.

Dr. Patel: Was it?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: There, there. Not here. They're on that side. Now they are not going to have any more beef now, from first of January. Cows are prohibited. Practically the whole India there will be no cow slaughter. That is what Vinoba Bhave was putting on a fast unto death. Still, he did not stop fasting...

Jagadīśa: I thought they killed bulls.

Dr. Patel: Bulls are included in cows. Cows, because bulls... No, in place they will kill the buffaloes. The buffaloes are tamed. I don't know how in the world, sir, nowhere these buffaloes are tamed as it is in India. That means what height of these things Indian people must have reached to tame the wild animals. They are terrific animals

Prabhupāda: No, buffaloes are killed.

Dr. Patel: No, no. What I mean to say, how buffaloes were tamed and milked and all these things. Nowhere in the world other than India you'll see buffaloes, anywhere.

Trivikrama: China.

Dr. Patel: In China they have got? They have also? They have got, (indistinct). In Africa, oh, you see a buffalo and a bison... (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Buffalo and bison, different.

Dr. Patel: But they are of the same degree or more wild. These are tame. This, sir, is a bhainsa(?). We call it bhainsa, the Sanskrit word, more or less. (pause)

Prabhupāda: The coconut trees makes the place paradise—palm trees.

Dr. Patel: I've got the place, sir. When you came to my house, my wife immediately planted twenty-two coconuts all round. (indistinct) Now we get coconut, they'll be more than two thousand rupees per year.

Prabhupāda: We are getting eight thousand.

Dr. Patel: Yes, you are very good, sir. Mine is hardly half an acre.

Prabhupāda: The other day Girirāja told me we have got eight thousand.

Hari-śauri: A year.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: But these coconuts, there would be more coconuts if they are looked after, also putting fertilizer on and watering them. All these hutments behind here, small hutments, they should be very planned out. This is all filthy. Behind it is very filthy. Best thing here would be, from management point of view, all these tenants will be segregated on one side, this side. And those living, they will be taking possession and (indistinct).

Prabhupāda: No, instead of taking one building, we are in possession of the all the buildings. Then that is my policy, that we must remain on the head of every building. Therefore I constructed. They cannot say absolutely it is tenants. No. Mixed. We are therefore occupying the head of every building, fixed building.

Dr. Patel: There are some grand courts again(?) behind...

Prabhupāda: That is one story. Otherwise we are on the head. They cannot monopolize the whole building.

Hari-śauri: We have a room in that building, anyway. In that one-story building we're storing our books in.

Prabhupāda: That we have taken now, that portion. We have paid for it.

Dr. Patel: This place, that is the worth of that, this amount, was originally bought by Mr. Nair, for this place, for nine...

Prabhupāda: Two rupees, three rupees.

Dr. Patel: That one which you bought. This, this, behind, where you call. Nine annas. Nine annas a square yard.

Prabhupāda: Nine annas. (laughs)

Dr. Patel: So my place, I bought in 1958 for fifteen rupees. Today it would take me four hundred, five hundred rupees a square yard, only within these two, three years, twenty years.

Prabhupāda: Mr. Nair told me that "I have purchased not more than twenty rupees per square yard. So I shall charge you seventy rupees. It is my profit."

Dr. Patel: Seventy rupees also you were wise as compared to the modern, present prices.

Prabhupāda: No, at that time it was selling 150. And now it is more than four hundred. Our land is only one crore, apart from these buildings. Therefore everyone is envious.

Dr. Patel: Most envious men are opposing to you. That fellow was himself burned by pouring kerosene on. I told you. He was a most envious fellow. He even once told me, "Why do you go there?"

Prabhupāda: Ācchā?

Dr. Patel: So I continued to go. I used to treat his family. I was doctor. And I stopped treating him because he has not (indistinct). He has got half a dozen girls in his family. I mean, where you will get from (indistinct), money?

Prabhupāda: In Kali-yuga there is no marriage. Svīkāra eva codvāhe (SB 12.2.5). By agreement.

Trivikrama: By agreement.

Dr. Patel: That is in Western countries.

Prabhupāda: No, everywhere. India also.

