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761227 - Conversation A - Bombay

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

761227R1-BOMBAY - December 27, 1976 - 31:53 Minutes

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Where is Jagadīśa? (break) . . . on the real goal of life.

Jagadīśa: Because they do not know that the goal of human life is to become freed from the repetition of birth and death, therefore there is no, as explained in the First Chapter of the First Canto of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam,

prāyeṇālpāyuṣaḥ sabhya
kalāv asmin yuge janāḥ
mandāḥ sumanda-matayo
manda-bhāgyā hy upadrutāḥ
(SB 1.1.10)

The people in the age of Kali, the age of quarrel, have a short duration of life . . .

Prabhupāda: (aside to child) Oh, you are tiger? How are you, Mr. Tiger?

Indian man: This is Mr. Ganesh elder son.

Prabhupāda: Now, a tiger? Your grandson?

Indian man: Tiger. (Gujarati)

Prabhupāda: No, he is . . . he is tiger? Ācchā. Thank you. Hmm. Go on.

Jagadīśa: People are lazy and unfortunate. They have no knowledge. And besides that, they are misled by foolish leaders. The leaders are intent only on deriving sense gratification from their so-called high position. In the Bhāgavatam also it is explained that men who are like dogs, hogs, camels and asses praise those men who do not glorify the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So the . . . it is a civilization of fools, a fool's paradise, where the common people are allowed to elect from amongst them one so-called leader who is the biggest rascal because he doesn't know anything, and none of the others, the common people, know anything about the purpose of life, and yet this so-called leader becomes elected on the basis that he can do something to help suffering humanity. The material existence is nothing but a struggle against material nature, which ultimately has no value. But it's an illusory struggle because of the spirit soul . . .

Prabhupāda: Why it has no value?

Jagadīśa: Because there is no . . .

Prabhupāda: He'll not say that is has no value. You must give the reason why it has no value.

Jagadīśa: It has no value because there is no permanent connection between the spirit soul and the material energy. The spirit soul . . . there are two kinds of energy: material energy and spiritual energy. We have experience of both. The material energy is described in the Seventh Chapter of Bhagavad-gītā . . .

Prabhupāda: You can describe like this: Just like if a man is diseased, so the physician imposes upon him some restriction, do and do not. So if by mistake we give up the do not's, then it is useless. He should observe the do not's. Then he'll be cured. And if he does not observe the do not's—whatever he likes, he does—that means his disease is increasing. Therefore it is useless. The real aim of life is how to get out of the clutches of māyā which is forcing me to accept the cycle of birth and death. That is my disease. Therefore tapasya. Tapasya means restricted life, not unrestricted life. So if we do not follow the restricted life, that means I shall continue my disease or increase my disease. The modern civilization, we are teaching how to enjoy this material world to the fullest extent, bhogaiśvarya, sense gratification, and for sense gratification, material opulence. But he does not know that he is killing himself. He is aggravating the disease. He has to accept another body. But that he does not know, that he'll have to take birth and die, again the same business. That he does not know. Therefore this civilization is misguided. Yesterday we were reading, tapo divyaṁ yena śuddhyet sattvam (SB 5.5.1). We have to purify our existence. So this aim is missing—how to purify it. Sattva. I am eternal. Now I am existing in a condition, birth and death. That they do not know. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum (SB 7.5.31). He does not know his interest. He's thinking, "This is life. Let me enjoy. And there is no life after death, and even there is, who cares for it?" This is going on.

Guest (1) (Indian man): That tapasya means?

Prabhupāda: Tapasya means restricted.

Guest (1): Protect your mind . . . wed it to the soul, and take away from all extraneous things which are made up of māyā, is that not the meaning?

Prabhupāda: Tapasya means to rescue the soul from this material condition, yena sattvaṁ śuddhyet, to purify your existence. What is the impurification? Impurification is that the soul is subjected to repetition of birth and . . . that is impurification. That he does not know. So he is missing the goal of life, and he's thinking this temporary so-called happiness for twenty years, forty years, fifty years, or utmost hundred years, that is his objective. That is a misleading. He does not know the aim of life. He thinks this material enjoyment to make this body stout and strong and enjoy senses like the hogs. Therefore it has been, na arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye (SB 5.5.1). The suar, hog, he is thinking, "I am eating stool. I am getting fatty. That is my life. And I am enjoying sex without any discrimination." No discrimination of sex, either mother or sister and daughter—it doesn't matter. This is hog's life. He does not know, as soon as he becomes fatty he'll be captured, and the bhaṅgīs will . . . what is called? Toast, make him a toast. In our country they do. In outside of the village they hang the pig, and with fire.

Guest (1): Roast it.

Prabhupāda: Roast. And he, it cries, "Chyaa, chyaa, chyaa." And it is roasted, and they enjoy. But that he does not know. He is getting very strong, but he does not know that he's going to be roasted. Therefore he is misguided. He does not know nature's law.

