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761226 - Conversation A - Bombay

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

761226R1-BOMBAY - December 26, 1976 - 113.21 Minutes

Devotee (1): I have just come from America, and at the universities, lots of times there are many questions concerning evolution, and I was curious about what our position is in terms of artifacts—bones like dinosaur bones and things like that that the scientists say they found.

Prabhupāda: Scientists are rascals, those who are following Darwin. What is their theory?

Devotee (1): They maintain that from the oceans came one-celled animals. Then from these one-celled animals, they developed into fish and then reptiles. And then these reptiles became very big dinosaurs. And they have put together many big museums. For instance, in Washington the Smithsonian Museum has many, many big bones put together, and they date these millions of years ago.

Prabhupāda: So we have got also the same theory. Jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi sthāvarā lakṣa-viṁśati (Padma Purāna). (break) . . . within water. So where is the difference? We also admit the forms of life begins from the ocean. Then plants. As soon as the water is dried, there are plants, trees. Sthāvarā lakṣa-viṁśati. Sthāvara means the life which cannot move. So the trees, plants, grass, they cannot move. Then insects, then reptiles, then birds, then beast, then human being. In this way the living entity is changing body. So what is the difficulty?

Devotee (1): But they say that the human body developed right from these other bodies. In other words . . .

Prabhupāda: Evolution, from beast human body has come. Where is the difference? Even there is difference, what is the idea?

Devotee (1): Well, they maintain that therefore man was not created by God, but simply by chemicals.

Prabhupāda: Rascals! Wherefrom the life came first? Wherefrom the life came from? When you find life in the water, wherefrom this life came?

Devotee (1): They say originally it came from chemicals that came together.

Prabhupāda: Rascal! Create from chemicals. Otherwise, beat them with shoes in their mouth. "Why you talk nonsense? Create from chemicals, life." (break) What do they say?

Devotee (1): They say they're working on it.

Prabhupāda: Then be beaten with shoes. When you're successful, then say. Otherwise, I shall beat you with shoes. That's all. That is your punishment. You have not come to the experimental stage, and you are talking, "This is science." Science is experiment and observation. Unless the experiment is practical, practical science . . . it will be accepted as science when the experiment is successful. Not before that. That is scientific method. First of all, observe: "It may be happening like this." But that "maybe" should be confirmed by experiment. Then it is science. Even in colleges there is practical examination. Theoretical and practical. So unless . . . "We are trying." Everyone will say: "I am trying." "I am trying to become millionaire." When you become millionaire, then say that you are millionaire. You are trying for becoming millionaire, and you say, "I am millionaire." What is this nonsense? Huh?

Devotee (1): Yes. No one has ever observed the life coming from matter.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just prove that life comes from chemicals. How is that? "I am trying to be millionaire, therefore I am millionaire." What is this nonsense? You are trying to create from chemicals, therefore you are scientist. What's this kind of scientist? Beat them with shoes, that's all.

Guest (1) (Indian man): I have a researcher in our family, and he thinks the theory of evolution is the daśa-avatāra.

Prabhupāda: You can think like that. Your thinking has no value.

Guest (1): No, not my thinking.

Prabhupāda: Then don't say: "I am thinking."

Guest (1): No, I said I have a researcher in our family; he thinks.

Prabhupāda: What research? He's a rascal also!

Guest (1): No, but he thinks the daśa-avatāra . . .

Prabhupāda: "He thinks," means he's a rascal. Nothing to be think. It must be from the śāstra.

Guest (1): Is there any evidence in śāstra that I could look?

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Guest (1): The daśa-avatāras, that the first was Matsya and then Kūrma and Varāha, and finally . . .

Prabhupāda: That is God's pastime. He becomes like this, like that. It is not evolution.

Guest (1): Not evolution.

Guru dāsa: God is not so morphic. He's not an animal. Just like we're in this room but we don't become part of the room. (break)

Śrutaśravā: . . . so clear, but they refuse to accept it 'cause if they do then they will have to give up all their nonsense.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Śrutaśravā: You make all these things so crystal clear, but they refuse to accept, because if they do then they will have to give up all their nonsense.

Prabhupāda: Refusal . . . let them refuse, and who cares for them?

Guru dāsa: Actually, if they were successful in any experiment they would be out of a job. So they actually want material life, scientists.

Prabhupāda: And now what is their science? This is science, that "We are trying"? What is this nonsense science? Do you think this is science? "We are trying." Everyone can say: "I'm trying." Is that science? Then? Any rascal can say that, "I am trying." Is that science?

Amogha-līlā: I heard that you had quoted a saying that anyone who goes to Laṅkā becomes a Rāvaṇa, and that similarly, when the devotees come to India, they become Rāvaṇa. I wonder if you would explain that or elaborate or explain how we can avoid this sort of thing happening. (break) I'm sorry?

Prabhupāda: Ask the leaders. I was talking that in all our other branches, our men manage the cooking and kitchen, and as soon as they come here, they become . . . bara lath saheb (. . . big minister.) That is Rāvaṇa. Why do they not do here? We have to keep some cook who is neither initiated, nor very clean, a smoker, and we have to keep them. (break) In all other branches, the boys and girls, they manage everything. (break)

Amogha-līlā: . . . follow the regulations more strictly?

Prabhupāda: That I have to say again? That means Rāvaṇa. He's asking. I am repeatedly saying that follow, and he's asking. That means he's Rāvaṇa. Why you are inquiring like that? If you know this is the solution, why don't you do it? That means Rāvaṇa. If you know this is the solution, why don't you do it? (break)

Śrutaśravā: . . . one week ago, and in just four days' time the devotees there have distributed over one lakh of Back to Godhead magazines in just four days.

Prabhupāda: But you do not do here. Huh? That means Rāvaṇa. (laughter)

(break) . . . to become less intelligent, less active, and therefore I say, yāya sei laṅkā sei haya rāvaṇa, "Anyone who comes to Laṅkā, he becomes Rāvaṇa."

Guest (1): Their promotion in local language would be very helpful.

Prabhupāda: No, in India will purchase English magazine, he knows English.

Guest (1): Yes, he knows, but the popularity will be much more in the Hindi and Gujarati and Marathi speaking people, Bengali speaking.

Prabhupāda: That is not possible. That is for you, Indians. But you have no time. You are busy with your daughter's marriage, and you simply advise.

Guest (1): I am busy?

Prabhupāda: Yes, everyone. Every Indian is busy with his own affair. He'll come and advise, that's all. Advise gratis. But he will not do himself.

Guest (1): No, but . . .

Prabhupāda: No, this is going . . . I have got full experience that Indians, they will come and give some advice, and go away for daughter's marriage. That's all.

Guest (1): Well there are various types of Indians, you know.

Prabhupāda: That type of, ninety-nine percent.

Guru dāsa: Just like ninety-nine percent of us become lazy when we come to India.

Prabhupāda: You'll advise, but you'll never do it. That is going on.

(break) . . . elephants dance, and we see. This is Indian policy. These white elephants, they'll come and dance, and you'll see. And you are busy with your daughter's marriage. That's all. (break) . . . means vairāgya-vidyā. Vairāgya-vidyā-nija-bhakti-yoga (CC Madhya 6.254). Nobody can become a bhakta unless he has disgusted with material life. "I shall do this, I shall do that." And he'll never do bhakti-yoga. That's all. This is not possible. (break) Before leaving my family life I wanted to get my all sons and daughters married, but some of them disagreed, some of them . . . my wife disagreed. "Let them go to hell, I don't care. Time is up. Never mind you are married or not married. Then see your own business."

(break) . . . I or you, then who will take care of the marriage of your daughter? Suppose you die immediately? Then who will take care?

Guest (1): God will give them . . .

Prabhupāda: Then why don't you do that now? God will take care. It is called, my Guru Mahārāja used to say, civil suicide. Civil suicide. Just like if you commit suicide, that is criminal. But this is voluntarily committing suicide: "Now I am dead. Whatever you like, you do." So we have to commit civil suicide if we are actually attached to Kṛṣṇa. Sarva-dharmān parityajya . . . (BG 18.66). That is gṛha-dharma. But Kṛṣṇa says, "Give up that." But that attachment is there. I do not think . . . suppose I die immediately. Who will take care of my daughter? At that time we say: "God." And why not now?

Guest (1): That feeling of attachment one has to give up gradually.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore we cannot do because the attachment is there. That is the symptom.

Guest (1): Saṅkīrtana will help give up the attachment.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore wherever you stay, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That will help. Thākā ekhana pāiyā. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, try for the daughter's marriage. That will help.