Dr. Patel: Marriages are brought in (indistinct), and they are never broken down again. That is the...

Prabhupāda: No, in big, big cities there is a marriage magistrate. You go... The boys and girls go and register there...

Dr. Patel: Yes, but here...

Prabhupāda: No, no. Marriage is, therefore—what is called—primitive. Primitive. The modern marriage is primitive.

Dr. Patel: I think also that is correct. In your time, sir, you never used to see the girl from the year before the marriage. In our times, we never used to see the girl before the marriage. I never saw my wife. She was in Mahatma Gandhi's āśrama, and I was on this side. I never saw. And we lived very happily.

Prabhupāda: No, in my marriage, it was already settled. So one day I was going in cycle. So my father-in-law forcibly took me. (chuckles)

Dr. Patel: So those marriage, sir, sometimes they never (indistinct).

Prabhupāda: No. My wife was eleven years old.

Dr. Patel: When you married. My wife was sixteen years when I married her. I was nineteen.

Trivikrama: Eleven years!

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: That was nothing! They would marry at the age of five.

Prabhupāda: My mother-in-law was married at seven years. And my father-in-law was eleven years.

Dr. Patel: A friend of mine was studying together in the high school, and he married when he was a boy of eleven years, a girl of nine. And he was sleeping when he was (indistinct).

Prabhupāda: Even Dr. Rajendra Prasad, he was married at eight years.

Dr. Patel: Eight years. Rajendra Prasad, first president of India.

Prabhupāda: And the marriage party was waiting, and he was sleeping, and when the opportune moment came, "Get up! Get up! Now you have to sit down in the..."

Dr. Patel: I think Nehru married at the age of eighteen years.

Prabhupāda: He was up-to-date, English-returned. He was Gandhi's student.

Dr. Patel: These boys make love and marry. And we marry and make love. (laughs) (indistinct) This is the background of Indian womanhood, this religion. That keeps up the sacredness of the Hindu marriage.

Prabhupāda: No, everywhere there is religion—in Europe, America. Church. Church. Marriage was taken in church.

Dr. Patel: But the Catholic marriages are indissolvable. They can't remarry. Now they have done it.

Prabhupāda: Now you have also done in India, so many.

Dr. Patel: We have got a government law, that sue the fellow for dissolution. Hindus..., Mr. Nehru has done great service to his community. (japa) (break)

Prabhupāda: ...aerodrome is near.

Dr. Patel: I reach aerodrome from my place in three minutes. And you come here is (indistinct). (indistinct discussion of airplanes and helicopters) (break)

Prabhupāda: Chembur, I stayed there for a week. So almost on head, aeroplanes.

Dr. Patel: They come this way and they, on the head on Santa Cruz. Few of them are like that. Many of them are taking on this east-western way. (break) ...New York.

Prabhupāda: Kennedy airport. There are two, three airports. (break) ...forget spiritual body. Next time he is going to be dog. That he does not know.

Dr. Patel: (laughs) Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu (BG 18.54), sir. Even dog has in his day. There is the dominance of God.

Prabhupāda: No, no. We don't hate dog. We say that this life is meant for getting release from this repetition of birth and death. Otherwise punaḥ punaś carvita (SB 7.5.30)... (break) Either you become a dog or a hog or a man or a god, the business is āhāra-nidra-bhaya-maithuna... (break) (bell rings)

Prabhupāda: That one thing is that this sort of publicity, and this, this dress, is very nice. Girls who have no husband, they should dress like this, not attractive dress. A dress sometimes attracts the opposite sex. And women are..., by nature they dress very nicely. (laughs) That is everywhere—to attract. The nature is that they are dependent, woman, by nature. Do you admit or not?

Pālikā: Yes.

Prabhupāda: And the Western countries, they have been taught to become independent. That is artificial. That is all artificial. So woman by nature... Manu-saṁhitā (9.3) says, na striyaṁ svatantram arhati: "Women should not be given independence." They must be protected by the father, by husband, and by elderly sons. They are not independent. No independence. Even Kuntī, the mother of such big, big sons, she was not independent. The sons were sent to the exile; mother also went. Sītā... The father-in-law never said that "You also go with your husband." No. He requested Rāmacandra that "Your stepmother wants that You should be exiled. So please accept it. Accept this." And Rāmacandra said that "You are not exiled." But Sītā said, "I may not be exiled, but I am dependent on You. If You go to the forest, I must..." You see? Just see, dependent.