Guest (1): Sir, isn't the real bhakti . . . (indistinct) . . . dvijātmānaṁ brahma-rūpaṁ deha-tyāgi vibhayaḥ tena kartavyam . . . (indistinct) . . . that type of bhakti is a tapasya. Then you . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: But who is going to take the bhakti? You are going to take sense enjoyment.

Guest (1): That bhakti is a tapa itself. That bhakti is amongst the tapas.

Prabhupāda: Yes, bhakti means tapasya. Just like they are in the bhakti line, they are doing tapasya. They are rising early in the morning, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, observing maṅgala-ārati, no meat-eating, no illicit sex, no intoxication, so many things. It is tapasya. Whole thing is tapasya, tapa, because by this tapasya the contamination of the soul will be cured. Then, if he understands Kṛṣṇa, then he is transferred to the spiritual world. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). He does not come again to accept this material body, and he permanently lives in the spiritual world. That is perfection. The modern civilization, they do not know all these things. They are misguiding that, "You earn to your best extent. Work very hard like hogs." And there is advertisement, "Work hard, the next." (loud sounds of thunder as storm approaches) They are pulling on ṭhelā, rickshaw, still, their leaders advising, "Work hard. Work still more hard." A human being is pulling on ṭhelā and rickshaw, and still hard work. And that rascal does not know that this hard work like hogs and dogs will not make the solution. But they are enthusing, "Yes, work hard. Be stout and strong," as if becoming stout and strong will save him. That's not possible.

Guest (1): Modern civilization is a civilization of class, and Vedic civilization was a civilization of soul. We can say that is all.

Prabhupāda: That is the real civilization. Soul is enwrapped with this material body, and it has to be stopped. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma (BG 4.9). That is civilization. And he has no knowledge, na te viduḥ, what is the civilization. Then andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). The rascal leader is also blind and the followers are blind, so both of them are doomed. Therefore the conclusion is, the modern civilization is misguided. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ. Big, big leaders, they promises big, big ideal that, "I shall give you this facility. Just elect me." What facility he will give? No facility. He gives some false promise and gets his election and claps. Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ (SB 2.3.19). He does not know what is the aim of life. Puruṣaḥ paśuḥ. He is animal also. And the other animals clapping, "Oh, we have got such a big leader." Big elephant, yes. (laughter) And elephant he may be, but he is, after all, a animal. What he'll do? Misguided. (loud sounds of thunder) (welcomes guest) Oh, Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. You don't require any covering?

Guest (2): No, I do, but . . .

Guest (1): (indistinct Hindi) . . . my daughter.

Prabhupāda: I have not seen him?

Guest (1): He used to come.

Prabhupāda: So anyone's question about this, this misdirected civilization? In India there was no such misdirected civilization. Now they have learned how to misguide people, and they have taken this ideal, that "Unless we become like the Europeans and Americans, our progress is checked." This is going on. Actually there is no progress. We are condemned. Why they should waste so much energy for de-gress, not for progress. Before British period, India, there were cities, but not like this, because their energy was utilized. Cities were constructed especially in pilgrimage place, like Mathurā. Mathurā is very old city, but that is a pilgrimage. Dvārakā, that is also very old city. First of all there was no need of big, big cities because there was no industry. They did not know what is industry. And there were ample food—food grains, milk, vegetables. Those who were eating meat, they were eating small, nonimportant animals like goats, hogs, and they never touched cows. Cows are very important animals. Even the stool, urine is important. They knew it. In the agricultural field the cows, passing stool, that is also benefit, natural fertilizing.

Dr. Patel: And from cows' dung we have produced penicillin in Calcutta . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: That may be, but why penicillin is required?

Dr. Patel: No, but that means it had some value right from beginning. Our forefathers must have known it. Why they did not . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no, we are speaking . . . we are speaking . . . because it is important, therefore Kṛṣṇa said, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya. Why go-rakṣya required, you do not require any explanation. Kṛṣṇa said go-rakṣya, "You must protect." That's all. That is Kṛṣṇa conscious. Because we have no brain why Kṛṣṇa—giving up all other animals—He is giving stress on go. And that is meaning. He never said animal-rakṣya, paśu-rakṣya. No. Those who want to eat paśu, let them eat nonimportant like hogs and dogs. There are class of men who eat dogs also, hogs also. Or, utmost, goats. But don't touch cow. This is instruction. And modern civilization first of all killed all the cows. And when they are no more available, then can you eat other animals. I do not know why our government is now restricting cow slaughter.

Dr. Patel: They have banned the cow slaughter all over India now.

Prabhupāda: I know that. Eh.

Guest (3): This is only in Maharashtra, on the . . .

Dr. Patel: They are restricting in Maharashtra also. (indistinct comments on subject by guest)

Prabhupāda: No, what is the reason all of a sudden they have good sense?

Dr. Patel: Vinoba Bhave wanted it.

Prabhupāda: Vinobe Bhave is not so important. There is government policy, something. Otherwise they could not care what Vinobe Bhave said. It is . . . don't think it is due to Vinoba Bhave's request.

Dr. Patel: No, but that is what apparently . . .

Prabhupāda: What Vinoba Bhave . . .? There were so many agitation for stopping cow slaughter, big, big, Karpatra Ji and others, others . . .