(break) . . . kabhi mithta nahi. (. . . never gets finished.)

Guest (1): Civil suicide is a good thought.

Prabhupāda: That is the thought only. Oh, Doctor saheb.

Dr. Patel: I asked him where you were, and he said that you are on the roof.

Prabhupāda: Jaya. Wo kabh mithta nahi. Samundar jo hai na, uska tufan chalega. Koi sochta hai tufan band ho jaye, tab hum nav chalayenge. Wo sambhav hai nahi. (It never gets over. The waves in the sea will keep on coming. If somebody thinks that he will take out his boat only after the waves subside completely then that's not possible.)

Guest (1): Prakriti hai, wo to chalega. (That is part of nature, it will go on.) (break) Hmm? I do not know. (break)

Dr. Patel: You agreed, huh? . . . (indistinct) . . . is coming.

Prabhupāda: I am going within four days.

Dr. Patel: You go, find out what you . . . and then communicate with you. Huh?

Prabhupāda: No, you asked me to stay at least a few days.

Dr. Patel: But you must stay. If you don't stay, you can't stay, I have got no power to keep you tied here. If you will stay, well and good. If you can't even, well, I will try our best to inform you what should be done in four days. Hmm?

Prabhupāda: Let God do whatever He likes.

Dr. Patel: God will be doing through us.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) . . . sir bhi dukhta hai . . . (indistinct) (. . . I get a headache . . . (indistinct) . . .) . . . blood pressure.

Dr. Patel: But whatever you do . . . (laughs) You do not know . . .

Prabhupāda: No, whatever is there is there. Let it remain. They also require some shelter.

Dr. Patel: We want to find out . . . (indistinct) . . . why you are getting swelling or whether weakness of the heart. There are various reasons why did you get the swelling of the leg, you know. We must find out by biochemical examination of the internal fluids, such as the blood, urine and stool, and put you on the right information. Now if you follow or not is your own sweet will, sir.

Prabhupāda: Nārtasya cāgadam udanvati majjato nauḥ, bālasya neha pitarau śaraṇaṁ nṛsiṁha. Na ārtasya ca agadam. Tāvad vibho tanu-bhṛtāṁ tvad-upekṣitānām (SB 7.9.19). If Kṛṣṇa neglects somebody, then these things will not help.

Dr. Patel: Kṛṣṇa never neglects anybody. You have told once so. It is we, our own actions which we, I mean, forget. We get. If you walk too much then you get tired. If you sit down you do not. If you walk, then there is swelling of the leg, sir. Eh? So it is not Kṛṣṇa. I mean, this is your own saying, eh? I am not manufacturing my own arguments.

Prabhupāda: No, the śāstra says, nārtasya cāga . . . there is no guarantee. But we may try, but there is no guarantee.

Dr. Patel: This is the play of māyā, that we all know. But so long as we are in māyā we have to play our part, haven't we?

Prabhupāda: But it is supposition, the pathologist.

Dr. Patel: No, I am going to bring. That was myself.

Prabhupāda: He'll take blood, he'll take this, he'll take that. So that is another trouble. (chuckles)

Dr. Patel: No, no, but why should you have a minus on blood? Why should you have minus, and whose blood is it? This is your own argument, sir, I am very sorry.

Prabhupāda: No, no . . .

Dr. Patel: Nothing is ours. The body is not ours.

Prabhupāda: When you take blood, there is . . .

Dr. Patel: Not of that . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no, not that, but I feel . . .

Dr. Patel: How you feel? You are a soul! The body feels; you do not feel. Now we are talking about the philosophy.

Prabhupāda: I am not a liberated person.

Dr. Patel: No, but . . . you are liberated soul, we are following you. There are many others, sir, otherwise we would not have come behind you. So, sir, that is not right. And I think I have got a right to prevail upon you. Have I or have I not? Tell me that, or I'll run away back again. (break) . . . it's not full. Who knows? We may be liberated in past birth. That is how I come.

Prabhupāda: That's fine. That's your process. You are trying to do something for the disease.

Dr. Patel: You see, we must know exactly what is happening. After all, science is the same with the Āyurvedic or allopathic or any. Science is, I mean, advancement of man's evolution of the man's understanding about things.

Prabhupāda: I say, but somebody says that . . . what is the medicine? I take some Āyurvedic medicine.

Dr. Patel: No, you do take. We don't say no. You don't take any medicine, we know exactly where you stand, as the modern science explains us. (break) Well, he may not tell us truth immediately, but that is his aim.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Now I am feeling some dizziness.

Dr. Patel: Sit down. You sit down.

Prabhupāda: Where is that sitting place?

Dr. Patel: Niche jayenge ab hum. (We will go downstairs now.) Go down. (break)

Prabhupāda: Harer nāma eva kevalam, kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva nāsty eva (CC Adi 17.21). (break) . . . is a big tank of Calcutta Gas Company. That looks like this.

Dr. Patel: We have got also tank like this in Bombay. We have also gas company tanks. It's in . . . (indistinct) . . . we have bigger tanks here of the petroleum companies. Huge tanks, petroleum tanks.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guru dāsa: When I was in Northern Ireland preaching, they blew it up, the gas tank, by bombs. They blew the whole gas tank up.

Prabhupāda: Where?

Guru dāsa: In Northern Ireland, Belfast.

Dr. Patel: Those terrorists.

Prabhupāda: (referring to seat) It was here. Who has taken?

Guru dāsa: It is coming now. Āsana, āsana. (break)

Prabhupāda: The others, others is not.

Devotee (2): The other seat got taken away, Śrīla Prabhupāda, for cleaning. For making it cleaner.

Devotee (1): We can get mattresses from your room and a pillow if you'd like to sit down.

Prabhupāda: No, no, this is all right. (break)

Dr. Patel: Only tired feel? (break) . . . or may be due to poverty of heart action, or it may be due to some inaction on the part of the kidney or some collection of some obnoxious substances in the blood. That is why we must have an analysis done, so for a right understanding, we can advise you what to do. Anyone can write analysis, acidity and . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Now, everything is less.

Dr. Patel: Then you stay here. And you're completely home, without anything. You are not prepared to . . . this is . . .

Prabhupāda: As soon as this building is, I will take.

Dr. Patel: We listen to you, but you don't listen. That is the misfortune of ours. Huh?

Prabhupāda: Actually, I have got so many engagements. Actually, I have got engagement in Bhubaneswar . . .

Dr. Patel: And you are going to Bhubaneswar after fifteen days, no?

Prabhupāda: . . . Calcutta, in Allahabad, then Māyāpur, then Vṛndāvana, then Bombay.

Dr. Patel: So to make you fit to go round, you must do something. It's very logical.

Guru dāsa: "Penny wise, pound foolish."

Dr. Patel: So let pound be wise for the penny foolish. If you do in right path then you may not break down like . . . (indistinct) . . . getting all this trouble. (break) . . . at least for four, five days. We don't want any more. In one days we will find out what to . . . how to . . . this will be cured. I don't mean medicine, but even advice, food, this, that, other things. If you get rid of the medicine, well, all medicines are, I mean, synthetics. They are not produced from animals. Many of them. (break)

Prabhupāda: Harer nāma eva kevalam (CC Adi 17.21). (break) . . . that sound all the time. (sounds of birds)

Girirāja: Do they have many birds in Bhubaneswar? Are there many birds in Bhubaneswar?

Prabhupāda: Wherever there are nice trees, there will be birds.

Guru dāsa: Girirāja is asking, he thinks there's more birds in Bombay than in Bhubaneswar. Girirāja Prabhu is stating there is more birds in Bombay.

Dr. Patel: There are more crows in Bombay than any other place. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: No, no. They are also birds.

Dr. Patel: There are very more filthier, for the crows, to clean.

Guru dāsa: So Prabhupāda should go, then.

Dr. Patel: No, you see, if the good people is there, up there, you know the filth disappears.

Guru dāsa: That's what the śāstra says. The sun dries up urine in a filthy place.

Dr. Patel: So he must be here. Another argument, and he will answer.

Guru dāsa: Yes, but there is also urine in Bhubaneswar.

Dr. Patel: In Bhubaneswar you are going to have any plan for making a temple?

Prabhupāda: What is my plan, that is always there, that is to print books and construct temples. Throughout the whole world this plan is going on: fifty percent construction, fifty percent printing books. Whatever I get money, I give him. That's all. I am the same beggar, either it comes ten lakhs or fifty lakhs, ten crores.

Dr. Patel: You are exhibiting this body to be "I". Acchedyo 'yam adāhyo 'yam akledyo 'śoṣya eva ca (BG 2.24).