Jagadīśa: Most of the women, or at least many of the women in our society, have neither father, husband or sons.

Prabhupāda: It is very precarious condition. So we want to give them, all of them, "Come and live." But when you come here, if you get husband we have no objection, but don't canvass. That is not good. And that is making our sannyāsīs fall down. Of course, it is difficult, that young men, young women living, intermingling. But it is... Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is to reform everything. Even there, there is such desire it should be checked. And that can be checked if one is strictly Kṛṣṇa conscious. Otherwise not possible. So these things should be... Because the Kali-yuga, the more it advances, people will be suffering in so many ways. And the only solace is Kṛṣṇa consciousness—only solution. If one becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious, then he doesn't require husband. He does not require. He... She knows that "Kṛṣṇa is my protector. Why shall I artificially seek after father or...?" And what protection, for a few days, either the father or the son or the husband may give? Real protection is Kṛṣṇa. This is temporary. But because we have got this material body we require some. In this way... And this kind of hypocrisy—they have taken sannyāsa and mixing with woman—this is not to be allowed. If you want woman, you get yourself married, live respectfully. We have no objection. But this hypocrisy should be stopped. There have been so many fallen down. First of all there will be no sannyāsī anymore. I have got very bad experience. And at least we are not going to create new sannyāsīs. And those who have fallen down, let them marry, live like respectable gentlemen. I have no objection. After all, young man, fallen down—that's all right. It is by nature's way. But marry that girl. That I am insisting from the very beginning, that no friendly liaison. If you want, get one nice... They are all of them qualified. Get one wife and live like a gentleman. Similarly woman. Live with one husband fastidiously, with children. What is the wrong there? We have so many gṛhastha devotees. You have got children. Pradyumna has got child. Gopāla has... Live with husband, wife. There is no restriction for husband and wife. But what is this nonsense that you take sannyāsa and make relation with...? This should be completely stopped. And in our this campus, actually those who are eager to advance in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they should live; nobody else. We give free food, free apartment, cloth and everything. "Come here. Live. As far as possible we shall provide." But this is specially meant for bhagavad-bhajana. Attend ārati, early rise in the morning, attend the functions, take prasādam... In this way everything will be reorganized, not loose things. Then what is the use of...? We have got such a... And so far the tenants are concerned, if it is possible, give them money; let them go. One, two, some have gone, and others... This whole campus should be for devotees. We don't want tenant. And it should be developed for that purpose, for developing Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Either here or outside India or anywhere, this principle should be followed. And this hodgepodge association, society, is not the... Let it be very pure. Ekaś candras tamo hanti na ca tārā (Nīti Śāstra). That one moon is sufficient. There is no need of millions of stars. Hmm? What do you think? One moon gives light. So in this way, if we can make one person really Kṛṣṇa conscious, then our mission is successful. What is the use of millions of stars twinkling? What is called? Twinkling?

Jagadīśa: Twinkling.

Prabhupāda: You should discuss all these things, but you... These two brothers should be..., P. Bannerji and M. Bannerji... The address is there. You can write as secretary, "Dear Sir, I am instructed by His Divine Grace Prabhupāda to thank you for your postcard dated such and such. And we condole for your bereavement in the absence of your father, late Principal N. Bannerji. You know that your father was intimately related with Śrīla Prabhupāda, and he assisted him with some money, loan. Your father attempted to repay it, but he could not. Now, after his death, you are worthy sons..."

Jagadīśa: I'm getting behind, Śrīla Prabhupāda. "Now, after his death..."

Prabhupāda: "You are good sons behind him. You have observed the death ceremony very pompously."

Jagadīśa: "Death ceremony..."

Prabhupāda: "Of your father."

Jagadīśa: "Very pompously"?

Prabhupāda: Pompously. "Why not repay the debts of your father, so that he may live very peacefully in his next life? A line in reply will much oblige us. Yours sincerely." You sign, "Secretary to His Divine." This man (laughs) over there was a pakkā thief, and his sons also.