Guest (4): One Shankaracarya fasted seventy days.

Prabhupāda: Yes, so they didn't care. Now, all of a sudden, why this good sense? Vinoba Bhave is not very important. There is some policy.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They say that Sanjay Gandhi, who is very influential, is a staunch supporter of Hinduism.

Prabhupāda: Oh, that may be cause.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I read in the papers the other day. He addressed the youth of the Arya-samaj to find out what the . . . (indistinct) . . . is. And he's the leader of the Arya-samaj also.

Prabhupāda: I understand from our propaganda that one . . . what is the Swami?

Devotee: Chandra Swami.

Prabhupāda: Chandra Swami. He is the president?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, of Bharat . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: He has recommended our case that, "This is the only institution who is making the Christian Hindu. Before this movement the Christian converted Hindus. Nobody could convert the Christian to become Hindu. And this is the only movement that is converting Christian to Hindu." So he is very much in favor of this movement, and it is understood that he talked with Indira Gandhi in telephone. So may be that if that Hindu movement is increasing, and in India the cow slaughter is going on, and it is against Hindu, might have considered like that.

Dr. Patel: Pakistan has banned cow slaughter. Yes. Because they had done away by vengeance, all the cows. They wanted to spite the Hindus, kill the cows . . . (indistinct)

Hari-śauri: I don't think they kill cows in China, either, because its economic value is too great.

Prabhupāda: That means they are coming to the sense how cow is important.


Hari-śauri: It is said that he wants to see me.

Hari-śauri: Yes, at Kumbha-melā.

Prabhupāda: That is a fact. Before me, for the last two hundred years, so many svāmīs and yogīs went to the Western countries. Nobody could convert a single person to Hinduism. That is a fact in the history. These foreigners—giving up meat-eating, illicit sex, no intoxication, no gambling—it is a horrible thing for them. Lord Zetland said: "This is impossible for us." Actually it is impossible, because American government spent millions of dollars to stop this LSD intoxication, but it was not successful. But they have seen that as soon as the same boy comes to our camp, he immediately gives up, immediately, without any protest that, "Why shall I give up?" No. I ask, "You have to give up." "Yes, we shall do." That's a fact. Therefore this Swami Chit . . .?

Jagadīśa: Chandra Swami.

Prabhupāda: Ah, Chandra Swami, has strongly recommended that, "This is the only movement which is converting Christian into Hindu." He is pleased on this account. He is not interested our Hare . . . he has said that, "I am not very much interested in Hare Kṛṣṇa, but I am interested in this point." That is natural, that nobody could convert the Christian to Hindu, but this movement is doing that.

Yaśomatīnandana: That is indirectly accepting Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that's a fact. We do not make any compromise. Vivekananda went there. He came back. He said, "What is the wrong in meat-eating?" He introduced meat-eating amongst his contemporary sannyāsīs. This is his Vedānta-pracāra. So he is advertised that he preached Vedānta all over America, and everyone has become Vedāntist. What is . . .? What kind of Vedāntist? Now, he introduced meat-eating amongst the sannyāsīs, which was never in India, any . . . there are two sets of sannyāsīs: the Śaṅkara-sampradāya and Vaiṣṇava-sampradāya. But their ācāra is the same. They may differ in philosophy, but their ācāra is the same. Rather, the Śaṅkara-sampradāya sannyāsī are more strict than the Vaiṣṇava sannyāsī. Śaṅkara sampradāya sannyāsī, they'll never occupy a seat, those who are strictly following. They'll sit down on the floor, without any āsana. They lie down on the floor. They are so renounced. And what is this, that sannyāsī smoking and drinking? And ordinary sannyāsīs, they are drinking also tea, one ghara. I have seen it.

Bhava-bhūti: Now Rajneesh gives sannyāsī and sannyāsinī.

Prabhupāda: Ācchā, yes. Sannyāsinī, woman sannyāsī.

Yaśomatīnandana: It's just a mockery. He's not making any sannyāsī. He's not sannyāsa, he just gives name sannyāsa.

Hari-śauri: Neo-sannyāsa he calls it.

Prabhupāda: No, no, they dress like sannyāsī.

Yaśomatīnandana: They dress, but they smoke bīḍīs, they . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: They say nava-sannyāsa. They say nava-sannyāsa.

Dr. Patel: Neo.

Prabhupāda: Neo-sannyāsa.

Hari-śauri: There were three or four of them came to stay at the guesthouse in Vṛndāvana, Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma guesthouse.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Husband and wife sannyāsa. (laughter)

Hari-śauri: Yes. They were saying: "I am sannyāsī, and my brother is sannyāsī, and my wife is sannyāsī, but my mother-in-law, she is not sannyāsī." (laughter)

Prabhupāda: This is Kali-yuga. Rascals, they are doing anything and any . . .

Yaśomatīnandana: And he also has written Bhagavad-gītā, his own Bhagavad-gītā.

Hari-śauri: It's five to seven.

Prabhupāda: So let us go down.

Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Jaya. (end)