Prabhupāda: No, no, that is different.

Dr. Patel: You come down to body consciousness and talk to us. We want you to talk from higher consciousness.

Prabhupāda: I have no higher consciousness.

Dr. Patel: Then talk from the lower consciousness, still lower.

Prabhupāda: Why should I?

Dr. Patel: Let us go out and make a business in the stock market.

Prabhupāda: I am doing business. I am selling books. (laughter)

Dr. Patel: Stock exchange. Why not? It is very easy.

Prabhupāda: I am selling books.

Dr. Patel: Why not a Wall Street operation? It is very easy.

Prabhupāda: They are all engaged in doing business.

Dr. Patel: Have you wanted a businessman to come?

Prabhupāda: I am doing business.

Guest (3): Prabhupada ke mafik duniya me koi businessman hai? (Is there any businessman like Prabhupāda in the world?)

Dr. Patel: Ye to baniya hai. Baniya . . . (He is a businessman. A businessman) is a sweet-oil tongued fellow.

Guest(3): Prabhupāda itna bada businessman hai. World ka sab businessman fail ho gaya. (Prabhupāda is such a big businessman that all businessmen of the world have failed before him.)

Dr. Patel: We can still make a bigger business in Wall Street. Have a Wall Street here in Bombay and . . . (laughs)

Prabhupāda: You are criticizing the bāniyās. The bāniyās criticize the doctor. (laughter)

Dr. Patel: And doctor criticizes you.

Prabhupāda: Bāniyās say, they say, nal jal jocchuri teen niye daktari, (one tap, a little water and cheating, make up a quack doctor.)

Dr. Patel: Nal jal . . .?

Prabhupāda: Jocchuri.

Dr. Patel: Jocchuri means?

Prabhupāda: Cheating. Suniye na. Teen chiz chahiye unko. Ek nal chahiye aur pani, lal-nil pani . . . (Just listen. Three things are needed. One tap, red or blue coloured water . . .) Or all cheating words.

Dr. Patel: But according to our śāstra, it is so.

Prabhupāda: No, no, this is according to bāniyā, the doctor is calculated . . .

Dr. Patel: Bāniyā is right in that way. Bāniyā is right.

Prabhupāda: Humara Bangla desh me bolta hai je nal jal jocchuri, teen niye daktari. (In Bengal, they say that three things are needed to become a quack doctor, one tap, little water and cheating words.)

Dr. Patel: In Bengali.

Prabhupāda: In Bengali village there are many quacks. You know that. Everywhere. (laughter) So what their business? Nal jal jocchuri teen niye daktari. (One tap, a little water and cheating make up a quack doctor.)

Dr. Patel: In Mahābhārata, in Vidura-nīti, Vidura has mentioned that a doctor should not be trusted and should not be allowed to come in the house. I am reading presently that part of Mahābhārata. Why? Because they must be right from the beginning, in olden times also they must be of the same type.

Prabhupāda: Another place, Vaiṣṇava says, either he is businessman or doctor, anyone, they are all madmen.

piśācī pāile yena mati-cchana haya
māyā-grasta jīvera haya se bhāva udaya

Jaise koi admi ko bhoot pakad leta hai. (Just like a person who is haunted by a ghost.) Ghostly-haunted. And he talks all nonsense. Similarly, anyone who is in the material condition, he is a ghostly haunted man. So he can talk anything, all nonsense. Piśācī pāile yena . . . this is applicable to everyone. Anyone who has got this material body, he's ghostly-haunted. Therefore we are explaining that verse, that first treatment is how to get out of the clutches of this ghost which has attacked everyone. So ghostly haunted man, he's himself a victim of the ghost. How he can treat other men? He's also haunted by the ghost. This is the position. Even one may say: "I am haunted by a better ghost." That may be, but every one of us ghostly haunted. And śāstra says this is treatment: tapasya. Tapo divyaṁ putrakā, yasmād sattvaṁ śuddhyed (SB 5.5.1). Sattva. Sattva, our existence, is polluted. The first business . . .

(break) . . . the skin and bone. The skin and bone will continue so long I am in the material condition of life, either bird's skin . . . just like who was talking of evolution? Who was? (indistinct answer by devotees) Yes. This disease of skin and bone will continue. Because the spirit soul is not the bone and skin. The Darwin's theory, he is putting that the bone is changing. The bone is not changing. You get different bones in different life. I am changing my position. I am going from one apartment to another apartment. The apartment not changing; I am changing apartment. That is the difference between Darwin's theory and our theory. They are thinking the apartment is becoming another apartment. No. The apartments are already there. I am entering different apartments as I can pay for it. That is karma. According to my karma, I am sometimes residing in one apartment, in another apartment. This is going on. The Darwin's theory, the apartment is changing. That's not the fact. Fact is I am living entity. Tathā dehān . . . Kṛṣṇa also says, tathā dehāntara. Apartment antara. The spirit soul is the same. There is no change. That is spirit always, but according to his karma, he is going from this apartment, or this body, tathā dehān . . . that is the main point with the modern science and our Vedic knowledge. That is the main difference. They have no idea of the existence of the soul, and therefore say: "We are trying to make. We are trying to make." This rascaldom is going on. You cannot make soul. That is not possible. You cannot do anything. You cannot make even the body, what to speak of the soul. This is . . .

Dr. Patel: Modern scientists don't say that we can make the soul. Soul is permanent in every man.

Prabhupāda: No, the rascals say: "We can create." So that rascal, number of that rascal is more. They are saying, bluffing that, "Now we shall create chemicals. We are trying." This is going on. Just this morning he was saying.

Dr. Patel: It is the theory of these people, I think, that . . .

Guest (4): Communists.

Dr. Patel: Communists.

Prabhupāda: That means rascalism. Not a single soul has been created till now and these rascals are claiming that they are going . . . and they are scientists. We have to accept them as scientists. Just see. This is . . . not only now. One gentleman, one big doctor, chemist, he has got Nobel Prize, he came to California, and our Dr. Svarūpa Dāmodara, he was in the also in the university, he's also doctor and chemist. So he was speaking on the chemical evolution. So he's my student, he challenged him that, "If I give you chemicals, can you prepare life?" "That I cannot say."

Dr. Patel: Even a living cell of life . . .

Prabhupāda: No, it was meeting. When Svarūpa Dāmodara challenged him that, "Suppose I give you the chemicals, right chemicals. Can you prepare a life?" Then he said: "That I cannot say." Why? Why do you say nonsense?

Dr. Patel: Because their definition of life is very meager. They say that life is a chemical imbalance, a state of chemical imbalance. That is wrong. Life is something higher than . . .

Prabhupāda: Therefore these chemists—they are predominating—so how it is possible to take their version? (greets someone) Aiye. Baithiye. (Please come. Take your seat.) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya.

(break) . . . a simple version of Vaiṣṇava:

piśācī pāile yena mati-cchana haya
māyā-grasta jīvera haya se bhāva udaya

Jaya. Wherefrom you are coming?

Devotee (2): From London.

Prabhupāda: Oh. You are Englishman?

Devotee (2): Yes. English.

Prabhupāda: Stay here. We want some Englishmen. (laughter) No. We want Englishmen, Australian, Canadian, because they have no visa problem.

Dr. Patel: American will have no visa problem very soon.

Guru dāsa: Why?

Dr. Patel: There is no question why. We'll understand it.

Prabhupāda: No, no, that's all right. So the visa problem is a great problem for us, because in India for conducting our movement, we have to import the white men. Our Indians, they are not joining. So that is a great problem for me. They have to come, and they have to go again. And each time coming and going, ten thousand rupees. And that is happening at least one hundred cases every year. Ten thousand, hundred times, just imagine. This is my economic problem. Therefore I'm asking, "If you are Englishman, please stay." Because here, in India, they will see that, "The white man dancing, let us see." They will never join. They are busy with their own affairs. They will advise, "Do this, do that," but they will never come. This is my position. Practical. Therefore I'm begging the Englishmen, the Canadians, the Australians, "Please come and stay." Because huge establishment, who will manage? I am managing with them, but there is economic question. For each person I have to spend ten thousand rupees at least, and such hundred case . . .

Devotee: One million.

Prabhupāda: This is the position. The Indians are not interested. They are not interested.

Dr. Patel: You are firing everyone, so they run away. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: What can be done? This is real position.

Dr. Patel: Only I am a fool, not running away. (laughter) He says, Prabhupāda, "You rascals . . ."