Jagadīśa: He was a pakkā thief.

Prabhupāda: He cheated me. Ten years before, I gave him about one thousand rupees. He never paid me. And these sons are also number one pakkā, and they are observing the death ceremony. What you have written?

Jagadīśa: "Dear Sirs: I am instructed by His Divine Grace Śrīla Prabhupāda to thank you for your postcard dated such and such, and we condole for your bereavement in the absence of your father..."

Prabhupāda: Eh? "I am? I am?" What is it?

Jagadīśa: "And we condole for your bereavement in the absence of your father, the late such and such."

Prabhupāda: Principal N. Bannerji.

Jagadīśa: "Principal N. Bannerji. You know that your father was intimately related with Śrīla Prabhupāda, and he assisted him with..."

Prabhupāda: "And Prabhupāda assisted him."

Jagadīśa: Okay. "And Śrīla Prabhupāda assisted him with some money loan. Your father attempted to repay it, but he could not. Now, after his death, you are good sons behind him. You have observed the death ceremony very pompously. Why not repay the debts of your father so that he may live very peacefully in his next life? A line in reply will much oblige us. Yours sincerely, Secretary..."

Prabhupāda: Is that all right? Let us see how worthy sons they are. Everyone knows. They know. That Gauracandra Gosāi, Rādhā-Dāmodara, he knows. And I have got letters and everything. I... If I go to the court... And who is going to the court? I could have gone to the court, long, long ago. I never liked to go to the court. In my business life also, if somebody did not pay, I never go to the court. Bother. "To push good money after bad money." The money which is lost, and... And what about that money order?

Jagadīśa: I have instructed Girirāja to do it this morning.

Prabhupāda: Oh, again "instructed." No instruction. I want to see the receipt immediately.

Jagadīśa: I told him.

Prabhupāda: You told him, but he does not do.

Jagadīśa: It's still early. As soon as...

Prabhupāda: Early... When it will be late, then it will be not done. Immediately do it. When I am giving him, it must reach timely to save the situation. So go and do this first. (break) This is our latest publication.

Indian (1): I see. (break) They should see the Almighty. They should repeat it. They should recite the name. Physically, they should be strong and stout and be the brothers of everyone. There should be a brotherhood. Gopāla Prabhu has got some grasping capacity. He can understand something. We know the principles in the life according to Bhagavad-gītā, Mahābhārata, Rāmāyaṇa, Bhāgavata.

Prabhupāda: Saṁsiddhiṁ paramāṁ gatāḥ (BG 8.15).

Indian (1): Sve sve karmaṇy abhirataḥ saṁsiddhiṁ labhate naraḥ. Sve sve karmaṇy abhirataḥ. That means everyone must be firm.

Prabhupāda: Tam abhyarcya. Not only simply dṛḍhatva, but karmaṇā tam abhyarcya (BG 6.22). Otherwise it is zero. Karmaṇā mānavaḥ tam abhyarcya. If you give up that tam abhyarcya, then it is useless. So where is that abhyarcya?

Indian (1): It is devotion. To forget ourselves.

Prabhupāda: No, forget ourself not. If you forget yourself, then how you'll work? You must know what is your position.

Indian (1): No, no, forget ourself, that means we have to forget the passions and selfishness.

Prabhupāda: Passion, that is base principle. I mean to say actually you have to remember yourself, what is your position, not forget yourself. Your position, as it is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, mamaivāṁśo (BG 15.7)—"I am the part and parcel of God." You cannot forget this. If you forget this, then everything is...

Indian (1): No, no. That is... Not to forget that, only to forget the bad things...

Prabhupāda: That you cannot forget bad things unless you are engaged in good things.

Indian (1): Good things. Correct, correct. Correct.

Prabhupāda: Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate (BG 2.59). If you do not get good engagement, you cannot give up bad engagement. So similarly, if you do not forget your constitutional position, then the bad things cannot be forgotten. So our position is that we are part and parcel of God.

Indian (1): Of the Almighty.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like this finger is the part and parcel of my body. So this finger, I say, "Finger, come here. Itch here," so it is doing that. And if it is... If it cannot do, then it is diseased.

Indian (1): Senseless.

Prabhupāda: If there is some painless..., painfulness or some sore, then immediately I cannot do it. So that means I am part and parcel of God. If I cannot serve God, then I am diseased. That is material condition. So material condition... Suppose this finger is diseased. So you poke up, applying some ointment and going to the doctor. This is one business. And when it is cured, when it is actually engaged in service, that is healthy state. So this social work without serving God is just like applying ointment to the diseased part of the... It has no value, practical value. If it... It has got value, provided it is cured, to serve the whole body. So if the finger is not so cured to serve the whole body, then it remains diseased. You go on applying ointment, it has no use. Similarly, to serve humanity means if you can raise him to the consciousness, Kṛṣṇa consciousness...

Indian (1): Consciousness that he is part and parcel of God.

Prabhupāda: ...then, then, then it is right. And if you keep him in ignorance—you go on all kinds of human service—it is all useless. Śrama eva hi kevalam.

dharmaḥ svanuṣṭhitaḥ puṁsāṁ
viṣvaksena-kathāsu yaḥ
notpādayed yadi ratiṁ
śrama eva hi kevalam
(SB 1.2.8)

If by serving humanity you cannot raise him to the standard of understanding he's part and parcel of God, and his main business is to serve Kṛṣṇa, then it is useless. Śrama eva hi kevalam. So our service to the humanity should be... He is in forgetfulness. He does not know what is his position. If you can raise him to the position that he is part and parcel of God... Unless he comes to the position of serving God, his material condition will continue. Mām aprāpya nivartante mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani (BG 9.3). So, dharmasyāsya janma, parantapa. Aśraddadhānāḥ... Like that. Then that service is useless. If he continues, punar api janma, punar, then his service to the humanity useless. Therefore our service to the humanity should be aimed how to awaken his original consciousness, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is real service. (pause—someone says something—Hindi exchange) It is... There is no benefit. Simply labor of love, that's all. And just like to make one Hindu from Christian, so what benefit you'll get? He is under wrong impression that "I am Christian," and he's brought into another wrong impression—"I am Hindu." But he's neither Hindu nor Christian. He's servant of God. So to turn the Christian, to bring him to become a Hindu, it is useless labor. What benefit it is? A dog is also thinking, "I am dog." And if somebody is thinking, "I am Hindu," so where is the difference? Yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke (SB 10.84.13). If one thinks, "This body, I am"—either Hindu or Muslim or dog or cat, if one is thinking in that way, that "I am this body"—sa eva go-kharaḥ: he's animal. So from one animal to another animal—from cat to dog or from dog to cat—where is the benefit? The position is the same. As a cat he will that "Meow," and as a dog, he'll "Gowl," that's all. That much difference. But he remains animal. Sa eva go-kharaḥ (SB 10.84.13). What is benefit of such humanitarian work? And Bhagavad-gītā says mām upetya kaunteya punar janma na vidyate (BG 8.16). No more either cat or dog. Mām eva. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti (BG 4.9). That is wanted. Punar janma means if I am cat, I become a dog, or if I am a dog, I become cat. That is punar janma. So that will continue his birth and death. Mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani (BG 9.3). What is the benefit? Suppose I am now human being and next life I become either dog or a demigod. So the janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi (BG 13.9) is there, either you become a demigod or a dog. But your position is na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). You have to come to that position.

Indian (1): That is the philosophical and spiritual position.

Prabhupāda: That is real position. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). If you are under the law of birth and death, then it is useless, the same thing—either you become cat or dog or god or anything. Ābrahma-bhuvanāl lokāḥ punar āvartino 'rjuna (BG 8.16). So even if you take your birth in the highest planetary system, Brahmaloka, still, the birth, death, old age is there.

Indian (1): Kṣīṇe puṇye martya-lokam...

Prabhupāda: Martya-lokaṁ viśanti (BG 9.21). So disease continues.

Indian (1): It is a circle.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian (1): And that man himself accepts all these things...

Prabhupāda: That is going on...