Prabhupāda: Everyone may be a fool, but if he continues to remain a fool, that is very bad. (laughter)

Dr. Patel: A fool is a fool always. He cannot change his habits . . .

Prabhupāda: More or less every one of us, we are fool, mūḍha. Kṛṣṇa has stated mūḍha, mūḍha. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). He has chastised like anything. Tān ahaṁ dviṣataḥ krūrān kṣipāmy ajasram aśubhān (BG 16.19). So anyone who's not taking to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he is within these categories: duṣkṛtina, narādhama, mūḍha, māyayāpahṛta-jñāna, āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritaḥ. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness is Indian movement, but na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ. They are not taking seriously. That is the position. It is our movement. Kṛṣṇa came in India, and because India is so glorified place, puṇya-bhūmi, even the demigods, they desire. Not India; this planet, Bhārata-varṣa. Formerly, the whole Bhārata-varṣa means whole planet. Anyway, for the time it is now minimized. So it is not ordinary land.

So our men, they are not interested in such great movement. How much regrettable it is. And who are they? Kṛṣṇa says, na māṁ prapadyante mūḍhāḥ duṣkṛtino narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). If you speak the truth, then you take the quotation of Kṛṣṇa. Now every Indian should take part in this great movement. Every Indian. That is the Caitanya Mahāprabhu's order.

bhārata-bhūmite haila manuṣya-janma yāra
janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra
(CC Adi 9.41)

It is para-upakāra. India's business is para-upakāra. India's business is not exploitation. That is Indian. And para-upakāra means not that daridra-nārāyaṇa bhojana. No. Para-upakāra means to give him knowledge, for want of which he is suffering. That is real . . .

mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ
jīva-loke sanātanaḥ
manaḥ ṣaṣṭhānīndriyāṇi
prakṛti-sthāni karṣati
(BG 15.7)

This is his real suffering. He's part and parcel of God. Qualitatively, he's as good as God, but he's suffering. Why he's suffering? Manaḥ ṣaṣṭhānīndriyāṇi prakṛti-sthāni karṣati (BG 15.7). He has come to this material world, prakṛti, and . . . or mental concoction, he's creating his plan and struggling for existence. This is real suffering. So Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means to save him from real suffering. That Indians should take very seriously and join this movement. And para-upakāra, people need it all over the world. Otherwise, why these young boys, they have joined me? They are finding something relief by this movement. Otherwise, what business he has got to join with an Indian, poor Indian? I went to their country with forty rupees, that's all. So they are finding something relief. And actually it is relief. So our Indians are not interested. India is supposed to be the . . . what is called? Benefactor, or . . .?

Dr. Patel: Deva-bhūmi, deva-bhūmi.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

bhārata-bhūmite haila manuṣya-janma yāra
janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra
(CC Adi 9.41)

But this knowledge is here. Huh?

Dr. Patel: So they came, and we are there in the knowledge already. Apan mandir me jayenge? (Are we going to the temple?)

Prabhupāda: Time ho gaya kya? (Is it time to go?) You can sit down here? No?

Girirāja: I feel this is important.

Prabhupāda: All right. So, sab bharata-varshi, young men, jitne hai, sabhi movement ko lijiye seriously. (So all young Indians should take this movement seriously.) It is not ordinary movement. Ye cheating movement nahi hai. (This is not a cheating movement.) This is real movement. Kṛṣṇa, what Kṛṣṇa is speaking, what Caitanya Mahāprabhu is speaking, that is not cheating. That is real solution of the problem. So we have taken the business of Kṛṣṇa, Caitanya Mahāprabhu. So every intelligent person, intelligent young man . . . now we have got . . . we have got everywhere, but especially now in Bombay—it is important city—we have constructed this. We can keep at least five hundred, six hundred men in these buildings. But who is coming? Nobody's coming.

Dr. Patel: If they all come, then it will be difficult for you.

Prabhupāda: Then let them come first of all. (laughter) There is no "if." There is sufficient place. Come. But nobody's coming. They want to see, "Let these white men come and we see." That's all. "We see the fun." This is going on. They are coming. They are disgusted, but we are not disgusted. That is the difficulty. Therefore I was speaking to this boy, "You are Englishman. You have come." It's a problem now in Māyāpur, here. And the government is after them as soon as three months pass, "Get out, get out, get out, get out." Then how shall I conduct my business, a big, big establishment? This is another problem. But Kṛṣṇa is doing His own business. But practically seeing. This is India's business. Bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra (CC Adi 9.41). Manuṣya-janma, not the cats and dogs, but those who have taken the human form. It is their business. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra, janma sārthaka . . . first of all, make your life successful by understanding the philosophy. Then, janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra, preach this philosophy all over the world. That is para-upakāra. So actually that is being done. They understand; they are understanding this philosophy. There is struggle now in foreign countries. There is opposition now. Hmm? Who will explain what is the opposition?

Girirāja: Today we just got a new package from New York from this boy. And some of the parents were charging that we were kidnapping and mentally imprisoning their children by making them devotees. Because from their point of view their children were lost to our movement. So . . .

Prabhupāda: He's a lost child. His father and mother came to me, and mother was crying. I said: "So take your son." And the son will not go. (laughter)

Dr. Patel: You are washing away their brains.

Prabhupāda: (laughing) So they are charging like that. What is the new charge? Huh?

Śrutaśravā: Śrīla Prabhupāda, they are saying "mind control."

Prabhupāda: (laughing) "Mind control." Yes.

Śrutaśravā: Śrīla Prabhupāda, so many . . . all the big scholars in America, all the big famous scholars, they have put together one petition saying how authorized our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement are. And they are willing to come forward now. If any time they want some papers in the courtroom to show how bona fide our movement is, how we are actually not brainwashers and mind-controlled, there are these scholars in America, they have pledged their support.

Girirāja: There was a meeting of four big scholars at Harvard University—it's like the Oxford of America. And one famous theologian named Cox . . .

Prabhupāda: Harvey Cox?

Girirāja: Yes, and Kīrtanānanda Swami. His books are very famous. And they have brought up this issue of freedom of religion, that this is a bona fide religious movement and we should have freedom to worship. Then there's also a letter from a member of the World Fellowship of Religion, and he is also saying that he takes this very seriously and very grave, that such a bona fide movement is not being allowed to practice their religion freely. And then there's one, I think, Professor Sharma at one American University, and he is . . .

Prabhupāda: Sharma or Sukla?

Girirāja: No, another one. Not Sukla. And this Sharma is saying that he has personal experience that this is a bona fide movement, and that the American public in general may not know, but A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami is one of the renowned writers of translations of Vedic translations and commentaries of Vedic literature. (break) And then Ādi-keśava Mahārāja is going with . . . a Swami? Chandra Swami, some Indian svāmī in America. But he's going with Ādi-keśava Mahārāja to meet the new President of the United States on January 27th.

Prabhupāda: He's going to see?

Girirāja: Yes, Jimmy Carter. On January 20th he will become the next President. So Ādi-keśava Mahārāja and this one Indian sannyāsī, they are going to make a representation to the new President.

Prabhupāda: Who is that Indian svāmī?

Śrutaśravā: His name is Chandra Swami.

Prabhupāda: Chandra Swami? So why . . .?

Guest (4): He's a young man.

Prabhupāda: He must be Māyāvādī.

Girirāja: I'm sure he is.

Prabhupāda: He's taking advantage of this. He's a Māyāvādī.

Guest (4): He's a man who is following tantric.

Prabhupāda: So what is this nonsense? This should not be . . . he should not accompany. He's taking advantage of it.

Guest (4): He's also directly associated with the Prime Minister, this young man, Chandra Swami.

Dr. Patel: The Prime Minister is the greatest Māyāvādī.

Prabhupāda: Māyayāpahṛta-jñāna (BG 7.15). Māyāvādī means māyā has taken his knowledge. Māyayāpahṛta-jñāna. Ninety-nine percent they are Māyāvādīs.

Guest (4): Swāmījī, what about those missionaries who are working in India who are coming from abroad, and they are actually exploiting? If they put a charge against our institution, well, we can definitely say that we are motivating the intellect to take into the higher stage of life. Here the missionaries who come, they go in the backward areas, and those who are not learned, those who are practically uneducated . . . I mean, their mission is to convert them in Christianity. You see, that charge is rather more grave than the particular one which they have leveled against us. You see, we can put that argument, isn't it? How many Hindus are converted into Christianity? We are not converting them, we are just . . .