Indian (1): ...through his karma.

Prabhupāda: ...that they are karmīs, they are working to go to the heavenly planet. And what he'll do? What he will benefit?

Indian (1): Ārto jijñāsur arthārthī jñānī ca bharatarṣabha (BG 7.16). In lakhs and lakhs people there are one..., it is very difficult to find a jñānī.

Prabhupāda: No, jñānī... One can become jñānī in a moment, provided he wants. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). So jñānavān māṁ prapadyate. So if one surrenders to Kṛṣṇa, he's jñānavān. Otherwise he's a rascal. So if you don't teach how to surrender to Kṛṣṇa, then he remains a rascal. That's all.

Indian (1): It is our duty to teach, to educate the people.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So this is education, that "Surrender to Kṛṣṇa." Otherwise it's not education.

Indian (1): To guide them how to surrender the Almighty. That is our duty.

Prabhupāda: But he does not know what is Almighty. And Almighty is canvassing, and people are refusing. Almighty says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7).

Indian (1): ...kincit asti dhananjaya.

Prabhupāda: So here is Almighty, but who is teaching that "Here is Almighty. Surrender to Him"?

Indian (1): That is āsurī sampatti.

Prabhupāda: This is going on.

Indian (1): Due to āsurī sampatti, people refuse.

Prabhupāda: Refusal or not, people do not teach also, that "Here is Kṛṣṇa, the Almighty, the Supreme. You surrender here." And the Almighty is canvassing, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī mām (BG 18.65). But they'll not do that. And neither their so-called leaders will teach them to do that. So this is going on. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu said that "You become a guru." Āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra' ei deśa (CC Madhya 7.128): "You become a guru and deliver them." So "I am a fool. I have no education. How can I become a guru?" So answer is "No, no. Yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa-upadeśa. If you simply advise people what Kṛṣṇa has said, then you become guru." But if you manufacture your ideas, then you are not a guru.

Indian (1): He has to teach what is the message of the Lord.

Prabhupāda: This is the message: "Surrender unto Me." The message, that God is canvassing, that "Surrender unto Me." Sarva-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66): "Give up all this nonsense engagement. Surrender unto Me." But they are not doing that. Mūḍha. Duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ na māṁ prapadyante (BG 7.15). They're forgetting the real business, and they are engaged in some superfluous nonsense business.

Indian (1): Succumb to some passions and all this.

Prabhupāda: This is going on.

Indian (1): That is by ignorance.

Prabhupāda: Now we are preaching the Kṛṣṇa's words only, and we have become successful all over the world.

Indian (1): Yes, all over the world.

Prabhupāda: And they go, the so-called yogīs, svāmīs, go. They, bag bhak(?). It enters into this ear, goes out this ear. That's all. No effect. Bag bhak.(?) (Hindi with man) ...effective. Svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato bhayāt (BG 2.40). (Hindi with man) "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord."

Indian (1): It's a wonderful thing.

Prabhupāda: "And you just surrender unto Him." And anyone who is doing, he's getting the perfect wisdom.

Indian (1): Hundreds and thousands people are listening to the message of the Lord.

Prabhupāda: We are selling these books, daily five to six lakhs. Daily. What is the message? "Surrender to Kṛṣṇa." That's all. (pause) In one week, how many books we have sold?

Jagadīśa: In one week we've sold 700,000 books. Seven lakhs.

Prabhupāda: Seven lakhs' books in one week.

Indian (1): In one week.

Prabhupāda: (Hindi)

Indian (1): Wonderful thing.

Prabhupāda: Religious books selling, seven lakhs of books in a week, there is no history.

Indian (1): There is no history. There is no another example.

Prabhupāda: And where we are selling? Where Christians are there. They are not Hindus, that they'll read Bhagavad-gītā and Bhāgavata and Cai... They're all Christian, Jews, Muslims. In Muslim country we are also selling. Yes.

Indian (1): Iran, Pakistan.

Prabhupāda: Iran, Pakistan, Egypt.

Trivikrama: Even Chinese.

Prabhupāda: Chinese, yes. And Chinese... Now we have begun in Russia also.