Prabhupāda: Our case is not that we are going to convert one Hindu to Christian, or Christian to Hindu. There is no meaning. Our is, sarva-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66). Even if you are Hindu, even you are Muslim, you are Christian, kick it out. That is our movement. We do not advocate that "You are Christian; you become Hindu." Or "You are Hindu; you become . . ." They are taking like that. But our movement is not that.

Guest (4): That's what I say.

Prabhupāda: Our movement is, either you are Hindu, either you are Muslim, either you are Christian, you kick out all this. Sarva-dharmān parityajya. Simply you become surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, or God. This is our . . . and anyone who can do that, he is first-class religious. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje (SB 1.2.6). Adhokṣaja. God's name is Adhokṣaja. You cannot see Him beyond your material perception. So if you are trained up to surrender to God, then you are religious. We do not say that you become Hindu or Muslim or Christian or this or that. We do not say so.

Dr. Patel: But all Christians, if they truly are . . . I mean Hindus, that Christ . . .

Prabhupāda: No, either he become Hindus, that does not mean the Hindus are perfect. We do not mean that. Even if he becomes Hindu, what is the benefit? No benefit.

Dr. Patel: No. Even he becomes a Christian, there is no benefit.

Prabhupāda: I say any religious stamp, material, there is no benefit. Therefore Kṛṣṇa said, sarva-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66). You have to give up all these designations. And bhakti, love of Godhead, or service to God, begins when you are relieved from these designations. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam (CC Madhya 19.170). When becoming God conscious you become completely purified, then your devotional life begins. And so long you are entangled with this designation, there is no question of devotional service. Either you Hindu or Muslim or Christian, it doesn't matter. So our business is not that, that we convert a Hindu to a Christian or a Christian to a Hindu. That is not our business. They are thinking, because we dress like that, with tilaka, with māla, they think "Hindu." But it's not our business to convert the Christians to become Hindus, as all other missionaries, they are doing. They are trying to increasing the number of Christian or Hindus.

So our . . . there is no question of increasing. It is very difficult to accept.

manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu
kaścid yatati siddhaye
yatatām api siddhānāṁ
kaścin māṁ vetti tattvataḥ
(BG 7.3)

Kṛṣṇa consciousness is not so easy. Out of millions and millions of persons, one becomes perfect. And out of millions of perfect, one may understand Kṛṣṇa. That is the version of Kṛṣṇa. So Kṛṣṇa consciousness is not so easy that everyone, each one will become Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It is very difficult. But by the grace of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, by this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, this is helping. Otherwise, it is very difficult task. Very difficult. It is recommended in the śāstra, kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet (SB 12.3.51). Simply the Kali-yuga, kaler doṣa-nidhe rājann asti hy eko mahān guṇaḥ (SB 12.3.51). This is the version of Śukadeva Gosvāmī. He described the faulty ocean of this Kali-yuga, and at last he encouraged that "Mahārāja, there is one opportunity in this age." Kaler doṣa-nidhe rājann asti hy eko mahān guṇaḥ, very great opportunity. What is that? Kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya: simply by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, mukta-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet, he becomes liberated and he goes back to home. This opportunity we are preaching. That's all. Otherwise, to understand Kṛṣṇa is not so easy thing. This opportunity, kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya. And Caitanya Mahāprabhu also recommends, harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma eva kevalaṁ kalau nāsty eva (CC Adi 17.21). Otherwise, in this age, very difficult. (break)

Guest (4): During the Kumbha-melā we are having our anna-kṣetra to serve the direct sādhus. We already started our camp on 21st December to last after 10th of February. If Mahārāja and all other devotees, they can definitely offer free arrangements over there because we have got the best camp. We have got the best camp.

Prabhupāda: So why should we spend for our camp? (laughter)

Guest (4): We are just on the bed of the river, far away from the melā, which is about three, four . . . we have our āśramas at various places, you know.

Prabhupāda: What is this philosophy?

Guest (4): What is?

Prabhupāda: What is the philosophy?

Guest (4): Philosophy is bhajana, Ādi Śaṅkarācārya.

Prabhupāda: But whether you recognize Kṛṣṇa . . .

Dr. Patel: Yes, sir, he was our guru. We have published a book from the Calcutta University, so just take your remise. Leave the book for you.

Prabhupāda: Oh, this is for me? Baithiye, baithiye. Thoda Vedānta philosophy par charcha kijiye. (Please sit, please sit. Let us have a small discussion on Vedānta philosophy.) Let us discuss. What is Vedānta philosophy? Let us discuss something. You belong to this camp, so what is Vedānta?

Guest (4): Ādi Śaṅkarācārya's preaching, actually defining God as what he thought.

Prabhupāda: Then what is the meaning? Everyone can think of God according to his whims. You say: "As he thought." That is not standard.

Guest (4): So, what he describes . . .

Prabhupāda: No, first of all, let us . . . whether if you think of God in your own way, is that valid or not?

Guest (4): Because he has given a thought to it, you know. He has thought about it.

Prabhupāda: Anything might be the first-class thought, but do you think that any man can think of God and create God? Do you think it is all right?

Guest (4): Well, we are guided by those who have given a thought to it and who have meditated actually.

Prabhupāda: You said that, "As he thought."

Guest (4): Yes.

Prabhupāda: So God is unlimited and you are limited. So how you can think of God?

Guest (4): You see, I'll just quote one of his stanzas which reveal . . .

Prabhupāda: I am talking . . .

Guest (4): I understand your point of view, but I'm just, to Your Holiness, in the last stanza of his advaita philosophy, he says, ahaṁ nirvikalpo nirākāra rūpa vibhur apya sarvatra sarvendriyāṇi sadame sama . . .

Prabhupāda: Who says "aham"?

Guest (4): Śaṅkarācārya.

Prabhupāda: That means a person is thinking of God. So that is my point, whether an individual person can think of God and ascertain that "Here is God."

Guest (4): He comes to that particular conclusion, though, Your Holiness, he comes . . . he says that ahaṁ nirvikalpa nirākāra rūpa . . .

Prabhupāda: So nirākāra . . . if you are speaking, then how he can become nirākāra?

Guest (4): He actually defines what prevails in the universe, what is that element which governs us.

Prabhupāda: Let us just discuss from the point. As you say that, "I think" and "I speak," so when you speak, when you think, whether you are nirākāra or ākāra.

Guest (4): He defines, ultimately, after all thinking . . .

Prabhupāda: I am asking you.

Guest (4): He has come to that conclusion.

Prabhupāda: I'm asking you that when you think, when you . . . what is that other thing? Speak. So can anybody who is nirākāra, he can think and speak? Is there any experience? So what is the use of talking like that?

Dr. Patel: Thinking is done by the mind, and mind is not soul.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So, no, whatever it may be. If I think, if I speak, I am ākāra; I'm not nirākāra. And that is for everyone. This is contra . . .

Guest (4): What is that "everyone"?

Prabhupāda: What it may be. First come to the platform of understanding. As soon as I think, I speak, this speaking, I'm thinking, is not coming from nirākāra.

Guest (4): But what is that "I"?

Prabhupāda: "I" means . . . what do you mean by "I"? I am person, you are person. When I say "I say," you say that we are person. So how you can say nirākāra? It must be common knowledge. When I say "I speak," that is not nirākāra. How it can be nirākāra? It is contradictory.

Guest (4): It is not contradictory, but . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, it is contradictory. Unless you have got a personality, you cannot speak, you cannot think. So how it is nirākāra? That is my first point. Kṛṣṇa says "aham." He is person. We worship Kṛṣṇa as person. He says, aham ādir hi devānām (BG 10.2). That "aham," He's person. We are accepting Kṛṣṇa as person because He says, aham ādir hi devānām.

ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo
mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate
iti matvā bhajante māṁ
budhā bhāva-samanvitāḥ
(BG 10.8)

He's person. Kṛṣṇa never said that, "I am nirākāra." Where He has said? Can you quote any verse? When He says nirākāra, He says like this: mayā tatam idaṁ sarvam (BG 9.4). Mayā, "by Me." Tatam idaṁ sarvam, "everywhere, by My energy." Just like the sun-god. The sun-god is within the sun globe. His bodily luster is coming. The sun-god can say: "The sunshine is my bodily exposition." That is reasonable. Just like a big light, it has got exposition. Similarly . . . and that is confirmed in the śāstra: yasya prabhā prabhavataḥ (BS 5.40). Yasya, the person.

yasya prabhā prabhavato jagad-aṇḍa-koṭi-
koṭiṣv aśeṣa-vasudhādi-vibhūti-bhinnam
tad brahma niṣkalam anantam aśeṣa-bhūtaṁ
govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ . . .
(BS 5.40)

So when Kṛṣṇa said, mayā tatam idam, mayā means, "I am there." But "I" is existing. That "I", person, is existing. Just like if I say that "It is I who has expanded. I am expanded all over the world by this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement," that's a fact. But that does not mean I am not a person. If I say that, "I am . . . this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement means I am, I am spread by spreading this movement," that's a fact. But does it mean that I am imperson? That is, Kṛṣṇa says: mayā tatam idaṁ sarvaṁ jagad avyakta-mūrtinā. Avyakta. So the same example we can give that in all my branches, 110 branches, they worship me as their guru. Mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni (BG 9.4): "Everything is existing on My management." Nāhaṁ teṣu avasthitaḥ: "But I am not there." It is a fact. All these 110 branches, they are going on under my direction, but not that I am present everywhere. But that does not mean I am not a person. So the supreme, the supreme manager, the supreme controller, how He can be nirākāra? That is my first question.

Dr. Patel: He means to say, sir, that the māyākāra is not there. But the divyākāra is there, as we say. Let us understand him.

Prabhupāda: No, He . . . nirākāra is there. So far His management power is going on, that is nirākāra. But that nirākāra does not mean that I am also nirākāra. That is the defect. The Supreme Person, it is confirmed by the śāstra. The Absolute Truth is person ultimately.

vadanti tat tattva-vidas
tattvaṁ yaj jñānam advayam
brahmeti paramātmeti
bhagavān iti śabdyate
(SB 1.2.11)

So those who are simply captivated by the Brahman, nirākāra, they are in the . . . just in the beginning of knowledge. Their knowledge is not perfect. That is not Vedānta. That is knowledge, but it is not anta. And Vedānta means the ultimate knowledge. And that is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā: vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyaḥ (BG 15.15). If one does not know Kṛṣṇa, he's not a Vedāntist. That is my point. He does not know what is Vedānta. The veda-anta means Kṛṣṇa. Anta means the last word. The last word is brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate. Bhagavān. Unless one goes to the Supreme Lord Bhagavān, Kṛṣṇa, he's not a Vedāntist. That is my point. Veda means knowledge.

Dr. Patel: Sir, Śaṅkarācārya also said, bhaja govindaṁ bhaja govindaṁ bhaja govindam . . .

Prabhupāda: That's all right. One who says . . . we are studying from our common sense. Veda means knowledge, and anta means the last. And Kṛṣṇa says, vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyaḥ (BG 15.15). So unless you know Kṛṣṇa, there is no question of Vedānta. There may be Veda . . .

Guest (4): Knowledge.

Prabhupāda: Hah, knowledge. But that is not the ultimate knowledge. The ultimate knowledge will come when you surrender to Kṛṣṇa. That is said in the Bhagavad-gītā: bahūnāṁ janmanām ante (BG 7.19). Therefore all these so-called Vedāntists, they will have to wait for many millions of years to understand Kṛṣṇa. That is the position. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante. And if he's actually in knowledge, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate. That is the sign. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ (BG 7.19). That is wanted. So Vedāntist, so-called Vedāntist, we do not approve them because they have not come to the ultimate point of knowledge. This is clear. Veda means knowledge; anta, anta means the last point. So unless you come to that last point of knowledge, that is not Vedānta. That may be Veda, but it is not Vedānta. Vedānta means māṁ prapadyate. Now, whether you approve these statements? Vedānta means to know Kṛṣṇa. Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyo vedānta-kṛd vedānta-vid ca aham.

Dr. Patel: "I am the main meaning of the Vedas."

Prabhupāda: Yes, He is the . . . so He can speak what is Vedānta. And unless one accepts this Vedānta, he's not a Vedāntist. Therefore some of our Vaiṣṇava friends, they have given me this title, Bhaktivedanta. In 1947, something, they, purposefully, they gave me the title that Vedānta means bhakti. "So you take this title, 'Bhaktivedanta.' " And we are preaching this Vedānta, that the ultimate platform of Veda, knowledge, is to understand Kṛṣṇa. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti (BG 7.19). Aham ādir hi devānām (BG 10.2). Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate (BG 10.8). Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7). So He's person; He's speaking. So not that . . . the Māyāvādīs, they take that paratattva is the nirākāra-brahman. But that is not paratattva. Here the person says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya. So if you have to accept Kṛṣṇa as the supreme authority, then Vedānta means, He says also, to know Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise, it is not anta. It may be middle, it may be beginning, but not anta.

Dr. Patel: Sir, Śaṅkarācārya has made so many obstructs for this bhakti. And I mean to follow it . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no, I'm talking of Kṛṣṇa. There are many other talkers. We are concerned because we are Kṛṣṇa conscious. Kṛṣṇa conscious means whatever Kṛṣṇa says, we accept. That's all. That is our philosophy. We may be fools and rascals, doesn't matter. But we accept what Kṛṣṇa says, that's all. Like a child, he's a child, he may be a fool. But when the father says: "My dear child, this is called microphone," and if the child says: "This is microphone," that is correct, because he takes the word of the father, who knows things. He may be child. So our business is like that. We don't claim ourself to be very learned, very advanced. We are fools and rascals. (break)

"How can I become guru?" one may say: "I am not so learned, I am not so . . ." "No, no, you haven't got to bother. Still you can become guru." "How?" Yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128). "If you simply repeat what Kṛṣṇa has said, then you become guru." That's all. So our business is that. We are guru not that because we are very learned, so-called Vedāntist. No. We are lowest of the lowest. But we are faithful to the words of Kṛṣṇa. That's all. We have no other business. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has ordered, yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128). Bās. Very easy. And that is being effective. Now because I am carrying these words of Kṛṣṇa throughout the whole world, perhaps I have done the best service than the combined so much Vedāntists. All the Vedāntists of India could not do that. That's a fact. How it has become possible? Because we are simply speaking what Kṛṣṇa has spoken. That's all. Yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa . . . that's all. I do not claim that I am Sanskrit scholar, I am this big man, that man. No. Whatever books I have written, only about this—Kṛṣṇa.

In our book in every page you will find Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa. My Guru Mahārāja, if we used to write some article, so we wanted to show him how it is written. So he was very busy. So somebody would read, and Guru Mahārāja would say: "How many times he has said 'Kṛṣṇa'?" (laughter) If he finds that in every page there is "Kṛṣṇa," it is all right. That's all. (laughter) So we are making Vedāntist, "How many times he chants Kṛṣṇa?" If he chants always Kṛṣṇa, yes, he's Vedāntist. That's all. Bās. Because śāstra says, kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet (SB 12.3.51). That is being effective. These boys, their forefathers or their father, grandfather, never knew what is Kṛṣṇa. But kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet. That is actually fact. So unless there is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, there is no question of Vedānta. That is my point. Ācchā. Jayenge . . . udhar nahi jana. (We shall go . . . but not there.)

Dr. Patel: Zyada nahi bolne ka. (We should not say too much.)

Prabhupāda: Nahi, Krishna naam to bolna hi hai. (No, we have to glorify Kṛṣṇa's holy name.)

Dr. Patel: Krishna bolo magar gussa mat karo. (Take Kṛṣṇa's name but don't get angry.)

Prabhupāda: Kirtaniyah sada harih. Krishna ka naam sab samay bolo. Ta aap log hum log ko thoda sahay kjiye Krishna naam prachar karne ke liye. (Kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ. Kṛṣṇa's name should be taken continuously. So all of you can kindly help me in spreading the holy name of Kṛṣṇa.) That is real Vedānta. And the Vedānta says also . . . if you actually read Vedānta, what is the beginning of Vedānta? Boliye? (Tell me?) What is the beginning?

Dr. Patel: Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1).

Prabhupāda: This is not Vedānta. This is Īśopaniṣad.

Devotee: Janmādy asya yataḥ.

Prabhupāda: Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). Athāto brahma jijñāsā. This is Vedānta. Yes. That is Vedānta, Brahma-sūtra. This is Vedānta. So this life is meant for Vedānta. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. And what is Brahman? Janmādy asya yataḥ. Brahman means the Supreme Soul of everything. And Kṛṣṇa replies, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ (BG 10.8). Then Vedānta starts. I'm inquiring what is the ultimate source of everything, and here is the answer. If you don't believe, that is another thing. You go on talking like anything. That is another thing. But answer is there. Aham ādir hi devānām (BG 10.2). Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate (BG 10.8). Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ (BG 7.19). So we have to go to such mahātmā who knows vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti. Then it will be all right. But if we want to waste time, that is another thing.