Indian (1): (indistinct Sanskrit) Let me see Russian edition. (break) Bhagavān Kṛṣṇa and... (break)

Prabhupāda: (Hindi)

Indian (1): Yes. No, we are prepared to...

Prabhupāda: Nobody is prepared.

Indian (1): Myself is prepared. Our other colleagues, definitely...

Prabhupāda: (Hindi with man)

Trivikrama: All night he is translating. At night he is translating. All night.

Prabhupāda: (Hindi) ...machine. At night we translate. In daytime they type, and they send to the press, and the books are printed. Then they sell. So in this way I am bringing ten lakhs of rupees per month and investing in constructing these temples.

Indian (1): Constructing these temples.

Trivikrama: Many temples.

Indian (1): Many temples.

Trivikrama: All over India.

Indian (1): All over India. In Mathurā, Vṛndāvana, there is something going on.

Prabhupāda: And that is finished. Our temple is the biggest and the nicest.

Indian (1): Idea is the nice. Devotion is the biggest. So everything naturally...

Prabhupāda: (Hindi)

Indian (1): (Hindi) I will advise my people...

Prabhupāda: Why advise? Why not come practically?

Indian (1): Why not practically they should come?

Prabhupāda: Advise gratis, that will not do. (Hindi with man) We have spent fifty lakhs of rupees. There is very big guesthouse behind the temple.

Indian (1): To continue all the mission and... That is...

Prabhupāda: All over the world.

Indian (1): All over the world.

Prabhupāda: We have got 110 Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa temples all over the world. Where is that, er, Vraja?

Jagadīśa: Brijbasi Spirit.

Prabhupāda: (Hindi with man) Our New Vrindaban... (break) ...that we must give something substantial. (break) This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. Bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra (CC Adi 9.41). (Hindi) (break)

Indian (1): Now it has been introduced in Hindi also.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. You saw Hindi... (break) ...Bhagavad-gītā, Bhāgavata. (Hindi) languages. Bengali. (Hindi with man) (break) ...we received. We have recently received one telegram.

Indian (1): Those are big volumes. It takes time to read it, to go through it. And just a small booklet, a man can keep it in his pocket.

Prabhupāda: We have got three classes: medium class and the...

Indian (1): Volume.

Prabhupāda: Volume... Hardbound big books, and small books. Besides that, magazines. So in one week what we have sold, they have sent one telegram from Los Angeles. (break)

Jagadīśa: December 17 to 24th. That's Christmas week. They sold 117,664 big books, like this.

Prabhupāda: 117,000.

Indian (1): Thousand, yes.

Jagadīśa: One lakh, seventeen thousand in one week. Then medium books like this Īśopaniṣad, they sold 90,737. And smaller books, like this, 63,332. And Back to Godheads, like this magazine, four lakhs, 37,420.

Trivikrama: One week.

Indian (1): In one week. Very wonderful. There is no other comparison for such a sale.

Prabhupāda: We are the number one publisher of religious, philosophical...

Indian (1): Printing and writing attractive, everything is such a nice... That man is attracted, and he goes through the books and writes... (break)

Devotee: So now in America we are slowly starting to understand by Śrīla Prabhupāda's mercy what is the real purpose of Bhagavad-gītā, real purpose of yoga. Unfortunately, we are finding in India people have misunderstood Gītā. And...

Indian (1): Misunderstood Gītā. Now even they are not study. You see, there is no study at all. It is an unfortunate thing here. In our educational system, the slave system coming from British regime, still it is not changed. Unfortunately, whatever change we see, that changes goes anti-religion. So the present generation is suffering.

Prabhupāda: Change means we have lost our culture.

Indian (1): They have lost culture, yes.

Prabhupāda: This is change.

Devotee: So Śrīla Prabhupāda is offering the real Indian culture...

Indian (1): Yes, that is correct, correct. We have to fulfill all these things. We have to teach them, we have to guide them, advise them, make them study—for that purpose conducting some classes in Sanskrit and English, in different languages. These people, every day they are... (break)

Prabhupāda: He has allowed us to go to the United... (break) ...assembly to enlighten them. So we are going there. Recent letter? Where is? (break) (end)