So I am very glad to see you. So I wish that you may spread real Vedānta. That is essence of Vedas. Vedānta means essence of Vedas. Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyaḥ (BG 15.15). Light is . . . of course there is light in the sunshine and there is light in the sun globe, but the source of light is coming from the sun-god. Just like electric bulb, thousand power. So the illumination is also light, and the source of illumination, the bulb, that is also light. And what is that? Filament within? That is also light. But what is the anta light? Not this illumination. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa is the original source of light. Yasya prabhā prabhavataḥ (BS 5.40). It is confirmed in the Brahma-saṁhitā. So Brahman knowledge is partial Kṛṣṇa knowledge. Paramātmā knowledge, partial Kṛṣṇa knowledge. And Kṛṣṇa knowledge is perfect. So partial knowledge is also knowledge, but Vedānta means full knowledge. So unless you come to that point, it is not Vedānta. The another example is just like from a distant place you see one mountain. You'll see just like something cloud. It is not cloud; it is the mountain. But because you are seeing from a distant place you see it is something cloud. If you go little further, you'll see something green, and when you actually go to the mountain you'll find so many trees, so many living entities, so many everything full of varieties. The same mountain, absolute knowledge, advaya-jñāna, tattva-jñāna. If we accept tattva-jñāna from distant place it is Brahman. If you see that tattva-jñāna still nearer, then it is Paramātmā. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna (BG 18.61). And when you go directly to the person, just like we are talking face to . . . that is possibility. And that possibility Kṛṣṇa comes to show us.

That is indicated by Śukadeva Gosvāmī that:

itthaṁ brahma-sukhānubhūtyā
dāsyaṁ gatānāṁ para-daivatena
māyāśritānāṁ nara-dārakeṇa
sākaṁ vijahruḥ kṛta-puṇya-puñjāḥ
(SB 10.12.11)

When Kṛṣṇa was playing with His cowherd boys friend, so Śukadeva Gosvāmī says: "Who are these boys who are playing with Kṛṣṇa, who is the source of brahma-sukha?" Brahma-sukhānubhūtyā. These boys are playing with another boy known as Kṛṣṇa. He is the source of brahma-sukhānubhūti. And dāsyaṁ gatānāṁ para-daivatena: those who are devotees, for them He is the Supreme Lord. And māyāśritānāṁ nara-dārakeṇa: and those who are under the influence of māyā, they are seeing He's an ordinary boy. But whatever He may be, these boys who are playing with Him, sākaṁ vijahruḥ kṛta-puṇya-puñjāḥ (SB 10.12.11). After many, many lives' acquisition of pious activities, now he has got this opportunity to play with this boy, the source of brahma-sukha. Itthaṁ brahma-sukhānubhūtyā. They are not playing with ordinary child. He is the source of brahma-sukha. This is the statement of Śukadeva Gosvāmī.

So if we come to Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa is personally presenting Himself, that is Vedānta. Otherwise, bahūnāṁ janmanām . . . we have come to that point, but if we neglect, then it will take many, many births to come to that point. Because that is the ultimate. Unless we come to that point, to understand Kṛṣṇa, there is still scarcity of knowledge. And Kṛṣṇa says that, "When there is scarcity of knowledge, then I appear." Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata (BG 4.7). When the scarcity of knowledge is polluted . . . not only scarcity, but it is polluted, glāniḥ. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glāniḥ. This is dharma, to come to the perfect knowledge. Human being must come to the perfect knowledge, because this is a boon. Not the cats and dogs can understand. Human being. So when there is glāniḥ, they are accepting the preliminary beginning of knowledge as the perfect knowledge, that is glāniḥ. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata (BG 4.7). Paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca . . . (BG 4.8). These things are there. Dharma-saṁsthāpanārthāya: to establish real religious system. Sambhavāmi yuge yuge. What is that real religious system? Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam (BG 18.66).

Dr. Patel: Bhāgavata-dharma.

Prabhupāda: No, this is real dharma. Bhāgavata-dharma is real, Bhagavān. Bhāgavata-dharma means in a relationship with Bhagavān. So if you do not know Bhagavān, then what is this knowledge? That is the defect. All dharmas—there may be Christian dharma, Hindu dharma, this dharma, that dharma—ask any one of them, "Do you know Bhagavān?" "Zero. Nirākāra." Nirākāra means zero. When you come to the right point: zero. No substance. Therefore they have got this prayer, nirviśeṣa-śūnyavādi-pāścātya-deśa-tāriṇe. This is going on. Śūnyavādi and nirviśeṣa, nirākāravādi. We say . . . there are so many points. We say that, "The supreme father," the Christians say. So how the supreme father can be nirākāra? We have got experience, my father has ākāra. His father has got ākāra, his father has got ākāra. So if you go to the supreme father, now how He is nirākāra? I may not have seen my great-grandfather but that does not mean he's nirākāra. So I may not have seen God but if God is supreme father, how He can be nirākāra? Boliye apka isme koi bolne ka ho to boliye? (So, do you have anything to say on this?)

Guest (2): Lord Jesus Christ, the son of God, he's a person. His father must be person.

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is common sense. If son of God, if the son has form, how the father hasn't got form? What do you say? I'm asking you, this English boy. How the father can be formless? Christ says that he's the son of God. Is it not?

English devotee: He said he was, yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But he's a person. So how the father is imperson? What kind of father?

Dr. Patel: Sir, instead of calling person, we say he's an individual. Person means this body.

Prabhupāda: Person means individual.

Dr. Patel: Individual. So God is an individual then?

Prabhupāda: No, person. God is a person. Individual means person, individual person.

Dr. Patel: They may think person means body.

Prabhupāda: Body or no body, that is separate thing. But when you say "individual," He is a person. And it is explained also in the Bhagavad . . . kleśo 'dhikataras teṣām avyaktāsakta-cetasām (BG 12.5). Those who are inclined to the impersonal feature . . . God has got that impersonal feature. So they have to undergo more troubles to understand Him. And after going through troublesome business, bahūnāṁ janmanām, many, many births, then he understands, "Oh, vāsudevaḥ sarvam . . . here is the person." Everywhere this disease is very prominent, that God is impersonal. Perhaps this is the only movement in the world that's preaching, "No, God is person."

Dr. Patel: All Vaiṣṇavas believe in the personal God. This is only one . . . (indistinct) . . . preach.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Bring some prasāda. Distribute. (break)

Guest (5): . . . camp. Let your group come and stay in our camp.

Prabhupāda: No, no, we have already organized. We have also a organized camp. No, I would have saved this expenditure by joining your camp, but . . .

Guest (4): There is no question of expenditure. We welcome you and your institution over there. We have an arrangement for about two hundred tents, and we have got enough food to offer you, quality food, which you won't find in the whole of the Kumbha-melā. Because originally . . .

Prabhupāda: But suppose if we speak in this way, then you'll not agree. (laughter) Real food is finished. Only purīs, kachorīs . . . (laughter)

Guest (4): We'll have more real food when you come over there.

Prabhupāda: No, if you do not object our preaching like that, then I can go.

Guest (4): Yes, definitely.

Prabhupāda: Whether your Swāmījī will like that?

Guest (4): No, of course. Because actually there is nothing against your preaching. Otherwise, I would not have come.

Prabhupāda: No, this is a contradictory. We say God is person, and you say nirākāra. That is the difference. Why God should be nirākāra?

Guest (4): Ultimately, it is the . . .

Prabhupāda: Ultimately, you say nirākāra. We say ultimately ākāra. And that is the difference, gulf of difference. That is going on. We shall worship Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa there, with our ārati, just like we are doing in the temple. Perhaps your Swāmījī will not like this. And as soon as there is some contradiction . . .

Guest (4): No. Our main theme at the Kumbha-melā is to speak direct to sādhus who come from Himalayas, because mainly since 150 years this institution is serving them at Hardwar and Prayaga. They don't walk down to Ujjain or Nasik. Mainly they come at Hardwar and Allahabad.

Prabhupāda: So if you kindly give us a camp. But we shall preach this.

Guest (4): You are at liberty. There is no ban on it. Actually, you see we, as we said, we are serving the humanity directly.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. That all right. Nice. But sometimes, if somebody differs, that is not very palatable.

Guest (4): No, no, Swāmījī. There is no . . . we welcome you there. I told Mangala when she came that we are not preaching a particular thing. We are going there to serve the people who come who are intellectual.

Prabhupāda: For spiritual enlightenment. That's nice.

Guest (4): Yes. And practically since many, many years our camp is considered as one of the best from all point of view—hygienic arrangements, food quality. We don't use dalda or anything. We have the pure ghee. There are people who give with heart.

Prabhupāda: Suppose if you give us one camp, so how many men we can provide there?

Guest (4): At least 50 to 100 people we can accommodate.

Prabhupāda: No.

Guest (4): Or if you want more . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no. Our men will not be fifty to so much. Suppose for us, if you spare one camp, so how many men we can accommodate there? Because . . .

Guest (4): In one tent at least we can accommodate six people. Easily. With a drawing room and two bedrooms. We have the military tents. And just on the bed of the river.

Prabhupāda: So how many men you are expecting?

Girirāja: Fourteen.

Prabhupāda: Fourteen. (break)

Dr. Patel: . . . you can serve how many people?

Guest (4): Each tent we'll accommodate with all sanitary conditions. We have in one tent, which is quite a big one, six people easily. With a drawing and two beds.

Prabhupāda: So at least three camps we shall require.

Guest (4): Three or five. Whatever. Swāmījī, number is immaterial.

Prabhupāda: Ācchā. So why don't you do that?

Dr. Patel: One for yourself and three to us. So four.

Guest (4): I can even reserve for your institution six, eight, ten. Number is immaterial.

Prabhupāda: Then why don't you take?

Dr. Patel: That is very good. Five reserve karo. Apan . . . (Reserve five tents for us . . .)

Guest (4): Number is immaterial. We have the special boats plying from our camp, because what our principle is, our Gurudev, Paramahamsa devji had taught us . . . away from the melā, in seclusion. Now there is a bhāga, what is known as a yushi-bhāga, and since last two hundred years all the director sādhus, they reside there because it is away from . . .

Prabhupāda: Munshi-bhāga that is . . .

Guest (4): Yushi. Yushi. So as it is away from melā, there is no hustle and bustle of the melā. It's a secluded place. And from there we ply our own boats. We have about six, eight boats that take you for snāna. In the early morning at four o'clock we have the snāna in the Ganges itself near our camp, because . . .

Prabhupāda: Confluence, confluence.

Guest (4): On the spot. We are in the bed of the river, and this plot is reserved since last two hundred years for us from the government when the melā comes— Pūrṇa-kumbha, Ardha-kumbha. And the boats ply from our spot downstream at Prayaga on the saṅgam. That we take them during the day according to the nakṣatra.

Prabhupāda: These gentlemen offering, why not take advantage?

Guru dāsa: If it's away from the melā there won't be so much preaching there.

Guest (4): People will come to you when they know that you are there. There is no need to go. (laughter)

Guest (5): You can still have a small place in melā itself.

Guest (4): That publicity will go like this. Don't worry about it. When the sun shines nobody says that the sun has risen. It has risen.

Guru dāsa: Vedāntists say, but no one else . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no, that's all right. So you take advantage of it. (everyone talking at once) Now is offering, you should . . . so immediately arrange for this. So Thik hai. Hum log ko dijiye kuch camp. (Okay. So please give us a few tents.)

Guest (4): I'll telephone today and we'll make the arrangement at least for five to six, seven tents.

Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. Then it will be very nice. We are willing to go there. And we must go there. It is Kumbha-melā. So if you give us five to six camps it will be very nice.

Guest (4): Even up to ten. You don't hesitate for the number.

Prabhupāda: Thank you. He's so liberal. You are actually Brahman. (laughter) Brahman means unlimited.

Guest (4): Virāṭ.

Prabhupāda: Virāṭ. Bṛhatyad, bṛnghanatya iti brahman. Not only the largest, but increasing. That is Brahman. Bṛhatya bṛnghanatya. I'm very much thankful to you. So you arrange immediately. To phir iske liye jo kuch karna hai bol dijiye. (Please inform us about any formalities involved.)

Guest (4): I will send a message today, and you will let me know the date. They will come and receive you either at the Benares airport or here at Allahabad station. Because it's not far away from Allahabad.

Prabhupāda: Yes, I know. I was in Allahabad for thirteen years.

Guest (4): I know.

Prabhupāda: Yes. This Kumbha-melā we have every year.

Guest (4): First of all, you see, we have taken just near Yamunā bridge. As soon as the pilgrims come from various parts of the country we have got a . . .

Prabhupāda: Yamunā bridge, there are two bridges.

Guest (4): Just near Yamunā bridge there is an institution which belongs to Bombay, and that institution is reserved for us just to give a shelter first to people who come by rail.

Prabhupāda: So take all these notes. We'll save so much money.

Guest (4): Transit camp.

Prabhupāda: So immediately.

Guest (4): I'll come again, don't worry.

Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. Now, distribute prasāda.

Guest (4): Actually, you know, Swāmījī, I had stayed over here whenever he used to come. He passed away in 1960.

Prabhupāda: Who?

Guest (4): Our Swāmījī. He passed away at . . . (indistinct) . . . in 1960, 14th February. And he was very fond of Juhu since 1923, whenever he was coming to Bombay.

Prabhupāda: Juhu is very nice, I know.

Guest (4): But now the Juhu has lost its charm. I'm talking about 1923 up to '45. And he used to go deep in the sea up to two miles. He used to take us with him.

Prabhupāda: That, one saintly person . . . what is his name?

Guest (4): He was a Punjabi body. And mostly he resided in Gujarat. Developed five of his institutions. One in Ooty and two on Narmada and Tapti, and one is near Deoghar in Bihar.

Prabhupāda: Bihar. Deoghar.

Guest (4): Yes. One we have got in Hardwar itself. We have got a nice āśrama at Sapta Sarovara. I'll just show you one of his . . . because Juhu, whenever he was in Bombay he was at Juhu always. (indistinct comments by others) (break) He was residing at M. C. Satwar, you know, our Attorney General.

Prabhupāda: He's Sindhi?

Guest (4): Punjabi.

Dr. Patel: He lived for 130 years.

Prabhupāda: He's still living?

Dr. Patel: No, he died only five years back.

Guest (4): 1960. This must be one of . . . there was a crowd, you know, at M. C. Satwar's hall. M. C. Satwar had invited everybody from the high court, all the judges. So he was just having a chant with them. So "Swāmījī, we would like to hear you, something." He said: "I am an uneducated man. What can I say?" This was in 1956, just four years before he passed away. Then he was thinking what to tell these guys. Was just thinking for five, ten minutes. And then he spoke for two hours, spellbound. Beautiful. He was about 6 foot 4 inches in height.

Prabhupāda: Real Punjabi. (laughter)

Guest (4): And the color of his skin was as pink as the petal of the rose. He was a dynamic personality also. And the command over the language was superb. Just Your Holiness is quoting the Sanskrit quotations, just like Swami Gangeshvarananda, though he's a blind man. But you . . . he can quote from any chapter, any stanza, any couplet. He's also here at present. He's coming over there.

Prabhupāda: No, he's my good friend.

Guest (4): Yes. We had a word about you with him long back. Before, Swāmījī, Your Holiness came to India.

Prabhupāda: He likes me. (laughter)

Guest (4): Yes.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break)

Guest (6): She is my daughter-in-law.

Prabhupāda: Ācchā. He's your son?

Guest (6): He's my son. He has just come day before from London to . . .

Prabhupāda: You live in London?

Guest (6): No, he's studying. He's an executive with the German company over there via India, this German firm. And she is my daughter. And since . . .

Prabhupāda: Khub sukhi raho. Krishna naam karo. (Everyone be happy and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.) Everyone be happy and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is our . . . a good family. (break)

Guest (6): So his friend is my friend. (everyone talking at once) Swāmījī says, he gave a good comparison about the bulbs. Some bulbs have forty candles, some have twenty-five, some a thousand.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Jaya. So where is our Guru Mahārāja?

Devotee: Guru dāsa Swami?

Prabhupāda: He went away?

Guest (4): So I'll see them again.

Prabhupāda: All right, thank you. (break)

Guest (4): We'll arrange for the best that we could.

Prabhupāda: That's nice. Thank you very much.

Guest (4): Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya.

(break) Ap kidhar ke rehne wale ho? Oh apni bangali. (Where do you live? Oh you are a Bengali.)

Guest (7): Na bangali noi, Bengal e chilo. Oi khane ghar. Ekhon ektu . . . (indistinct) . . . jani na ki, ektu treatment nite eshechi ekhane, Ahmedabad e. (No, I am not a Bengali but I used to live in Bengal in my own house. Now I have come to Ahmedabad for some treatment.)

Prabhupāda: Bangla besh bhalo bolen. (You can speak Bengali very nicely.) Speaks Bengali very nice.

Guest (7): Yes, he lived in Shanti Niketan four years . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: So give him shelter. (end)